Egwene's headaches

[Trakand]

Hello, this is my first time reading through the wot. Are egwene's headaches natural? I was thinking maybe they were saidin inflicted by halima. Just wanted to get your guys opinions.

 

[David Selig]

You are right, Halima caused those headaches.

[rand4747]

dunno why Halima didn't just use compulsion, maybe she is just not very good with it to be effective.

[Luckers]

dunno why Halima didn't just use compulsion, maybe she is just not very good with it to be effective.

 

We don't know that she didn't at times use milder forms of compulsion--Egwene has dreams of running from something she can't see, the same as Morgase.That being said, there are reasons that Aran'gar couldn't use anything but the mildest forms of compulsion on Egwene--for one, they show up if the person is delved (as per Verin), and anything that wouldn't fade in a few minutes ran the risk of exposure especially given Egwene headaches (which began naturally as a result of Lanfear's attack). For another, personality-wise the effects are also noticed. No one realised what they meant in Morgase, but Aes Sedai would have picked up on it in Egwene.

[Trakand]

Thanks for the affirmative. I wasn't aware of the personality-wise effects similarities to Morgase. Is there any chance that you could give me an example?

[Luckers]

Thanks for the affirmative. I wasn't aware of the personality-wise effects similarities to Morgase. Is there any chance that you could give me an example?

 

There aren't any... that was my point, that Aran'gar couldn't risk properly compelling Egwene because there was a solid chance the Aes Sedai would recognize it for what it was--either through the effects on personality, or through delving Egwene, which could happen at any time.

 

The being said, the similarity between Egwene's dreams and Morgase's are suggestive that something was going on.

[Terez]

Well, we know that Aran'gar was trying to control her dreams, so there's no need of an explanation for that.

[FarShainMael]

There has been quite a lot of discussion on the boards about the interaction between Halima / Aran'gar and Egwene:

 

http://www.dragonmou...led-by-arangar/

 

http://www.theorylan...read.php?t=4157

 

http://steelypips.or...2_headache.html

[FarShainMael]

..the similarity between Egwene's dreams and Morgase's are suggestive that something was going on.

 

There is indeed a resemblance between Morgase's dreams when Gaebril is around, and Egwene's dreams when Halima has taken up residence in her tent in Salidar:

 

.."Go to your bedchamber and sleep. Go now. I will wake you when you have rested enough."

 

Morgase srood immediately, still smiling at him devotedly. His eyes seemed slightly glazed. "Yes, I am tired. ~I will take a nap now, Gaebril."

 

...

 

..Her eyes closed, and she fell immediately into sleep, a sleep troubled by restless dreams of running from something she could not see.

 

 

..Egwene woke groggily from restless sleep and troubling dreams, the more troubing because she could not remember them. Her dreams were always open to her, as clear as printed words on a page, yet these had been murky and fearful. She had had too many of those, lately. They left her wanting to run, to escape, never able to recall what from, but always queasy and uncertain, even trembling.

 

However, Egwene is able to recall her dreams about Rand, and Perrin, and Mat.

 

So it's not Egwene's dreams that Halima is interfering with. More likely, it's her ability to enter T'A'R.

[Trakand]

I actually took a look and I found what you were talking about with her dreams. Thanks I appreciate the discussion. Does Aran'gar deal with the male half of the true source because of her past life?

[Trakand]

..the similarity between Egwene's dreams and Morgase's are suggestive that something was going on.

 

There is indeed a resemblance between Morgase's dreams when Gaebril is around, and Egwene's dreams when Halima has taken up residence in her tent in Salidar:

 

.."Go to your bedchamber and sleep. Go now. I will wake you when you have rested enough."

 

Morgase srood immediately, still smiling at him devotedly. His eyes seemed slightly glazed. "Yes, I am tired. ~I will take a nap now, Gaebril."

 

...

 

..Her eyes closed, and she fell immediately into sleep, a sleep troubled by restless dreams of running from something she could not see.

 

 

..Egwene woke groggily from restless sleep and troubling dreams, the more troubing because she could not remember them. Her dreams were always open to her, as clear as printed words on a page, yet these had been murky and fearful. She had had too many of those, lately. They left her wanting to run, to escape, never able to recall what from, but always queasy and uncertain, even trembling.

 

However, Egwene is able to recall her dreams about Rand, and Perrin, and Mat.

 

So it's not Egwene's dreams that Halima is interfering with. More likely, it's her ability to enter T'A'R.

