Callandor

[Luckers]

No, he thought that when feeling how much of the Power Taim could wield, saying Taim held only slightly less than he, and that it was enough to lay waste to the farm for miles around in a matter of minutes.

[aevogt]

maybe we're looking at this te wrong way.  maybe the difference is that an angreal multiplies the amount of a particular channeler while a sa'angreal has a fixed amount, and that is why a sa'angreal is so much more powerful.

 

ex - the brooch elayne finds multiplies the channelers maximum strength by an unknown factor.  If Lanfear is a 21 on the Jordan scale and Nynaeve is a 17, that would increase Elayne or Aviendha from a 15 without it to a 34 with the angreal,  but would increase Nynaeve to a 38 or Lanfear (pre captivity) to a 48.  This would kind of play into the idea that someone's innate abilities could only be multiplied so many times before maxing out.

 

A sa angreal, like Callandor or the CK, is manufactured differently and therefore allows a set amount, regardless of the channelers innate strength, provided they are strong enough in the first place. 

 

That would explain why two channelers with different strengths using the same sa'angreal appear to draw the same amount of the power but an angreal appears to be dependent on strength.

 

 

 

[mralexcummings]

I might not be remembering correctly but isn't it damn near immpossible for Rand to be cut off when he has embraced? Not to mention with the extra boost? Also he knows how to break free and with that much focus and power he would probably still all 13

[Bob T Dwarf]

In the general sense, no single, unaided channeler would be strong enough to shield him once he had seized Saidin.  Lanfear nearly managed it more than once without any power-ups.  ( Just occured to me that those are precisely what all the variety of ter/sa/angreal are. )

 

A full Circle of 13 is another matter.  And the real answer is that we don't know until that is attempted.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

rand's special 'breaking free' technique only applies when the shield weave is tied off.

[Bob T Dwarf]

We aren't talking about "breaking free" from an already emplaced shield.

 

We're speculating on whether a Full Circle of Thirteen could emplace a shield to begin with IF Rand had already seized the Source.

[bRANDan]

When the Aes Sedai abducted him they used a circle of thirteen. Was he not already embracing the Source then? I thought I remember him describing it as a sluice inexorably closing, or some such?

[aevogt]

Brandon is correct.  They cut him off in the taking at the end of LOC.  This was while he was in possession of the fat little man angreal.

 

While holding Callandor, I doubt a circle of 13 could do the same.

[Bob T Dwarf]

bRANDan -

 

You are mostly correct. 

The shield sliding between him and the True Source was like the closing of a sluice gate; the flows of saidin vanished leaving only the filthy residue of the taint.

 

There was a total of 15 women in the room at the time.  How many of them it took to emplace that shield is unknown.

 

aevogt -

 

He had the little fatman while meeting with the Salidar embassy in Caemlyn.  They tried to loom and menace via a group Mirror of Mists, but they never tried to shield him.

[bRANDan]

While holding Callandor, I doubt a circle of 13 could do the same.

 

As do I, seeing as how Guire Amalasan could fend off six AS at once, and with the facts that:

1) An angreal could multiply a channelers strength by a factor of three(as per Luckers hypothesis, which I think is pretty accurate)

2)Callandor is undoubtedly stronger than the strongest angreal,

3) Rand is at least as powerful if not more powerful than Guire Amalasan

Given these facts I would say that without a doubt a circle of 13 could not shield Rand when he has Callandor. Even if all 13 were Lanfear's strength, I doubt the circle could cut him off. Callandor would have to increase a channelers strength by a factor of 11 to ensure a victory over the theoretical "Lanfear Circle". Rand, when trying to gauge the Power Callandor allowed him to wield, started off at "strength of 7 asha'man" and went up to " a hundred?". So I think Callandor has a good chance of being above the 11x mark.

 

How many of them it took to emplace that shield is unknown.

 

True, though Rand believes it was the whole thirteen, as when he is shielded they throw back there hoods, I think he says something like "of course, two to bind me, and 13 to shield". As the maximum number in a female-only circle is 13, then 13 is the maximum, it could have only been 10, but I doubt the AS would have taken any chances. Either way I think that answers the question if a circle of 13 could shield him while he was holding the Source

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

He had the little fatman while meeting with the Salidar embassy in Caemlyn.  They tried to loom and menace via a group Mirror of Mists, but they never tried to shield him.

 

um...he still had the angreal when he met the tower embassy...

[Bob T Dwarf]

I found no mention of it in Cairhien.  I think it was back in it's hidey-hole in the wall in Caemlyn.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

you'll notice he's looking for it in the beginning of the crown of swords...

[Bob T Dwarf]

You may be right.  I only took a quick look at the beginning of CoS and didn't see anything about it though.

 

He certainly wasn't drawing on it when he was shielded.

[Juggler]

Didn't Cadsuanne say Callandor was flawed and could only safely be controlled by a Man linked with 2 women and a women leading the flows. E.g if Rand was wearing the Black male a'dam

[Guest durram laddel cham]

Good thought, but they aren't linked then. The women won't be holding Saidar when they use the a'dam.

[Bob T Dwarf]

One other thing to ponder -

 

When The Gang of Four made their plan to ambush Rand when he attacked Sam, they obviously thought three things leading to one conclusion( they may have been wrong, of course ):

1.  There was a chance to capture rather than kill Rand.

2.  Capture would have necessitated shielding him.

3.  The four of them would be strong enough, linked, to do so.

 

Since they couldn't be sure he would not have Callandor when he did attack Sam, they must have figured that linked, they could shield him anyway.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

Since they couldn't be sure he would not have Callandor when he did attack Sam, they must have figured that linked, they could shield him anyway.

