Ben explains everthing.... ish

[FarShainMael]

Or, that humans could mend what the Creator had made and they themselves had broken? Perhaps properly Sealing the Bore has more to do with allowing the Pattern to function as intended than it does active intervention.

 

Ta'veren.........

 

 

Edited to cross page boundary.

[Finnssss22]

Or, that humans could mend what the Creator had made and they themselves had broken? Perhaps properly Sealing the Bore has more to do with allowing the Pattern to function as intended than it does active intervention.

 

Maybe but he clearly believes he needs the women to do it right.

I always got the impression from what he's been saying lately, along with Egwene's dream and what Herid Fel said that he has to completely destroy the old prison and make a new one from scratch.

I don't think that's going to be the hard part though heh.

The hard part will be holding the DO back while to does this and that's where Fain and/or his Dagger comes into play.

I say and/or because I still firmly believe Perrin will kill Fain, leaving only the Dagger to be used.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It is not exactly LTT fault the women didn't agree. Latra Posae contributed to that. It was a combination of multiple factiors, I don't think it was Lews Therin's fault. He DID save the world, the Taint is a small price to pay compared to the DO destroying the Pattern entirely. He was arrogant, and yes surely he made mistakes, but the Sealing wasn't one of them. It had unfortunate side-effects, but it needed to be done, and better 1 half of the source than both, which is why the pattern made Latra Posae go against Lews Therin's plan.

[Finnssss22]

It is not exactly LTT fault the women didn't agree. Latra Posae contributed to that. It was a combination of multiple factiors, I don't think it was Lews Therin's fault. He DID save the world, the Taint is a small price to pay compared to the DO destroying the Pattern entirely. He was arrogant, and yes surely he made mistakes, but the Sealing wasn't one of them. It had unfortunate side-effects, but it needed to be done, and better 1 half of the source than both, which is why the pattern made Latra Posae go against Lews Therin's plan.

 

I think you're trying to make a "Chicken or the Egg" argument where there isn't one.

He clearly feels that alienating the women was the mistake, he says as much in ToM 3.

He realises now that what he did was only a stop-gap messure and to do it right, he must have the support of the women.

Hell, there are hints that he even knew at the time that it was only a stop-gap measure but was left with no choice due to how he handled his relations with the women.

I think he clearly feels that the way he dealt with the woman (badly) is what forced him into doing what he did.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It is not exactly LTT fault the women didn't agree. Latra Posae contributed to that. It was a combination of multiple factiors, I don't think it was Lews Therin's fault. He DID save the world, the Taint is a small price to pay compared to the DO destroying the Pattern entirely. He was arrogant, and yes surely he made mistakes, but the Sealing wasn't one of them. It had unfortunate side-effects, but it needed to be done, and better 1 half of the source than both, which is why the pattern made Latra Posae go against Lews Therin's plan.

 

I think you're trying to make a "Chicken or the Egg" argument where there isn't one.

He clearly feels that alienating the women was the mistake, he says as much in ToM 3.

He realises now that what he did was only a stop-gap messure and to do it right, he must have the support of the women.

Hell, there are hints that he even knew at the time that it was only a stop-gap measure but was left with no choice due to how he handled his relations with the women.

I think he clearly feels that the way he dealt with the woman (badly) is what forced him into doing what he did.

 

No he, he thinks no such thing. It was equally Lews Therin and Latra who were to blame.

 

"The last time I tried to seal the bore, I was forced to do it without the help of women. That is part of what led to the disaster, though they may have been wise to deny me their strength. Well, blame must be spread evenly, but I will not make the same mistakes a second time. I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used."

 

Where do you get that he dealt with the women poorly? Give me one quote that says this. The women denied LTT's plan, no matter what argument, so he went and did it without them because there was no choice.

 

Both did what the pattern demanded. LTT sealed the bore, however incompletely, and the women remained untainted so that the world would not be destroyed. Neither side did anything wrong here, as it turned out.

 

Have a read of the Strike at Shayol Ghul, to get a better understanding of what went down. It explains what happened leading up to the sealing.

