How has Demandred "unleashed the balefire" in your opinion?

[Neophyte]

OK. I'll do this in order.

 

Your original statement, as included in your immediately preceding post, is as follows:

 

 

I always figured it was a combination of 1) distance from Shayol Ghul and 2) small amount of balefire. That would explain it using only the info in the extended RJ quote on 'limits and constraints' from the QOTW. And Graendal, knowing at least one female channeler was nearby, would have reason to use a small amount of balefire.

 

You didn't provide a link to this quote, but here it is:

 

Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

 

 

There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.

 

This quote doesn't talk about distance from Shayol Ghul at all. It talks about time constraints, which does leave open the possibility that a soul which was hit with a bare minimum of balefire might still be retrievable.

 

Then there is another quote, regarding Asmodean, in which Jordan apparently said that the Dark One could not bring him back because of "how" and "where" he died. I don't know where this quote is, and you didn't link to it, but let's just roll with that. My first post dealt with the word "where." To wit:

 

 

Just for the record ... RJ didn't actually say that distance was a factor. He said that location was a factor. There may some unique property to Caemlyn that we aren't aware of, that has nothing to do with its distance relative to another place. How and where, not how and how far.

 

So, that is the one with which I dealt first, as I said.

 

Then you said:

 

 

You are talking about the Asmodean quote. I am talking about this quote.

 

Of course, the quote to which you linked was neither the "Asmodean" quote nor the QOTW quote, it is an answer to Matt Hatch as a booksigning ... so then I dealt with that quote:

 

 

 

Given Ishamael's death and transmigration from Tear the idea that Caemlyn is too far away from the Bore doesn't hold up. After all, Be'lal and Ishamael both died in Tear on the very same night - within minutes of one another. Tear is, I think, indisputably farther from Shayol Ghul than Caemlyn, and we have two loyal Forsaken killed there at effectively the same time. The only difference is balefire.

 

In the quote you've just provided, when RJ talks about those who "cannot be reached" he specifically says those "slain out of time" with direct reference to balefire - he has moved on from the distance thing. There is even an awkwardly transcribed grammatical break/transition. When he says that the Dark One "has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere" it seems clear that he's talking about other ways the Dark One can "grab [a] soul," like mindtrapping. I know that Matt's line of questioning was about transmigration, but I'm sure you know that RJ often went on tangents when answering questions - the subject you thought you were getting an answer on isn't always what he was talking about.

 

In addition, the bit about Graendal needing to use a "small amount of balefire" doesn't fly either. Graendal knows how to completely conceal her ability to channel, her embrace of the Source, and her weaves and flows from other channelers, just like Lanfear and Mesaana do. She could have balefired the crap out of him with Aviendha barely on the other side of the wall, and Avi, or any other female channeler, wouldn't have felt a thing, any more than people felt Lanfear or Mesaana when they were doing their stuff in the Tower, surrounded by channelers.

 

So, all in order. Feel free to disagree with any of my points specifically. But I have directly addressed each of the quotes you supplied, in addition to referring to events in the published books.

[Terez]

OK. I'll do this in order.

 

Your original statement, as included in your immediately preceding post, is as follows...This quote doesn't talk about distance from Shayol Ghul at all.

 

It doesn't matter because there is a quote that does, and I provided it. It also details a limit/constraint for transmigration.

[Suttree]

Given Ishamael's death and transmigration from Tear the idea that Caemlyn is too far away from the Bore doesn't hold up.

 

If only a small amount of balefire was used it certainly does...

[Neophyte]

OK. I'll do this in order.

 

Your original statement, as included in your immediately preceding post, is as follows...This quote doesn't talk about distance from Shayol Ghul at all.

 

It doesn't matter because there is a quote that does, and I provided it. It also details a limit/constraint for transmigration.

 

What quote is that? You provided exactly one quote, the one in response to Matt Hatch's questions at a book signing in 2005.

 

I guess I'll have to copy and paste it to show you exactly how I addressed it.

