big ol' balescream

[FanoLan]

Did Faile experience three "balescreams" after she left Sevanna's tent and was being debriefed by the WO? Perrin and those in his tent when Tylee came to report on the other two approaching clans also experienced them. The descriptions of the effect seem similar if not exact. Doesn't seem like the radius is too large, so it could be interesting to try to determine the potential targets of the threepeat balefire.

 

I asked Brandon that and got RAFO'd with a grin (and in, he said I should say it was a RAFO with a grin)

 

Now that's a reply to whet the appetite even more.

 

Maybe a little sumpin' sumpin' in Murandy.....Roedran who? Or potential missing/replaced members of the Band from the crew that stayed behind? This one will distract me for a while. Ahhhh, gonna drive myself crazy with the possibilites.

 

Have to figure if it was balescream effects, it was not near any of the crew that felt it In Bandar Eban or else they would have commented on the prior experience. I would have to go back to the text to see where Sorilea, Cads, et al were chilling at the time of the Perrin/Faile incident. Guess we shouldn't assume everyone that felt it reflected so in the text so maybe a Black Tower incident. Or maybe Seanchan related.

 

Well, with the Demandred instructions and proximity of the experience to Murandy, that'll be my guess ..... for now.

 

One of the things I suggested was that the location is curious... as in, we just saw a Super Pack of Darkhounds in the book previous, Darkhounds whose prey was evading them (which means said prey was something pretty serious). So yes, a super pack of the type of Shadowspawn that it sometimes takes balefire to kill was in the area, and then we get what appears to be a balescream (and the sheer number of Darkhounds may in itself supply the need for such a powerful use of balefire)....

 

Ugh, I really wish you wouldn't have included anything after this point. Is there a function similiar to the little spoiler tab that would indicate "the following info is not in the published material and potentially relevant." Haven't yet figured out how to intentionally un-remember something : )

 

In addition, Brandon has shown in his answers about the Super Pack that he regards them as dealt with, from a plot perspective--he thought it had already been shown who they were hunting, and when he realised it hadn't he still stated that he only MAY include that information in aMoL and that if we didn't we should ask him again, which clearly seems to show that they've either done whatever it was they were supposed to do, or else there would be no doubt (i.e. if there were a scene planned based on them, there would be no 'may' about it, and that the 'may' suggests, at best, someone referencing them--or else failed and died.

 

Indeed, if he knew the balescream was the Darkhounds dying, it would explain how he got confused as to us already knowing what happened to him--as in maybe he came across in the notes something saying 'Darkhounds killed by balefire in KoD'.

 

Of course this would kill the commonly held belief that the Darkhounds were hunting Fain... *shrug*

 

This is perturbing, probably beyond an appropriate level given the depth and breadth of WoT. In the early books, DH's represented a significant threat to the Lightsiders. Once we see the BF-necessary version, they're even more dangerous than Lurks and Draghkar. And then the megapack is introduced and highlighted as unheard of by the AS DH expert (fortunately at hand) and Elyas, longest living Wolfbrother. And then ...... chirp, chirp? /rant Hopefully, he was giving an appropriately AS response and all will be revealed in AMoL. The Last Hunt is here after all.

 

Do we know whether the megapack is BF-necessary or not? I know we have not seen members of this pack and thus do not know for certain, but not all DHs can only be killed by BF, correct? Do we have any indications whether this is a newly created pack and whether all newly created DHs are BF-necessary? Could be that the megapack was stashed and retrieved, a la stasis box or deep in the Blight, or mirror world (any other theoretical source of Shadowspawn). Maybe this is the proto-pack and only individuals of this pack are BF-necessary?

 

Good reasoning on BrS' potential confusion, and thanks for the discussion. I was never wholly convinced that Fain was the target, though it does seem the logical conclusion. Which is why I mistrusted it as the answer : )

[FanoLan]

It's a pretty huge stretch, though, considering that we would know if they had been killed by one of the Lightsiders with balefire, and they wouldn't need Darkhounds to find one of the Forsaken, or even a Darkfriend channeler. So who would it be? Without a plausible quarry, there's really no theory there. Also, for the record:

 

http://www.theorylan...ain.php?i=554#9

 

So it seems you disagree with the DHs as target, but what about the Perrin/Faile balescream event? Appears you do not think Verin was involved, but is that because of her specifically or do you not think it was balescream?

[FanoLan]

Geez, another thought on the topic of balescreams. Could it be that the more the Pattern unravels the less balefire impact is needed to create the scream? Sort of like cumulatively lessening the resistance of the medium (the Pattern); each thread that's been removed makes it easier for the "vibrations" to be felt in the remaining weave. Hmmmm?

