Seanchan and the AoL

[Suttree]

If one wants to argue that they stumped him by winning the Trolloc Wars, I will concede that (even though he did quite enough damage to be going on with), but what about the Seanchan, Hawkwing's death, and the Black Ajah?

 

Wait what? The Seanchan, Hawkwings death and the BA were all Ishy. He brags of sealing "two dooms" by sending Luthair across the ocean and before he came along AS held positions of power within his governement. Things didn't go south until Ishy poisoned him against AS and the only reason he died was because he refused healing on the advice of a forsaken! I do agree however that there refusal to look at certain topics is a major knock against the institution which I have aknowledged as failed.

 

So when it serves the light it is a direct result of the greatness of AS, but when it is petty or evil it is solely that AS working alone and not due to the corruptness of the White Tower?

 

 

 

exactly. How can you say it's a benign force in its entirety when you have two camps vying for control over Rand in two different ways. Not only that, the first two letters he receives from the WT are from Elaida and Alviarin. Alviarin is a DF, isn't she. So three different camps vying to control Rand. They are not a benign force. They are a mixed bag. AND, it's my Opinion that this was something Mr Jordan wanted to make clear.

 

Whoa whoa whoa. Don't try and turn this around. You both were saying exactly what you are accusing me off. The facts are the facts. Tetsuan acted alone out of jealousy and was stilled for it in this instance. I have been saying all along you have to take the good with the bad. You said that is the only instance the AS could take 100% credit for which is of course laughable.

 

@MWV

Yes Mabriam who founded the 10 Nations compact was an AS and many of the other Queens were as well. Read up on Rashima btw. She really is a fascinating character.

http://wot.wikia.com...shima_Kerenmosa

 

@thisguy

The only way you can possibly hold up the argument that AS have done as much bad as good is if you count the Forsaken and BA as AS. That is of course patently absurd and no measured debate would except that as being true. There has never been a point on any of the WoT communities where that has been accepted as teh case. When someone goes over to the shadow they are part of a new organization, they cease to be AS. I guess you are condemning all power users at this point because they have the potential to do evil just like the Seanchan would? Lastly please show me anywhere I mentioned AS are all good. Repeatedly I have said they failed and have both good and bad members.

 

You say that they fight the shadow. Myself I think most of them ignore it if they can,

 

Please provide one shred of evidnce showing that is the case. This is the exactly the type of hyperbole that sidetracks the discussion.

 

Just read the part where after Egwene tricks the Sitters into giving her sole power towards talking to the Monarchs. This is after the Tower was almost destroyed, after Elaida, the mass execution of the Black Ajah, after they know the last battle is coming. Yet they still try to plot, sneak and manoeuvre for their own gain. And you think they are not petty? when the women they make their leaders do stuff like that?...

 

Errmm this was done so she could be sure she had sole authority to deal with Rand. Because she views him as Rand not the DR and he "can be trusted with the world". It wasn't for some personnel power grab or petty gain. It was a brilliant move that comes on the heels of numerous reforms changing the WT for the better. She has already doen more to change the culture than just about any other Amrylin(which admittedly isn't saying much).

 

I think that the good ones are the ones that avoid the tower to actually do some good in the world rather than deal with the inter-tower politics.

 

I just dont see them working for the worlds good. I see them working for what they think is best. Whether for them or everyone else. But the very fact that they place the WT and peoples views on the WT as more important than almost anything means that they cannot and will not work for the greater good.

 

Yes I agree that their version of fighting the shadow and working for good is what "they think is best". I mentioned that in the first post, you can't fault their intentions in facing the shadow. Now whether they are best suited to do so, or have gone about it the right way, once again is a whole different discussion. I don't think anyone would argue the institution has been a success. They have however, for good or bad been the major force for the light that held the shadow at bay. This has set up events so there at least is a chance at long term survival after guiding the world out of the breaking, saving it in the trolloc wars, and setting up events so the DR was born and lived to face the DO.

[thisguy]

If one wants to argue that they stumped him by winning the Trolloc Wars, I will concede that (even though he did quite enough damage to be going on with), but what about the Seanchan, Hawkwing's death, and the Black Ajah?

 

Wait what? The Seanchan, Hawkwings death amdthe BA were all Ishy. He brags of sealing "two dooms" by sending Luthair across the ocean and before he came along AS held positions of power within his governement. Things didn't go south until Ishy poisened him against AS and the only reason he died was because he refused healing on the advice of a forsaken! I do agree however that there refusal to look at certain topics is a major knock against the institution which I have aknowledged as failed.

 

So when it serves the light it is a direct result of the greatness of AS, but when it is petty or evil it is solely that AS working alone and not due to the corruptness of the White Tower?

 

 

 

exactly. How can you say it's a benign force in its entirety when you have two camps vying for control over Rand in two different ways. Not only that, the first two letters he receives from the WT are from Elaida and Alviarin. Alviarin is a DF, isn't she. So three different camps vying to control Rand. They are not a benign force. They are a mixed bag. AND, it's my Opinion that this was something Mr Jordan wanted to make clear.

