Perspectives you dont want to see and you want to see

[Morsker]

The woman's got a system. Her heart's in the right place, and she has the world's best track record of getting the job done.

 

It's true some people don't have the friendliest of demeanor, but what's really important is her heart is in the right place and she knows what she's doing.

 

the worst you could say is Jordan has a poor conception of what makes good psychology, but even looking at it as a real world approach i don't think her methods were so poor.

That's a good point. But, over the 13 books the guys have wanted to be rid of AS mostly, especially Rand after Dumai. Yes, you could put it down to writing but looking at the characters as people, I just don't like her and the fact that anything she did worked out seems like providence more than strategy. Just my opinion.

I feel the same way, but I veer towards calling it editorializing, not just providence. RJ wants to tell the reader that respecting a bully like Cadsuane will make you strong like she is, just like her enduring punishment at the hands of the toothless wilder is responsible for all her greatness in life. We see it again in Egwene praising the woman who tortured her on a daily basis. Then for contrast we have the occasional "bad" form of abuse, where trying to "break" someone is bad, like locking Rand in a box, or making Egwene damane. And in the Seanchen we see attempts to present slavery as sometimes noble, sometimes abusive. Or Alanna's mind-rape of Rand possibly saving his life on multiple occasions. The series is very interested in exploring the details of these sadomasochistic relationships, and viewing them as sometimes positive, sometimes not. And if RJ had finished this, he would've written a Seanchen-centric trilogy, and then a separate Seanchen-like series; clearly this whole slavery / domination thing is a major theme.

 

This is why I don't like Cadsuane as RJ wrote her. She's not a complex character at all; she's a one-dimensional infomercial for hazing. Maybe RJ would have made her flawed eventually; it's rather suspicious that he didn't, since even Rand and Egwene are flawed. Even Lan is flawed, and he's RJ's favorite. So I think it's unfair to blame Brandon for the flaws he introduced. RJ would have gotten to do it, as part of her character development; RJ would have done it better, but he still would have done it. Or if he wouldn't, then she's just pro-hazing propaganda.

[thisguy]

The woman's got a system. Her heart's in the right place, and she has the world's best track record of getting the job done.

 

It's true some people don't have the friendliest of demeanor, but what's really important is her heart is in the right place and she knows what she's doing.

 

the worst you could say is Jordan has a poor conception of what makes good psychology, but even looking at it as a real world approach i don't think her methods were so poor.

That's a good point. But, over the 13 books the guys have wanted to be rid of AS mostly, especially Rand after Dumai. Yes, you could put it down to writing but looking at the characters as people, I just don't like her and the fact that anything she did worked out seems like providence more than strategy. Just my opinion.

I feel the same way, but I veer towards calling it editorializing, not just providence. RJ wants to tell the reader that respecting a bully like Cadsuane will make you strong like she is, just like her enduring punishment at the hands of the toothless wilder is responsible for all her greatness in life. We see it again in Egwene praising the woman who tortured her on a daily basis. Then for contrast we have the occasional "bad" form of abuse, where trying to "break" someone is bad, like locking Rand in a box, or making Egwene damane. And in the Seanchen we see attempts to present slavery as sometimes noble, sometimes abusive. Or Alanna's mind-rape of Rand possibly saving his life on multiple occasions. The series is very interested in exploring the details of these sadomasochistic relationships, and viewing them as sometimes positive, sometimes not. And if RJ had finished this, he would've written a Seanchen-centric trilogy, and then a separate Seanchen-like series; clearly this whole slavery / domination thing is a major theme.

 

This is why I don't like Cadsuane as RJ wrote her. She's not a complex character at all; she's a one-dimensional infomercial for hazing. Maybe RJ would have made her flawed eventually; it's rather suspicious that he didn't, since even Rand and Egwene are flawed. Even Lan is flawed, and he's RJ's favorite. So I think it's unfair to blame Brandon for the flaws he introduced. RJ would have gotten to do it, as part of her character development; RJ would have done it better, but he still would have done it. Or if he wouldn't, then she's just pro-hazing propaganda.

 

Wow. Very interesting. Thanks for that. I never looked at the story that way but, now that you say it, I see it clearly. Had RJ ever commented on this himself?

[Suttree]

This is why I don't like Cadsuane as RJ wrote her. She's not a complex character at all; she's a one-dimensional infomercial for hazing.