 

And on a related note, would a balescream resonate in Tel'aran'rhiod? Either from a real world use or from someone in T'a'R in the flesh like Rahvin getting flamed by Rand? Nyn didn't feel anything. Was that because the amount of Saidin was not strong enough, or because the impact on the Pattern was not that great, or because they were in T'a'R. Or perhaps the Pattern was still coherent enough at the time to not produce a "scream" no matter who, how much or where.

[Terez]

It's a pretty huge stretch, though, considering that we would know if they had been killed by one of the Lightsiders with balefire, and they wouldn't need Darkhounds to find one of the Forsaken, or even a Darkfriend channeler. So who would it be? Without a plausible quarry, there's really no theory there. Also, for the record:

 

http://www.theorylan...ain.php?i=554#9

 

So it seems you disagree with the DHs as target, but what about the Perrin/Faile balescream event? Appears you do not think Verin was involved, but is that because of her specifically or do you not think it was balescream?

 

It was either a result of balefire or the True Power, and balefire does seem more likely. I just don't see any reason to believe that the Darkhounds were the target. (The fact that balefire is the only way that they can be killed is not very convincing to me, since we have no clue who they might have been after that has the ability to balefire anything.)

[FanoLan]

It's a pretty huge stretch, though, considering that we would know if they had been killed by one of the Lightsiders with balefire, and they wouldn't need Darkhounds to find one of the Forsaken, or even a Darkfriend channeler. So who would it be? Without a plausible quarry, there's really no theory there. Also, for the record:

 

http://www.theorylan...ain.php?i=554#9

 

So it seems you disagree with the DHs as target, but what about the Perrin/Faile balescream event? Appears you do not think Verin was involved, but is that because of her specifically or do you not think it was balescream?

 

It was either a result of balefire or the True Power, and balefire does seem more likely. I just don't see any reason to believe that the Darkhounds were the target. (The fact that balefire is the only way that they can be killed is not very convincing to me, since we have no clue who they might have been after that has the ability to balefire anything.)

 

Yeah that mention by Graendal that the TP could have unintended consquences (or something like that) has been a bone for me to chew for a while now. I wonder how many of the "bubbles of evil" the characters encounter are actually some side-effect of the TP channeling. Particularly the dried-out forest next to Perrin's camp, that one really strikes me as more than a bubble. We'll see if the TP side-effects get any play in AMoL, I just sure would like to see/hear of some.

 

Just want to note that if it was the DH mega-pack as the target for balefire, their quarry may not have been the same person who balefired them. I'm sure we could speculate from now to Jan. on the details, but it is definitely possible someone else intervened in that hunt.

[jsbrads]

if y'all wanna read the balescream of grandel's castle, it is nothing like what Perrin/Faile experienced, that seems more like DO's manipulation of nature... around same time things start to go wrong, people turning into bugs and the like.

[FanoLan]

if y'all wanna read the balescream of grandel's castle, it is nothing like what Perrin/Faile experienced, that seems more like DO's manipulation of nature... around same time things start to go wrong, people turning into bugs and the like.

 

Chose to follow your advice and revisit the scenes. Couple of points before the text; RJ/BrS would not use the exact same description for each PoV, also the effects from each use of balefire are not exactly the same - strength of the weave, the target, the timing of the weave, the distance from the source of the effects - many factors would probably alter the exact effects of any particular use of balefire.

 

From Faile (KoD Ch.5): "...everything in front of her eyes rippled. She rippled! It was not imagination. Meira's blue eyes widened as far as they could go; she had felt it, too. Again everything rippled, including herself, harder than before. In shock, Faile stood up straight and let go of her robe. A third time the world rippled, harder still, and as it passed through her, she felt as if she might blow away in a breeze, or simply dissipate in a mist." A couple of paragraphs later, "Of course she was solid. She had only felt as though she were turning to mist."

 

Perrin (KoD Ch. 26): "Suddenly, everything seemed to ripple in Perrin's sight. He felt himself ripple. Breane gave a cry and dropped the pitcher. The world rippled again, and Berelain clutched his arm. Tylee's hand seemed frozen in that odd gesture, thumb and forefigure forming a crescent. Everything rippled for a third time, and Perrin felt as if he were made of fog, as if the world were fog with a high wind coming."

 

Min (TGS Ch. 37): "Something hit Min, something like a shocking wave in the air. It wasn't a physical blast, and it didn't make her stumble, but it twisted her insides about. The forest around them - still lit by the glowing access key in Rand's hands - seemed to warp and shake. It was as if the world itself were groaning in agony."

 

Sorilea (TGS Ch. 37) "'We felt the world warping from here, but did not know what had caused it. We assumed it to be the Dark One's work.""

