He would almost certainly fail without a woman dead and gone

[kght22]

I am saying that without the original words to the viewing we cannot 100% say it was referring to Mierin or Moraine

 

"What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?"

 

it is a retroactive look at it.

 

But I think she may have told Moraine about her and Thom because of how she thinks and refers to him, so that could be the 'failed' viewing.

 

Also drunken frog I understand as much as we can what min's ability does. Also I do not have time to reread certain books that many times, the 2-4 times I have will have to suffice because I cannot read them too many times due to being able to remember nearly all that happens, it just loses its excitement for me until a long period of time has elapsed.

naked frog isn't here, that is just who made my siggy =P

[Durinax]

I am saying that without the original words to the viewing we cannot 100% say it was referring to Mierin or Moraine

 

"What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?"

 

it is a retroactive look at it.

 

But I think she may have told Moraine about her and Thom because of how she thinks and refers to him, so that could be the 'failed' viewing.

 

Also drunken frog I understand as much as we can what min's ability does. Also I do not have time to reread certain books that many times, the 2-4 times I have will have to suffice because I cannot read them too many times due to being able to remember nearly all that happens, it just loses its excitement for me until a long period of time has elapsed.

naked frog isn't here, that is just who made my siggy =P

just noticed that, while I was typing it was all I could see, was too lazy to scroll up

[kght22]

I am saying that without the original words to the viewing we cannot 100% say it was referring to Mierin or Moraine

 

"What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?"

 

it is a retroactive look at it.

 

But I think she may have told Moraine about her and Thom because of how she thinks and refers to him, so that could be the 'failed' viewing.

 

Also drunken frog I understand as much as we can what min's ability does. Also I do not have time to reread certain books that many times, the 2-4 times I have will have to suffice because I cannot read them too many times due to being able to remember nearly all that happens, it just loses its excitement for me until a long period of time has elapsed.

oh, and you clearly can't remember them very well considering you think there is enough evidence that it might be lanfear, while the viewing that she is directly referring to is in the first two books, and has nothing to do with lanfear. rand might fail if moiraine is not there at the last battle. that predates the statement by a few books. the whole chapter when it come's to min's pov is focused on: moiraine, especially when she see's moiraine's sister and is speechless for a second. the burden of evidence is on those who think it might be lanfear that she is referring to, crazier things have happened, but the meaning is still pretty clear and obvious.

[kght22]

sorry but one thing that is made clear in that chapter is that min thinks that moiraine is dead, one thing made clear earlier in the series is that moiraine must be at the last battle for rand to have a better shot at winning

how can you not understand this simplistic paradox?

[kght22]

it doesn't discount the idea that lanfear might be of use, or even turn to good, this just isn't where the evidence exists.

[Terez]

Agreed, Min definitely believes that Moiraine is dead, and she also believes that Caraline is Moiraine when she first sees her, which clearly shows that she has reason to believe that Moiraine, despite being dead, will come back.

[Terez]

A few more points:

 

1. Rand will almost certainly fail without a woman dead and gone.

 

2. Mat weighs two Aes Sedai on a balance scale and on his decision rests something vast, perhaps the world.

 

3. Mat had to give up half the light of the world to save the world.

[Barid Bel Medar]

@Testy Caraline = Moiraine's cousin, not sister, btw.

 

@FSM fair enough, however it is a stretch to guess that Min had this viewing precisely when Lanfear was dead (which, by all accounts, wasn't very long, even if she DID really die, which isn't certain) and that it didn't change when she was resurrected, although it could have just been a one off thing, I suppose.

 

But IIRC, the viewings don't work like that. They are glimpses of the Pattern, unless the "dead woman" was someone like a HotH, or managed to help Rand from the Afterlife, I don't think that there would be a viewing of a dead woman, because the glimpse of the Pattern would be a time when Lanfear was alive again. (again, unless she is meant to help while dead)

 

Like Mat with Min's viewing of the Dagger. At the time he didn't have any connection to it, however, it was a vision of the future, not his current circumstance. It wouldn't matter what or where that person was at the time.

 

Thus, it has to be a viewing of a) someone who will be dead when they help Rand.

b) someone Min thinks is dead, but isn't, or will come back before the viewing is fulfilled.