 

Considering we see her size up situations and then use a variety of tactics based on what would work best at any given time not sure how you would reach that conclusion. In addition she almost unfailingly treats people based on their actions. She does live by the mantra of "what must be endured, could be endured" but as RJ said she is a complex and "remarkably adaptable" woman.

 

CoT

"I expect you to watch her, Samitsu. No more than that. I want to know what on eof these Dragonsworn sisters does when neither I nor the Wise Ones are looking over their shoulders and holding a switch. Youve always been very observant." Patience was not always her strongest trait, but sometimes it was required with Samitsu. The Yellow was observant, and intelligent, and strong willed most of the time, not to mention the best alive at Healing -- At least until the appearance of Damer Flinn -- but she could suffer the most astonishing collapses in confidence. The stick never worked with Samitsu, but pats on the back did, and it was ridiculous not to use what worked...

 

There are multiple examples of her using the best method to achieve results at any given time throughout the series. Bullying is just one chapter out of a large play book.

[Vardar]

This is why I don't like Cadsuane as RJ wrote her. She's not a complex character at all; she's a one-dimensional infomercial for hazing.

 

Considering we see her size up situations and then use a variety of tactics based on what would work best at any given time not sure how you would reach that conclusion. In addition she almost unfailingly treats people based on their actions. She does live by the mantra of "what must be endured, could be endured" but as RJ said she is a complex and "remarkably adaptable" woman.

 

CoT

"I expect you to watch her, Samitsu. No more than that. I want to know what on eof these Dragonsworn sisters does when neither I nor the Wise Ones are looking over their shoulders and holding a switch. Youve always been very observant." Patience was not always her strongest trait, but sometimes it was required with Samitsu. The Yellow was observant, and intelligent, and strong willed most of the time, not to mention the best alive at Healing -- At least until the appearance of Damer Flinn -- but she could suffer the most astonishing collapses in confidence. The stick never worked with Samitsu, but pats on the back did, and it was ridiculous not to use what worked...

 

There are multiple examples of her using the best method to achieve results at any given time throughout the series. Bullying is just one chapter out of a large play book.

 

I thought it was "How she thinks they deserve to be treated"

 

3. Just 3. (Or was it 4, Samitsu, Verin, Wise Ones) Bullying is the book. Those few examples are small footnotes.

 

Anyway, I Came here to say, Mors, interesting ideas. Very nice read sir.

[Suttree]

This is why I don't like Cadsuane as RJ wrote her. She's not a complex character at all; she's a one-dimensional infomercial for hazing.

 

Considering we see her size up situations and then use a variety of tactics based on what would work best at any given time not sure how you would reach that conclusion. In addition she almost unfailingly treats people based on their actions. She does live by the mantra of "what must be endured, could be endured" but as RJ said she is a complex and "remarkably adaptable" woman.

 

CoT

"I expect you to watch her, Samitsu. No more than that. I want to know what on eof these Dragonsworn sisters does when neither I nor the Wise Ones are looking over their shoulders and holding a switch. Youve always been very observant." Patience was not always her strongest trait, but sometimes it was required with Samitsu. The Yellow was observant, and intelligent, and strong willed most of the time, not to mention the best alive at Healing -- At least until the appearance of Damer Flinn -- but she could suffer the most astonishing collapses in confidence. The stick never worked with Samitsu, but pats on the back did, and it was ridiculous not to use what worked...

 

There are multiple examples of her using the best method to achieve results at any given time throughout the series. Bullying is just one chapter out of a large play book.

 

I thought it was "How she thinks they deserve to be treated"

 

3. Just 3. (Or was it 4, Samitsu, Verin, Wise Ones) Bullying is the book. Those few examples are small footnotes.

 

Anyway, I Came here to say, Mors, interesting ideas. Very nice read sir.

 

Off the top of my head Kumira(or kiruna), Samitsu, WOs(multiple), Verin. There are others but I would have to go back...

 

It's well established from the text and notws that it is one tool of many. As the quote says "it was ridiculous not to use what worked".

 

 

[Vardar]

This is why I don't like Cadsuane as RJ wrote her. She's not a complex character at all; she's a one-dimensional infomercial for hazing.

 

Considering we see her size up situations and then use a variety of tactics based on what would work best at any given time not sure how you would reach that conclusion. In addition she almost unfailingly treats people based on their actions. She does live by the mantra of "what must be endured, could be endured" but as RJ said she is a complex and "remarkably adaptable" woman.

