Nynaeve, the most arrogant character in WoT?

[csarmi]

So you're being rude to Cadsuane right now. You keep calling her a bully (which she isn't).

You've also been called out (rightly) on being rude to Mr Ares.

Yet you state that rudeness is never justified (a very stupid belief in my opinion).

Hypocrisy too much?

 

Cads is not real. In fact, she's not even an imaginary friend, therefore you cannot be rude to her. If she was an imaginary friend of someone on the boards, then a case could possibly be made that someone could be rude to her, and by extension the person imagining her. As it stands, you cannot be rude to someone to doesn't or never did exist. (Being rude to a memory of a person is possible as well in certian situations).

 

To me, Cads is just as much real as you are (and that's not rude, on this board she IS real). But to turn it back on you. Berelain isn't real either.

 

 

Called out, wrongfully so. Calling someone wrong or confused is not rude. How you call someone wrong or confused could be. Saying, "You're wrong" or "You're delusional" is not rude in itself. Now, those words in a non text based medium could be rude in themselves, but the tone of your voice and other things would come into play. With pure written communication, calling someone wrong is in no way shape or form insulting. Sure, other words could be added to make it insulting, but no were. I was even polite enough to call him sir when I said it. Try again good sir, you are wrong. (*Gasp* hope you're not insulted)

 

You as good as called him mental. I can assure you that's what people would read here.

 

Now here this could be considered rudeness. Stupid is a negative word, however since you applied it to my belief and not my person, I woudn't take offense. Other's wouldn't be so kind, as Mudd said below you.

 

No, not at all.

 

Bingo, it is rudeness. Intentional. But I meant what I said. Your idea is stupid. I don't know you well enough to call you stupid, but even if I did, I'll hold that to myself.

[Suttree]

Sutt I am talking about me when did I say any of these things?

 

You have claimed she was rude for no reason a number of times. A few examples...

 

"I'll repeat myself, she is bullying Aleis for no reason"

 

" but she is rude, insulting and overbearing without any reason most of the time"

 

Those good enough for you or should I pull more?

 

 

[muddasssir]

you disabused me pretty thorough ly of the notion of getting something intelligible and I am shivering thinking of opposing you and as for rejoicing well we are about to reach the end of a series that has been with me for 18 years and I am guessing it would be about same for you. If you do not find it reason to rejoice sighs what can I say

[Vardar]

So you're being rude to Cadsuane right now. You keep calling her a bully (which she isn't).

You've also been called out (rightly) on being rude to Mr Ares.

Yet you state that rudeness is never justified (a very stupid belief in my opinion).

Hypocrisy too much?

 

Cads is not real. In fact, she's not even an imaginary friend, therefore you cannot be rude to her. If she was an imaginary friend of someone on the boards, then a case could possibly be made that someone could be rude to her, and by extension the person imagining her. As it stands, you cannot be rude to someone to doesn't or never did exist. (Being rude to a memory of a person is possible as well in certian situations).

 

To me, Cads is just as much real as you are. But to turn it back on you. Berelain isn't real either.

Called out, wrongfully so. Calling someone wrong or confused is not rude. How you call someone wrong or confused could be. Saying, "You're wrong" or "You're delusional" is not rude in itself. Now, those words in a non text based medium could be rude in themselves, but the tone of your voice and other things would come into play. With pure written communication, calling someone wrong is in no way shape or form insulting. Sure, other words could be added to make it insulting, but no were. I was even polite enough to call him sir when I said it. Try again good sir, you are wrong. (*Gasp* hope you're not insulted)

 

You called him mental. I can assure you that's what people would read here.

 

Now here this could be considered rudeness. Stupid is a negative word, however since you applied it to my belief and not my person, I woudn't take offense. Other's wouldn't be so kind, as Mudd said below you.

 

No, not at all.

 

Bingo, it is rudeness. Intentional.

 

Now you're making no sense at all. We're discussing the behavior or characters who aren't real, in dealing with each other...

 

Know what, I'm not going to further dignify that with a response since it's obvious that you're trolling.

 

As to the second part, I said no such thing. Reread my statement again and don't misquote me. I've called no one "mental."