 

The one and only quote you linked to:

 

MATT HATCH

 

You have been killing my theories left and right since I got here.

ROBERT JORDAN

 

MATT HATCH

 

Ouch. Okay, now that you have killed my black cord theory, are the oaths and covenants Forsaken make with the Dark One necessary for the Dark One to transmigrate a soul?

ROBERT JORDAN

 

They are not necessary, but he is not likely to do it for anyone who hasn't done, who hasn't sworn to him.

MATT HATCH

 

He doesn't have access to all souls to be able to grab any soul?

ROBERT JORDAN

 

No, no, no. Because of the Bore and the fact that the bore is best perceived, the Bore doesn't really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, it's simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere, or did, and uh, that's, when you know, Rahvin died, Rahvin is balefired out of time, slain out of time, cannot be reached, gone. Be'lal, (names someone else).

MATT HATCH

 

Well, then is there something unique about the Forsaken other than the fact that they are his favorites that he would transmigrate them, or be able to?

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Well, he would have been a lot less likely to in an earlier time when they were a lot of powerful knowledgeable channelers who were in his service. Essentially half the people in the world who could channel were on his side, during the War of the Shadow. Now he has very few, he's got the Black Ajah, and a few wilders, and some stuff I ain't going in to, but uh he doesn't have a lot, but he can't afford to waste assets.

MATT HATCH

 

Okay.

 

Now my quote, in response to that quote, with relevant quotes cross-indexed with color coding for your convenience:

 

Given Ishamael's death and transmigration from Tear the idea that Caemlyn is too far away from the Bore doesn't hold up. After all, Be'lal and Ishamael both died in Tear on the very same night - within minutes of one another. Tear is, I think, indisputably farther from Shayol Ghul than Caemlyn, and we have two loyal Forsaken killed there at effectively the same time. The only difference is balefire.

 

In the quote you've just provided, when RJ talks about those who "cannot be reached" he specifically says those "slain out of time" with direct reference to balefire - he has moved on from the distance thing. There is even an awkwardly transcribed grammatical break/transition. When he says that the Dark One "has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere" it seems clear that he's talking about other ways the Dark One can "grab [a] soul," like mindtrapping. I know that Matt's line of questioning was about transmigration, but I'm sure you know that RJ often went on tangents when answering questions - the subject you thought you were getting an answer on isn't always what he was talking about.

 

In addition, the bit about Graendal needing to use a "small amount of balefire" doesn't fly either. Graendal knows how to completely conceal her ability to channel, her embrace of the Source, and her weaves and flows from other channelers, just like Lanfear and Mesaana do. She could have balefired the crap out of him with Aviendha barely on the other side of the wall, and Avi, or any other female channeler, wouldn't have felt a thing, any more than people felt Lanfear or Mesaana when they were doing their stuff in the Tower, surrounded by channelers.

 

To reiterate. Nowhere in the quote which you provided, which I have reproduced here, did RJ say "distance affects the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls." He made two grammatically separate statements, as reproduced from Matt's or someone else's memory, namely:

 

1) "Because of the Bore and the fact that the bore is best perceived, the Bore doesn't really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, it's simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere"

 

We know there are things which can only be done at Shayol Ghul. Mindtrapping is one of them, and the chapter in which we get to see mindtrapping states that there are others.

 

Then RJ makes a transition: "or did, and uh, that's, when you know,"

 

And then makes another grammatically distinct and frankly very different statement

 

2) "Rahvin died, Rahvin is balefired out of time, slain out of time, cannot be reached, gone. Be'lal, (names someone else)."

 

Leaving aside for the moment the fact that this may not have been heard or recorded with precision, given the essentially blank ending, there is no grammatical reason to put the two statements together. They don't connect. Instead, what you have are two separate statements, talking about two different kinds of access to souls. The second part is talking about balefire and time. Not a thing about distance.