 

 

Support for the use of the great sa'angreal and opposition to attempting to implant the seals centered around a woman named Latra Posae Decume. Apparently a speaker of considerable force and persuasion, she gathered a large bloc around her, but what assured her victory was an agreement she reached with every female Aes Sedai of significant strength on the side of the Light.

 

Lews Therin argued again for his plan, acknowledging the risks but saying that was now the only chance, yet Posae maintained her opposition. Belief in the danger of misplacing the seals had spread, and many more female Aes Sedai had pledged to the "Fateful Concord," including a great number who were nowhere near strong enough to qualify for the raiding party circle. Tempers and passions rose, and an apparently unprecedented division along male-female lines began to develop among the Aes Sedai in general, if not within the Hall itself. Finally the Hall decided to continue with Latra Posae's plan, and her people began working to smuggle the access ter'angreal out of Shadow-controlled territory. (2)

 

 

The final defeat was at hand; the will of the people to resist was fading, and should any one of the three major offensives commanded by Forsaken break through the end would be only a matter of time, perhaps as little as months. With Latra Posae's opposition continuing in the face of these events (4), and the female Aes Sedai holding to their pledge and thus making use of a circle impossible (the lines of division had hardened to a point where many female Aes Sedai refused to speak to male Aes Sedai, and the reverse as well), Lews Therin resolved to carry out his plan without the approval of, or even approaching, the Hall. Plainly it was going to be impossible to hold the huge sa'angreal long enough for the access ter'angreal to be smuggled out. In Lews Therin's view, there was no longer any choice.

 

The division was there, but it places no blame on either side. It was two factions who disagreed, and frustration over the near defeat boiled over.

[Finnssss22]

It is not exactly LTT fault the women didn't agree. Latra Posae contributed to that. It was a combination of multiple factiors, I don't think it was Lews Therin's fault. He DID save the world, the Taint is a small price to pay compared to the DO destroying the Pattern entirely. He was arrogant, and yes surely he made mistakes, but the Sealing wasn't one of them. It had unfortunate side-effects, but it needed to be done, and better 1 half of the source than both, which is why the pattern made Latra Posae go against Lews Therin's plan.

 

I think you're trying to make a "Chicken or the Egg" argument where there isn't one.

He clearly feels that alienating the women was the mistake, he says as much in ToM 3.

He realises now that what he did was only a stop-gap messure and to do it right, he must have the support of the women.

Hell, there are hints that he even knew at the time that it was only a stop-gap measure but was left with no choice due to how he handled his relations with the women.

I think he clearly feels that the way he dealt with the woman (badly) is what forced him into doing what he did.

 

No he, he thinks no such thing. It was equally Lews Therin and Latra who were to blame.

 

"The last time I tried to seal the bore, I was forced to do it without the help of women. That is part of what led to the disaster, though they may have been wise to deny me their strength. Well, blame must be spread evenly, but I will not make the same mistakes a second time. I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used."

 

Where do you get that he dealt with the women poorly? Give me one quote that says this. The women denied LTT's plan, no matter what argument, so he went and did it without them because there was no choice.

 

Both did what the pattern demanded. LTT sealed the bore, however incompletely, and the women remained untainted so that the world would not be destroyed.

 

Have a read of the Strike at Shayol Ghul, to get a better understanding of what went down. It explains what happened leading up to the sealing.

 

You mean how he feels that he should of been the "bigger man" and tried harder to work through their differences for the sake of the "big picture" so he doesn't end up being forced into the corner he was?

Agree to disagree but that's the way I hear it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I don't mind that you have a different opinion, I just want to see the evidence that suggest this is true. I just have no idea where you are getting this from.

 

I am not trying to antagonize, I am generally curious to know where it says this, as I cannot remember. It would put things in a different light.

[TristanWebb]

One of my favorite ironies in the books is that the women opposed the usage of the seals, but once it was done they claimed ownership of them. And now Rand is saying they were right and the women are all 'no, you can't break them, we love them so much'.