 

Whoa whoa whoa. Don't try and turn this around. You both were saying exactly what you are accusing me off. The facts are the facts. Tetsuan acted alone out of jealousy and was stilled for it in this instance. I have been saying all along you have to take the good with the bad. You said that is the only instance the AS could take 100% credit for which is of course laughable.

 

@MWV

Yes Mabriam who founded the 10 Nations compact was an AS and many of the other Queens were as well. Read up on Rashima btw. She really is a fascinating character.

http://wot.wikia.com...shima_Kerenmosa

 

@thisguy

The only way you can possibly hold up the argument that AS have done as much bad as good is if you count the Forsaken and BA as AS. That is of course patently absurd and no measured debate would except that as being true. There has never been a point on any of the WoT communities where that has been accepted as teh case. When someone goes over to the shadow they are part of a new organization, they cease to be AS. I guess you are condemning all power users at this point because they have the potential to do evil just like the Seanchan would?

But they are AS. It is not patently absurd. Why call them the black ajah if they weren't. They were doing work for the Tower and subverting it for the dark one.

No, I do not consider wise ones (with the power) or the kin AS. However, if a member of the kin is a DF she is still part of the Kin. Same as the AS, same as the wise ones. Mat's maiden girlfriend was a maiden and a df. Same with the AS.

[Morden]

I think your right that they are no longer Aes Sedai, because they see themselves as servants of the dark one, rather than servants of all. Not to mention they think they are chosen. the Black Ajah is a bit different as they are technically Aes Sedai, because they still hold up the pretense of being Aes Sedai, they just see themselves as the 8th Ajah In the same way that Soldiers who are Darkfiends are no longer loyal to their lords/ladies.

 

Yes they have done a lot of good, but as a whole even the good ones have ego's the size of dragonmount. Take a look at Cadsuaine or even Moiraine. Just because they do good does not remove the fact that the majority of Aes Sedai have a god complex. That is a serious failing on the part of the tower and reeks of the corruption which has crippled the tower.

 

Look at Cadsuane, the other sisters see her as a legend, yet she is one of the few who actually act and do what Aes Sedai are meant to do. Even she is dissapointed with the current Aes Sedai. She see's them as week failures. Yet even she expects everyone to bow down to her and comply, do exactly as she wishes, In a way she is one of the few who has the right to be treated as such, because she actually does what she is meant to do rather than living off of the legend and mystique of others.

 

 

I see Aes Sedai in a sense like a tower of Monarchs who share no blood connection. Because their forefathers were so great they expect to be obeyed and treated with respect, without having earnt it.

 

From the sisters we've seen in the books, there are perhaps a dozen or so who are not simply power hungry old biddies with overly inflated ego's, not as bad as the wind finders in a sense.

 

Aes Sedai were legends when they were servants. as soon as they decided to become the masters they failed. the one power should not be used as a cudgel to make people do as you say, and they should not think they have the right to manipulate anyone they chose. That is what seperates the Wise Ones and makes them better. The Wise Ones have less to do with power in Saidar, and more to do with the good of their people. The Wise Ones will manipulate and brow beat whoever gets in their way, but they are not petty merely single minded and stubborn.

 

 

If the Aes Sedai really put their minds to it, they could have done so much more damage to the shadow, they were the one force really capable of organising every nation against the shadow. But because of how much everyone distrusts them, they cannot do that. They are to blame for that hate and distrust, even if the Forsaken had a hand in manipulating them into it. the fact that they were open to such manipulation says a lot.

 

Power corrupts...

[thisguy]

I think your right that they are no longer Aes Sedai, because they see themselves as servants of the dark one, rather than servants of all. Not to mention they think they are chosen. the Black Ajah is a bit different as they are technically Aes Sedai, because they still hold up the pretense of being Aes Sedai, they just see themselves as the 8th Ajah In the same way that Soldiers who are Darkfiends are no longer loyal to their lords/ladies.

 

Yes they have done a lot of good, but as a whole even the good ones have ego's the size of dragonmount. Take a look at Cadsuaine or even Moiraine. Just because they do good does not remove the fact that the majority of Aes Sedai have a god complex. That is a serious failing on the part of the tower and reeks of the corruption which has crippled the tower.

 

Look at Cadsuane, the other sisters see her as a legend, yet she is one of the few who actually act and do what Aes Sedai are meant to do. Even she is dissapointed with the current Aes Sedai. She see's them as week failures. Yet even she expects everyone to bow down to her and comply, do exactly as she wishes, In a way she is one of the few who has the right to be treated as such, because she actually does what she is meant to do rather than living off of the legend and mystique of others.

 

Power corrupts...

 

I agree to a degree. Although, Moiraine wants so much to do good for Rand that she swallows her pride and swears herself to him. I found that to be one of the biggest reasons why I loved her character. The others don't even KNOW with the certainty that she did of what would work best and they expect everyone to bend to their will. She bent to his to do the right thing. She's an exemplary Aes Sedai.

[Suttree]

But they are AS. It is not patently absurd. Why call them the black ajah if they weren't. They were doing work for the Tower and subverting it for the dark one.