 

Nothing in that quote, or any other quote you've supplied or referred to, implies that distance from Shayol Ghul is in any way a factor in transmigrating souls. To quote RJ, from YOUR quote, "the Bore exists everywhere, it's simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily." Shayol Ghul is special, but there's no difference between Tar Valon or Illian or Bandar Eban or Seandar or Cold Rocks Hold or the Land of Madmen as far as the existence of the Bore is concerned.

 

Now, if you want to disagree with my interpretation, that's fine - feel free to refute the points I've made. But I do wish that you would stop pretending that I didn't address the one quote which you actually supplied, because I did. I even addressed it in the context of the other quotes which you referenced but did not actually supply.

 

Your responses are not disagreeing with what I've said; they're not even acknowledging that I've said anything. I find that rather rude, actually.

 

Edit: corrected for font problems.

[Neophyte]

Given Ishamael's death and transmigration from Tear the idea that Caemlyn is too far away from the Bore doesn't hold up.

 

If only a small amount of balefire was used it certainly does...

 

How does the amount of balefire affect anything to do with distance? It affects the amount of time in which a person is retroactively burned out of the Pattern.

 

Are you suggesting that it takes the Dark One a longer amount of time to reach a place farther from Shayol Ghul? The Bore is everywhere at once, and the Dark One doesn't exist in the physical universe. Shayol Ghul is special (RJ never really explains why ... what does a "thinness" in the Pattern even mean?) but it is pretty plain that while Shayol Ghul and its immediate environs are places of special access for plot purposes, the DO has equal access to the rest of the world without regard to distance. Every other effect that the Dark One has had has hit the whole world effectively simultaneously. The weather was screwed up in Ebou Dar as soon as it was messed up in Bandar Eban. Bubbles of evil hit Tear as easily as they hit Shienar.

 

If there is something special about where Asmodean was killed that restricted the Dark One's access, it has nothing to do with distance from Shayol Ghul. There are plenty of other ways in which Caemlyn could be special.

[Tiberius]

Wow. Super wall of quotations. I won't quote but refer to my previous post, which was not quoted in its entirety. Balefire CAN NOT be ressurected. Regardless of distance. And Ishy being in Tear, which is further from Camelyn, proves that a non balefire death can be undone from that distance. I'm proposing that the statement of both HOW and WHERE being important suggests that either A) balefire wasn't used to kill Asmo AND the location of his death made ressurection impossible (see TAR theory above) or B) Balefire was used and the WHERE is a place in time, not space (place on the tread of his life)

[Neophyte]

Not to belabor the point, but Jordan did leave a little official wiggle room in his assessment of balefire. This is in the quote from the Questions of the Week, here.

 

There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

I'd imagine that you can see the part I emphasized myself.

 

So, he did leave a tiny crack in the balefire=death equation. Personally, my opinion is that this was one of his caveats calculated to mess with people - everywhere else he was consistent that balefire made you "dead, dead, dead." But he did leave that small exception possible.

[Suttree]

Please delete

[Suttree]

Wow. Super wall of quotations. I won't quote but refer to my previous post, which was not quoted in its entirety. Balefire CAN NOT be ressurected. Regardless of distance.

 

Yes they can.

 

How does the amount of balefire affect anything to do with distance? It affects the amount of time in which a person is retroactively burned out of the Pattern.

 

Because the farther from Shayol Gul the less control the DO has, it's in the quote. The DO normally would be able to resurrect someone if only small amount of balefire is used. Since it happened so far away from SG he wasn't able to. Only a theory but it certainly is as valid as most others I have seen.

[Tiberius]

Ok. So he can. He still wouldn't have revived Asmo anyway. Right?

[Neophyte]

Ok. So he can. He still wouldn't have revived Asmo anyway. Right?

 

I agree. Even if he could have, why would the Dark One have wanted to revive Asmodean? That's why I speculated that the "how" was describing Asmodean's state at the time of death. How did he die? He died incompetent, and a traitor to the Dark One.