 

That was exactly what I was looking for. Thanks

[FarShainMael]

I actually took a look and I found what you were talking about with her dreams. Thanks I appreciate the discussion. Does Aran'gar deal with the male half of the true source because of her past life?

 

Yes, she most certainly does! I'll try and find a quote. That may not be tonight - I'm in the UK and I'm about to eat - but I'll have a look around later. To avoid spoilers, how far are you into the series?

[Luckers]

..the similarity between Egwene's dreams and Morgase's are suggestive that something was going on.

 

There is indeed a resemblance between Morgase's dreams when Gaebril is around, and Egwene's dreams when Halima has taken up residence in her tent in Salidar:

 

.."Go to your bedchamber and sleep. Go now. I will wake you when you have rested enough."

 

Morgase srood immediately, still smiling at him devotedly. His eyes seemed slightly glazed. "Yes, I am tired. ~I will take a nap now, Gaebril."

 

...

 

..Her eyes closed, and she fell immediately into sleep, a sleep troubled by restless dreams of running from something she could not see.

 

 

..Egwene woke groggily from restless sleep and troubling dreams, the more troubing because she could not remember them. Her dreams were always open to her, as clear as printed words on a page, yet these had been murky and fearful. She had had too many of those, lately. They left her wanting to run, to escape, never able to recall what from, but always queasy and uncertain, even trembling.

 

However, Egwene is able to recall her dreams about Rand, and Perrin, and Mat.

 

So it's not Egwene's dreams that Halima is interfering with. More likely, it's her ability to enter T'A'R.

 

Actually the only time Egwene Dreams whilst around Aran'gar is the night Chesa gives her a herbal remedy that clears up her headache without Aran'gar doing a Creepy Massage. Other than that she doesn't dream until she gets away from Aran'gar by being taken prisoner at the Tower.

 

Inversely there is no problem with her ability to enter TAR during that time, so clearly Aran'gar was disrupting her ability to Dream, not Dreamwalk.

[Lacanos]

Another reason compulsion might not be a good idea is due to all but the strongest compulsion being "defeatable" by those of strong will, which apparently Egwene is (certainly, strong willed enough to defeat Mesaana in the manner she did).

[FarShainMael]

Noted, Luckers, thanks.

 

Another reason compulsion might not be a good idea is due to all but the strongest compulsion being "defeatable" by those of strong will, which apparently Egwene is (certainly, strong willed enough to defeat Mesaana in the manner she did).

 

Only if she has reason to suspect something is wrong. For Morgase, this happened in TFoH, when she heard that someone had raised the flag of Manetheren in the TR and Gaebril gave her the brushoff and sent her to her room! She wandered around in a daze, ending up in Lini's quarters, who helped her snap out of it. I don't know who would do that for Egwene. Galad, perhaps - I don't think it would be Gawyn.

[rand4747]

morgase remembers she had been suspicious before and tried to do something about it but it had never worked before.

[Knivy]

I assume the stronger the compulsion and the longer you are under the influence of it, the harder it is to break. Morgase was very heavily compelled, and didnt realize something was wrong till it had been at work for a long time. It does have some affect as she is able to go to Lini and start to escape.

[FarShainMael]

Actually the only time Egwene Dreams whilst around Aran'gar is the night Chesa gives her a herbal remedy that clears up her headache without Aran'gar doing a Creepy Massage. Other than that she doesn't dream until she gets away from Aran'gar by being taken prisoner at the Tower.

 

Inversely there is no problem with her ability to enter TAR during that time, so clearly Aran'gar was disrupting her ability to Dream, not Dreamwalk.

 

You're quite right about her ability to ennter T'A'R - there are a couple of instances in Winter's Heart (CH 10 and 26) which are in the timeframe of Halima's presence. Yet she still has those dreams of Rand, Perrin, and Mat that I mentioned, when Halima is staying in her tent, so has been working on her for some time. She also dreams of the attack on the WT (CoT20), while Halima is absent but returns late at night.

 

I can't find any overt reference such as Egwene thinking to herself 'Odd. I haven't dreamed'. I'll have to look again in more detail. Thart's a nuisance - I find Eg's arc quite boring!

[Pinzarn]

Actually the only time Egwene Dreams whilst around Aran'gar is the night Chesa gives her a herbal remedy that clears up her headache without Aran'gar doing a Creepy Massage. Other than that she doesn't dream until she gets away from Aran'gar by being taken prisoner at the Tower.

