He would almost certainly fail without a woman dead and gone

[kght22]

i bought the first three books twice, after that i just bought each book once (i have had every book in hardback, and still have the remains of them, but only 5 of them are still usable) and i have all of them in audiobook (digital version of course)

[kght22]

the last 5 seem pretty durable though, i don't think they will fall apart like the others.

[Deadsy]

Why would telling him about this viewing make him bleak?

just thought I would say why wouldn't telling him that a dead woman would increase his odds (significantly) of winning?

 

I know if someone told me that a dead woman would be instramental in something I was doing I would just give up. And the only places we see a formerly dead woman is brigitte, the woman twin hero, and Lanfear -> Cyndane. So it isnt that terrible of a comparison.

 

That seems foolish given what I've just said. This isn't our world. On our world it would be insane. But this is a world where the characters in question (Rand and Min) have seen dead people, spoken to them, and done battle with them. Sorry, I'm not buying that she would hide it from him if that was her viewing.

there have only been a handful of them though, the vast majority being when the horn was blown which was a few dozen or so and havent been seen since (although I would like an accurate count of TGH numbers vs when they get blown again). And the majority of them being a very special case (with women being the minority among them (at least the ones named)), and the rezzed forsaken being the rest (although at the point of the quote Rand is unaware of them)

 

Why does that matter? I'm going to say it again - Horn of Valere. Something the characters already think is vital to winning the Last Battle.

 

Also, I'd like to think if I had a viewing of that I'd be a little more WTF about it than Min was. I'd also be thinking "Burn Rand al'Thor for getting me into this mess. Now he's making me look at scabbed zombie faces on top of everything else"

[Deadsy]

the last 5 seem pretty durable though, i don't think they will fall apart like the others.

 

That's what they said about the Seals

[Barid Bel Medar]

It doesn't matter though, Min's viewings are never wrong. If she had a viewing that said a dead woman would help Rand, she wouldn't make a big deal out of it. She tells Rand about other viewings that don't seem to make much sense, and even tells him about Alivia helping him die.

 

What is most likely is that she had a viewing of someone (most likely Moiraine) who then died, or who is dead, and thus concluded that the viewing failed. That Moiraine, or whoever it was, was supposed to help him and be alive, but she is not.

 

the last 5 seem pretty durable though, i don't think they will fall apart like the others.

 

That's what they said about the Seals

 

[kght22]

btw i know there wouldn't have needed to be a new binding method to put these last 3 books into one book, at my house we have 2 books that are roughly 12" cubed in size, (12"x12"x12") and there are larger in the local library.

[kght22]

It doesn't matter though, Min's viewings are never wrong. If she had a viewing that said a dead woman would help Rand, she wouldn't make a big deal out of it. She tells Rand about other viewings that don't seem to make much sense, and even tells him about Alivia helping him die.

 

What is most likely is that she had a viewing of someone (most likely Moiraine) who then died, or who is dead, and thus concluded that the viewing failed. That Moiraine, or whoever it was, was supposed to help him and be alive, but she is not.

 

the last 5 seem pretty durable though, i don't think they will fall apart like the others.

 

That's what they said about the Seals

 

she didn't talk about it because it is moiraine. she WOULD know lanfear if she saw lanfear, but she would i think mention lanfear if she ran into her after falm.

[Deadsy]

she lanfear she saw lanfear she lanfear she

 

Dude, edit button. This topic would be 3 pages if you would just pretend that the edit button is, I dunno... a cupcake or a woman folding her arms beneath her breasts.

[Barid Bel Medar]

she didn't talk about it because it is moiraine. she WOULD know lanfear if she saw lanfear, but she would i think mention lanfear if she ran into her after falm.

 

That was the point. She wasn't mentioned because she "knows" Moiraine is dead, and there would be no point depressing Rand. And, as said earlier, her reaction would be much different if it was Lanfear.

 

Plus, if it was just of a "dead woman" she wouldn't be so concerned, because she knows her viewings come true, and she tells Rand worse and things that seem confusing at the time. The only way that she is so concerned is that she had a viewing of someone that is supposed to be alive, Moiraine, who had died, and the viewing mentions nothing about her being resurrected.

[kght22]

she didn't talk about it because it is moiraine. she WOULD know lanfear if she saw lanfear, but she would i think mention lanfear if she ran into her after falm.

 

That was the point. She wasn't mentioned because she "knows" Moiraine is dead, and there would be no point depressing Rand. And, as said earlier, her reaction would be much different if it was Lanfear.

 

Plus, if it was just of a "dead woman" she wouldn't be so concerned, because she knows her viewings come true, and she tells Rand worse and things that seem confusing at the time. The only way that she is so concerned is that she had a viewing of someone that is supposed to be alive, Moiraine, who had died, and the viewing mentions nothing about her being resurrected.

never again make a prediction unless we are standing next to eachother. that way i can faux strangle you.