[Neophyte]

Wow. Super wall of quotations. I won't quote but refer to my previous post, which was not quoted in its entirety. Balefire CAN NOT be ressurected. Regardless of distance.

 

Yes they can.

 

How does the amount of balefire affect anything to do with distance? It affects the amount of time in which a person is retroactively burned out of the Pattern.

 

Because the farther from Shayol Gul the less control the DO has, it's in the quote. The DO normally would be able to resurrect someone if only small amount of balefire is used. Since it happened so far away from SG he wasn't able to. Only a theory but it certainly is as valid as most others I have seen.

 

That's simply not what RJ said. He said "the Bore doesn't really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, it's simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere."

 

He's not describing a setup in which a graduated system of slowly reducing influence radiates from Shayol Ghul. He's describing a two tiered system - Shayol Ghul, and the rest of the world. Shayol Ghul is special, for some metaphysical reason that I don't think can be described adequately. But there is no difference between other locations in the rest of the world, based on distance from Shayol Ghul. That is what "the Bore exists everywhere" means. Shayol Ghul is special and unusual. But the Dark One's access to the rest of the world is uniform.

[Suttree]

Wow. Super wall of quotations. I won't quote but refer to my previous post, which was not quoted in its entirety. Balefire CAN NOT be ressurected. Regardless of distance.

 

Yes they can.

 

How does the amount of balefire affect anything to do with distance? It affects the amount of time in which a person is retroactively burned out of the Pattern.

 

Because the farther from Shayol Gul the less control the DO has, it's in the quote. The DO normally would be able to resurrect someone if only small amount of balefire is used. Since it happened so far away from SG he wasn't able to. Only a theory but it certainly is as valid as most others I have seen.

 

That's simply not what RJ said. He said "the Bore doesn't really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, it's simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere."

 

He's not describing a setup in which a graduated system of slowly reducing influence radiates from Shayol Ghul. He's describing a two tiered system - Shayol Ghul, and the rest of the world. Shayol Ghul is special, for some metaphysical reason that I don't think can be described adequately. But there is no difference between other locations in the rest of the world, based on distance from Shayol Ghul. That is what "the Bore exists everywhere" means. Shayol Ghul is special and unusual. But the Dark One's access to the rest of the world is uniform.

 

And it is very easy to interpret that as the farther from SG the less access he has.

[Neophyte]

Wow. Super wall of quotations. I won't quote but refer to my previous post, which was not quoted in its entirety. Balefire CAN NOT be ressurected. Regardless of distance.

 

Yes they can.

 

How does the amount of balefire affect anything to do with distance? It affects the amount of time in which a person is retroactively burned out of the Pattern.

 

Because the farther from Shayol Gul the less control the DO has, it's in the quote. The DO normally would be able to resurrect someone if only small amount of balefire is used. Since it happened so far away from SG he wasn't able to. Only a theory but it certainly is as valid as most others I have seen.

 

That's simply not what RJ said. He said "the Bore doesn't really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, it's simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere."

 

He's not describing a setup in which a graduated system of slowly reducing influence radiates from Shayol Ghul. He's describing a two tiered system - Shayol Ghul, and the rest of the world. Shayol Ghul is special, for some metaphysical reason that I don't think can be described adequately. But there is no difference between other locations in the rest of the world, based on distance from Shayol Ghul. That is what "the Bore exists everywhere" means. Shayol Ghul is special and unusual. But the Dark One's access to the rest of the world is uniform.

 

And it is very easy to interpret that as the farther from SG the less access he has.

 

I don't see how - that's not what the words he said mean. He said the Dark One "has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere." He didn't say that the Dark One "has more access to people the closer they get to Shayol Ghul." Those are two different statements.

 

But I guess we'll have to leave it at that. There's not much else that can be done when, looking at exactly the same words, we see two completely different things.