 

thats perfectly possible, albeit, cannot be proven.  mixed circles are stronger than female-only circles.  not to mention that each of the 4 are vastly stronger than anything the tower can muster.  in addition, they are all skilled in the OP. 

[Alexius]

About people being "strong enough" to use the Choedan Kal- AFAIK we haven't heard someone say that about any other angreal. On the other hand, we haven't heard of an unusually weak channeler (Daigian or below) using an angreal either, so we don't know whether they can or not. Presumably, anyone who can be raised to the shawl can use run-of-the-mill angreal, but do we even know there's such a bar?

 

My theory is that the power requirement to use the Choedan Kal is there because the keys require a large amount of the Power to be channeled into them to operate. This could be simply because they need it to operate, or as a safety feature (you don't want someone who could barely light a candle suddenly controlling that much power, they wouldn't know how to use it), or because it was easier to build them that way.

 

One more angreal question: Channelers seem to have two "thresholds", the amount of the Power they can channel at all, and the amount they can channel without the risk of burning out. Angreal must raise the second, as otherwise anyone who used one would burn out. After all, most channelers can channel enough to burn themselves out (although I doubt Morgase or Sorilea could)- so if they could channel more, the risk would be increased. Most angreal would also raise the first threshold, allowing their users to do things impossible without one.

Perhaps Callandor's lack of a buffer means that it's easier for the user to burn himself out. Let's say that Rand can channel enough to lift 1,000 pounds- but if he tries to lift over 900 he could burn himself out. With the fat man, he could lift 5,000, but risks burnout with 4,500 (a straight mutiplication in both cases). With Callandor, he could lift 50,000 pounds, but risks burnout with more than 30,000. This obviously makes it more dangerous to use- the risk of burnout starts at a much lower percentage of what he could draw. Make sense? Or is the risk only to do with the taint?

 

Note:I used lifting strength because it's one of the few quantitative measures we get- and the values I gave put Rand well above Siuan pre-stilling. However, they are a guess- so no quoting some incident I forgot about where he lifts a boar-horse unaided!

[Bob T Dwarf]

Speaking of Callandor -

 

Wasn't it made during the Breaking?

 

So, how does Lanfear know enough about it to assess its strength?

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

very sure it was made before(i think it says this in the BWB).

[BrainFireBob]

It was made during the WoP- no-one made male sa'angreal during the Breaking. The fact it's a weapon, and lacks a buffer (meaning it's not necessarily safe) points to it being created *during* the War.

 

Now, there are two problems with lacking a buffer. 1) It magnifies the Taint, not a problem in the Age of Legends. 2) Unlike with other angreal and sa'angreal, you can burn yourself out with Callandor- there isn't a "safety cap" on it, so you need enough self-discipline to use it. The Choedan Kal themselves, I believe it implied, have this same flaw (Lanfear is terrified Rand will try to channel through the Cairhien one, none of the Forsaken go for them, the Light couldn't use them without the access keys, etc.)- so we can conclude the "access keys" aren't just mobile access devices, but themselves contain the buffer. Maybe it's a necessary consequence of exceeding strength enhancing level Q for *angreal.

 

One would propose that Callandor was a PR item, the Sword of Light to defeat the Shadow, and used by LTT. Perhaps he used it at the Sealing, thus allowing him to do most of it himself, to compensate for the lack of circles- it would certainly explain why the Aes Sedai know it magnifies the Taint, when presumably no man used it once the Breaking started (since it was sealed in the Stone). Maybe Callandor is the reason LTT and the HC went mad on the spot. It's an interesting idea I'll ponder.

 

As to the link, sorry, Bob, but that point doesn't fly. The episode with Narishma implies that someone other than Rand added wards to Callandor. Considering how dangerous Rand is with it, it would be extremely blindsided of the Forsaken not to keep an eye on it- just because it's not overtly discussed, doesn't mean that there wasn't a "it's OFF" clause if Callandor disappeared from the Stone.

 

To argue they thought they could take him with Callandor in his fist ignores the fact they're not stupid, and would probably be watching to make sure Callandor stayed right where they wanted it to stay- not with Rand.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well, it says, "...thought to have been made during the War of Power."

 

That doesn't really make sense though.  If it was around it logically would have used during the Strike on SG.  Since the men who survived that strike all immediately went mad, it would not have been calmly returned to the Armory from whence it was drawn.

 

We don't really 'know' anything about it until it appears hanging in midair inside the Stone of Tear after that gets built as the first fortress to be constructed after the Breaking is over.

 

My guess, BWB aside, and given its flaws, is that it was constructed during the Breaking.  Hurriedly and without proper tools and safeguards available any longer.   That would have been after Lanfear was sealed away.

 

So, how does she know how strong it is?

[BrainFireBob]

Your guess is wrong. We do know something about it in-between. We know the Aes Sedai, before they abandoned Paaren Disen, had gotten their hands on it.

 

Who says it was calmly returned? Taking something from a powerful, dangerous madman who can kill you with a thought is risky, not impossible.

 

And why, oh why, would they construct something like that during the Breaking *only to hide it immediately*. More, making something like that was apparently a major undertaking- consider the Choedan Kal.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The CK were constructed during the WoP.  They had the safeguards.  It was the loss of their keys, before they could be shipped from the 'factory' that prompted the Strike on SG.

 

So, how do you build two incredibly powerful artifacts properly while building one lesser artifact improperly in the same timeframe?  Doesn't jibe.

 

Not saying it was impossible, just that it doesn't fit.

 

Remember, the BWB is supposed to represent a reconstruction of facts compiled by a historian from Randland using fragmentary evidence that was available to him/her at the time when it was written.  IOW it's a fictional history book.  It's also been proven to be unreliable based on what happens in the books.