 

CoT

"I expect you to watch her, Samitsu. No more than that. I want to know what on eof these Dragonsworn sisters does when neither I nor the Wise Ones are looking over their shoulders and holding a switch. Youve always been very observant." Patience was not always her strongest trait, but sometimes it was required with Samitsu. The Yellow was observant, and intelligent, and strong willed most of the time, not to mention the best alive at Healing -- At least until the appearance of Damer Flinn -- but she could suffer the most astonishing collapses in confidence. The stick never worked with Samitsu, but pats on the back did, and it was ridiculous not to use what worked...

 

There are multiple examples of her using the best method to achieve results at any given time throughout the series. Bullying is just one chapter out of a large play book.

 

I thought it was "How she thinks they deserve to be treated"

 

3. Just 3. (Or was it 4, Samitsu, Verin, Wise Ones) Bullying is the book. Those few examples are small footnotes.

 

Anyway, I Came here to say, Mors, interesting ideas. Very nice read sir.

 

Off the top of my head Kumira(or kiruna), Samitsu, WOs(multiple), Verin. There are others but I would have to go back...

 

It's well established from the text and notws that it is one tool of many. As the quote says "it was ridiculous not to use what worked".

 

I don't recall her being polite to Kiruna actually. Kumira I recall, along with Daigan, both are very weak in the power and thus cowed. Samitsu I don't recall either. I'll be at those books soon, do you recal any particular situations?

 

As for the bolded part, that phrase, as well as other's you've used before, can be used to rationalize anything up too and including genocide. Just like the whole "How she thinks they deserve to be treated"

[Suttree]

This is why I don't like Cadsuane as RJ wrote her. She's not a complex character at all; she's a one-dimensional infomercial for hazing.

 

Considering we see her size up situations and then use a variety of tactics based on what would work best at any given time not sure how you would reach that conclusion. In addition she almost unfailingly treats people based on their actions. She does live by the mantra of "what must be endured, could be endured" but as RJ said she is a complex and "remarkably adaptable" woman.

 

CoT

"I expect you to watch her, Samitsu. No more than that. I want to know what on eof these Dragonsworn sisters does when neither I nor the Wise Ones are looking over their shoulders and holding a switch. Youve always been very observant." Patience was not always her strongest trait, but sometimes it was required with Samitsu. The Yellow was observant, and intelligent, and strong willed most of the time, not to mention the best alive at Healing -- At least until the appearance of Damer Flinn -- but she could suffer the most astonishing collapses in confidence. The stick never worked with Samitsu, but pats on the back did, and it was ridiculous not to use what worked...

 

There are multiple examples of her using the best method to achieve results at any given time throughout the series. Bullying is just one chapter out of a large play book.

 

I thought it was "How she thinks they deserve to be treated"

 

3. Just 3. (Or was it 4, Samitsu, Verin, Wise Ones) Bullying is the book. Those few examples are small footnotes.

 

Anyway, I Came here to say, Mors, interesting ideas. Very nice read sir.

 

Off the top of my head Kumira(or kiruna), Samitsu, WOs(multiple), Verin. There are others but I would have to go back...

 

It's well established from the text and notws that it is one tool of many. As the quote says "it was ridiculous not to use what worked".

 

I don't recall her being polite to Kiruna actually. Kumira I recall, along with Daigan, both are very weak in the power and thus cowed. Samitsu I don't recall either. I'll be at those books soon, do you recal any particular situations?

 

As for the bolded part, that phrase, as well as other's you've used before, can be used to rationalize anything up too and including genocide. Just like the whole "How she thinks they deserve to be treated"

 

I couldn't remember the name, it was indeed Kumira. As for Samitsu it is in the quote a few posts up. Cads knows Samitsu is one of the best healers but needs her confidence propped up.

 

For the second part, Cads usually sizes people up and treats them based upon their actions. Yes much of that is informed by what she thinks. If you had lived as long as she had and acheived that level of success you obviously would follow your own instincts. Funny how you keep trying to link things like "genocide" to her way of thinking when we know it doesn't even remotely fit with her character. How is that even applicable to the topic?