[Suttree]

Wow. Super wall of quotations. I won't quote but refer to my previous post, which was not quoted in its entirety. Balefire CAN NOT be ressurected. Regardless of distance.

 

Yes they can.

 

How does the amount of balefire affect anything to do with distance? It affects the amount of time in which a person is retroactively burned out of the Pattern.

 

Because the farther from Shayol Gul the less control the DO has, it's in the quote. The DO normally would be able to resurrect someone if only small amount of balefire is used. Since it happened so far away from SG he wasn't able to. Only a theory but it certainly is as valid as most others I have seen.

 

That's simply not what RJ said. He said "the Bore doesn't really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, it's simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere."

 

He's not describing a setup in which a graduated system of slowly reducing influence radiates from Shayol Ghul. He's describing a two tiered system - Shayol Ghul, and the rest of the world. Shayol Ghul is special, for some metaphysical reason that I don't think can be described adequately. But there is no difference between other locations in the rest of the world, based on distance from Shayol Ghul. That is what "the Bore exists everywhere" means. Shayol Ghul is special and unusual. But the Dark One's access to the rest of the world is uniform.

 

And it is very easy to interpret that as the farther from SG the less access he has.

 

I don't see how - that's not what the words he said mean. He said the Dark One "has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere." He didn't say that the Dark One "has more access to people the closer they get to Shayol Ghul." Those are two different statements.

 

But I guess we'll have to leave it at that. There's not much else that can be done when, looking at exactly the same words, we see two completely different things.

 

 

Ermmm that is precisely the reason people interpret literature differently isn't it?

 

Look I'm not even saying I believe that theory but it is a valid interpretation.

 

I

[Neophyte]

Wow. Super wall of quotations. I won't quote but refer to my previous post, which was not quoted in its entirety. Balefire CAN NOT be ressurected. Regardless of distance.

 

Yes they can.

 

How does the amount of balefire affect anything to do with distance? It affects the amount of time in which a person is retroactively burned out of the Pattern.

 

Because the farther from Shayol Gul the less control the DO has, it's in the quote. The DO normally would be able to resurrect someone if only small amount of balefire is used. Since it happened so far away from SG he wasn't able to. Only a theory but it certainly is as valid as most others I have seen.

 

That's simply not what RJ said. He said "the Bore doesn't really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, it's simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere."

 

He's not describing a setup in which a graduated system of slowly reducing influence radiates from Shayol Ghul. He's describing a two tiered system - Shayol Ghul, and the rest of the world. Shayol Ghul is special, for some metaphysical reason that I don't think can be described adequately. But there is no difference between other locations in the rest of the world, based on distance from Shayol Ghul. That is what "the Bore exists everywhere" means. Shayol Ghul is special and unusual. But the Dark One's access to the rest of the world is uniform.

 

And it is very easy to interpret that as the farther from SG the less access he has.

 

I don't see how - that's not what the words he said mean. He said the Dark One "has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere." He didn't say that the Dark One "has more access to people the closer they get to Shayol Ghul." Those are two different statements.

 

But I guess we'll have to leave it at that. There's not much else that can be done when, looking at exactly the same words, we see two completely different things.

 

 

Ermmm that is precisely the reason people interpret literature differently isn't it?

 

Look I'm not even saying I believe that theory but it is a valid interpretation.

 

I

 

Um ... I suppose so, although generally in my experience reasonable differences in literary interpretation derive from symbolic levels other than basic semantics.

 

Given the combination of things that I've cited above, plus the fact that the only indications in the actual published books are that distance presents no obstacle, I'd say that hitching a metaphorical horse to a strained interpretation of one colloquially reported off-the-cuff book signing answer in the way that is being done here stretches my conception of the word "valid."

[Suttree]

Um ... I suppose so, although generally in my experience reasonable differences in literary interpretation derive from symbolic levels other than basic semantics.

 

Heh. I take it you've never seen what happens when lit department debates between graduate assistants devolve?

