How has Demandred "unleashed the balefire" in your opinion?

[Luckers]

As a side note to this, there are going to be new Dreadlords right? So doesn't that mean that some of the vacant slots in the Forsaken are going to get filled with new faces?

 

It certainly is possible although I'm surprised that we haven't seen any real options. There is Taim of course but the only other real possibility was Alviarin and she got that "lesser" chosen mark that was compared to a "dog tag".

 

 

Dreadlords were both men and women in the past so chances are they are just the Black Ajah

 

I think Suttree was replying to the end of the sentence about slots in the Forsaken also being filled.

[racon]

Let me first say that in no way shape or form and I an avid forum activist standing up for my idol. However I do find it amusing that someone with poor grammar skills has the balls to comment on an published author's intelligence or perceived lack of intelligence to write about time travel.

English is my third language, which explains bad grammar. Btw. What has good or bad grammar anything to do with intelligence or the lack of it?

 

A great many stories have plot holes and gaps in credibility, but they are meant to entertain, not to have someone with OCD nit pick about each error.

 

Anyway - isnt the whole problem with Gateways that you have to know where you are going to open one? So Demandred couldnt just open one in Rand's bedroom unless he was intimately familiar with the place...hmm unless that term "master of the blade" is meant to be said really fast and has a whole different meaning....haha.

 

The story line had always had its share of DO agents and Forsaken in disguise, hovering near Rand. I would have just wanted Jordan to at least once

explain some protective weaves Rand uses every night to prevent gating / other nasty tricks when he is the most vulnerable.

[DrZippy]

lol. How about we go to the how and where quote itself? Much simpler.

 

Ted Herman

Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that?

 

Robert Jordan

The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of two factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.

 

Footnote

The referred to earlier question was asked at the NYC Barnes & Noble signing on the Crossroads of Twilight tour.

That statement by RJ is fascinating. Until now, I was thinking that as long as you didn't get balefired, the DO could bring you back. It looks like RJ suggested this is not true. So, under what circumstances can someone's soul be ressurected? If we can identify those constraints, maybe we can get a clue on how any ressurrection may happen in aMoL. This may be worth it's own thread.

[thisguy]

lol. How about we go to the how and where quote itself? Much simpler.

 

Ted Herman

Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that?

 

Robert Jordan

The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of two factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.

 

Footnote

The referred to earlier question was asked at the NYC Barnes & Noble signing on the Crossroads of Twilight tour.

That statement by RJ is fascinating. Until now, I was thinking that as long as you didn't get balefired, the DO could bring you back. It looks like RJ suggested this is not true. So, under what circumstances can someone's soul be ressurected? If we can identify those constraints, maybe we can get a clue on how any ressurrection may happen in aMoL. This may be worth it's own thread.

 

I have a question - are there any examples of the DO bringing back a non-DF? If not, I'd guess that Asmo may have truly left the Dark side at that point - not to say he's a good guy just not a DF.

[Cybertrolloc]

That quote is about half of the 200 page headache that is the latest Asmodean thread. (It's in the structured WoT discussion forum.)

 

From the books we have little reliable about the DO and what he can/can't do. You can try to crossword puzzle author quotes for a bit more, I don't bother. (Note Graendal thinks about mirror worlds where the DO's touch is light or non-existent before SH takes her away.)

[thisguy]

Well, looking at RJ's quote again, and having just now finished a book 5 reread, it's possible he was balefired. The where he died doesn't make sense as Mat and Aviendha were dead at Caemlyn and brought back BUT maybe the WHERE is by Rand's side..... maybe he couldn't touch him as he was under Rand's protection....

[Tiberius]

Maybe he was in TAR? If she had stepped out of the dream world instead of using a gateway to avoid setting off the traps. Snatch Asmo, yank him into TAR and balefire him there. That would fulfil the "where" and the "how". Perhaps he can't reach a soul from dream land.

 

 

[Terez]

I always figured it was a combination of 1) distance from Shayol Ghul and 2) small amount of balefire. That would explain it using only the info in the extended RJ quote on 'limits and constraints' from the QOTW. And Graendal, knowing at least one female channeler was nearby, would have reason to use a small amount of balefire.

[Morsker]

"Distance from Shayol Ghul" also explains why Be'lal stayed dead, even though Moiraine is only strong enough to remove a few seconds from the Pattern. Tear is a long way from Shayol Ghul.

[Terez]

I think a few seconds might be enough (and might even be a mistaken assumption on Moiraine's part). Her balefire seemed a lot bigger than what Rand used on the Shadowspawn in Caemlyn, for example. (itty bitty threads) That's probably what RJ meant when he said 'small amount'. Rand is a lot stronger than Moiraine, but he was making it as weak as he could manage so as to not kill anything but Shadowspawn.

[Tiberius]

I always figured it was a combination of 1) distance from Shayol Ghul and 2) small amount of balefire. That would explain it using only the info in the extended RJ quote on 'limits and constraints' from the QOTW. And Graendal, knowing at least one female channeler was nearby, would have reason to use a small amount of balefire.

I'm not sure the distance part works since Ishamael was in Tear and got res'd. But the amount of balefire would make sense if it only burned Asmo back a few milliseconds. Unless the dark one was waiting and ready to pounce on his soul, assuming the DO even wanted him brought back to life. He was a traitor after all.

 

Edit: but isn't it confirmed that not even the lord of the grave can reach back in time? And didn't Moridin confirm the only way to keep a forsaken dead was balefire?

[csarmi]

Is it possible to correct the typo in the thread's name?

[Terez]

I always figured it was a combination of 1) distance from Shayol Ghul and 2) small amount of balefire. That would explain it using only the info in the extended RJ quote on 'limits and constraints' from the QOTW. And Graendal, knowing at least one female channeler was nearby, would have reason to use a small amount of balefire.

I'm not sure the distance part works since Ishamael was in Tear and got res'd.

 

But he wasn't balefired. RJ said it was not one or the other, but both.

[Cybertrolloc]

It's pretty hard to reconcile the endings of the first 3 books with what's explained about how things work.

 

For book 3, presumably that fight was somewhere that acted like TaR and meshes with what happens to Perrin who thinks he's in Wolf Dream (TaR) and Eg (also TaR for pretty sure), but it's not clear how Rand and Ishy get there and especially out other than magic.

 

I reluctantly had to go into camp Ares on that quote. Is there actually more than one instance of him giving that answer?

[Tiberius]

I always figured it was a combination of 1) distance from Shayol Ghul and 2) small amount of balefire. That would explain it using only the info in the extended RJ quote on 'limits and constraints' from the QOTW. And Graendal, knowing at least one female channeler was nearby, would have reason to use a small amount of balefire.

I'm not sure the distance part works since Ishamael was in Tear and got res'd.

 

But he wasn't balefired. RJ said it was not one or the other, but both.

Yes. I was only pointing out that distance may not be a factor. And no one who's been balefired has come back from the dead. What I was poorly trying to say is that if it has to be BOTH, then the method was not balefire. I'm proposing that anyone who enters TAR in the flesh is subject to death beyond normal death, the final death as Hopper would put it. So the how (being yanked into TAR and killed by any means) and the where (TAR) could be symantically the same.

[thisguy]

It's pretty hard to reconcile the endings of the first 3 books with what's explained about how things work.

 

For book 3, presumably that fight was somewhere that acted like TaR and meshes with what happens to Perrin who thinks he's in Wolf Dream (TaR) and Eg (also TaR for pretty sure), but it's not clear how Rand and Ishy get there and especially out other than magic.

 

I reluctantly had to go into camp Ares on that quote. Is there actually more than one instance of him giving that answer?

I'm not sure if I'm following you right. The end of book 3, Rand is in T'Rond. He entered in the flesh. Same as at the end of book 5 - He and Ravin enter T'Rond in the flesh. Nynaeve is told that by Moghedien.

[Terez]

I always figured it was a combination of 1) distance from Shayol Ghul and 2) small amount of balefire. That would explain it using only the info in the extended RJ quote on 'limits and constraints' from the QOTW. And Graendal, knowing at least one female channeler was nearby, would have reason to use a small amount of balefire.

I'm not sure the distance part works since Ishamael was in Tear and got res'd.

 

But he wasn't balefired. RJ said it was not one or the other, but both.

Yes. I was only pointing out that distance may not be a factor.

 

It is a factor because RJ said it was.

 

What I was poorly trying to say is that if it has to be BOTH, then the method was not balefire.

 

Unless the amount of balefire was small enough so as to not prevent transmigration, as RJ also said.

[Neophyte]

I always figured it was a combination of 1) distance from Shayol Ghul and 2) small amount of balefire. That would explain it using only the info in the extended RJ quote on 'limits and constraints' from the QOTW. And Graendal, knowing at least one female channeler was nearby, would have reason to use a small amount of balefire.

I'm not sure the distance part works since Ishamael was in Tear and got res'd.

 

But he wasn't balefired. RJ said it was not one or the other, but both.

Yes. I was only pointing out that distance may not be a factor.

 

It is a factor because RJ said it was.

 

 

Just for the record ... RJ didn't actually say that distance was a factor. He said that location was a factor. There may some unique property to Caemlyn that we aren't aware of, that has nothing to do with its distance relative to another place. How and where, not how and how far.

[thisguy]

I always figured it was a combination of 1) distance from Shayol Ghul and 2) small amount of balefire. That would explain it using only the info in the extended RJ quote on 'limits and constraints' from the QOTW. And Graendal, knowing at least one female channeler was nearby, would have reason to use a small amount of balefire.

I'm not sure the distance part works since Ishamael was in Tear and got res'd.

 

But he wasn't balefired. RJ said it was not one or the other, but both.

Yes. I was only pointing out that distance may not be a factor.

 

It is a factor because RJ said it was.

 

 

Just for the record ... RJ didn't actually say that distance was a factor. He said that location was a factor. There may some unique property to Caemlyn that we aren't aware of, that has nothing to do with its distance relative to another place. How and where, not how and how far.

That's true. I was thinking it could be because he was close to Rand - or under Rand's protection at that point.

[Terez]

I always figured it was a combination of 1) distance from Shayol Ghul and 2) small amount of balefire. That would explain it using only the info in the extended RJ quote on 'limits and constraints' from the QOTW. And Graendal, knowing at least one female channeler was nearby, would have reason to use a small amount of balefire.

I'm not sure the distance part works since Ishamael was in Tear and got res'd.

 

But he wasn't balefired. RJ said it was not one or the other, but both.

Yes. I was only pointing out that distance may not be a factor.

 

It is a factor because RJ said it was.

 

 

Just for the record ... RJ didn't actually say that distance was a factor. He said that location was a factor.

 

You are talking about the Asmodean quote. I am talking about this quote.

[Neophyte]

I always figured it was a combination of 1) distance from Shayol Ghul and 2) small amount of balefire. That would explain it using only the info in the extended RJ quote on 'limits and constraints' from the QOTW. And Graendal, knowing at least one female channeler was nearby, would have reason to use a small amount of balefire.

I'm not sure the distance part works since Ishamael was in Tear and got res'd.

 

But he wasn't balefired. RJ said it was not one or the other, but both.

Yes. I was only pointing out that distance may not be a factor.

 

It is a factor because RJ said it was.

 

 

Just for the record ... RJ didn't actually say that distance was a factor. He said that location was a factor.

 

You are talking about the Asmodean quote. I am talking about this quote.

 

Given Ishamael's death and transmigration from Tear the idea that Caemlyn is too far away from the Bore doesn't hold up. After all, Be'lal and Ishamael both died in Tear on the very same night - within minutes of one another. Tear is, I think, indisputably farther from Shayol Ghul than Caemlyn, and we have two loyal Forsaken killed there at effectively the same time. The only difference is balefire.

 

In the quote you've just provided, when RJ talks about those who "cannot be reached" he specifically says those "slain out of time" with direct reference to balefire - he has moved on from the distance thing. There is even an awkwardly transcribed grammatical break/transition. When he says that the Dark One "has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere" it seems clear that he's talking about other ways the Dark One can "grab [a] soul," like mindtrapping. I know that Matt's line of questioning was about transmigration, but I'm sure you know that RJ often went on tangents when answering questions - the subject you thought you were getting an answer on isn't always what he was talking about.

 

In addition, the bit about Graendal needing to use a "small amount of balefire" doesn't fly either. Graendal knows how to completely conceal her ability to channel, her embrace of the Source, and her weaves and flows from other channelers, just like Lanfear and Mesaana do. She could have balefired the crap out of him with Aviendha barely on the other side of the wall, and Avi, or any other female channeler, wouldn't have felt a thing, any more than people felt Lanfear or Mesaana when they were doing their stuff in the Tower, surrounded by channelers.

[Terez]

I always figured it was a combination of 1) distance from Shayol Ghul and 2) small amount of balefire. That would explain it using only the info in the extended RJ quote on 'limits and constraints' from the QOTW. And Graendal, knowing at least one female channeler was nearby, would have reason to use a small amount of balefire.

I'm not sure the distance part works since Ishamael was in Tear and got res'd.

 

But he wasn't balefired. RJ said it was not one or the other, but both.

Yes. I was only pointing out that distance may not be a factor.

 

It is a factor because RJ said it was.

 

 

Just for the record ... RJ didn't actually say that distance was a factor. He said that location was a factor.

 

You are talking about the Asmodean quote. I am talking about this quote.

 

Given Ishamael's death and transmigration from Tear the idea that Caemlyn is too far away from the Bore doesn't hold up.

 

Like I said, RJ said it was 'not one or the other, but both'. That means that location was not enough on its own to prevent transmigration, and the method of killing him was also not enough on its own to prevent transmigration. But I am repeating myself here.

[Stone Rocks Hold]

Not to oversimplify things, but couldn't location just mean "in the light"?

[Neophyte]

I always figured it was a combination of 1) distance from Shayol Ghul and 2) small amount of balefire. That would explain it using only the info in the extended RJ quote on 'limits and constraints' from the QOTW. And Graendal, knowing at least one female channeler was nearby, would have reason to use a small amount of balefire.

I'm not sure the distance part works since Ishamael was in Tear and got res'd.

 

But he wasn't balefired. RJ said it was not one or the other, but both.

Yes. I was only pointing out that distance may not be a factor.

 

It is a factor because RJ said it was.

 

 

Just for the record ... RJ didn't actually say that distance was a factor. He said that location was a factor.

 

You are talking about the Asmodean quote. I am talking about this quote.

 

Given Ishamael's death and transmigration from Tear the idea that Caemlyn is too far away from the Bore doesn't hold up.

 

Like I said, RJ said it was 'not one or the other, but both'. That means that location was not enough on its own to prevent transmigration, and the method of killing him was also not enough on its own to prevent transmigration. But I am repeating myself here.

 

You're mixing your quotes here, Terez. The one where RJ says that both how and where Asmodean died matter doesn't ascribe importance to distance, but to location. That is the first thing I addressed. Then you said I was addressing the wrong quote, and supplied this one instead. So I dealt with that one.

 

In neither case is distance from Shayol Ghul a meaningful factor in the Dark One's ability to transmigrate a soul.

 

Now, if you're arguing that Amsodean was killed with something other than balefire, I'm actually OK with that. "How" he died may not even refer to the method of his death, but his state at death, i.e. the fact that he had been cut off from the Dark One. "How" can be used to describe states of being as well as methods - "How did he die? He died a traitor to the Dark One."

 

But the "small amount of balefire because Graendal had to hide plus distance from Shayol Ghul" thing just doesn't hold water. Graendal could hide perfectly well, and we've seen from the published material in the books that distance from Shayol Ghul is not an obstacle to transmigration.

[Terez]

I always figured it was a combination of 1) distance from Shayol Ghul and 2) small amount of balefire. That would explain it using only the info in the extended RJ quote on 'limits and constraints' from the QOTW. And Graendal, knowing at least one female channeler was nearby, would have reason to use a small amount of balefire.

I'm not sure the distance part works since Ishamael was in Tear and got res'd.

 

But he wasn't balefired. RJ said it was not one or the other, but both.

Yes. I was only pointing out that distance may not be a factor.

 

It is a factor because RJ said it was.

 

 

Just for the record ... RJ didn't actually say that distance was a factor. He said that location was a factor.

 

You are talking about the Asmodean quote. I am talking about this quote.

 

Given Ishamael's death and transmigration from Tear the idea that Caemlyn is too far away from the Bore doesn't hold up.

 

Like I said, RJ said it was 'not one or the other, but both'. That means that location was not enough on its own to prevent transmigration, and the method of killing him was also not enough on its own to prevent transmigration. But I am repeating myself here.

 

You're mixing your quotes here, Terez. The one where RJ says that both how and where Asmodean died matter doesn't ascribe importance to distance, but to location.

 

I know what it says. Look back to what I first said on the topic. (It's all quoted above.) The comment about Shayol Ghul is the only mention of anything having to do with location that RJ listed among the limits and constraints of transmigration. I just said that the distance from Shayol Ghul and the small amount of balefire are the only things among those listed by RJ that can possibly answer the question.

 

 

That is the first thing I addressed. Then you said I was addressing the wrong quote, and supplied this one instead. So I dealt with that one.

 

No, you didn't.