No, I do not consider wise ones (with the power) or the kin AS. However, if a member of the kin is a DF she is still part of the Kin. Same as the AS, same as the wise ones. Mat's maiden girlfriend was a maiden and a df. Same with the AS.

 

If you want to be technical then yes they can still be called AS. What is not, and has never been accepted in the fandom is that the actions of the forsaken and ba count towards all AS and the WT when balancing their ledger. The second they turned from the light they and swore to the DO they cease to count in that regards.

 

I agree to a degree. Although, Moiraine wants so much to do good for Rand that she swallows her pride and swears herself to him. I found that to be one of the biggest reasons why I loved her character. The others don't even KNOW with the certainty that she did of what would work best and they expect everyone to bend to their will. She bent to his to do the right thing. She's an exemplary Aes Sedai.

 

Yet you knock Cads who did the same an arguably did more for him than Moir did. Moir's method of handling Rand would never have been sufficient to snap him out of his Dark Rand persona.

 

WH

Cadsuane drew a deep breath. She had promised the boy that whatever she did would be for his good, not the good of the Tower or anyone else's, and now she had broken a good woman for his good. "I am very sorry, Aleis," she said. You are building up a large account already, boy, she thought.

 

If the Aes Sedai really put their minds to it, they could have done so much more damage to the shadow, they were the one force really capable of organising every nation against the shadow. But because of how much everyone distrusts them, they cannot do that. They are to blame for that hate and distrust, even if the Forsaken had a hand in manipulating them into it. the fact that they were open to such manipulation says a lot.

 

Power corrupts...

 

Agree to a point. It was said that the Amnrylin could even summon the Lord Captain Commander of the Children and he would come. In addition they have unified the world many times in the face of different threats. There isn't realistically a nation in Randland pre Seanchan that wouldn't have marshalled to face the Shadow with the WT. Regardles much of what you say is true. Hoping that post TG with the men and women together Eggy continues with the significant reforms(co-leading with Logain) and the WT can get back closer to it's true purpose.

[Morden]

I think your right that they are no longer Aes Sedai, because they see themselves as servants of the dark one, rather than servants of all. Not to mention they think they are chosen. the Black Ajah is a bit different as they are technically Aes Sedai, because they still hold up the pretense of being Aes Sedai, they just see themselves as the 8th Ajah In the same way that Soldiers who are Darkfiends are no longer loyal to their lords/ladies.

 

Yes they have done a lot of good, but as a whole even the good ones have ego's the size of dragonmount. Take a look at Cadsuaine or even Moiraine. Just because they do good does not remove the fact that the majority of Aes Sedai have a god complex. That is a serious failing on the part of the tower and reeks of the corruption which has crippled the tower.

 

Look at Cadsuane, the other sisters see her as a legend, yet she is one of the few who actually act and do what Aes Sedai are meant to do. Even she is dissapointed with the current Aes Sedai. She see's them as week failures. Yet even she expects everyone to bow down to her and comply, do exactly as she wishes, In a way she is one of the few who has the right to be treated as such, because she actually does what she is meant to do rather than living off of the legend and mystique of others.

 

Power corrupts...

 

I agree to a degree. Although, Moiraine wants so much to do good for Rand that she swallows her pride and swears herself to him. I found that to be one of the biggest reasons why I loved her character. The others don't even KNOW with the certainty that she did of what would work best and they expect everyone to bend to their will. She bent to his to do the right thing. She's an exemplary Aes Sedai.

 

She came to that after trying to control him for so long. She changed when she went into the Ter'angrael in Tear and realised that she didnt have long left, the less time she had the more frantic she became until she eventually stopped trying to control him. She realised she was wrong. Before that she was no different, she expected him to comply and he would not, which was why they had so much trouble.

 

She changed and that is what makes her such an amazing character. To me the only other Aes Sedai who compares is Nyneave, she thinks she is right, but she is willing to listen and to simply give advice. Rather than try to take control. it took them both time to get to that point, but when they did it was pivital.

[thisguy]

But they are AS. It is not patently absurd. Why call them the black ajah if they weren't. They were doing work for the Tower and subverting it for the dark one.

No, I do not consider wise ones (with the power) or the kin AS. However, if a member of the kin is a DF she is still part of the Kin. Same as the AS, same as the wise ones. Mat's maiden girlfriend was a maiden and a df. Same with the AS.

 

If you want to be technical then yes they can still be called AS. What is not, and has never been accepted in the fandom is that the actions of the forsaken and ba count towards all AS and the WT when balancing their ledger. The second they turned from the light they and swore to the DO they cease to count in that regards.

 

I agree to a degree. Although, Moiraine wants so much to do good for Rand that she swallows her pride and swears herself to him. I found that to be one of the biggest reasons why I loved her character. The others don't even KNOW with the certainty that she did of what would work best and they expect everyone to bend to their will. She bent to his to do the right thing. She's an exemplary Aes Sedai.

 

Yet you knock Cads who did the same an arguably did more for him than Moir did...