 

 

So...."rippling" vs. "warping"; "insides turning to mist" vs. "twisted her insides about"; "world were fog" vs. "world warping"

 

Awfully similar language to completely disregard the comparison. Especially considering the potential variables as to any particular use of balefire and the resultant balescream. And the fact we have a second author picking up threads to finish the weaving of this tale.

[shortkut]

Perrin's timeline is screwed up. Has anyone placed exactly when that occurred?

[jsbrads]

fanolan: Sorilea sounds like she is feeling a change in the distance, not in her person and Rand's balefire was the biggest in modern history (by an unimaginable factor) and it was still a local phenomena, with dissipation proportional to distance.

With Perrin/Faile it was felt everywhere equally, perhaps a global phenomena

[Cybertrolloc]

Perrin keeps track of the days since the PLoD began, and his channelers sense the Cleansing.

 

AFAIK, no other characters have commented on nor have any since.

 

By the edition of the book I have, they seem same day, but time of day seems pretty different between Faile and Perrin, and they're about 50 miles apart (from memory). Bubble of Evil have always been more localized than that iirc.

 

Descriptions between that and stress on the pattern due to balefire don't seem similar enough to hang my hat on that, but wouldn't say it's loony either :)

 

Oh god, I agree with Terez...at least it isn't for the same reason.

[Terez]

The ripples were several days apart; certain details like the knots on Perrin's rope and Galina's disappearance/return make that clear.

[shortkut]

Are we sure that perrin's timeline and faile's are actuall in sync?

[Terez]

No one said they were. We can figure out how they line up from the details I mentioned.

[FanoLan]

fanolan: Sorilea sounds like she is feeling a change in the distance, not in her person and Rand's balefire was the biggest in modern history (by an unimaginable factor) and it was still a local phenomena, with dissipation proportional to distance.

With Perrin/Faile it was felt everywhere equally, perhaps a global phenomena

 

Well, Sorilea is pretty far away when she experiences it - Batrin's Narrow is in the NE mountains of Arad Doman and she is in Bandar Eban, on the coast.

 

I can't recall exactly how far from Malden Perrin was camped - think it was 3-4 days out, which would make it not much more than 80 miles or so.

 

The timing was bothering me on the re-read for sure. Perrin's PoV starts with the Seanchan at the aqueduct a few hours before the 54th day of Faile's captivity. He eventually Travels back to camp and it seems to be still dark. After walking in from the Traveling ground, Perrin heads to his tent and converses with Tylee, Annoura, Berelain et al. Maybe his camp is far enough west of Malden to account for the difference becasue Faie mentions that it is morning as she leaves Sevanna's tent, "Faile stepped out into the cold, gray morning drizzle...." Therava mentions breaking the fast before dawn and chides Sevanna for becoming an indolent wetlander since Sevanna is just starting her day. So it seems to still be early, but definitely after the sun has risen.

 

Of course if they are different days, then it matters not ... other than to show the balefirer likes to get an early start on things : )

[Suttree]

According to Steven Cooper's timeline they are 5 days apart...

[FanoLan]

According to Steven Cooper's timeline they are 5 days apart...

Intersting, very interesting. I have not really looked at Mr. Cooper's work, is it pretty well accurate for things that can be determined from the text?

[Terez]

Yeah, when he's not sure he uses question marks, but most events can be placed well against each other via timestamps (until Brandon's books at which point Steven gave up).

[shortkut]

According to Steven Cooper's timeline they are 5 days apart...

that's what i was thinking. It makes more sense that the ripples were the same day. It would be funny if perrin. Timeline was far ahead of everyone else's at that time before falling woefully behind. It pretty obvious that RJ was trying to stretch it out as the series got longer and longer.

[FanoLan]

Yeah, when he's not sure he uses question marks, but most events can be placed well against each other via timestamps (until Brandon's books at which point Steven gave up).

 

Lol at the image of someone throwing up their hands in frustration when working to specify a timeline including tGS and ToM.

 

So, to take a stab at summing up the proffered causes of the Faile/Perrin ripples; they likely resulted from one of the following:

- two separate balefire attacks, five days apart and relatively close to Malden

- or a repeat-effect bubble of evil event the likes of which readers have not otherwise seen firsthand

- or possiblly unkown side-effects from TP channeling which would have had to occur in (or close) to Shaido Camp Malden and then again five days later in or close to Perrin's camp

 

We have heard descriptions of repeating bubble-events like the beetles, but the closest we've actually seen to a duplicate effect would be the dried out trees near Whitebride and the dead-zone in Tear or maybe Perrin's axe in the Stone and the levitating weapons in his camp before the Whitecloak trial. Both of those examples do display a greater variation than the remarkable similarity of the Faile and Perrin ripple experiences, so for me, uncertainty still prevails.

[shortkut]

Or they felt the same thing. Other possibility is they were so far ahead timeline wise before that they felt rand go supernova.