 

Inversely there is no problem with her ability to enter TAR during that time, so clearly Aran'gar was disrupting her ability to Dream, not Dreamwalk.

 

You're quite right about her ability to ennter T'A'R - there are a couple of instances in Winter's Heart (CH 10 and 26) which are in the timeframe of Halima's presence. Yet she still has those dreams of Rand, Perrin, and Mat that I mentioned, when Halima is staying in her tent, so has been working on her for some time. She also dreams of the attack on the WT (CoT20), while Halima is absent but returns late at night.

 

I can't find any overt reference such as Egwene thinking to herself 'Odd. I haven't dreamed'. I'll have to look again in more detail. Thart's a nuisance - I find Eg's arc quite boring!

 

I was never under the impression that she couldn't dream, but that she couldn't remember her dreams or they were clouded, like you quoted above.

[FarShainMael]

Generally, then, what is Halima-Aran'gar achieving during her close proximity to Egwene?

 

She doesn't prevent Eg getting into T'A'R. Odd that. I can't believe she (or Shaidar Haran!) doesn't know about Eg's ability there! Though I suppose it is possible, just.

 

I don't think she's preventing Eg's prophetic dreams. BTW, does anyone besides Eg herself know she has those? (There used to be a spreadsheet* detailing who knows what, will try to find it.)

 

Is she preventing Eg from dreaming normally or just clouding the dreams? If so, why? What does it gain for her?

 

What are the headaches for? To damage Eg's ability to think clearly? If so are they working? Or are they just a by-product of her real activities, whatever they are?

 

*ETA: It's in the 'online resources' sticky on this board, and AFAICS no-one knows but Eg herself. Unless, of course, you know different..

[TristanWebb]

She told Alana about her first one, but if that was spread around I don't know about it.

[Vardar]

Don't the Wise ones know?

 

And didn't the Wise Ones say being a Dreamer is different from Dream Walking because they all can't do it? And Perrin has visions on TAR too right? I never quite got that.

[greensalt]

By giving Egwene headaches that only she can cure, Halima put herself in a very close and immovable position next to the leader of a huge group of female channelers. That reason alone is justification enough for Halima to have been giving her headaches and then curing them each night. A woman who can't channel is usually considered dirt compared to other Aes Sedai, but since Halima possessed such a unique and necessary service she was allowed to stick around and spy on things from the Amyrlin's tent herself. It gave Halima the perfect excuse to sit around, gather information, and be in a position to do anything the Nae'blis or DO asked of her.

 

I hadn't noticed that Egwene had no dreams in T'A'R wihle that was going on. That's very interesting.

 

 

The reason Halima likely didn't use a form of true compulsion is because those weaves settle into a person where you can see them later on. Verin's broken weave of pseudo-compulsion left weaves on a person that were extraordinarily faint, but could be percieved if someone who knew what they were doing really looked closely enough (like one of the sitters of the Yellow Ajah perhaps). Rand mentions the same thing while he is delving the mind of the man he sent in to speak with Graendal. He uses the presence or lack thereof as a method of determining whether Graendal has been baelfired.

 

As a channeler of saidin, Halima would have to be especially careful not to lay any sort of permanent weaves on anything around Aes Sedai and the Amyrlin even moreso. If Egwene was ever badly hurt or injured, then as the Amyrlin Seat the yellow ajah would all jump on her trying to heal whatever wounds she had. The yellows would also be interested in delving her and making sure everything is fine and healed properly afterwards. If that situation arose and a yellow discovered that Egwene had weaves on her brain that could be almost noticed, but weren't from saidar, then all of the aes sedai would go crazy over it. That type of situation would have presented huge problems for everyone involved throwing the rebels into chaos and likely ruin any long term plans the forsaken may have had for the white tower. Laying any form of compulsion on Egwene would be a very horrible idea unless the channeler's intention was to throw doubt upon Egwene's past decisions.

[FarShainMael]

Can someone confirm or refute that female channellers can't detect saidin weaves, and males can't detect weaves in saidar? I must check TPoD5, when the Bowl of Winds was being used..

[Vardar]

Can someone confirm or refute that female channellers can't detect saidin weaves, and males can't detect weaves in saidar? I must check TPoD5, when the Bowl of Winds was being used..

 

They can't. Remember Rand's battle with Lanfear, he says' he can't see the weaves but he can slice them. He knows she is channelling and so slices away. Same with Verin and Halmina at the cleansing. She says she doesn't need to see the weaves to stop them.

 

Although an AS discovers how to tell which weave was used later in the camp right?