Heroes of the Horn

[Icedragon]

I had a question regarding the Heroes of the Horn;

 

Do they always have the same name and appearence? I seem to recall a mention that they don't. So are the heroes in TAR the immediatly previous lives of the heroes?

[Terez]

No, their names are always different. Birgitte has been Teadra and Maerion, for example. As for appearance, there is some debate on whether their appearance is that of their last incarnation or their most iconic. We do know that Birgitte's clothes, for example, are 2000 years old, but she wears them in Tel'aran'rhiod because she likes them. She is born something like once every 100-200 years, though, so obviously the clothes don't come from her last incarnation. Lews Therin's appearance is totally different from Rand's, aside from height, and obviously the name is different.

 

For future reference, the simple question thread is for stuff like this.

[1Brotherbill]

No, their names are always different. Birgitte has been Teadra and Maerion, for example. As for appearance, there is some debate on whether their appearance is that of their last incarnation or their most iconic. We do know that Birgitte's clothes, for example, are 2000 years old, but she wears them in Tel'aran'rhiod because she likes them. She is born something like once every 100-200 years, though, so obviously the clothes don't come from her last incarnation. Lews Therin's appearance is totally different from Rand's, aside from height, and obviously the name is different.

 

For future reference, the simple question thread is for stuff like this.

 

100 to 200 years? Really, I don't think it is that short of a time. Hawking was over a thousand years. Most of the legends are way older than that. If there was only lets say seventy years between the death of Brigitte and her rebirth it wouldn't be all that much of a legend. I think the time between rebirths are a little bit longer. They might have been shorter for this instance but on the average it has to be way longer than 100-200 years.

[Terez]

No, their names are always different. Birgitte has been Teadra and Maerion, for example. As for appearance, there is some debate on whether their appearance is that of their last incarnation or their most iconic. We do know that Birgitte's clothes, for example, are 2000 years old, but she wears them in Tel'aran'rhiod because she likes them. She is born something like once every 100-200 years, though, so obviously the clothes don't come from her last incarnation. Lews Therin's appearance is totally different from Rand's, aside from height, and obviously the name is different.

 

For future reference, the simple question thread is for stuff like this.

 

100 to 200 years? Really, I don't think it is that short of a time.

Well you're wrong.

 

“The palace is… changed.” For a moment, there was confusion in the bond. Birgitte grimaced. “It sounds mad, I know, but it’s as if the whole thing had been built to a slightly different plan.” One of the Guardswomen ahead missed a step, caught herself. “I have a good memory…” Birgitte hesitated, the bond filled with a jumble of emotions hastily pushed down. Most of her memories of past lives had vanished as surely as the winter’s snow. Nothing remained before the founding of the White Tower, and the four lives she had lived between then and the end of the Trolloc Wars were beginning to fragment. Little seemed to frighten her, yet she feared losing the rest, especially her memories of Gaidal Cain.

 

300 years at most between lives for Birgitte.

[rand4747]

wow she lives alot of lives, i never noticed that before. 4 within 1000 years. Infact there is 5 over that period since the breaking couse she had 1 when the WT was founded then 4 others, the last of which was ended after the trolloc wars ended. But it may not be consistent, she might not have lived many after the trolloc wars though.

[RandA lThor]

Yeah, that would be cool to be immortal like that and be awesome all of those times.

[Pinzarn]

100 to 200 years? Really, I don't think it is that short of a time. Hawking was over a thousand years. Most of the legends are way older than that. If there was only lets say seventy years between the death of Brigitte and her rebirth it wouldn't be all that much of a legend. I think the time between rebirths are a little bit longer. They might have been shorter for this instance but on the average it has to be way longer than 100-200 years.

 

But she isn't a legend in each one of the lives. So being spun out quickly after death doesn't matter. The only thing that matter for Brigitte is that she and Gaidal will always meet (when spun out, and not ripped).

[Terez]

I think Galad is way too pretty for Birgitte.

[XoMeltdownoX]

I think Galad is way too pretty for Birgitte.

 

LOL. Nice.

[TristanWebb]

Each of the heroes probably have different timelines for being spun out. The Dragon is (probably) spun out only once in the third age.

[Terez]

I figure it has something to do with lifespan. Since channelers live ten times as long as normal people, they get spun out ten times less often. And since Birgitte always dies young...

[RandA lThor]

No, I think it just has to do with when the Pattern needs that person, Birgitte is just needed for general war. The dragon is only needed twice per every turning of the wheel, one for the Dragon and one for the Dragon Reborn

[Terez]

No, I think it just has to do with when the Pattern needs that person, Birgitte is just needed for general war. The dragon is only needed twice per every turning of the wheel, one for the Dragon and one for the Dragon Reborn

 

Except that they don't have to be important when they're born, so it doesn't matter how often they are needed. And it would be strange if the frequency didn't reflect lifespan, especially seeing as how someone like Birgitte could easily be born twice or even three times during Rand's normal lifespan.

[RandA lThor]

Birgitte herself may just depend on lifespan, but the Dragon's should definitely not. What if he dies because of his life span right before TG and can't be reborn until after. The Dragon being reborn has to depend on need.