[Suttree]

The vast majority of the "textual evidence" was provided by myself. So not sure how there has been more than enough to show it isn't the case when you provided less than I did proving my case.

 

Far from me to call anyone delusional but think you may need to reread the thread. People have been chiming in to laud our "cartels" patience in explaining the obvious and most of your points have been consistently rebuffed time and again. Also rather telling that you have mostly avoided commenting on the last two pieces of evidence given with Kumira and Aleis.

[muddasssir]

I never said for no reason. I always said she could have taken an alternative which is not same as no reason. I was talking about making choices She did not need invitation to be in that chamber when the first interaction took place between her and Aleis. She received the invitation after the incident and she was already there. I am again maintaining that She could have done just as well from an inn as someone did try to stop her from entering council chambers. Another rhing that I could not fin was that barsala estate or whatever it is called is in anyway adjacent to guardian. My understanding from reading that scene has always been that it was the residence of the foirst council and it was located at some height.

[Vardar]

The vast majority of the "textual evidence" was provided by myself. So not sure how there has been more than enough to show it isn't the case when you provided less than I did proving my case.

 

Far from me to call anyone delusional but think you may need to reread the thread. People have been chiming in to laud our "cartels" patience in explainig the obvious and most of your points have been consistently rebuffed time and again. Also rather telling that you have mostly avoided commenting on the last two pieces of evidence given with Kumira and Aleis.

 

You said "textual" and I do believe the majority of quotes and such were provided by myself.

 

Not mostly avoided. Eventually there's no longer a reason to rehash and provide evidence against something when my textual evidence is ignored. Saying, "Oh yea well what about _____" when I've already explained it is silly. How many times can I go back and forth with it.

[Suttree]

I never said for no reason. I always said she could have taken an alternative which is not same as no reason. I was talking about making choices She did not need invitation to be in that chamber when the first interaction took place between her and Aleis. She received the invitation after the incident and she was already there. I am again maintaining that She could have done just as well from an inn as someone did try to stop her from entering council chambers. Another rhing that I could not fin was that barsala estate or whatever it is called is in anyway adjacent to guardian. My understanding from reading that scene has always been that it was the residence of the foirst council and it was located at some height.

 

Dude there are direct quotes I provided of you saying she was rude for no reason and you are trying to deny it?

 

Also for the last time reread the damn section. The incident with Verin happend AFTER the invitation. A number of people have broken down the scene for you and it is laughable to state it would have worked from an inn without all the different people being present to play out their part. There has not been one single person who agrees with your version of events because it isnt based in reality. Please, one last time I beg you stop being ridiculous and go reread the scene. My patience on this topic has reache the end of its rope .

[shortkut]

Yar sutt you have not responded to my post and somebody i think hit it spot on that we are differing on semantics.

exactly. One side says she did something rude/acted arrogant so she is rude/arrogant. The other side says she did it with a reason/purpose/to someone who deserved it so it doesn't count.

 

No necessarily. If you go back to the start the other side claimed she is a "selfish", "uncouth" bully, that she is rude for no reason and more recently that she thoughtlessly ruins lives. There has been more than enough textual evidence provided to show that isn't the case. She has been show to use the tactic which best fits any given situation. That in no way fits with the characterization given by some in this debate.

now you're splitting hairs. Are you so anal retentive/obsessive compulsive that i had to spell out exactly what was going on instead of simplifying it? I humbly beg for your forgiveness for using blanket terms instead of getting down to the nitty gritty specifics. If you're not that anal retentive, then you're the type of person who wins arguments by simply shutting up last, in which case i rescind my apology and i'll keep it in mind if i ever decide to enter into a discussion/debate with you

[Vardar]

I never said for no reason. I always said she could have taken an alternative which is not same as no reason. I was talking about making choices She did not need invitation to be in that chamber when the first interaction took place between her and Aleis. She received the invitation after the incident and she was already there. I am again maintaining that She could have done just as well from an inn as someone did try to stop her from entering council chambers. Another rhing that I could not fin was that barsala estate or whatever it is called is in anyway adjacent to guardian. My understanding from reading that scene has always been that it was the residence of the foirst council and it was located at some height.