 

WH

Cadsuane drew a deep breath. She had promised the boy that whatever she did would be for his good, not the good of the Tower or anyone else's, and now she had broken a good woman for his good. "I am very sorry, Aleis," she said. You are building up a large account already, boy, she thought.

Well, especially with the Black Ajah - they are trained by the tower, the work for the tower, they do what the tower tells them and what the DO tells them, people looking at them would think they're AS and not because they're wearing a disguise.

 

I kinda like that. I, again personally, believe RJ did this to make sure that good and bad weren't so cut and dry.

 

As I said, I don't remember a lot of Cads but from what I do, I just thought she was pushy and, at best, clumsy in how she dealt with Rand. There was too much of that - OMG! She Cadsuane, everything she does must be right! crap for me. Sorry.

[thisguy]

I think your right that they are no longer Aes Sedai, because they see themselves as servants of the dark one, rather than servants of all. Not to mention they think they are chosen. the Black Ajah is a bit different as they are technically Aes Sedai, because they still hold up the pretense of being Aes Sedai, they just see themselves as the 8th Ajah In the same way that Soldiers who are Darkfiends are no longer loyal to their lords/ladies.

 

Yes they have done a lot of good, but as a whole even the good ones have ego's the size of dragonmount. Take a look at Cadsuaine or even Moiraine. Just because they do good does not remove the fact that the majority of Aes Sedai have a god complex. That is a serious failing on the part of the tower and reeks of the corruption which has crippled the tower.

 

Look at Cadsuane, the other sisters see her as a legend, yet she is one of the few who actually act and do what Aes Sedai are meant to do. Even she is dissapointed with the current Aes Sedai. She see's them as week failures. Yet even she expects everyone to bow down to her and comply, do exactly as she wishes, In a way she is one of the few who has the right to be treated as such, because she actually does what she is meant to do rather than living off of the legend and mystique of others.

 

Power corrupts...

 

I agree to a degree. Although, Moiraine wants so much to do good for Rand that she swallows her pride and swears herself to him. I found that to be one of the biggest reasons why I loved her character. The others don't even KNOW with the certainty that she did of what would work best and they expect everyone to bend to their will. She bent to his to do the right thing. She's an exemplary Aes Sedai.

 

She came to that after trying to control him for so long. She changed when she went into the Ter'angrael in Tear and realised that she didnt have long left, the less time she had the more frantic she became until she eventually stopped trying to control him. She realised she was wrong. Before that she was no different, she expected him to comply and he would not, which was why they had so much trouble.

 

She changed and that is what makes her such an amazing character. To me the only other Aes Sedai who compares is Nyneave, she thinks she is right, but she is willing to listen and to simply give advice. Rather than try to take control. it took them both time to get to that point, but when they did it was pivital.

 

I'm not disagreeing. In fact, I said without as much knowledge as he has - or however I framed it.

She swore to him around the Jangtai (sp) pass. she bent her head more than almost any other Aes Sedai. And, for all her manipulating, she really never mistreated the boys. Ever. She didn't even manipulate them that much, just didn't tell them everything.

[holiday]

Wait what? The Seanchan, Hawkwings death and the BA were all Ishy. He brags of sealing "two dooms" by sending Luthair across the ocean and before he came along AS held positions of power within his governement. Things didn't go south until Ishy poisoned him against AS and the only reason he died was because he refused healing on the advice of a forsaken! I do agree however that there refusal to look at certain topics is a major knock against the institution which I have aknowledged as failed.

I know it was Ishamael. What I'm saying is that the White Tower, the leading force against the Shadow, deserves to be called to account for 1) not realizing that Ishamael was behind Hawkwing's downfall and Luthair's trip and 2) not stopping him. Great successes come with great failures, and the success of keeping civilization alive for 3000 years sits rit alongside the massive failure of not noticing that the leader of the Forsaken was active in the world.

[Suttree]

Wait what? The Seanchan, Hawkwings death and the BA were all Ishy. He brags of sealing "two dooms" by sending Luthair across the ocean and before he came along AS held positions of power within his governement. Things didn't go south until Ishy poisoned him against AS and the only reason he died was because he refused healing on the advice of a forsaken! I do agree however that there refusal to look at certain topics is a major knock against the institution which I have aknowledged as failed.

I know it was Ishamael. What I'm saying is that the White Tower, the leading force against the Shadow, deserves to be called to account for 1) not realizing that Ishamael was behind Hawkwing's downfall and Luthair's trip and 2) not stopping him. Great successes come with great failures, and the success of keeping civilization alive for 3000 years sits rit alongside the massive failure of not noticing that the leader of the Forsaken was active in the world.

 

They were supposed to know that a Forsaken wasn't actually sealed but was being spun out for 40 year periods of time and happened to have Hawkwing's ear? Keep in mind he most likely used compulsion to get him to dismiss all AS from their governor and counselor positions in the empire and forced the decisions to invade other lands. He systematically went about destroying the Empire and I'm not sure what they realistically could have done. I get what you are saying however, they are the ones on watch. Just think it is somehwat unrealistic to expect them to have known or succesfully defended against it.