 

Lastly a bully by definition is someone who is "habitually cruel or overbearing, especially to small or weaker people". Yet you claim she doesn't bully Kumira and Daigan because they are weaker. You see the hole in your logic? If she doesn't habitually bully those weaker then she is not a bully by nature. Bullying is but a tool to her and as she says it is "ridiculous not to use what worked".

[Sasha Grayes]

Want to see Aes Sedai and/or mother Elayne.

Dont want to see Queen Elayne.

[Vardar]

For the second part, Cads usually sizes people up and treats them based upon their actions. Yes much of that is informed by what she thinks. If you had lived as long as she had and acheived that level of success you obviously would follow your own instincts. Funny how you keep trying to link things like "genocide" to her way of thinking when we know it doesn't even remotely fit with her character. How is that even applicable to the topic?

 

 

Just saying, always doing what you believe is right can rationalize anything. It's a logical fallacy.

 

Lastly a bully by definition is someone who is "habitually cruel or overbearing, especially to small or weaker people". Yet you claim she doesn't bully Kumira and Daigan because they are weaker. You see the hole in your logic? If she doesn't habitually bully those weaker then she is not a bully by nature. Bullying is but a tool to her and as she says it is "ridiculous not to use what worked".

 

Actually, that goes to prove my point. Generally speaking, whatever someone does the most is seen as how they really are. The fact that she can, and knows how to deviate from her usual rude tactics doesn't mean she's not a bully at heart, it just means she's a smart bully. Even for a bully, it takes effort and work (coming up with snappy comments, thinking of new ways to be mean, even as second nature expends energy) why bully when she doesn't have too because they'll obey her anyway.

 

It brings to mind a saying I like to use, "I'm evil, not barbaric."

 

There is no hole in my logic, because those few situaitons do not make her personality, the exact opposite. Hell, if the situations of her not bveing rude/bulling were remotely close to the situations where she does those tactics, I'd be more apt to believe your rationale, however as it stands, there are dozens, if not scores more situations of her behahaving in the rude/bulling manner. 4 situations can't explain dozens away.

[thisguy]

For the second part, Cads usually sizes people up and treats them based upon their actions. Yes much of that is informed by what she thinks. If you had lived as long as she had and acheived that level of success you obviously would follow your own instincts. Funny how you keep trying to link things like "genocide" to her way of thinking when we know it doesn't even remotely fit with her character. How is that even applicable to the topic?

 

 

Just saying, always doing what you believe is right can rationalize anything. It's a logical fallacy.

 

Lastly a bully by definition is someone who is "habitually cruel or overbearing, especially to small or weaker people". Yet you claim she doesn't bully Kumira and Daigan because they are weaker. You see the hole in your logic? If she doesn't habitually bully those weaker then she is not a bully by nature. Bullying is but a tool to her and as she says it is "ridiculous not to use what worked".

 

Actually, that goes to prove my point. Generally speaking, whatever someone does the most is seen as how they really are. The fact that she can, and knows how to deviate from her usual rude tactics doesn't mean she's not a bully at heart, it just means she's a smart bully. Even for a bully, it takes effort and work (coming up with snappy comments, thinking of new ways to be mean, even as second nature expends energy) why bully when she doesn't have too because they'll obey her anyway.

 

It brings to mind a saying I like to use, "I'm evil, not barbaric."

 

There is no hole in my logic, because those few situaitons do not make her personality, the exact opposite. Hell, if the situations of her not bveing rude/bulling were remotely close to the situations where she does those tactics, I'd be more apt to believe your rationale, however as it stands, there are dozens, if not scores more situations of her behahaving in the rude/bulling manner. 4 situations can't explain dozens away.

 

She's just another character in the book who expects - EXPECTS - to get her way. If she changed sides she wouldn't be much different than Leandrin (or whatever that black ajah chick's name was who Moghedien eventually severely punishes). She isn't colored evil so we let it go but she's just another queen without a country who thinks everyone should do as she says.

[Suttree]

Actually, that goes to prove my point. Generally speaking, whatever someone does the most is seen as how they really are. The fact that she can, and knows how to deviate from her usual rude tactics doesn't mean she's not a bully at heart, it just means she's a smart bully. Even for a bully, it takes effort and work (coming up with snappy comments, thinking of new ways to be mean, even as second nature expends energy) why bully when she doesn't have too because they'll obey her anyway.

