Three on the boat

[FarShainMael]

This is in response to some comments made on the 'How Rand dies and comes back to life' thread. A number of people are wondering how a boat comes into it. I thought it might be helpful to offer a summary of the situation.

 

A boat is mentioned twice, by Nicola and the Wise Ones:

 

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives."

 

"Melaine and Bair dreamed of you on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see, and a scale tilting first one way then the other.

 

There is a very strong Arthurian parallel here. After the Battle of Camlann where Arthur and his son Mordred meet in mortal combat (Rand/Moridin?) and Arthur is mortally wounded, he is taken to Avalon by boat, accompanied by three queens:

 

http://www.arthurian...-darthur-21.php

 

Then {Bedivere} carried Arthur to that same water side, where he was put aboard a mysterious barge. On it were three queens: Queen Morgan le Fay, the Queen of Northgalis, and the Queen of the Wastelands, and also many damosels including Nimue, all in black hoods.

In spite of their ancient and bitter rivalry, Morgan rested Arthur's head in her lap and said "Ah, dear brother, why have ye tarried so long from me? Alas, this wound on your head hath caught over-much cold."

 

As the shrieking women bore him away across the waters, Arthur told Bedivere that he was being taken to the Vale of Avelion to be healed, and bid him farewell.

 

 

Another version has this:

 

http://www.caerleon....rthur/page2.htm *

 

Unfortunately, as peace settled over the country things turned sour within the court of Camelot and civil war broke out. In the final battle at Camlan both Arthur and Mordred, Arthur's traitorous nephew, were mortally wounded. Arthur was set upon a boat and floated down river to the isle of Avalon. Here his wounds were treated by three mysterious maidens.

 

 

Other references:

 

http://www.glastonbu....com/arthur.php

http://www.legendofk...aces/avalon.htm

http://www.earlybrit...hur/avalon.html

 

Some comments

1. It's interesting that the Wise Ones could not see the faces of the three women; it seems that their identity is in doubt. It does seem obvious that they must be Rand's trio - perhaps too obvious!

 

Elayne has never held a sword to defend Andor; Avi is still Aiel ('Dedicated') but is no longer a Maiden of the Spear; and Min is not the only one who 'sees beyond'; Egwene does as well. Further, Min's death may have been foreshadowed by the LTT-voice adding her to Rand's 'list' in TGS29. Also, Egwene has Skimmed on a barge, in ACoS12.

 

2. *The above ref goes on to say:

 

His body was never found and many say that he rests under a hill with all his knights - ready to ride forth and save the country again.

 

So there may not be a resurrection after all. Depends on how far RJ took the legend!

[Mik]

This is in response to some comments made on the 'How Rand dies and comes back to life' thread. A number of people are wondering how a boat comes into it. I thought it might be helpful to offer a summary of the situation.

 

.../ /...

 

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives."

 

.../ /...

 

So there may not be a resurrection after all. Depends on how far RJ took the legend!

Just looking at that quote makes me wonder why people think about resurrection. That Foretelling literally states that 'he who is dead yet lives'.

The Dragon will be both alive and dead at the same time. It might feel like moments or like an eternity for the Dragon, because it might very well be in a mix of TAR and the Real World (enterrr Horn of Valere!) like I posted some time ago in the 'twice dawns the day thread'.

Why would anyone that is 'yet living' need resurrecting help from outside?

 

He needs 'willpower' and 'strenght of mind' in the one place where Thought is Matter and Reality is like Clay to Shai'tan.

Thought is the arrow of Time. Keep your head clear, me little Dragon!, in the maelstrom of Chaos!

 

It's his fight. All the rest can do is have faith (belief) and combat chaos (order).

Let the Dragon duke ik out with the Shadow in the Void. Technically, you might just call someone dead when residing there.

Let the Lord of the Morning, the Prince of the Dawn have a Memory of Light and through sheer willpower (In TAR @ the Bore) will the Sun (second Dawn) to rise in the Heart of the Dark.

Let Lews Therin sacrifice himself hoping for nothing but salvation and Rebirth (coincidence that this is the strongest, purest oath / way to bind yourself?) and seal away Shai'tan -as it was once designed by the Creator- inside the Dragon Soul by literally 'embracing Death' (as the Aiel say the Dragon has learned) with Light.

Rands living mind will find a way (enter Fain? enter Bond to his wives?) back to creation to stay alive and emerge from the Void.

In the Real World a few days might have gone by... because of the different time-flow in TAR.

 

Who needs something like resurrection?

Certainly not the Champion of Life, I'd guess.

 

 

"Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time!"

[FarShainMael]

Nice!

 

And of course, there's this: 'If you would live, you must die'.

[Vardar]

Yes the Boat part has always bothered me, but then again, it bothered me that Eggy's skimming platform is a boat. When has she seen a boat before leaving the two rivers? Was that ever explained?

 

This is one of the things I'm looking forward too the most figuring out.

[Mik]

Nice!

*bows*

 

And of course, there's this: 'If you would live, you must die'.

Bingo!

 

Don't forget that right before that, the answer tells us "The two must be as one".

Enterrrrr VoG! There still are two living minds, but they behave as one. Doesn't say they are one.

 

Woop woop. *smiles again*

[FarShainMael]

@Mik: *shake hands*

Caution, though: according to Rand's PoV in VoG, 'they were not two men, and never had been'.

 

Yes the Boat part has always bothered me, but then again, it bothered me that Eggy's skimming platform is a boat. When has she seen a boat before leaving the two rivers? Was that ever explained?

 

This is one of the things I'm looking forward too the most figuring out.

 

Back in EotW12, the group led by Moiraine and Lan (Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene and Thom) arrive at Taren Ferry on their way to Baerlon. The ferry is described as a 'wooden barge with high sides'. I don't think we know whether Eg has ever visited TF before this.

[Mik]

@Mik: *shake hands*

Caution, though: according to Rand's PoV in VoG, 'they were not two men, and never had been'.

Caution for what? Rand sees it right; they never had been two men.

It has always been one man; a body with a soul (the dragon soul) and two distinct living minds.

 

Lews Therin had practically mindtrapped himself when he had sealed the Bore. By sealing the Bore -the place where I believe the Dragon Soul is woven into the Pattern- (*points up at my first post*) he accidently trapped his Mind on the other side of the seal when LTT overloaded on saidin. LTT said he had 'never died the final death'. He said that 'he couldnt escape the traps he spun himself'.

A part of the Dragon, the part that made the Dragon Lews Therin -his Mind-, had survived.

It was waiting for the right Soul (the Dragon Soul) to be spun out again on the right place (where he died) at the right time (when the seals were weakening). so that it could re-attach itself to that all important soul.

That's why it was Foretold that the Dragon had to be Reborn at the place where the Dragon had died at a time when the seals were weakening.

 

That also explains why Gitara had her foretelling the instant that Rand was born on Dragonmount; Lews Therin was (re-)born as well, by having his mind re-attach to the right soul.

 

That also explain why LTT could channel in KoD, but needed Rand to move the body.

For channeling -per Moiraines words in TEotW- you need a living mind.

But like Shaidar Haran tells the 'gars, "the mind bends to the body".

 

'They were not two men, and never had been'. Exactly.

It's very important the Dragon realizes that, since to survive part of the answer was: "The two must be as one".

The two living minds -the Dragon/LTT & the Sheepherder/Rand- must be as one.

It doesn't say "the two are (actually) one"

[Vardar]

@Mik: *shake hands*

Caution, though: according to Rand's PoV in VoG, 'they were not two men, and never had been'.

 

Yes the Boat part has always bothered me, but then again, it bothered me that Eggy's skimming platform is a boat. When has she seen a boat before leaving the two rivers? Was that ever explained?

 

This is one of the things I'm looking forward too the most figuring out.

 

Back in EotW12, the group led by Moiraine and Lan (Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene and Thom) arrive at Taren Ferry on their way to Baerlon. The ferry is described as a 'wooden barge with high sides'. I don't think we know whether Eg has ever visited TF before this.

 

The boys said they were among the few who had been there. And I'm pretty sure Eggy never had, Rand thought it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Mik, loving your posts recently, I really like the whole LTT mind thing, it certainly makes sense.

 

One thing though, I think you got something mixed up, I don't recall "two must be one", from the Karatheon Cycle the prophecy goes :

He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one

 

As for the whole boat thing, I am still unsure. I can see the sense in it being more than what it seems, but the link between Rand's 3 and the prophecy is too strong.

 

The names are not particularly important, they can easily be recognized for who they are. Elayne, as queen of Andor, is the sword of her people, she is their leader. (She also mentions she is fond of the queen who rode into battle with her men, if it makes any difference) Plus she is weapon enough herself to be considered a figurative sword. Aviendha is dedicated to the Aiel. "The Spears" is used to describe the Aiel people, and they are the Spear of the Dragon. She who sees beyond, if we want to take it really literal, has to be Min, she actually sees the Auras of the future. Dreamers and such dream of it, they don't actually see beyond. But yeah, I can't very well go all literal on one while saying the others shouldn't be taken literally

 

Prophecy is rarely literal, after all, Perrin isn't exactly the Wolf King, wolves have no kings. I think the splitting of hairs with the names may be over thinking it, but it is an interesting thought. I would like to know who the 3 people are if not the 3 girls. Egwene, I assume is one, what about the other two? Birgitte might fit, and she was a hero until Moggy messed her up, so she could provide some helpful information (If we are to assume this will happen in TAR) The dedicated spear, however, I can't think of. It has to be a woman, if we take the wise ones' dream with Nicola's.