[Suttree]

LTT's mistake was that he alienated the women and arrogantly thought he could succeed without them.

That was the mistake, the tainting of Saidin was a product of that mistake.

 

How is that? We know per RJ that if the women had been involved Saidar would have been tainted as well.

[Finnssss22]

LTT's mistake was that he alienated the women and arrogantly thought he could succeed without them.

That was the mistake, the tainting of Saidin was a product of that mistake.

 

How is that? We know per RJ that if the women had been involved Saidar would have been tainted as well.

 

Well the original plan was to use the Choedan Kal's to create a giant barrier to give them time to come up with something but they were taken off the table by the Forsaken.

LTT then proposed his plan, which was turned down by the women.

Instead of accepting that and working with the women to come up with a better plan, he carried out his plan with just the men anyway.

So again, being unwilling to work something else out with the woman was the cause, the taint on Saidin the result.

Whether or not RJ said that Saidar would of also been tainted is irrelevant as the women were never going to go along with LTT's plan in the first place.

[Suttree]

Instead of accepting that and working with the women to come up with a better plan, he carried out his plan with just the men anyway.

So again, being unwilling to work something else out with the woman was the cause, the taint on Saidin the result.

Whether or not RJ said that Saidar would of also been tainted is irrelevant as the women were never going to go along with LTT's plan in the first place.

 

Ahh ok, was just wondering where you were going with that. So you are assuming that if hey had worked together there would have been a third option and it was LTT's faults that alienated the women?

[Barid Bel Medar]

LTT's mistake was that he alienated the women and arrogantly thought he could succeed without them.

That was the mistake, the tainting of Saidin was a product of that mistake.

 

How is that? We know per RJ that if the women had been involved Saidar would have been tainted as well.

 

Well the original plan was to use the Choedan Kal's to create a giant barrier to give them time to come up with something but they were taken off the table by the Forsaken.

LTT then proposed his plan, which was turned down by the women.

Instead of accepting that and working with the women to come up with a better plan, he carried out his plan with just the men anyway.

So again, being unwilling to work something else out with the woman was the cause, the taint on Saidin the result.

Whether or not RJ said that Saidar would of also been tainted is irrelevant as the women were never going to go along with LTT's plan in the first place.

 

That's not what happened at all. While I agree with the sentiment that Rand/LTT now think they need the women, and want it too be much smoother, it wasn't LTT"s fault, nor did he just ignore the women, causing disaster. He was desperate, there was no other choice, it wasn't out of pride that they failed.

 

Here is a few of the main points from the text.

 

Lews Therin himself, who intended to personally lead this huge raid, admitted that even with sucess, he expected few of the attackers to survive, perhaps none. Worse, several experts claimed that if the seals were not placed with exact precision, the resulting strain would, instead of sealing up the Bore, rip it open, freeing the Dark One completely.

 

Another plan at the time centered around two huge sa'angreal, one attuned to saidin and one to saidar, both so powerful that using them required special ter'angreal, like miniature versions of the great sa'angreal, constructed especially for the purpose of accessing the sa'angreal.

 

Detractors pointed out that the Bore had enlarged since it was first drilled, and behind the barricade erected by the sa'angreal it would continue to grow, so that eventually the Dark One might free himself within the barrier. The barrier might well contain the Dark One when all he could do was reach through the relatively small Bore, but could it hold back the Dark One let loose?

 

Support for the use of the great sa'angreal and opposition to attempting to implant the seals centered around a woman named Latra Posae Decume. Apparently a speaker of considerable force and persuasion, she gathered a large bloc around her, but what assured her victory was an agreement she reached with every female Aes Sedai of significant strength on the side of the Light.

 

ews Therin's plan was too rash, too dangerous, and no woman who agreed to the Concord would take part in it.

 

. Work on the sa'angreal, in the form of two huge statues, was rushed forward. (1)

 

Just as the paired sa'angreal were completed, disaster struck. The access ter'angreal were being made at a place far removed from the sa'angreal ....