 

Dude there are direct quotes I provided of you saying she was rude for no reason and you are trying to deny it?

 

Also for the last time reread the damn section. The incident with Verin happend AFTER the invitation. A number of people have broken down the scene for you and it is laughable to state it would have worked from an inn without all the different people being present to play out their part. There has not been one single person who agrees with your version of events because it isnt based in reality. Please, one last time I beg you stop being ridiculous and go reread the scene. My patience on this topic has reache the end of its rope .

 

What's the argument here? The Incident with Cads and the initial "snub" as you termed it occured in Chapter 24 of winter's heart. Her breaking of the council woman occured. in Chapter 34. Are you suggesting that Cads knew the future? That she knew Rand would get arrested and she would have to break him out of jail?

 

That's what it seems you're implying but I'll go back and pull your quote.

[Vardar]

Come on sutt, are you seriously making this argument?

You'd better believe it............

1+ to you my man, but I still have hope for Sutt

 

Actually it's the point our side has been making all along. Cadsuane is not inherently rude. You presented a situation in which Cads had a premeditated plan and her inclusion of an invite through the sea folk was part of that. In your first post you claimed she was rude here for no reason and that is unequivocally not the case. This was all part of the plan that culminated in her being in a position to save Rand. This whole section was made to show us how meticulous she is.

 

To say she was doing this only to show she can is somewhat shocking. Did the whole plan in this section of WH go completely over both of your heads? Then again considering the person giving you support in this thread is named after a character from bluntly written, glorified marketing materials made to sell more 50 sided dice it's not surprising that it would.

 

There it is. So yes you are claiming that Cads knew everything that would occur.. Interesting.

[muddasssir]

i am confused are you talking about me or sutt? if you are telling me I will have to humbly beg your pardon and ask what possibly made you think that i am anal retentive and whatever else you said about me?

[Vardar]

My initial quote:

 

I haven't misread her character, I understand what she's about, but it all comes down to she's an uncouth tactless bully who is far too used to being obeyed and the single most powerful force walking around. Her ego is so huge a linked circle of 13 couldn't lift it!

 

This after you telling me I'm wrong.

 

 

 

 

.

 

As for her character funny how in your protest that you haven't misread it, you display how badly you have. Sure she is used to being the top dog, but then again she often is. Getting the mission accomplished is what is important to her, end of story. She almost unfailingly treats people based on their actions. Not to mention her tactics are extremely varied. Far from just bullying when diplomacy works best a la Sorilea that is what she does. She was taught early on in the Black Hills by Norla the wilder that there is no one size solution. Maybe brush up on RJ's notes for the character linked above. Again her track record speaks for itself and no one would describe an uncouth bully as a "remarkably adaptable woman".

 

You provided 1 example for "extremely varied" tactics. And again, I've porvided quotes upon quotes (Which have been ignored) showing that the 2 times she doesn't use bullying or rudness, is because she doesn't need too or she thinks it won't work. Which doesn't prove she's not a bully.

 

Now what I've been waiting for is how that proves she isn't a bully, although now you're harping on about how she believes people deserve to be treated, to which I've said time and time again, that "logic" can be used (and has been used) to explain any atrocity ever committed in history. Hell, the forsaken use it. It's the basic idea behind Might is right. Now I've said this time and time again, but it was ignored with responses of "She's adaptable and smart etc." I never doubted the woman's intelligence, I admitted she's obviously smart because it takes a lot of work and planning to be an ass on her level. However 2 incidents do not make a personality, especially when compared to dozens of others.

 

I ask this again: What is your point? Do you believe that becaus she believes someone should be treated a certain way that it justifies it?

 

If the answer is yes, then we have nothing to debate sir, because you have not refuted my point at all. The quote you provided with Cads and the councilwoman, and claim that she was rude first (Which is HILARIOUS because apparently it's not ok for someone to do it to her, but she can do it to others) that can be easily disregarded because we are told they have a history. So yes, she is rude first in this case, but given the history of Cads, it's obvious she's pissed her off before off screen.