[thisguy]

This might be a good way for me to explain my position on the AS - there is very little cohesiveness. It's not like they move with one mind except for a few. Most of them seem to be as bad and good as most people in the realm. They're greedy, arrogant, thoughtful, kind, etc. Look at the BA that nyna and the girls followed. There was that one who loved cats. That even stuck out to Nyna. The tower is a mixed bag.

[holiday]

They were supposed to know that a Forsaken wasn't actually sealed but was being spun out for 40 year periods of time and happened to have Hawkwing's ear? Keep in mind he most likely used compulsion to get him to dismiss all AS from their governor and counselor positions in the empire and forced the decisions to invade other lands. He systematically went about destroying the Empire and I'm not sure what they realistically could have done. I get what you are saying however, they are the ones on watch. Just think it is somehwat unrealistic to expect them to have known or succesfully defended against it.

I agree. I wouldn't have expected them to do anything about Ishamael, and it would have been extremely fortuitous for them to even discover that he was unbound. All I was saying, which you get, is that it has to be laid at someone's feet, that someone is the Tower, and it is legitimate to point it out as a failure, since pre-Dragon Reborn, the White Tower is the last line of defense.

 

This raises a question that I've had before, and that is surely fit for an altogether different thread, of how knowledge of the True Power and the Forsaken's access to it gets lost in the Breaking. Surely that's something important enough to be passed down and remembered, and would have gone a long way towards the White Tower realizing that Ishamael was loose.

[Luckers]

I think your right that they are no longer Aes Sedai, because they see themselves as servants of the dark one, rather than servants of all. Not to mention they think they are chosen. the Black Ajah is a bit different as they are technically Aes Sedai, because they still hold up the pretense of being Aes Sedai, they just see themselves as the 8th Ajah In the same way that Soldiers who are Darkfiends are no longer loyal to their lords/ladies.

 

Yes they have done a lot of good, but as a whole even the good ones have ego's the size of dragonmount. Take a look at Cadsuaine or even Moiraine. Just because they do good does not remove the fact that the majority of Aes Sedai have a god complex. That is a serious failing on the part of the tower and reeks of the corruption which has crippled the tower.

 

Look at Cadsuane, the other sisters see her as a legend, yet she is one of the few who actually act and do what Aes Sedai are meant to do. Even she is dissapointed with the current Aes Sedai. She see's them as week failures. Yet even she expects everyone to bow down to her and comply, do exactly as she wishes, In a way she is one of the few who has the right to be treated as such, because she actually does what she is meant to do rather than living off of the legend and mystique of others.

 

Power corrupts...

 

I agree to a degree. Although, Moiraine wants so much to do good for Rand that she swallows her pride and swears herself to him. I found that to be one of the biggest reasons why I loved her character. The others don't even KNOW with the certainty that she did of what would work best and they expect everyone to bend to their will. She bent to his to do the right thing. She's an exemplary Aes Sedai.

 

She came to that after trying to control him for so long. She changed when she went into the Ter'angrael in Tear and realised that she didnt have long left, the less time she had the more frantic she became until she eventually stopped trying to control him. She realised she was wrong. Before that she was no different, she expected him to comply and he would not, which was why they had so much trouble.

 

 

Actually she didn't change. She agreed to do what he said in order to continue attempting to control him. Don't get me wrong, I love Moiraine as much as I love Cadsuane, but let's not confuse ourselves about her motives here. She submitted in order to gain influence--and let's not forget her greatest betrayal of Rand (going behind his back to try and convince the Wise Ones to break the Aiel away from him and not cross the Dragonwall) ocurred AFTER she submitted.

[Maleshub]

Actually she didn't change. She agreed to do what he said in order to continue attempting to control him. Don't get me wrong, I love Moiraine as much as I love Cadsuane, but let's not confuse ourselves about her motives here. She submitted in order to gain influence--and let's not forget her greatest betrayal of Rand (going behind his back to try and convince the Wise Ones to break the Aiel away from him and not cross the Dragonwall) ocurred AFTER she submitted.

 

Rand basically shook the infallible Moiraine to the core. He put her in a washing machine and hit the spin button. And I think the more Rand asserted himself and gained power the more Moiraine grew flustered and desperate. In addition to the example above, which I don't think is betrayal, look at how she handled Thom, Nynaeve, and Elayne in Tear. She tried, and failed, to hold a monopoly on Rand's counsel.

 

Regarding Moiraine's attempt to dissuade the Aiel from following Rand, she was probably under the influence of her own heritage and the history of the Aiel war when Rand was born. She thought the WT would manage to unite the nations against Rand; but the WT was itself in need of someone to unify it.

 

And that comes against the level-headedness and wisdom that she showed in the early going of TGH when she convinced Siuan that Rand needs to be free to fulfill the prophecies. Of course, she tried to make him think he is free and tried to pull the strings towards a misguided plan to have him show up in Illian with the HoV; but it is intentions that count for the sake of this argument.

 

One last thing about Moiraine and Siuan is that they have dedicated their lives to this mission. It is their soul and identity, their purpose. Despite being two of the most capable and adaptable women in Randland, Siuan described them well when she told Min that "old habits are hard to break, and harder for Aes Sedai" (or whatever the exact quote was).