[Neophyte]

Heh. I take it you've never seen what happens when lit department debates between graduate assistants devolve?

 

 

LOL ... fair point. Though I did specify "reasonable differences." I almost always had the urge to smack the first chump who brought up Bakhtin or Saussure...

 

(That's not a shot at Bakhtin and Saussure, just the pretentious hacks (aka grad students) who feel they have to name-drop in discussions of semiotics.)

[Suttree]

Heh. I take it you've never seen what happens when lit department debates between graduate assistants devolve?

 

 

LOL ... fair point. Though I did specify "reasonable differences." I almost always had the urge to smack the first chump who brought up Bakhtin or Saussure...

 

(That's not a shot at Bakhtin and Saussure, just the pretentious hacks (aka grad students) who feel they have to name-drop in discussions of semiotics.)

 

Awesome. Great call mate, I might throw Peirce in there as well.

[Asgard Thorin]

Remember the massive BALESCREAM (love that word) at the beginning of KOD? The one that made Faile think she was going to desintegrate? That book is where all the really crazy stuff starts happening: the beetle vomiter and the Quicksand sinker in Shiota. The Tower, the Stone of Tear, and the palace in Caemlyn all have shifting corridors and dead people walking the halls, whatever he wiped out mustve been large or heavily populated.

 

I don't think those things had anything to do with the Balescream. I think those were just bubbles of evil, not the pattern re-writng itself. I don't actually think the DO's question was anything but rhetorical, like his question "WOULD YOU BE NAE'BLIS?" The answer to that is yes. Would Demandred destroy the pattern to achieve his boss' victory? The answer to that is no. That's why MoridIshy had to try to trick Rand into destroying the Wheel. Remember when they met in Rand's dreams in Book Twelve? Well, the part where Ishy says there will be no world to rule if the DO wins was the absolute truth.

[Lurk No More]

I love this debate guys. Thanks for all of your great thoughts and ideas. I did not know (or remember) the fact that that the bore is everywhere, but can be sensed more at SG. That kind of lends it's self to the multiverse theory. It's ike a Thinny in the Dark Tower... these other worlds are around us, and there are portals (stones) to them.

 

If I may however...hmmm... get back to my original quandry. Who has been using balefire and what is being balefired? What affect is it having on the world.

[DrZippy]

So it seems like we're still struggling with what RJ meant by both location and method of death when it comes to limitations on resurrection. We know of only four souls that have been resurrected:

 

1. Bath, killed by Green Man in the Blight

2. Agnior, killed by Rand with the Power (not balefire) in the Blight

3. Ishy, killed by Rand with the Power (not balefire) in TAR (not Tear)

4. Lanfear, killed by ??? in the realm of snakes and foxes

 

There have been Forsaken killed that have not been resurrected:

1. Osingar (sp) killed with the Power (not balefire) near Shadar Logoth.

2. Asmodean, killed by ??? with ??? in Camelyn.

3. Samuel (sp), killed (???) by ??? with ??? in Shadar Logoth.

 

Between these two groups, the only difference that is constant is that those who have been resurrected were killed "outside" of the real world. The Blight is known to be a warped reality because it does not exist in TAR. It is an area influenced by the DO, suggesting he has more power in the Blight than elsewhere. Thus, he may have access to souls that die within the Blight. In regards to Ishy's death, Rand kills him in TAR, and only after Ishy is dead does his body appear in the Stone and begin to decay. Like the DO and the Creator, TAR is the only other constant in all other worlds; I don't think it would be far fetched to suggest that the DO could access souls that die in TAR. Finally, Lanfear dies at some point, whether in the realm of snakes and foxes or after being transported back (maybe to SG?). Either location exists in a plan that is not in the real world, where the DO may have more power.

 

tldr version: by location, I believe that RJ meant the DO can only access souls that are released outside of the real world (i.e. TAR, the Blight, SG, snakes and foxes).