And, if it was specifically of Lanfear, her reaction would be decidedly different. Like "WHAT A FORSAKEN HELPING RAND!!"

[Maleshub]

If Moiraine wasn't important and central to Rand; and if AMoL's cover isn't so indicative; why the heck did a significant chunk of ToM go to her rescue?

 

Meirin still has a role to play. But it will be for the Shadow she's playing. Her mind is dangling from Moridin's neck. She doesn't have much room for maneuvering. I don't think Rand can free her from the mind trap. She is caught and beyond hope.

[kght22]

@Testy Caraline = Moiraine's cousin, not sister, btw.

 

@FSM fair enough, however it is a stretch to guess that Min had this viewing precisely when Lanfear was dead (which, by all accounts, wasn't very long, even if she DID really die, which isn't certain) and that it didn't change when she was resurrected, although it could have just been a one off thing, I suppose. But IIRC, the viewings don't work like that. They are glimpses of the Pattern, unless the "dead woman" was someone like a HotH, or managed to help Rand from the Afterlife, I don't think that there would be a viewing of a dead woman, because the glimpse of the Pattern would be a time when Lanfear was alive again. (again, unless she is meant to help while dead)

 

Like Perrin with Min's viewing of wolves, or of the Falcon and Hawk. At the time he didn't have any connection to them, however, it was a vision of the future, not his current circumstance.

thanks for the correction, i agree. cousin not sister, although that does make her the senior member of house damandred, and her cousin has no intent on a further claim. it will be funny if moiraine somehow ends up queen of cairhien.

 

WOAH DONT GET ME WRONG, HIGHLY UNLIKELY, i had to edit to add this: IT WONT HAPPEN, just a funny idea.

[Terez]

I believe she will end up Queen of Cairhien.

[kght22]

If Moiraine wasn't important and central to Rand; and if AMoL's cover isn't so indicative; why the heck did a significant chunk of ToM go to her rescue?

 

Meirin still has a role to play. But it will be for the Shadow she's playing. Her mind is dangling from Moridin's neck. She doesn't have much room for maneuvering. I don't think Rand can free her from the mind trap. She is caught and beyond hope.

moiraine's rescue has been important because through most of the books we have known that she will play a vital role at tarmon gaidon and that role doesn't mean that she will be with the dragon or anything else, we have just known that she will be important for rand to win, but we have also known that rand COULD win without her. at this point i suspect that winning without her would be almost as bad as losing.

[Maleshub]

If Moiraine wasn't important and central to Rand; and if AMoL's cover isn't so indicative; why the heck did a significant chunk of ToM go to her rescue?

 

Meirin still has a role to play. But it will be for the Shadow she's playing. Her mind is dangling from Moridin's neck. She doesn't have much room for maneuvering. I don't think Rand can free her from the mind trap. She is caught and beyond hope.

moiraine's rescue has been important because through most of the books we have known that she will play a vital role at tarmon gaidon and that role doesn't mean that she will be with the dragon or anything else, we have just known that she will be important for rand to win, but we have also known that rand COULD win without her. at this point i suspect that winning without her would be almost as bad as losing.

 

That's just half the argument. Do you think Rand can free Meirin/Lanfear/Cyndane from her a mind trap worked by the DO over the Pit of Doom?

[kght22]

I believe she will end up Queen of Cairhien.

really? i find it a remote possibility, and the only way it would work to the good is if she were queen with elayne's blessing with morgause holding the west. i suppose it might work, but i doubt it, unless dobraine (bad spelling) will back her. not to mention egwene would have to out logic her to make her even think about accepting the position. but it does make sense when it come's to rj's style, there is even a thread on this forum that was recently active that would give this idea credit.

[Deadsy]

while the viewing that she is directly referring to is in the first two books, and has nothing to do with lanfear. rand might fail if moiraine is not there at the last battle. that predates the statement by a few books.

 

I feel the need to point this out. While I agree with most of your arguments on this thread 100%, there was no such viewing like this. I know it's going to annoy you to look it up to try to disprove me, but it doesn't exist. The only viewing that comes close to it is the one where Min sees that the superfriends all have an important part to play, and the lights get really bright when they (including Moiraine) are all together. There was no viewing, aside from the woman dead and gone viewing, that specifically stated that Rand might fail if Moiraine isn't there.