[Vardar]

i am confused are you talking about me or sutt? if you are telling me I will have to humbly beg your pardon and ask what possibly made you think that i am anal retentive and whatever else you said about me?

 

He's talking about Sutt. And his assessment is completely correct.

[Suttree]

I never said for no reason. I always said she could have taken an alternative which is not same as no reason. I was talking about making choices She did not need invitation to be in that chamber when the first interaction took place between her and Aleis. She received the invitation after the incident and she was already there. I am again maintaining that She could have done just as well from an inn as someone did try to stop her from entering council chambers. Another rhing that I could not fin was that barsala estate or whatever it is called is in anyway adjacent to guardian. My understanding from reading that scene has always been that it was the residence of the foirst council and it was located at some height.

 

Dude there are direct quotes I provided of you saying she was rude for no reason and you are trying to deny it?

 

Also for the last time reread the damn section. The incident with Verin happend AFTER the invitation. A number of people have broken down the scene for you and it is laughable to state it would have worked from an inn without all the different people being present to play out their part. There has not been one single person who agrees with your version of events because it isnt based in reality. Please, one last time I beg you stop being ridiculous and go reread the scene. My patience on this topic has reache the end of its rope .

 

What's the argument here? The Incident with Cads and the initial "snub" as you termed it occured in Chapter 24 of winter's heart. Her breaking of the council woman occured. in Chapter 34. Are you suggesting that Cads knew the future? That she knew Rand would get arrested and she would have to break him out of jail?

 

That's what it seems you're implying but I'll go back and pull your quote.

 

Vardarmus, I really can't believe you are making me rehash this as it has been spelled out by myself, Fanolan and others in this thread. She planned ahead for any eventuality given Rand would be within the radius of the guardian. Her and Aleis had history dating back to the Aiel war, for this reason she knew the reception she would get and secured the invite ahead of time through the Atha'an Miere. This was done to make sure she would have unfettered access moving forward. Once inside she calls out Aleis in front of the other council members to put them on their heals and create doubt. Directly after Verin calls out that a man just channeled(their own Ashaman) and then the story of Guare Amalsan is told to highlight the threat male channeles can present. All of this part of the plan was done in chapter 24. They needed to be present for it to work both to have access to the guardian and a live audience with the council. Now Cads did not know exactly how the rest would play out but in laying the groundwork she set them up to be able to deal with Rand falling into trouble while in the city an it turns out she was perfectly correct in taking this action. We then at the end see her regret and vow to do what is best for Rand.

 

As for the rest I refuse to be engaged anymore. Lucker, Mr Ares and myself have consistently shown why your points are wrong. In addition we have given numerous examples Kumira, Sorilea, Verin, etc of Cads using various tactics. Various other posters have chimed in supporting our side and patience in dealing with the situation while you continue to be on an island with your point of view. People can read the thread and see the right of it. Lastly you have now called one person delusional and another anal retentive. Spin it however you want but you don't practice what you preach and have been called out on it by more than one person.

[Vardar]

I never said for no reason. I always said she could have taken an alternative which is not same as no reason. I was talking about making choices She did not need invitation to be in that chamber when the first interaction took place between her and Aleis. She received the invitation after the incident and she was already there. I am again maintaining that She could have done just as well from an inn as someone did try to stop her from entering council chambers. Another rhing that I could not fin was that barsala estate or whatever it is called is in anyway adjacent to guardian. My understanding from reading that scene has always been that it was the residence of the foirst council and it was located at some height.

 

Dude there are direct quotes I provided of you saying she was rude for no reason and you are trying to deny it?

 

Also for the last time reread the damn section. The incident with Verin happend AFTER the invitation. A number of people have broken down the scene for you and it is laughable to state it would have worked from an inn without all the different people being present to play out their part. There has not been one single person who agrees with your version of events because it isnt based in reality. Please, one last time I beg you stop being ridiculous and go reread the scene. My patience on this topic has reache the end of its rope .

 

What's the argument here? The Incident with Cads and the initial "snub" as you termed it occured in Chapter 24 of winter's heart. Her breaking of the council woman occured. in Chapter 34. Are you suggesting that Cads knew the future? That she knew Rand would get arrested and she would have to break him out of jail?