[Luckers]

Rand basically shook the infallible Moiraine to the core. He put her in a washing machine and hit the spin button. And I think the more Rand asserted himself and gained power the more Moiraine grew flustered and desperate.

 

I don't think Moiraine was ever that shook up. Desperate, yes. But never off step. And Rand did not do that to her, knowledge of her impending death did that--she knew she didn't have long left.

 

In addition to the example above, which I don't think is betrayal, look at how she handled Thom, Nynaeve, and Elayne in Tear. She tried, and failed, to hold a monopoly on Rand's counsel.

 

She was his advisor, and she went behind his back to deliberately try and hamstring his plans. That's a clear betrayal of both trust and duty. The Thom thing less so, because at that point she did not yet owe Rand her loyalty, and was free to act as she chose.

 

Just consider it like this--if Cadsuane had done either of those things, what would people say of it?

 

Regarding Moiraine's attempt to dissuade the Aiel from following Rand, she was probably under the influence of her own heritage and the history of the Aiel war when Rand was born. She thought the WT would manage to unite the nations against Rand; but the WT was itself in need of someone to unify it.

 

Oh she was--I never said she didn't have her reasoning, for all that it was stupid given what she knew of the world--the White Tower was to unite what? Arad Domon and Tarabon were in chaos, Illian was in the hands of the Forsaken, Cairhien wracked by civil war and already under Rand's influence in any case. That leaves what--Amadicia would never follow the Tower's guidance, Murandy and Altara are worse than useless, and the Borderlands would do what was needed irrespective. That at most maybe leaves Andor, which in a vacuum could probably have been relied upon again to do what was needed, or had Moiraine more detailed information from Mat was just as compromised whether or not she figured out the truth about Gaebril....

 

This is what the Tower would have brought to the table, and this is what she would have denied Rand 400,000 spears, 6,000 channelers--all loyal in a way that the Wetlands would never be.

 

But yes, she had her cultural arrogance, and its subsequent blindness, but she did have her reasons. Nevertheless, what she did was a betrayal.

 

And that comes against the level-headedness and wisdom that she showed in the early going of TGH when she convinced Siuan that Rand needs to be free to fulfill the prophecies. Of course, she tried to make him think he is free and tried to pull the strings towards a misguided plan to have him show up in Illian with the HoV; but it is intentions that count for the sake of this argument.

 

One last thing about Moiraine and Siuan is that they have dedicated their lives to this mission. It is their soul and identity, their purpose. Despite being two of the most capable and adaptable women in Randland, Siuan described them well when she told Min that "old habits are hard to break, and harder for Aes Sedai" (or whatever the exact quote was).

 

I'm not attacking Moiraine. She is one of my favourite characters and certainly one of the best Aes Sedai in the series--but lets not romanticize her actions. She didn't submit because she realised Rand needed to control his own fate, she submitted because her existing method of controlling him was not working, so she tried something new. Proof that her intention was still control lies in her attempt to dissuade the Aiel behind his back--had the submission been true, she would have simply advised him and let him decide. She didn't.

[csarmi]

No Gitara fortelling sending Tigraine to the waste no Rand. I'll listen to the argument that the pattern would have made it happen a different way but these threads are set up far, far in advance. It's not as if one thing goes wrong and another solution instantly pops up. That isn't how it works.

 

Actually, that's exactly how it works. The pattern has backups, plans within plans within plans. I agree with the rest of your post.

[bustycops1987]

It stands to reason that if Semirhage was able to wipe out the Seanchan court in Seandar, that basically any random Asha'man could be doing with the same thing with more success. Even if they weren't as strong as Semirhage I'm not even entirely sure any Damane could ward against Asha'man gateways or block their channeling so that any random towns, garrisons, etc weren't immediately being leveled by fireballs and lightning bolts.

 

Although besides Semirhage no one else in the series has really shown that kind of ingenuity into realizing how incredibly deadly a weapon traveling is, and no one besides Rand of the Forsaken ever seemed to ward areas to any large degree.

 

But yeah unless there's some major abuse with the fact that Rand or Aes Sedai know way more about the power, I don't really see a way for the Seanchan machine to be stopped unless the fact their Sul'dam can channel shatters the Return and causes major rifts or something in the last book.

[Vardar]

It stands to reason that if Semirhage was able to wipe out the Seanchan court in Seandar, that basically any random Asha'man could be doing with the same thing with more success. Even if they weren't as strong as Semirhage I'm not even entirely sure any Damane could ward against Asha'man gateways or block their channeling so that any random towns, garrisons, etc weren't immediately being leveled by fireballs and lightning bolts.

 

Although besides Semirhage no one else in the series has really shown that kind of ingenuity into realizing how incredibly deadly a weapon traveling is, and no one besides Rand of the Forsaken ever seemed to ward areas to any large degree.

 

But yeah unless there's some major abuse with the fact that Rand or Aes Sedai know way more about the power, I don't really see a way for the Seanchan machine to be stopped unless the fact their Sul'dam can channel shatters the Return and causes major rifts or something in the last book.