[Deadsy]

[Removed]

 

I'm trying to figure out what you could possibly get out of bolstering your post count, because that's the only reason I can see for continually replying to your own posts (which makes it annoying to scroll through a topic, FYI) and ignoring the edit button.

[Sharaman]

It is probably worth mentioning that Min doesn't know resurrection is possible when she has that thought.

In fact, nobody Lightside knows this until Rand figures out the utility of balefire after his chat to Moridin.

Min might be less inclined to worry about her "Failed viewing" if she knows its theoretically possible.

[Tommatt]

It is most likely moraine. But I feel it's odd and questionable by the fact she saw thom and moraines marriage, talks about a woman dead and gone, and only one foreseeing she's sawn as being wrong.

 

She saw thom and moraine marrying, we all assume, which is her one vision not come to pass. As far as she knows.

 

Then there's this quote, while most likely moraine, it could be speculated to be lanfear easily. Surprise do many of you just dismiss it. Oh well we'll know on 7 months!

[Deadsy]

It is most likely moraine. But I feel it's odd and questionable by the fact she saw thom and moraines marriage, talks about a woman dead and gone, and only one foreseeing she's sawn as being wrong.

 

If I'm understanding you correctly, and you're saying "why doesn't she think two viewings failed," then you need to go back through earlier posts in this topic. It has already been explained that the viewing of a woman dead and gone cannot fail.

[Ashaman Kovan]

So I was reading another thread, and this viewing popped into my head. We have always assumed it means moraine, but with the end of ToM could it be Lanfear? With the woman who is dead and gone Mierin. She originally created the bore, and whlie far gone to the shadow, would rather destroy the dark one and rule as well. I don't think its likely, but has anyone ever put any thought into this? I believe the end of ToM is some sort of trap, but maybe not.

 

 

It was Moiraine. Just after that she said that Moiraine was the *only* viewing of hers that ever failed. That's how we knew it was Moiraine.

 

 

Derp.

[FarShainMael]

It is most likely moraine. But I feel it's odd and questionable by the fact she saw thom and moraines marriage, talks about a woman dead and gone, and only one foreseeing she's sawn as being wrong.

 

If I'm understanding you correctly, and you're saying "why doesn't she think two viewings failed," then you need to go back through earlier posts in this topic. It has already been explained that the viewing of a woman dead and gone cannot fail.

 

Neither can the viewing of Moiraine marrying.

 

That makes two apparently failed viewings.

[Terez]

So I was reading another thread, and this viewing popped into my head. We have always assumed it means moraine, but with the end of ToM could it be Lanfear? With the woman who is dead and gone Mierin. She originally created the bore, and whlie far gone to the shadow, would rather destroy the dark one and rule as well. I don't think its likely, but has anyone ever put any thought into this? I believe the end of ToM is some sort of trap, but maybe not.

 

 

It was Moiraine. Just after that she said that Moiraine was the *only* viewing of hers that ever failed. That's how we knew it was Moiraine.

 

 

Derp.

 

?

[FarShainMael]

I would like it to be Lanfear. Without the time or Moraine being explicitely linked to this viewing I would say we cannot tell 100%

explain, how is she not explicetely linked to this, and if not what viewing are you talking about?

the "you will fail without a woman dead and gone" viewing. Nothing mentions Moraine, the only thing mentioning her is a quote from a short time later, which IMO does not create a connection between them strong enough to discount other possibilities

i mean realy? that isn't a viewing. it isnt a prophecy, it is just a thought on a previous viewing. it is her later interpretation on some previous viewing.

 

the only time she is 100% accurate is when she sees it and understands it, above the person's head, or at least around the person's head. her later thoughts are as accurate as cadsuane's are.

 

i am still jaw dropped that people don't understand what min does.

 

Min's Viewings are always 100% accurate in the sense that none of them can fail - even those she does not immediately understand. Consider this viewing:

 

Rays of silver and blue flashed about her {Sheriam's}fiery hair, and a soft golden light; Min could not say what it meant.

 

We found out exactly what it meant in TGS45.

 

However, Min has 'interpreted' her visions before:

"Rand, I like Alivia... But she is going to kill you." She bit off every word.

 

"You said she was going to help me die," he {Rand} said quietly... "Helping me die isn't the same as killing me.. Unless you've changed your mind about what you saw."

 

Min flung up her hands in exasperation. "I saw what I saw, and it's what I told you, but the Pit of Doom swallow me if I can see any difference. And I can't see why you think there is!"

 

She may be doing so again.

[muddasssir]

I have to shake my head at this topic, as it has gone exactly as I have predicted.