[Pinzarn]

I think Galad is way too pretty for Birgitte.

 

Hey, I had all of the right letters, just the wrong order.

[Valley of Death]

its mentioned in the books, i forget which one, but it says the dragon is the only person the wheel spins out for a specific purpose

 

so the dragon is the only person spun out based on need

[yourcheesehat]

its pretty much reincarnation except between lives they are in tel'aran'rhiod and can remember all of their lives as its the same soul that has lived those lives and that is what waits there to be reborn.

[TristanWebb]

For the mechanics of the wheel, the books are unreliable narrators. Ishy has the best idea on how it works, but he lies all the time. For the second and third age, the dragon is probably spun out once each, but that doesn't mean that in other ages he can't be spun out multiple times for a laugh. In ages where the DO is unknown, there is no need for the Dragon to be the Champion of Light and so he could be spun out just to be the ladies man. Nothing says that the Heroes have to be ta'veren. They can be spun out to live relatively normal lives, their personalities and abilities that made them bound to the Wheel would probably make Hawkwing and the Dragon be leaders in any age and such.

[Valley of Death]

i guess your right because in rands alternate lives in the second book when hes using the portal stone hes just a farmer in like every one

[Terez]

its mentioned in the books, i forget which one, but it says the dragon is the only person the wheel spins out for a specific purpose

 

Graendal said she'd never heard of anything like it before. But that has nothing to do with how it actually works.

 

The Dragon and other souls are certainly spun out when they are needed. They are also spun out when they are not needed. And the Wheel wouldn't be stupid enough to spin him out in such a way that would screw up the time that he was needed.

[kght22]

i still find it questionable when it comes to the number of lives that bigette has lived in this particular iteration of the age. her memories initially cover many turnings of the wheel. if they converge they converge on one age. she frequently speaks of things that should be from the third age but baffle mat, a person we can be pretty sure has real memories from this particular third age. i am just stuck on thinking that birgette might be remembering lives from third ages past, and third ages to come. just as she has a distant memory of being older than gaidal. she herself is not sure of her memories.

[fionwe1987]

300 years at most between lives for Birgitte.

This assumes the Heroes are born regularly, which makes no sense. Birgette wouldn't have to depend on Gaidal's absence to realize she's going to be spun out then. And the PAttern spins out the heroes when they're needed. WT founding to Trolloc Wars were a lot more unsettled a time, so there were probably more rebirths then than later.

[Terez]

i still find it questionable when it comes to the number of lives that bigette has lived in this particular iteration of the age. her memories initially cover many turnings of the wheel. if they converge they converge on one age. she frequently speaks of things that should be from the third age but baffle mat, a person we can be pretty sure has real memories from this particular third age. i am just stuck on thinking that birgette might be remembering lives from third ages past, and third ages to come. just as she has a distant memory of being older than gaidal. she herself is not sure of her memories.

 

It's pretty clear that her strongest memories are the most recent ones. Otherwise the mechanics of her memory loss are illogical. Mat's memories range from about 400 years before the Trolloc Wars to the death of Hawkwing. There's plenty of stuff in the Third Age he wouldn't be familiar with, even during the time he lived.

 

300 years at most between lives for Birgitte.

This assumes the Heroes are born regularly, which makes no sense. Birgette wouldn't have to depend on Gaidal's absence to realize she's going to be spun out then.

 

She didn't.

 

"Perhaps I cannot sit by while evil fights," Birgitte said quietly. "Or perhaps I simply hunger for the flesh again. It has been long since we were born last. The Shadow rises again, Gaidal. It rises here. We must fight it. That is the reason we were bound to the Wheel."

 

And the PAttern spins out the heroes when they're needed.

 

And also when they are not needed.

 

WT founding to Trolloc Wars were a lot more unsettled a time, so there were probably more rebirths then than later.

 

It's possible, but we have no real reason to believe that.

[kght22]

i still find it questionable when it comes to the number of lives that bigette has lived in this particular iteration of the age. her memories initially cover many turnings of the wheel. if they converge they converge on one age. she frequently speaks of things that should be from the third age but baffle mat, a person we can be pretty sure has real memories from this particular third age. i am just stuck on thinking that birgette might be remembering lives from third ages past, and third ages to come. just as she has a distant memory of being older than gaidal. she herself is not sure of her memories.

 

It's pretty clear that her strongest memories are the most recent ones. Otherwise the mechanics of her memory loss are illogical. Mat's memories range from about 400 years before the Trolloc Wars to the death of Hawkwing. There's plenty of stuff in the Third Age he wouldn't be familiar with, even during the time he lived.

 

i dont disagree with that, but i don't think it is that straight foreward. i find it possible that her memory is dissapearing from other spokes on the wheel. but any memories that she has from this spoke, the third, are more likely to stay with her.

 

and yes mat in a way is not a good example, but given his memories he would likely know of any nation that birgette knows about. and he doesn't. and as birgette seems to know nothing about seanchan or shara, everything she says about old times must be about the westlands. but as i said, she confuses mat at times.

[Terez]

Even in the age of the internet, I wouldn't recognize references like Birgitte's to many places in my own country. You can't expect Mat to know everything, and as far as I can recall he usually knows exactly what she's talking about.