 

With the massive influx of channelers in Randland, and Circles (with men and women) the Seachan is bound to lose. The way the Adam work would work against them, in my opinion. They can't form circles, that's a major weakness. RIght now they have the numbers, but Randland has men and well as women, so the numbers would get closer, and circles would mean the Damae can't shield like they can single channelers.

 

Regardless if it came to all out battle, it would rip the earth asunder.

[Vardar]

You can;t lay blame for their actions, not directly, but you can blame the existence of the BA on the AS as a whole. What kinda orginization refuses to believe it can be corrupted, and refuses to try to even find corruption? I mean how long did it take them to figure out the Oath Rod trick once they actually thought about it? Hours? They refused to believe something existed, told the world it can't exist and by proxy, are responsible for the BA, since they refused to cut the cancer out, as it were.

 

Ishy created the BA and targeted the WT because it holds the greatest power in the land. He brags about having Sisters dancing to his strings going back quite a while. We also saw how quickly a Forsaken was able to get around the oath rod so no that doesn't help your point. W/O notes from Verin and Egwene's actions it would have been very difficult to roust them. You can not claim they are responsible for the BA anymore than any nation is for the DF's that inhabit it. It is patently false to say the existence of the BA is their fault for all that a culture that refuses to discuss certain thinsg is inherently flawed.

 

And yet, the Hunters in the tower were already on the road to discovering BA before Verin's notes. Furthermore no one knew about inverting weaves at the time, which is how they beat the oath rod. So, a simple removing of all oaths, reswearing of new ones in a public event, like they did, and problem solved. No it doesn't solve the Forsaken argument, but there were BA well before the forsaken.

 

Darkfriends don't have the oath rod to easily handle things, so a random town doesn't reall equate to this.

[Suttree]

You can;t lay blame for their actions, not directly, but you can blame the existence of the BA on the AS as a whole. What kinda orginization refuses to believe it can be corrupted, and refuses to try to even find corruption? I mean how long did it take them to figure out the Oath Rod trick once they actually thought about it? Hours? They refused to believe something existed, told the world it can't exist and by proxy, are responsible for the BA, since they refused to cut the cancer out, as it were.

 

Ishy created the BA and targeted the WT because it holds the greatest power in the land. He brags about having Sisters dancing to his strings going back quite a while. We also saw how quickly a Forsaken was able to get around the oath rod so no that doesn't help your point. W/O notes from Verin and Egwene's actions it would have been very difficult to roust them. You can not claim they are responsible for the BA anymore than any nation is for the DF's that inhabit it. It is patently false to say the existence of the BA is their fault for all that a culture that refuses to discuss certain thinsg is inherently flawed.

 

And yet, the Hunters in the tower were already on the road to discovering BA before Verin's notes. Furthermore no one knew about inverting weaves at the time, which is how they beat the oath rod. So, a simple removing of all oaths, reswearing of new ones in a public event, like they did, and problem solved. No it doesn't solve the Forsaken argument, but there were BA well before the forsaken.

 

Darkfriends don't have the oath rod to easily handle things, so a random town doesn't reall equate to this.

 

1. How much success were the hunters having?

 

2. You dont believe a forsaken would teach how to do that if their subjects started being discovered. The method was not fool proof by any means.

 

Question, do you hold Lan's father responsible for Lain and Breyan's DF plot to bring down Malkier then? The downfall of the country sits at his feet? All of Malkier's cultural talk of being the first line against the shadow surely blinded them to the fact that these two had the plot in mind. What hubris thinking there could be no DF in their midst ;)The border forts were entirely stripped after all.

 

No Gitara fortelling sending Tigraine to the waste no Rand. I'll listen to the argument that the pattern would have made it happen a different way but these threads are set up far, far in advance. It's not as if one thing goes wrong and another solution instantly pops up. That isn't how it works.

 

Actually, that's exactly how it works. The pattern has backups, plans within plans within plans. I agree with the rest of your post.

 

Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. I should have bolder the "instantly" part of my post. The point was these things take time. Threads set up far in advance placing key players in position. So not it isn't how it works. If Rand goes down another DR doesn't "instantly" pop up in his place.

[Vardar]

1. How much success were the hunters having?

 

2. You dont believe a forsaken would teach how to do that if their subjects started being discovered. The method was not fool proof by any means.

 

Question, do you hold Lan's father responsible for Lain and Breyan's DF plot to bring down Malkier then? The downfall of the country sits at his feet? All of Malkier's cultural talk of being the first line against the shadow surely blinded them to the fact that these two had the plot in mind. The border forts were entirely stripped after all.

 

1) Not too bad considering the constraints they were working under, constraints that allow the BA to exist. The exact constraints that I'm using to blame the tower as a whole for the existence of the BA.

 

2) Which forsaken? Isshy was a male. How the heck was he to teach the females how to do that?

 

3) I'd need more insight. It's really a different situation. Did Lan's father have it at his command to tell those forts not to strip down? Would he be overthrown if he did?