[Neophyte]

I love this debate guys. Thanks for all of your great thoughts and ideas. I did not know (or remember) the fact that that the bore is everywhere, but can be sensed more at SG. That kind of lends it's self to the multiverse theory. It's ike a Thinny in the Dark Tower... these other worlds are around us, and there are portals (stones) to them.

 

If I may however...hmmm... get back to my original quandry. Who has been using balefire and what is being balefired? What affect is it having on the world.

 

Other than the already mentioned 3 ripples that were described in Faile's pov in KoD chapter 5 (Edorion [the Dragonmount poster, not the character] called them Balescreams - that's possible but I don't know that it is confirmed), I don't think that any of the major effects that we've seen in Randland are or could be caused by limited or extensive use of balefire. The food spoilage, the weather changes, the dead walking, the changes in the buildings - they're all are too widespread to be caused by an otherwise unnoticed balefire campaign.

 

It may be that there was one very specific thing that the Dark One wanted balefired, and that caused the singular event in KoD chapter 5. If that is so, Demandred is more likely to be behind it than anyone else, but I don't think that we have enough information to even speculate usefully on what it was or why it was significant.

 

Just by way of making connections, though, Faile was in Malden when this happened. Balescreams don't travel infinitely, it seems ... so location could be significant here. Malden is in northern Altara ... pretty close to Murandy, actually. I know many people believe that Demandred has replaced or is controlling King Roedran - if Demandred is in Murandy, maybe he went there because the Dark One wanted him to balefire something, and he found it in Murandy.

 

Of course, I still have no idea what that thing would be or why the Dark One would want it balefired. So, this is merely pointing out a speculative connection.

[Neophyte]

So it seems like we're still struggling with what RJ meant by both location and method of death when it comes to limitations on resurrection. We know of only four souls that have been resurrected:

 

1. Bath, killed by Green Man in the Blight

2. Agnior, killed by Rand with the Power (not balefire) in the Blight

3. Ishy, killed by Rand with the Power (not balefire) in TAR (not Tear)

4. Lanfear, killed by ??? in the realm of snakes and foxes

 

There have been Forsaken killed that have not been resurrected:

1. Osingar (sp) killed with the Power (not balefire) near Shadar Logoth.

2. Asmodean, killed by ??? with ??? in Camelyn.

3. Samuel (sp), killed (???) by ??? with ??? in Shadar Logoth.

 

Between these two groups, the only difference that is constant is that those who have been resurrected were killed "outside" of the real world. The Blight is known to be a warped reality because it does not exist in TAR. It is an area influenced by the DO, suggesting he has more power in the Blight than elsewhere. Thus, he may have access to souls that die within the Blight. In regards to Ishy's death, Rand kills him in TAR, and only after Ishy is dead does his body appear in the Stone and begin to decay. Like the DO and the Creator, TAR is the only other constant in all other worlds; I don't think it would be far fetched to suggest that the DO could access souls that die in TAR. Finally, Lanfear dies at some point, whether in the realm of snakes and foxes or after being transported back (maybe to SG?). Either location exists in a plan that is not in the real world, where the DO may have more power.

 

tldr version: by location, I believe that RJ meant the DO can only access souls that are released outside of the real world (i.e. TAR, the Blight, SG, snakes and foxes).

 

That is a really good point about Ishamael's death being in Tel'aran'rhiod, not the physical environs of Tear. And Aginor and Balthamel didn't really die in the Blight any more than Ishamael died in Tear - they died in the Green Man's place, which seems to be connected to Tel'aran'rhiod as well.

 

Still we know that the Dark One has at least some access to souls that die normally in the real world, given Rand's vision of Kari al'Thor in TEotW. I doubt that Osan'gar would have been resurrected no matter what - he was told that this was his last chance. Same with Asmodean - I doubt the Dark One would transmigrate an incompetent traitor.