 

re: Min dying, it could happen, but the time frame is very slim. Assuming that we agree this will happen when Rand dies, or appears to die, Min should be alive still, according to the DKS cover, while unfinished, the scene is not a fake, apparently Min, Aviendha and Elayne will be alive, when Rand is on his beir, dead or otherwise.

 

Anyway, just some thoughts that came to mind. I am interested to hear more about this though.

[Mik]

Mik, loving your posts recently, I really like the whole LTT mind thing, it certainly makes sense.

 

One thing though, I think you got something mixed up, I don't recall "two must be one", from the Karatheon Cycle the prophecy goes :

He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one

 

Hey Barid! Comming from you, that really lifts my spirit! Thanks! *bows*

 

I was referring to the Aelfinn answer about how to win and survive:

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

 

Your remark just added a skip to my stride! *skip-tee-doo*

[FarShainMael]

Ninja'd by Mik

 

Yep, I like your thoughts on 'not two men and never had been'.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Gah, I knew I had forgotten something. I stand corrected.

[Lisa Campbell]

Have to agree with Barid (and others), loving your posts Mik, especially since they generally reflect my opinions and save my fingers and sanity at times, as in, you tend to carry my torch -when I can't be bothered or else you just beat me to it. Check out an old theory of mine, I think it will interest you...

 

www.dragonmount.com/forums/user/14891-youmaycallmeelci/

 

Edit: just tested my link and it didn't work. I copied the URL from the browser after I found my old post, why did it go to "warren's" something or other? Can anyone help

 

Edit again: typo in link

 

Edit again: fixing up typo still took me to warren. Help???

[FarShainMael]

@barid:

 

I would like to know who the 3 people are if not the 3 girls. Egwene, I assume is one, what about the other two? Birgitte might fit, and she was a hero until Moggy messed her up, so she could provide some helpful information (If we are to assume this will happen in TAR) The dedicated spear, however, I can't think of. It has to be a woman, if we take the wise ones' dream with Nicola's.

 

I agree that Eg and Birgitte would be possible alternatives, but like you I can't think of an alternative for the 'dedicated spear'. She wouldn't be a Wise One. Maybe it's Bain or Chiad, sent along by Perrin because for some reason Avi is busy or not present. I'll have to think about that one.

 

I'm not sure how much we can take from Sweet's unfinished cover art. I know it's been said by Irene Gallo at Tor that "the scene depicts Min, Aviendha, and Elayne gathered on a battlefield around what is presumably a funeral pyre for Rand al’Thor" :

 

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/04/a-darrell-k-sweet-wheel-of-time-tribute-including-a-memory-of-light-sketch

 

But that could simply be her assumption - she already uses the word 'presumably' so it's not set in stone.

 

I think that if Min does die, for dramatic reasons it really should be before Rand goes to SG!

[Barid Bel Medar]

@FSM

 

Yeah, fair enough with the DKS cover, it isn't set in stone. Not sure about Min dying, so I will leave that for now, but I would agree that in terms of story, it should be before Rand goes to Shayol Ghul. (Although the boat scene might be before the final SG scene, so ?)

 

Continuing with the Dedicated Spear, if we are to say it isn't Avi because she is no longer a maiden, then it would have to be a maiden?

 

So the most prominent would be Bain and Chiad, as you said, but what would they be doing anything like that for? Sulin comes to mind, she is still around. But apart from being a maiden and fond of Rand, I don't know why she would be involved.

 

Going out on a limb, it could possibly be applied to Moiraine, as she is pretty dedicated, perhaps the most dedicated of all, "spear" could be just a figurative description of a weapon against the Shadow, and also she has the most potential to do something important in the scene, but then why would she be called a dedicated spear, I would think it would be something else.

 

Nynaeve might be another, simply because of her connection to Rand and his healing/possible resurrection. But again, not really seeing her as a dedicated spear.

 

Alivia could be another, because of her role with Rand, and as a former damane, she was basically just a weapon (spear) and now she is fully dedicated to Rand's cause.

 

Avi seems the most likely to fit here though, as all of the others make less sense than her. Still, even if this is Avi, it is possible that the others are not the other 2 women.

[Lisa Campbell]

Thanks for the link Far, I hadn't seen all of Sweet's covers, and they are sweet! Couldn't find it last time I searched so gave up.