An AS who didn't want to reswear the oaths to prove she's not a DF would instantly be suspected as a DF. What would she have to hide if she wasn't? Again, Eggy's show in her Hall in Exile shows how easy it was. For hundreds of years, thousands, they've sat by and refused to believe in the existence of something that would be simple to prove. How can you not blame them?

 

Who do you blame for slavery? The original slavers? Or the people who continued slavery until they were freed. Just because your father gave you slaves doesn't mean you have to keep them.

 

WT policies allowed and encouraged the BA to exist.

[roocifer]

Wait what? The Seanchan, Hawkwings death and the BA were all Ishy. He brags of sealing "two dooms" by sending Luthair across the ocean and before he came along AS held positions of power within his governement. Things didn't go south until Ishy poisoned him against AS and the only reason he died was because he refused healing on the advice of a forsaken! I do agree however that there refusal to look at certain topics is a major knock against the institution which I have aknowledged as failed.

I know it was Ishamael. What I'm saying is that the White Tower, the leading force against the Shadow, deserves to be called to account for 1) not realizing that Ishamael was behind Hawkwing's downfall and Luthair's trip and 2) not stopping him. Great successes come with great failures, and the success of keeping civilization alive for 3000 years sits rit alongside the massive failure of not noticing that the leader of the Forsaken was active in the world.

 

They were supposed to know that a Forsaken wasn't actually sealed but was being spun out for 40 year periods of time and happened to have Hawkwing's ear? Keep in mind he most likely used compulsion to get him to dismiss all AS from their governor and counselor positions in the empire and forced the decisions to invade other lands. He systematically went about destroying the Empire and I'm not sure what they realistically could have done. I get what you are saying however, they are the ones on watch. Just think it is somehwat unrealistic to expect them to have known or succesfully defended against it.

 

Yes thank you Suttree. For all the world knew, all of the Forsaken were imprisoned in SG until the DO breaks free. How could they ever have thought one of the Forsaken would be spun out for a period of time to influence the world every 40 years? It's inconceivable!

Furthermore, on the BA, Eggy and all the AS seem quite shocked when they find out how many BA there are. I got the impression that they had always thought the BA was a really small group, (kind of like the Sith in SW were always 2, one master and one apprentice). How could they possibly have thought that so many of them were BA and successfully hiding in their ranks?

 

Another point, multiple AS say throughout the series that what makes them AS is the Oaths they swore on the Oath Rod. It's what sets them apart from all other channellers (i.e. Windfinders, Wise Ones, the Kin, Damane). If becoming BA breaks one's Oaths, then are they really AS any longer, or are they just channellers posing as AS?

The AS in the AoL did not swear the 3 Oaths. The 3 Oaths were invented during the Breaking (correct me if I'm wrong) or shortly after. To call the Forsaken "AS" is quite a stretch as what was considered AS in the AoL was completely different than what we see in current Randland. A completely different organization with the same name.

 

Finally, I think this is a great tribute to RJ's skill as a storyteller. The AS were controversial to many of the people and cultures in Randland. It says something that RJ succeeded in making them so controversial that even we the readers find them controversial and have differing opinions on whether they were good or bad, failures or successful, helpful or a hindrance.

[thisguy]

 

 

WT policies allowed and encouraged the BA to exist.

This is absolutely true. I think a lot of it comes from ego and pride, too. Shoot, even if they had to retake their oaths once a year, they would have found a few BA, at least.

[Suttree]

2) Which forsaken? Isshy was a male. How the heck was he to teach the females how to do that?

 

Are you seriously putting forth that Ishy couldn't have walked them through something that simple? He worked with women every day in the AoL after all.

 

Who do you blame for slavery? The original slavers? Or the people who continued slavery until they were freed. Just because your father gave you slaves doesn't mean you have to keep them.

 

Which is of course a ridiculously flawed analogy. I will give you this. You are excellent at coming up with most negative association a la slavery and genocide when describing AS traits.

 

I don't feel like digging them up but the reasons for why that oath rod method was flawed and wouldn't have worked in the long run have been discussed ad nauseum in old threads.

[thisguy]

Another point, multiple AS say throughout the series that what makes them AS is the Oaths they swore on the Oath Rod. It's what sets them apart from all other channellers (i.e. Windfinders, Wise Ones, the Kin, Damane). If becoming BA breaks one's Oaths, then are they really AS any longer, or are they just channellers posing as AS?

The AS in the AoL did not swear the 3 Oaths. The 3 Oaths were invented during the Breaking (correct me if I'm wrong) or shortly after. To call the Forsaken "AS" is quite a stretch as what was considered AS in the AoL was completely different than what we see in current Randland. A completely different organization with the same name.

 

Finally, I think this is a great tribute to RJ's skill as a storyteller. The AS were controversial to many of the people and cultures in Randland. It says something that RJ succeeded in making them so controversial that even we the readers find them controversial and have differing opinions on whether they were good or bad, failures or successful, helpful or a hindrance.

Considering that once upon a time AS never swore on the oath rod, does that make the newer generations of AS not AS. That's the same reasoning you're using for saying that channelers who have not sworn the three oaths are not AS. In every other aspect the BA are AS and are treated as AS even by their fellow AS.