, and that region was overrun by forces under Sammael. The only good point in it was that the ter'angreal themselves had been hidden and the place where they were made destroyed .... so that neither Sammael nor anyone else for the Shadow knew that any of these things were now within their grasp. The side of the Light still had the sa'angreal, but no safe way to access them; without the ter'angreal it was certain that even the strongest Aes Sedai would be burned out instantly by the huge flow of the One Power.

 

 

Lews Therin argued again for his plan, acknowledging the risks but saying that was now the only chance, yet Posae maintained her opposition. Belief in the danger of misplacing the seals had spread, and many more female Aes Sedai had pledged to the "Fateful Concord," including a great number who were nowhere near strong enough to qualify for the raiding party circle.

 

Finally the Hall decided to continue with Latra Posae's plan, and her people began working to smuggle the access ter'angreal out of Shadow-controlled territory.

 

Almost immediately on the heels of Sammael's advance, armies commanded by Demandred and Be'lal struck heavily. At this point in the war, halting an advance by the Shadow was the best that could be hoped for;

 

With Latra Posae's opposition continuing in the face of these events, and the female Aes Sedai holding to their pledge and thus making use of a circle impossible (the lines of division had hardened to a point where many female Aes Sedai refused to speak to male Aes Sedai, and the reverse as well), Lews Therin resolved to carry out his plan without the approval of, or even approaching, the Hall. Plainly it was going to be impossible to hold the huge sa'angreal long enough for the access ter'angreal to be smuggled out. In Lews Therin's view, there was no longer any choice.

 

This is what happened to the access keys

 

According to the manuscript pages, all of the agents responsible for this smuggling were caught, though that was not known until events had far outrun anyone's plans. They were brave men and women, for although those who were not killed outright were tortured, and though some revealed the purpose of their mission, none betrayed the location of any of the access ter'angreal. Still, the only real result was that the ter'angreal were widely scattered across areas held for the Shadow, their locations and even their existence to remain hidden for millennia.

[Finnssss22]

Instead of accepting that and working with the women to come up with a better plan, he carried out his plan with just the men anyway.

So again, being unwilling to work something else out with the woman was the cause, the taint on Saidin the result.

Whether or not RJ said that Saidar would of also been tainted is irrelevant as the women were never going to go along with LTT's plan in the first place.

 

Ahh ok, was just wondering where you were going with that. So you are assuming that if hey had worked together there would have been a third option and it was LTT's faults that alienated the women?

 

Yes and no.

Yes that they might have come up with a third option and no I don't think it was solely LTT's fault with the women. I think both sides were pretty entrenched at the time.

But I think LTT/Rand blames himself for not putting aside his arrogance and trying harder to work with the women even if they weren't going to put away theirs.

He thinks of himself as a better man now that would be willing to do that. Hence the "raised better" comment to Min.

[yoniy0]

It's actually ironic, considering the manner in which he handled Egwene. Sure, that would get him her support, no question about it.

 

Barid, we've all read the Strike, no need to quote the whole thing here. I think Finnssss aims at the fact that had they worked together instead of each sticking to their guns, a better plan might've been reached. Was that LTT's doing? Who knows. Surely, though, he shares part of the blame; LTT undeniably blames himself for his pride and arrogance (both as himself and as Rand).

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, I agree.

 

Although I would point out it was the Fateful Concord that wouldn't budge. LTT went along with their plans until it went to the dogs. But yeah, no doubt that LTT shares the blame, I doubt it was all reason and tolerance on his part.

 

Really though, I don't think there were any mistakes made as such, on either side. I think it was the pressure of the Shadow closing in so fast that they kinda panicked. But eh, unless we get a more detailed account of it, it is anyone's guess as to how it happened.

 

Anyway, moving on I suppose.

[Naggash]

Well, Rand does say he was raised better this time.

 

That was a bit ambiguous of Rand, though, wasn't it! Rand talks about being 'raised' twice. First, to Cads:

 

"If you wish, you may call me Rand Sedai. I am, so far as I know, the only male Aes Sedai still alive who was properly raised but who never turned to the Shadow."