 

What we know of Min's viewing is that "he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone".

 

That's it. This is all we know about it.

 

As far as we know, as far as the wording we have been given goes (and we know that the wording Min uses to describe her viewings is important), this viewing cannot fail. It literally cannot. It does not have a failable state. If Rand succeeds without the woman's help, the viewing is still accurate. If Rand fails with the woman's help, the viewing is still accurate. It cannot fail. Thus, if Min realizes this (and I'll admit I'm assuming that she does), this cannot be the viewing that she saw of Moiraine that "failed".

 

There is also nothing in the description of the viewing that confirms that Min knows who the woman is.

 

It could be referring to Meirin (for a given interpretation of "dead and gone") or Kari or Tigraine or Brigitte or someone else. We don't know.

hallelujah finally some one who sees sense I think that argument has always been that it is unlikely that two incidents are connected. By which I obviously mean the event of min talking about a dead woman and her failed viewing it was most probably a deliberate ploy by RJ to put us on wrong track. I think it is Meirinne else it coud be even Moiraine or someone else all together. Why not we start a thread stating all the unproved theories where each person express their opinion let us s who gts most right and how many theories remain un-resolved hey moderators what about it?

[Luckers]

Actually all we know about that viewing is that Min thought, based on that viewing, that Rand needed a woman that Min regarded as dead and gone..

[Ashaman Kovan]

So I was reading another thread, and this viewing popped into my head. We have always assumed it means moraine, but with the end of ToM could it be Lanfear? With the woman who is dead and gone Mierin. She originally created the bore, and whlie far gone to the shadow, would rather destroy the dark one and rule as well. I don't think its likely, but has anyone ever put any thought into this? I believe the end of ToM is some sort of trap, but maybe not.

 

 

It was Moiraine. Just after that she said that Moiraine was the *only* viewing of hers that ever failed. That's how we knew it was Moiraine.

 

 

Derp.

 

?

 

Derping the fellow who thought it could be anyone other than Moraine.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Actually all we know about that viewing is that Min thought, based on that viewing, that Rand needed a woman that Min regarded as dead and gone..

 

Exactly, people misinterpret this and think that this incident was a specific viewing. It was not, as you said. Min is merely thinking about a viewing she has had, and that Rand apparently needs someone who is, whether it be from the actual viewing, or Min's opinion, dead.

 

Also, re: Moiraine and two viewings. It is possible that Min meant Moiraine as a whole failed her, like all of her viewings concerning Moiraine (that haven't been fulfilled). I mean, she didn't say Moiraine marrying Thom was a failure. She only said "Moiraine was the only one that failed."

 

But even if it was not, it doesn't mean that this one isn't Moiraine, as has been pointed out, this viewing cannot fail, and it has not. Min only thinks she has no idea how it can happen. Not that it has failed, yet.

 

And besides, why would Min's word about "only" be taken as proof, she is wrong in the first place, so why should that be taken as proof against it?

[muddasssir]

Yeah I've bought the series three times outright, and some books as many as six times. Though, that being said, my current version was a gift from orbit, and like my 'ebooks' were 'free'. :P

Yeah I've bought the series three times outright, and some books as many as six times. Though, that being said, my current version was a gift from orbit, and like my 'ebooks' were 'free'. :P

do you really have to make us jealous and yes I have bought some books as many as 6-8 times.

[Luckers]

Yeah I've bought the series three times outright, and some books as many as six times. Though, that being said, my current version was a gift from orbit, and like my 'ebooks' were 'free'. :P

Yeah I've bought the series three times outright, and some books as many as six times. Though, that being said, my current version was a gift from orbit, and like my 'ebooks' were 'free'. :P

do you really have to make us jealous and yes I have bought some books as many as 6-8 times.

 

Yes. Yes I do. :P

[TristanWebb]

My problem with the it means Lanfear thing is this: it is a single line that is impossible to interpret that way until midway through the final book. Now RJ was a master foreshadower, but that line, and others from Min and others to be sure, has been used to foreshadow Moraine's return. For it to imply Lanfear, you have to know she want to turn away from the Shadow, something that wouldn't be revealed until very close to the climax of the series (if that is what Rand's dream really means). You then have to go back and nitpick it out, and assume that Moiraine -doesn't- have to be there or Rand will fail, and have it so Lanfear does.

 

We are two thirds of the way through a book here remember. Granted the pacing along the way may have changed, but for RJ to expect people to look back half way through a book to find things for the rest of it is ludicrous. I will mention it again, if Moiraine is essential and so is Lanfear, then the correct interpretation is still that she was talking about Moiraine. It is only if Moiraine coming back is inconsequential and Lanfear is essential that you can possibly assign her to that thought.