[shortkut]

If it is healing and not TAR ripping, i wonder if it would take Ny leading a full circle of 72 to heal him.

 

If they do have to enter TAR, i think Min will use the twisted ring to enter with everyone else. Who else that does not channel would have a reason to enter TAR? It was mentioned too many times that channeling was not needed for someone who does not channel to not use it.

[FarShainMael]

Have to agree with Barid (and others), loving your posts Mik, especially since they generally reflect my opinions and save my fingers and sanity at times, as in, you tend to carry my torch -when I can't be bothered or else you just beat me to it. Check out an old theory of mine, I think it will interest you...

 

www.dragonmount.com/forums/user/14891-youmaycallmeelci/

 

Edit: just tested my link and it didn't work. I copied the URL from the browser after I found my old post, why did it go to "warren's" something or other? Can anyone help

 

Edit again: typo in link

 

Edit again: fixing up typo still took me to warren. Help???

 

http://www.dragonmou...umaycallmeelci/ Changed 'user' to 'topic' but it went off somewhere else.. Do you recall any particular keywords you could search on?

[Lisa Campbell]

I looked up my topics on my profile to find it. Was from 2011 in the topic Rand vs Moridin.

[FarShainMael]

Google to the rescue......?

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/63673-regarding-rand-vs-moridin/

 

(I searched on "Rand vs Moridin", so the quotes made it a complete phrase.)

[Lisa Campbell]

Thanks Far, did you like?

[FarShainMael]

See my response on that thread!

[FarShainMael]

From the 'what questions are left to be answered' thread:

 

@FSM well, really, the symbolism here is much too obvious. It clearly means Avi, Min and Elayne. and as you yourself say in that link it strongly parallels the Arthurian legends and the three women involved with Rand/Arthur. The foretelling symbolism also closely resembles the triple goddess parallels: maiden=Avi, mother=Elayne and crow(seer)=Min. When taken separately they may possibly mean some other people (say, she, who sees beyond might have meant Egwene) but when all three are mentioned together like they are in this foretelling they have to be Rand's girls.

 

Not so, I think.

 

Referring back to the extract I posted above:

 

Then {Bedivere} carried Arthur to that same water side, where he was put aboard a mysterious barge. On it were three queens: Queen Morgan le Fay, the Queen of Northgalis, and the Queen of the Wastelands, and also many damosels including Nimue, all in black hoods.

 

Morgan le Fay was Arthur's sister, and for a long time his bitter rival, which makes Egwene a good parallel! The other two are her associates:

 

http://www.earlybrit...ios/morgan.html

 

Morgan retired to Gore (North Rheged) and then to her Castle of Tauroc (possibly in North Wales). The Royal court appears to have thought her dead until Arthur came across her residence while out hunting one day. The two were immediately reconciled. In late life she moved to the Isle of Avalon, and it was to here that she and her allies, the Queens of Northgalis (North Wales) and the Wastelands, took her wounded brother to be healed after the Battle of Camlann.

 

I'm aware that Rand's three women do reflect the maiden/mother/crone triplet; but the three queens in the boat don't seem to form such a group.

 

Also, bear in mind that the Wise Ones who had the dream of these three women could not see their faces. Their identity was not known. I think they may turn out to be Egwene and two of her own associates.

 

ETA: The 'dedicated spear' may turn out to be Sulin - a Maiden of the Spear, and roofmistress of the Roof of the Maidens in Rhuidean = Queen of the Wastelands!

 

ETAmore: There are quite a few mythological triplets besides maiden/mother/crone:

 

http://www.unc.edu/celtic/catalogue/triplism/index.html

[Bromo Sapien]

When I read the first quote of the queens on the barge, I realized we have three queens close to Rand who could reflect the ones on the barge: Egwene as the "Queen" of the Aes Sedai (reminiscent of Morgan le Fay), Nynaeve as the Queen of Malkier (Queen of the Wastelands ie the destroyed country in the Borderlands), and Elayne as the Queen of Andor (not sure how it completely connects with the Queen of Northgalis, though Wales is part of the UK along with England, Andor's real world counterpart). The only other queens I could really think of are the Borderland queens (not nearly a big enough connection to warrant a ride on the barge; Min would stab the lot of them if they tried) or possibly Tuon (though she's an Empress, not a queen).

 

We've already mentioned how Egwene could be the one who sees beyond and Elayne could obviously be the lion sword. Nynaeve certainly is dedicated to Rand completely and totally but I'm not sure how she could be construed as a spear other than her role as a badass warrior.

[FarShainMael]

Queen of Malkier.. yes indeed!

 

I've always thought of the Two Rivers themselves as being England/Wales, with their longbows.