 

The expression 'properly raised' seems here to refer to the process of becoming AS, as it did in ACoS 11 for Egwene, and ACoS 30 for the Kin.

 

The second time being 'raised' was mentioned it was quite different. Later in the same chapter, we have

 

"Lews Therin was mad."

 

"At the end," Rand said. "And yes, he made mistakes. I made mistakes. I grew arrogant, desperate. But there's a difference this time. A great one."

 

"What difference?"

 

He smiled. "This time, I was raised better...

 

...It's because of Tam,because of the people around me. You, Perrin, Nynaeve, Mat, Aviendha, Elayne, Moiraine. He tried very hard to break me. I think if I'd been the same as I was so long ago, he would have succeeded."

 

This is pretty clearly referring to not just Rand's upbringing, but his social environment. LTT's own 'social enviroment' may well have been what made him so arrogant.

I think in this case I must apply 'sometimes a cat is just a cat'. To me the 'this time i was raised better, if i had been the same as before he would probably have broken me' (paraphrasing) means plainly the obvious. Two River's lads are always awsome, as we've seen through the books. If LTT had come to the TR demanding obedience with the nose pointing high he would have first-hand witnessed in 0,2 a proper scowlding by Nynaeve and the Circle.

 

It still doesn't make any sense. LTT successfully sealed the bore. His major mistake was that saidin was tainted because his plan wasn't flawless. As far as I know, we don't know of any other specific mistakes he made. Killing his family wasn't a mistake. It was an effect of the taint.

 

What does his failure to have a perfect plan have to do with how he was raised? Nothing. At least, nothing that we're privy to.

Actually it's not only about his mistake. Like Finnssss say he was arrogant enough to think that he could do it better than the Creator himself and only with Saidin. But more importantly, Rand sais that if he had been risen like LTT was, the DO would have succeeded in breaking him, so that's the main point. Two Rivers lads are so stubborn you know.

Maybe it also is some kind of forshadowing for him obeying someone else or bending to someone or something like that (maybe to Tuon in the end¿?¿?), which LTT would have never done.

[Orderofolde]

It is not exactly LTT fault the women didn't agree. Latra Posae contributed to that. It was a combination of multiple factiors, I don't think it was Lews Therin's fault. He DID save the world, the Taint is a small price to pay compared to the DO destroying the Pattern entirely. He was arrogant, and yes surely he made mistakes, but the Sealing wasn't one of them. It had unfortunate side-effects, but it needed to be done, and better 1 half of the source than both, which is why the pattern made Latra Posae go against Lews Therin's plan.

I agree, except that I don't think that it was the pattern that forced LP to go against LTT. Not unless for this Age come again this was what needed to happen. I am sure that in other ages or at least one at some point around the turning of the Wheel the DO bores his own hole into the pattern. The very nature of his True Power would ensure this, in the very least it created a thin spot which allowed Mierin and Beidomon to be able to bore through. True, this Age he'd worn away the seals but they were initially flawed. I'm thinking this is the point where the Dragon seals him away perfectly requiring the longest stretch before the DO can bore through, probably long enough for everyone to forget he's even there and we have a happy society where everyone holds hands and sings. There is evidence of that, too ;)

[Benjamin Lockett]

I see it as every soul is a base which is shaped by its upbringing which is what happened with Rand and LTT being diffferent. Next we know when a Hero is waiting to be reborn we are shown they remember all their past lives. What the taint does for Rand is to destroy the barrier that prevent's him remembering his past lives once he has been reborn. Therefore the voice is LLT and Rand is LTT.

 

The whole bore sealing argument is tough because we know with saidar and saidin Rand was able to get rid of the taint so would that work while he built a new barrier this one using both saidin and saidar. The real question is what was the barrier made from in the first place. If it was the op then this is probably the way to seal it otherwise its a stopgap.