 

It takes too much effort and work to bully those "weaker" and by your words "cowed". You have are changing the very meaning of the word to fit your argument mate. You do realize ll you are arguments have basically agreed she uses it as a tactic correct?.

[Vardar]

Actually, that goes to prove my point. Generally speaking, whatever someone does the most is seen as how they really are. The fact that she can, and knows how to deviate from her usual rude tactics doesn't mean she's not a bully at heart, it just means she's a smart bully. Even for a bully, it takes effort and work (coming up with snappy comments, thinking of new ways to be mean, even as second nature expends energy) why bully when she doesn't have too because they'll obey her anyway.

 

It takes too much effort and work to bully those "weaker" and by your words "cowed". You have are changing the very meaning of the word to fit your argument mate. You do realize ll you are arguments have basically agreed she uses it as a tactic correct?.

 

What am I changing the meaning of? Where in the definition of bully does it say must use these tatics all the time? It doesn't say a bully must bully 100% of the time. No one does anything 100% of the time. Even a murderer doesn't kill 100% of people he/she meets or finds. Hell, even Fain has lucid moments, that doesn't make him any less insane. You also ignored the amount of time spent doing what argument, as you have before.

 

She's just another character in the book who expects - EXPECTS - to get her way. If she changed sides she wouldn't be much different than Leandrin (or whatever that black ajah chick's name was who Moghedien eventually severely punishes). She isn't colored evil so we let it go but she's just another queen without a country who thinks everyone should do as she says.

 

I concur wholeheartedly. And that's fine. if people wish to rationalize her bahavior because "it's for the good" that's up to them. But to claim it's ok because of that, I refuse to accept.

 

Winner write the histories, so in this case, since she's successful (in a sort) people will accept things from her.

 

[OptimusPrime]

I'm well over 200 pages into the 4th book now. When I get to her part of the story I'll let you know what I think. But, I can say this, even though I haven't reread the books in years, many of the Aes Sedai piss me off. I think a lot of them are bullies. They don't necessarily do what's best for people, they do what they think is best for people.

 

Cool, look forward to hearing your thoughts. I get the AS thing...the institution has failed no doubt. Cads however is a throwback to what they should be. Notice the quote is referring to how idiotic the other AS had been and how much harder they had made Cad's mission. It is an extremely compassionate moment on her part. We as readers of course know she was very much correct in her assessment of what she needed to teach him, Dark Rand winning would have been every bit as bad as the DO winning. It can not be argued that she is in the right in terms of what she is trying to accomplish. In that she unfailingly had Rand's best interests in mind, she has had his back as much as just about anyone in the entire series. I just wish people paid more attention to that as opposed to the surface level games such as calling him "boy". It's like a knee jerk reaction the fandom has at times. Like OMFG she called messiah RAND a boy and treated him like a child!!! Meanwhile they have totally ignored she put his best interests over her own and the WT's.

 

Couldnt agree more. The thing that sets Cadsuane apart, in my oppinion, is that her high standards really ARE justified by her own examples and her own experience. She is patronizing in a grandmotherly way, except she is pretty much a grandmother among grandmothers. I think shes an awesome character, BECAUSE she calls Rand boy. Because shes like that to everyone. The one thing that dissapoints me is her fall from grace in TGS.

[thisguy]

The one thing that gets me, now that I think of it, is how little Aes Sedai seem to know or understand about rebirth. They call Rand the Dragon Reborn but never once wonder or question (that I can remember) whether he will actually have LTT's memories.

[Suttree]

The one thing that gets me, now that I think of it, is how little Aes Sedai seem to know or understand about rebirth. They call Rand the Dragon Reborn but never once wonder or question (that I can remember) whether he will actually have LTT's memories.

 

There is no precedent in world as far as current AS know of memory seepage. Even among Frosaken it is viewed as a huge negative that precedes an abrupt descent into madness.

[thisguy]

The one thing that gets me, now that I think of it, is how little Aes Sedai seem to know or understand about rebirth. They call Rand the Dragon Reborn but never once wonder or question (that I can remember) whether he will actually have LTT's memories.

 

There is no precedent in world as far as current AS know of memory seepage. Even among Frosaken it is viewed as a huge negative that precedes an abrupt descent into madness.

Well, the only time it's mentioned by an Aes Sedai past or present is Semirhage, right? And, we don't know if she's lying or telling the truth.