 

That's what it seems you're implying but I'll go back and pull your quote.

 

Vardarmus, I really can't believe you are making me rehash this as it has been spelled out by myself, Fanolan and others in this thread. She planned ahead for any eventuality given Rand would be within the radius of the guardian. Her and Aleis had history dating back to the Aiel war, for this reason she knew the reception she would get and secured the invite ahead of time through the Atha'an Miere. This was done to make sure she would have unfettered access moving forward. Once inside she calls out Aleis in front of the other council members to put them on their heals and create doubt. Directly after Verin calls out that a man just channeled(their own Ashaman) and then the story of Guare Amalsan is told to highlight the threat male channeles can present. All of this part of the plan was done in chapter 24. They needed to be present for it to work both to have access to the guardian and a live audience with the council. Now Cads did not know exactly how the rest would play out but in laying the groundwork she set them up to be able to deal with Rand falling into trouble while in the city an it turns out she was perfectly correct in taking this action. We then at the end see her regret and vow to do what is best for Rand.

 

As for the rest I refuse to be engaged anymore. Lucker, Mr Ares and myself have consistently shown why your points are wrong. In addition we have given numerous examples Kumira, Sorilea, Verin, etc of Cads using various tactics. Various other posters have chimed in supporting our side and patience in dealing with the situation while you continue to be on an island with your point of view. People can read the thread and see the right of it. Lastly you have now called one person delusional and another anal retentive. Spin it however you want but you don't practice what you preach and have been called out on it by more than one person.

 

Harp all you like about calling someone delusional being an insult, It won't make it so.

 

Another poster called you Anal Retentive. Not I sir, not I. The text is above.

 

Since you're obviously confused, the part I was agreeing with: 'then you're the type of person who wins arguments by simply shutting up last, in which case i rescind my apology and i'll keep it in mind if i ever decide to enter into a discussion/debate with you"

 

I don't insult, I'm not rude. Believe what you wish however, I cannot tell you what to do, I will however tell you when you're misquoting me.

[shortkut]

Double post please ignore

[shortkut]

I'm the one who mentioned anal retentiveness. It was not an attack on your arguments but an attempt to understand not only why the arguments were continuing but why i was being dragged into it for not being specific enough in my abridged version of what people said

[Suttree]

Harp all you like about calling someone delusional being an insult, It won't make it so.

 

Actually the inverse would seem to be much closer to the truth. You have had a number of posters who saw it as such an yet you solely keep claiming it isn't, to say nothing of the other jabs that Mr Ares pointed out.

 

I will give you this. I admire your tenacity and how you stick to your guns. Sure there will be many good debates down the line.

[muddasssir]

yar sutt it seems that fair number of posters were on the both side of divide and others just fell away when they realized that both parties are not ready to listen to reason. as for Shortkut I am still stumped. I was agreeing with your assertion. How does that makes me anal retentive. you know what we should start a thread on anal retentiveness.

[shortkut]

I never called you anal retentive, nor did i technically call Sutt that either. I enquired if Sutt was anal retentive because he seems to constantly try to split hairs over everything. Either he is that anal retentive and pedantic or he is obsessive compulsive or he knows if he acts that way people will give up their side of the argument and he will win. I do not know which one it is but it would be useful information to have for the future

[Suttree]

I never called you anal retentive, nor did i technically call Sutt that either. I enquired if Sutt was anal retentive because he seems to constantly try to split hairs over everything. Either he is that anal retentive and pedantic or he is obsessive compulsive or he knows if he acts that way people will give up their side of the argument and he will win. I do not know which one it is but it would be useful information to have for the future

 

As if I would tip my hand ;p

[shortkut]

then i'll have to assume the worst

[Suttree]

then i'll have to assume the worst

 

It was a joke mate. Was just trying to add some additional clarity and I understand the point your were initially making. Make of it what you will but it was intended as a throw away comment.

[shortkut]

As was mine. I'm doing all my posting from a 1.5 inch screened cell phone with the internet that was out for phones before there was an iphone using the keypad for typing. I was too lazy to throw in a :-P