 

"The sparks, Rand. She met Mistress Alys coming in, and there were sparks, with just the two of them. Yesterday I couldn’t see sparks without at least three or four of you together, but today it’s all sharper, and more furious.”

 

Min's Viewing was of a dead woman. Moiraine was alive at the time; it was Lanfear who was dead.

 

This cracks me up. I've heard this argument dozens and dozens of times over the past nine years and it never ceases to amaze me. Min did NOT view a "dead woman." She viewed a woman who she now believes to be dead. That's obvious from her point of view. Of course, she thinks Lanfear is dead too so it could still be her (it's not), but it still bothers me when people try to prove it in this nonsensical way.

 

Someone has already mentioned it, but there is no way Min wouldn't have thought "how the hell is a Forsaken going to help Rand" if it was actually Lanfear.

[Maleshub]

I believe she will end up Queen of Cairhien.

really? i find it a remote possibility, and the only way it would work to the good is if she were queen with elayne's blessing with morgause holding the west. i suppose it might work, but i doubt it, unless dobraine (bad spelling) will back her. not to mention egwene would have to out logic her to make her even think about accepting the position. but it does make sense when it come's to rj's style, there is even a thread on this forum that was recently active that would give this idea credit.

 

It could happen if Elayne abdicates and goes into retirement with Rand, Min, and Aviendha.

[kght22]

If Moiraine wasn't important and central to Rand; and if AMoL's cover isn't so indicative; why the heck did a significant chunk of ToM go to her rescue?

 

Meirin still has a role to play. But it will be for the Shadow she's playing. Her mind is dangling from Moridin's neck. She doesn't have much room for maneuvering. I don't think Rand can free her from the mind trap. She is caught and beyond hope.

moiraine's rescue has been important because through most of the books we have known that she will play a vital role at tarmon gaidon and that role doesn't mean that she will be with the dragon or anything else, we have just known that she will be important for rand to win, but we have also known that rand COULD win without her. at this point i suspect that winning without her would be almost as bad as losing.

 

That's just half the argument. Do you think Rand can free Meirin/Lanfear/Cyndane from her a mind trap worked by the DO over the Pit of Doom?

he will free her if he wins, the question is, does he have a good reason to do so? many seem to think that because she was one of the primary researchers (and directly caused) the bore in the prison (choram?) that she might know how to fix it. i don't agree with that because any petulant child can throw a dish across the room and break it, very few will feel real remorse for doing such a thing, and even fewer can put it back together with super glue, even fewer will feel so bad that they spend their time trying to make a new one.

[Maleshub]

he will free her if he wins,

 

But if he wins, then he doesn't need her!

[Terez]

I believe she will end up Queen of Cairhien.

really? i find it a remote possibility, and the only way it would work to the good is if she were queen with elayne's blessing with morgause holding the west.

 

I'm not sure what Morgase has to do with it. Ultimately Rand's blessing is more important than even Elayne's, but I figure at this point that it will be Elayne's idea, and I don't think it's accidental that she didn't have time for a coronation. And I think the way Brandon wrote the scene of her sitting on the Sun Throne was childish.

 

i suppose it might work, but i doubt it, unless dobraine (bad spelling) will back her.

 

Dobraine will back whoever Rand tells him to back.

 

not to mention egwene would have to out logic her to make her even think about accepting the position.

 

I doubt Egwene will have anything to do with it at all.

 

but it does make sense when it come's to rj's style, there is even a thread on this forum that was recently active that would give this idea credit.

 

Somehow I doubt the idea needs help from a thread on this forum.

[kght22]

while the viewing that she is directly referring to is in the first two books, and has nothing to do with lanfear. rand might fail if moiraine is not there at the last battle. that predates the statement by a few books.

 

I feel the need to point this out. While I agree with most of your arguments on this thread 100%, there was no such viewing like this. I know it's going to annoy you to look it up to try to disprove me, but it doesn't exist. The only viewing that comes close to it is the one where Min sees that the superfriends all have an important part to play, and the lights get really bright when they (including Moiraine) are all together. There was no viewing, aside from the woman dead and gone viewing, that specifically stated that Rand might fail if Moiraine isn't there.