 

But it is interesting to think about. Maybe dying in Tel'aran'rhiod makes transmigration simpler? We don't really know whether the Eelfinn killed Lanfear or if she was taken somewhere else and killed. It would be interesting to find out if she died in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

Given that there is probably something funky in the relationship between Shayol Ghul, the Bore, and Tel'aran'rhiod (per Brandon's comment to Terez here there are "very good reasons" for him to RAFO a question on the subject) it is not impossible that you've hit on something significant there.

 

(Conveniently for me, that would also square with my assessment that physical distance in the real world has nothing to do with it ... lol)

[ksbsnowowl]

So it seems like we're still struggling with what RJ meant by both location and method of death when it comes to limitations on resurrection. We know of only four souls that have been resurrected:

 

1. Bath, killed by Green Man in the Blight

2. Agnior, killed by Rand with the Power (not balefire) in the Blight

3. Ishy, killed by Rand with the Power (not balefire) in TAR (not Tear)

4. Lanfear, killed by ??? in the realm of snakes and foxes

 

There have been Forsaken killed that have not been resurrected:

1. Osingar (sp) killed with the Power (not balefire) near Shadar Logoth.

2. Asmodean, killed by ??? with ??? in Camelyn.

3. Samuel (sp), killed (???) by ??? with ??? in Shadar Logoth.

 

Between these two groups, the only difference that is constant is that those who have been resurrected were killed "outside" of the real world. The Blight is known to be a warped reality because it does not exist in TAR. It is an area influenced by the DO, suggesting he has more power in the Blight than elsewhere. Thus, he may have access to souls that die within the Blight. In regards to Ishy's death, Rand kills him in TAR, and only after Ishy is dead does his body appear in the Stone and begin to decay. Like the DO and the Creator, TAR is the only other constant in all other worlds; I don't think it would be far fetched to suggest that the DO could access souls that die in TAR. Finally, Lanfear dies at some point, whether in the realm of snakes and foxes or after being transported back (maybe to SG?). Either location exists in a plan that is not in the real world, where the DO may have more power.

 

tldr version: by location, I believe that RJ meant the DO can only access souls that are released outside of the real world (i.e. TAR, the Blight, SG, snakes and foxes).

Excellent post, which finally starts to address all the factors we know about why Asmodean couldn’t be transmigrated. Though, I will take the opposite argument...

 

Your supposition that the Dark One can only transmigrate souls that die in “other realms” only deals with half of the “where and how” criteria for why Asmodean couldn’t be transmigrated. BOTH had to be fulfilled to prevent him from being brought back; thus, being killed in the normal world by itself would not prevent transmigration.

 

What I am going to suggest is admittedly a lot of supposition without any real quotable facts behind it, but I'll just put it out there. What I'm getting at is that being in T'A'R is one of the two reasons that Asmodean couldn't be resurrected. The others who did die in Tel'aran'rhiod were able to be transmigrated because they lacked the other component: What if Asmodean was killed with the True Power?

 

The first is admittedly a rather large stretch to be true, but suppose Graendal created a physical gateway to TAR just at the door frame of the door to the pantry. Asmodean opens the door to go in and find a bottle of wine, and takes a step through into TAR. He doesn't have time to note this, as he is immediately killed.

 

As I said, this is just pure speculation without any hard evidence, so it very likely is wrong. The only slight bit of evidence we have is that no one ever found Asmo's body, or any evidence someone had been killed in the pantry. But, there are other ways to dispose of his body and/or blood, of course.

 

The second point though, I think bears some thought. By this point all the Forsaken still had access to the True Power, and what better way to make absolutely sure that none of the channelers in the palace can feel you channeling (especially since a man would feel the goosebumps associated with channeling Saidar).

 

Sidetrack for a second... that brings me to a question: if one of the female Forsaken is masking her ability to channel, can a male channeler in her presence still feel the goosebumps? Hmm...

 

Back on topic: the other posibility is that your idea is correct, and the DO has a harder time transmigrating souls from the normal world. Asmo not being in TAR, while also being killed with the True Power, could be why he couldn't be transmigrated.

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts.