Why can't shadowspawn Travel?

[avernite]

I have been pondering this issue, and I don't quite get it. I also think it's slightly bigger than a short question.

 

 

So, what do we know? Trollocs and Myrddraal, as well as possibly Draghkar etcetera cannot Travel. Oddly, the Gholam seemed to have no problem with entering a Gateway, and could therefore be assumed to be able to Travel (unless the fatal point is exiting the gateway).

 

Why is that? I have only a vague idea that the Trollocs/Myrddraal are sort of 'twisted' threads/souls in the pattern... and when they Travel the pattern tries to correct the 'twist' because it's sort of restarting the thread at a new point. The Gholam, being not quite soulled, is innately a Gholam and cannot be reverted to some other point.

 

However, this isn't quite satisfying; the twisting is due to the TP, yet it seems a TP gateway doesn't shield against it (or the Shadow would use them), and we have no actual evidence that there's anything like a restarting of a thread involved in Travelling.

 

An alternative explanation is that the Trollocs/Myrddraal are constantly tainted by the TP, and in the moment of Travel are somehow cleanes by the OP, or disconnected from the TP... but Forsaken properly keep their ties to the DO when they Travel.

 

Anyone have a better idea?

 

Previous discussion I could find http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2592 says it's because they are artificial constructs, somewhat supporting idea 1 but I find the conclusions a bit, well, meh. Especially because the Gholam stepped into a gate and lived.

[Suttree]

I have been pondering this issue, and I don't quite get it. I also think it's slightly bigger than a short question.

 

 

So, what do we know? Trollocs and Myrddraal, as well as possibly Draghkar etcetera cannot Travel. Oddly, the Gholam seemed to have no problem with entering a Gateway, and could therefore be assumed to be able to Travel (unless the fatal point is exiting the gateway).

 

Why is that? I have only a vague idea that the Trollocs/Myrddraal are sort of 'twisted' threads/souls in the pattern... and when they Travel the pattern tries to correct the 'twist' because it's sort of restarting the thread at a new point. The Gholam, being not quite soulled, is innately a Gholam and cannot be reverted to some other point.

 

However, this isn't quite satisfying; the twisting is due to the TP, yet it seems a TP gateway doesn't shield against it (or the Shadow would use them), and we have no actual evidence that there's anything like a restarting of a thread involved in Travelling.

 

An alternative explanation is that the Trollocs/Myrddraal are constantly tainted by the TP, and in the moment of Travel are somehow cleanes by the OP, or disconnected from the TP... but Forsaken properly keep their ties to the DO when they Travel.

 

Anyone have a better idea?

 

Previous discussion I could find http://www.theorylan...read.php?t=2592 says it's because they are artificial constructs, somewhat supporting idea 1 but I find the conclusions a bit, well, meh. Especially because the Gholam stepped into a gate and lived.

 

Yes trolloc souls are twisted and they can only be reborn again as trollocs. That doesn't have to do with the construct traveling issue however as Nym can not travel either and their souls are merely "borrowed" from the pool.

[Durinax]

I think it is because of how aginor did it, trollocs and myrdraal are in effect unstable genetically, that is why you get such huge differences in appearance and such. This instability causes their genetic material to rip apart because it does not belong naturally.

 

Gholam on the other hand have basically only human genes and are a result of much later experimentation, this caused them to have very stable genetics, that won't rip apart.

 

Or at least thats how I look at it

[Sasha Grayes]

no explanation other than it would be very easy for trollocs to attack around Randland if they can travel. thus would have ended the story by the 2nd or the 3rd chapter of EotW. lol.

[Roxinos]

I'm going to go with bahotin. There are quirks in a fantasy world that arise from the inherent laws of the world. That is, as the writer is thinking up how the world works he/she encounters various logical boundaries and allowances that help shape the world.

 

Then there are quirks in a fantasy world that arise because they are necessary. This is definitely one of those quirks which arose because it's necessary.

 

That doesn't mean it's a bad thing. It's just a different kind of law of the world. One to which any explanation comes after the creation of the law.

[Kamin_Majere]

Yeah have to go with Deus ex Machina on this one. The world would have ended with the age of legends if the chosen could have instantly transported millions of trollocs where ever they wanted to. There would have never even been an Eye of the World novel.

 

As to the "logical" in world reason. I'd probably say it's to do with them being living constructs. I believe what ever means the people in the Age of Legends used to make Trollocs/Nym/etc somehow made them incompatable with stepping ourside the pattern and the process of doing so (or maybe the process of stepping back in from that) destroys them

[avernite]

So we must conclude a Gholam has no soul, or that it's all instability in the genes?

 

If so I still don't quite get why a TP gateway wouldn't work, since it would possibly support the frail bonds forged by the true power in creating trollocs...

 

(And yes, the 'because they have to have the restriction otherwise the story sucks' is probably the reason, but I'm looking for a reasonable excuse here :) )

[Kamin_Majere]

Well technically if you want to look at it in the realm of magi-science that the books have.

 

We don't know that Shadow-spawn can't enter a gateway... we only know that they cannot exit one with out being dead. So I guess theoretically even the Gholam would have died if it tried to leave the gateway it was pushed into (assuming of course that the skimming portal is the exact same as a gateway, and leaving by the way you entered counted)

 

There is unfortunately no way to test this on our side.

[Suttree]

Well technically if you want to look at it in the realm of magi-science that the books have.

 

We don't know that Shadow-spawn can't enter a gateway... we only know that they cannot exit one with out being dead. So I guess theoretically even the Gholam would have died if it tried to leave the gateway it was pushed into (assuming of course that the skimming portal is the exact same as a gateway, and leaving by the way you entered counted)

 

There is unfortunately no way to test this on our side.

 

 

Gholam are different than other constructs...

 

Interview: Nov 16th, 2010

 

Paris Signing Report - Jonathan B (Paraphrased)

Jonathan B

 

We discussed the gholam; if someone had pushed it through a gateway, would it have just died?

Brandon Sanderson

 

Brandon said that gholam CAN go THROUGH gateways (from one place to another). Gholam are Shadowspawn of a more perfected kind. It would have been way too easy to kill if you just needed to shove it through a gateway (to another place). However, falling through the skimming gateway for a few minutes did kill the gholam and it is really dead and it's not going to show up again. This makes me wonder now if one of Rand/Logain's Deathgates would have killed it but I didn't think to ask at the time.

[Kamin_Majere]

Ah I didn't know about that quote from Brandon. Cool. So it has to do with their creation methods then and apparently there are different levels of Shadow-spawn. Interesting.

 

So is it true that Nym couldn't use gateways? I was under the impression that constructs in general could not use them, but if some can that does mean that there is something "wrong" with Trollocs and myrdaal.

 

Also is Gholam could use gateways, they really were insanely good assassins, and rightfully feared by the light. Forsaken gates one to your house in the middle of the night and you would probably be dead with no hope of escape.

[Durinax]

Also is Gholam could use gateways, they really were insanely good assassins, and rightfully feared by the light. Forsaken gates one to your house in the middle of the night and you would probably be dead with no hope of escape.

imagine the havok if he was set loose in the WT

[Suttree]

Ah I didn't know about that quote from Brandon. Cool. So it has to do with their creation methods then and apparently there are different levels of Shadow-spawn. Interesting.

 

So is it true that Nym couldn't use gateways? I was under the impression that constructs in general could not use them, but if some can that does mean that there is something "wrong" with Trollocs and myrdaal.

 

Also is Gholam could use gateways, they really were insanely good assassins, and rightfully feared by the light. Forsaken gates one to your house in the middle of the night and you would probably be dead with no hope of escape.

 

Nym can not either...

 

Interview: Oct 21st, 2005

 

KOD Signing Report - Tim Kington (Paraphrased)

Question

 

Why can't Shadowspawn pass through gateways?

Robert Jordan

 

It's because they're artificial constructs. They can't tolerate the passage.

Question

 

So would a Nym have the same problem?

Robert Jordan

 

Yes.

 

[jsbrads]

I always suspected that was intentional, Aginor put that in as a security measure, as much as he wanted to serve DO, he probably also didn't want to be attack by them in the night. This doesn't contradict RJ's statement

 

gholam should have been fine with skimming as he is durable enough to withstand a stasis pod, which is not only out of time, but out of space as well.

Tho BS did say the gholam died a few minutes in the fall, and any quoted statement is accepted as gospel here, i do think he misspoke, and the gholam is alive and falling for all eternity, BS may have tried to quickly state that the gholam is gone and will never return, by saying he is dead when a more accurate statement according to my theory would have been: he is falling for all eternity, there is no way to ever get him back and return him to the storyline, OR he is dead...

 

Yes, I am a heretic and my opinion is blasphemy.

[Vardar]

Nym have souls? Sutt where did you read that one?

[jsbrads]

Nym have souls? Sutt where did you read that one?

 

I don't think it was in book, was in Q&A

[Suttree]

Nym have souls? Sutt where did you read that one?

 

Interview: Dec 9th, 2002

 

Wotmania and Dragonmount Q&A

Question

 

 

How does the idea of souls apply to constructs such as Nym and Trollocs? Could either of them be reborn?

Robert Jordan

 

 

To whoever put this one forward, this is one of the best questions I've ever gotten! Nym and Trollocs both have souls, and either could be reborn, but since Nym were a pure construct (i.e. each of them was individually made, like hand-crafting) a Nym would not be reborn as a Nym. You might say that a Nym's soul was borrowed temporarily from the supply of souls awaiting rebirth. A Trolloc, however, bears a twisted, or corrupted soul, and would be reborn as a Trolloc. Though frankly, a Trolloc's soul is such a pitiful thing, it hardly seems worth calling a soul.

[Vardar]

Well that's pretty sad. But thanks!