 

"The sparks, Rand. She met Mistress Alys coming in, and there were sparks, with just the two of them. Yesterday I couldn’t see sparks without at least three or four of you together, but today it’s all sharper, and more furious.”

 

Min's Viewing was of a dead woman. Moiraine was alive at the time; it was Lanfear who was dead.

 

This cracks me up. I've heard this argument dozens and dozens of times over the past nine years and it never ceases to amaze me. Min did NOT view a "dead woman." She viewed a woman who she now believes to be dead. That's obvious from her point of view. Of course, she thinks Lanfear is dead too so it could still be her (it's not), but it still bothers me when people try to prove it in this nonsensical way.

 

Someone has already mentioned it, but there is no way Min wouldn't have thought "how the hell is a Forsaken going to help Rand" if it was actually Lanfear.

i wish i were one who would look stuff up, but luckers is lurking around somewhere, and i swear he likes to make me or anyone look stupid =P and i actually like being made a fool of, just more good data for me to digest. but early on min does make mention of moiraine specifically needing to be at the last battle for rand to have a better chance. but even min's vision on that didn't say that she would be there. we can't even be sure, but i am certain, that min knew and told moir that she would marry thom, moir chose what to do with that what she did.

[Deadsy]

but i am certain, that min knew and told moir that she would marry thom, moir chose what to do with that what she did.

 

Yes, I agree that that's the viewing that failed.

[kght22]

he will free her if he wins,

 

But if he wins, then he doesn't need her!

everyone should be free though, she will have to answer for her crimes either way. the punishment will speak for the future.

[Ala Rubra]

I have to shake my head at this topic, as it has gone exactly as I have predicted.

 

What we know of Min's viewing is that "he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone".

 

That's it. This is all we know about it.

 

As far as we know, as far as the wording we have been given goes (and we know that the wording Min uses to describe her viewings is important), this viewing cannot fail. It literally cannot. It does not have a failable state. If Rand succeeds without the woman's help, the viewing is still accurate. If Rand fails with the woman's help, the viewing is still accurate. It cannot fail. Thus, if Min realizes this (and I'll admit I'm assuming that she does), this cannot be the viewing that she saw of Moiraine that "failed".

 

There is also nothing in the description of the viewing that confirms that Min knows who the woman is.

 

It could be referring to Meirin (for a given interpretation of "dead and gone") or Kari or Tigraine or Brigitte or someone else. We don't know.

[kght22]

I have to shake my head at this topic, as it has gone exactly as I have predicted.

 

What we know of Min's viewing is that "he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone".

 

That's it. This is all we know about it.

 

As far as we know, as far as the wording we have been given goes (and we know that the wording Min uses to describe her viewings is important), this viewing cannot fail. It literally cannot. It does not have a failable state. If Rand succeeds without the woman's help, the viewing is still accurate. If Rand fails with the woman's help, the viewing is still accurate. It cannot fail. Thus, if Min realizes this (and I'll admit I'm assuming that she does), this cannot be the viewing that she saw of Moiraine that "failed".

 

There is also nothing in the description of the viewing that confirms that Min knows who the woman is.

 

It could be referring to Meirin (for a given interpretation of "dead and gone") or Kari or Tigraine or Brigitte or someone else. We don't know.

i guess i need to start my re-read earlier than i thought, i was waiting for october to start (i read all of the harry potter books in 3 weeks, so i figure if i start twot in october i can finish them all before memory) but there is something in the first 2 or 3 books, and i think it is in the second with her thinking about something in the first where she thinks about moir needing to be at the last battle for rand to have a good chance at winning. no certainty, that he will loose if she isn't there, or that he will win if she is, just that his chances are better if she is there.

and it is separate from the viewing she has that she thinks failed. at the end of tom that viewing came true i think.

[Terez]

i wish i were one who would look stuff up, but luckers is lurking around somewhere, and i swear he likes to make me or anyone look stupid =P and i actually like being made a fool of, just more good data for me to digest. but early on min does make mention of moiraine specifically needing to be at the last battle for rand to have a better chance.

 

No she didn't, other than the viewing under discussion. Deadsy knows what she's talking about when it comes to Moiraine; you should listen when she tells you something. :p