 

Whats more interesting is the size of the bore and how it changes along with the movement of the where it retreats after Rand beats Ishy. This implies there is more to ishamel since he is linked to the lanscape or does it show the amount of power the dark one was using to find him and his other lost forsaken at this time.

The prolgoue of book 6 shows this best with demandrad talking about a blockage and how the size has changed it always makes me wonder how big it is now compared to the age of lengends. Rand seems to understand this when he says it would strengthen the dark one but not as much as waiting would.

[Naggash]

What the taint does for Rand is to destroy the barrier that prevent's him remembering his past lives once he has been reborn. Therefore the voice is LLT and Rand is LTT.

I can't believe you're bringing this up again...I think you're wrong, and I won't repeat myself gosh! >,<

 

Whats more interesting is the size of the bore and how it changes along with the movement of the where it retreats after Rand beats Ishy. This implies there is more to ishamel since he is linked to the lanscape or does it show the amount of power the dark one was using to find him and his other lost forsaken at this time.

The prolgoue of book 6 shows this best with demandrad talking about a blockage and how the size has changed it always makes me wonder how big it is now compared to the age of lengends. Rand seems to understand this when he says it would strengthen the dark one but not as much as waiting would.

I don't even know where to start, I don't understand half of it.

[Benjamin Lockett]

What is the patch on the darkone's prison is like Asmodean's shield with the seals acting as soft points with the pysical seal being like the aes sedai maintaining it.

 

Also I think that in order for the darkone to be able to destroy the seals one had to be brought into the bore to weaken it and the intial barrier. I believe this was the seal that Taim brought to Rand. Tell me what you think.

[Barid Bel Medar]

The seals are the "focus points" of the weave that LTT and the Hundred Companions used to seal the bore and trap the DO again. Easiest way to explain would be they are tent pegs of a tent, they are not the tent themselves, however, they are used to hold the tent up and together. Destroy all of the seals, the weaving falls apart - DO free to touch the world again.

 

The Bore has not grown since LTT sealed away the DO in the AoL.

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 2nd, 2010

TOM Signing Report - Matt Hatch (Paraphrased)

 

MATT HATCH

Is the Bore larger or smaller than it was at the time of the Sealing?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

The same size (95% sure).

MATT HATCH

So, are the seals, even in their weakened state, the reason the Bore has not grown any larger?

BRANDON SANDERSON

As far as I know, yes

.

 

When the Seals are broken, the DO can continue widening the bore. To seal the DO again properly, those seals must be removed before new ones are created. Like you don't build a house on the rubble of a house that fell down, thus, "clear the rubble".

 

The seals weaken most likely because the weave that connects the seals is connected to the DO, and the DO (knowing that the TP can destroy Cuendillar) erodes the seals over time. Obviously something about the weave that sealed the DO away protected the Cuendillar from being broken straight away with the use of the TP.

[TristanWebb]

I swear there is a Demandred PoV saying the bore is larger than at the time of sealing, but Word of God over PoVs I guess.

[Terez]

Than at the time he woke up, not at the time of the sealing (meaning, before it was actually sealed).

[FarShainMael]

I swear there is a Demandred PoV saying the bore is larger than at the time of sealing, but Word of God over PoVs I guess.

 

Not at the sealing, no:

 

..the Bore was still blocked, though more tenuously than when he had wakened from his long sleep and broken free of his own prison in it. Blocked, but larger than when he woke. Still not as large as when he had been cast into it with his fellows at the end of the War of Power, but at each visit since waking, a little wider.

 

And it's growing.

[Diamondmask]

Hi Guys. I have been rereading WoT again - and am on Lord of Chaos. I read that Demandred visited Greandal and his new coterie dressed in gray and how well he suited the 'modern' clothes and fabrics on page 67, then on page 82 later Davrim Bashere turns up wearing a gray jacket. I have always had doubts about Bashere, but does anyone else think he could be Demandred or a Dark Friend? Or is this a deliberate red (or gray) herring? Sometimes I think it's Taim who is Demandred but it could be Bashere - it drives me mad. Anyway, what are your ideas?