[Suttree]

The one thing that gets me, now that I think of it, is how little Aes Sedai seem to know or understand about rebirth. They call Rand the Dragon Reborn but never once wonder or question (that I can remember) whether he will actually have LTT's memories.

 

There is no precedent in world as far as current AS know of memory seepage. Even among Frosaken it is viewed as a huge negative that precedes an abrupt descent into madness.

Well, the only time it's mentioned by an Aes Sedai past or present is Semirhage, right? And, we don't know if she's lying or telling the truth.

 

Right therefore it is not possible than any current AS even really know. One of the major themes of the book is loss of knowledge and that this is a civilization in decline. Not sure how you can hold not knowing something like that against them.

[thisguy]

The one thing that gets me, now that I think of it, is how little Aes Sedai seem to know or understand about rebirth. They call Rand the Dragon Reborn but never once wonder or question (that I can remember) whether he will actually have LTT's memories.

 

There is no precedent in world as far as current AS know of memory seepage. Even among Frosaken it is viewed as a huge negative that precedes an abrupt descent into madness.

Well, the only time it's mentioned by an Aes Sedai past or present is Semirhage, right? And, we don't know if she's lying or telling the truth.

 

Right therefore it is not possible than any current AS even really know. One of the major themes of the book is loss of knowledge and that this is a civilization in decline. Not sure how you can hold not knowing something like that against them.

I'm not holding it against them, just surprised. If there's one constant it's that people are reborn. Another constant isthat certain people are reborn for certain tasks (LTT-Rand). But, they know absolutely nothing about what being reborn means or what can happen.

[Mulk]

We know that Semirhage rarely lies, from Lews Therin's memories. We don't know if this is one of the rarelies, but it didn't strike me as much, FWIW.

[Suttree]

We know that Semirhage rarely lies, from Lews Therin's memories. We don't know if this is one of the rarelies, but it didn't strike me as much, FWIW.

 

This, was just getting ready to edit my post. Thanks Quiet...

[thisguy]

We know that Semirhage rarely lies, from Lews Therin's memories. We don't know if this is one of the rarelies, but it didn't strike me as much, FWIW.

Thanks, didn't remember reading that (about her rarely lying).

[Neophyte]

Keep in mind, even to the Forsaken, the idea of a specific person being reborn for a specific purpose according to prophecy is all but completely foreign. As Graendal says during the Forsaken meeting in the prologue of TFOH:

 

"It may well be that, as many believe, all are reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who knows what he is?"

[condonmc]

Keep in mind, even to the Forsaken, the idea of a specific person being reborn for a specific purpose according to prophecy is all but completely foreign. As Graendal says during the Forsaken meeting in the prologue of TFOH:

 

"It may well be that, as many believe, all are reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who knows what he is?"

For some reason, I have it in my mind that Ishmael is also reborn through the Ages as a counter to the Dragon........maybe the prologue of the EOTW has somthing to do with it..?..

[Neophyte]

Keep in mind, even to the Forsaken, the idea of a specific person being reborn for a specific purpose according to prophecy is all but completely foreign. As Graendal says during the Forsaken meeting in the prologue of TFOH:

 

"It may well be that, as many believe, all are reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who knows what he is?"

For some reason, I have it in my mind that Ishmael is also reborn through the Ages as a counter to the Dragon........maybe the prologue of the EOTW has somthing to do with it..?..

 

Well ... Ishamael certainly thinks that he is reborn like the Dragon ... whether that is true or not, I don't think we know. Dear old Ishy is prone to occasional bouts of megalomania.

[Suttree]

Keep in mind, even to the Forsaken, the idea of a specific person being reborn for a specific purpose according to prophecy is all but completely foreign. As Graendal says during the Forsaken meeting in the prologue of TFOH:

 

"It may well be that, as many believe, all are reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who knows what he is?"

For some reason, I have it in my mind that Ishmael is also reborn through the Ages as a counter to the Dragon........maybe the prologue of the EOTW has somthing to do with it..?..

 

Well ... Ishamael certainly thinks that he is reborn like the Dragon ... whether that is true or not, I don't think we know. Dear old Ishy is prone to occasional bouts of megalomania.

 

We do know. Per RJ and BS Ishy and Rand's souls are intertwined a la Birgitte and Gaidal. They are frequently spun out together time and again. Ishy at least is very much aware the purpose of Rand's soul and knows they have fought this battle many times before.