Egwene Appreciation Thread

[fionwe1987]

...I'll refer the author to the many, many threads where this has been discussed to death, and refuted. Yes, refuted.

Wow... another thread said different. Then I must be wrong. After all, Egwene bashing threads are the pinnacle of good sense and unbiased discussion...

 

So, if people are going to dream up imaginary sexism rather than address real issues with the way this character is drawn, I might as well give them something real to chew on.

Except I did address many other points about the character. But you chose to focus on a throwaway line, and addressed none of the other points I made. How very typical of an Egwene-basher.

[randsc]

Please note that I didn't write a single negative word about your heroine. This was supposed to be an appreciation thread, but was taken off track by those who mysteriously feel that the best way to show appreciation for their favorite character is to cast aspersions on those readers who do not care for her.

 

If it's "a throwaway line" why include it? It is, umm, well let's be nice and say, "ill-informed."

 

But I love how your immediate response is to get all butt-hurt. How very typical of an Egwene fan-boi/gurl.

[Elvira_Sedai]

I'm not even going to comment on Egwene. I can't; I'm laughing too hard at the notion that the Four Elements, a theme literally millenia old, "come from" the symbolism of a faith invented out of whole cloth less than a century ago. And I say that as someone generally quite sympathetic to all of the various Earth-centered and reconstructionist faiths. Hell, my daughter is a Spiral Scout.

 

I'm confused . When did I said that Four Elements theme came from Five Elements one ?? I only said about WoT connection to the last one .

[fionwe1987]

Please note that I didn't write a single negative word about your heroine. This was supposed to be an appreciation thread, but was taken off track by those who mysteriously feel that the best way to show appreciation for their favorite character is to cast aspersions on those readers who do not care for her.

So analyzing why Egwene is disliked, and explaining it partly by the expectation of male and female characters in fiction is to "cast aspersions" on Egwene haters? Boy are you guys touchy. And you complain about me whining?

 

If it's "a throwaway line" why include it?

Because I want to make clear that the other points I raised aren't sufficient to explain the vitriol you see spewed against Egwene. There's entirely too much of "I hope the b!tch is smacked down and shown her place"/ "I hope Rand whups her as$" in Egwene conversations to be sufficiently explained by the trope inversions I mentioned. That isn't the kind of language anyone would use if this were a man opposing a woman.

 

It is, umm, well let's be nice and say, "ill-informed."

What I said wasn't a fact, it was an opinion. If you have a different opinion, and points to refute what I said, present those. If not, then go away, since you seem incapable of making any meaningful contribution to the thread.

 

But I love how your immediate response is to get all butt-hurt. How very typical of an Egwene fan-boi/gurl.

Yeah, no. That's all you.

[randsc]

awwwww.

 

There's entirely too much of "I hope the b!tch is smacked down and shown her place"/ "I hope Rand whups her as$" in Egwene conversations to be sufficiently explained by the trope inversions I mentioned. That isn't the kind of language anyone would use if this were a man opposing a woman.

 

 

Absolute BS. Pure garbage. People wished constantly for Rand to be "taught to cry." The only reason it wasn't more vehement was because no one really defended Dark Rand's actions. You want to know why Egwene gets more criticism from readers than other characters? It is because she is uncriticised in-world. And because her worst actions are defended by a certain sub-set of readers.

 

But just to bring this post back on-topic, here you go. A praise of Egwene, in every way typical of the intellectual rigor and sophistication typically displayed in such:

 

Egwene, she's just super awesome!!!

 

Happy?

[fionwe1987]

awwwww. Poor lttle fellow.

 

Here, let's try this:

 

Egwene, she just super awesome!!!

 

Happy?

All right... I'm calling you out. If you're not just all words and posture, go ahead and actually refute the points I made.

[randsc]

SUre. Not this second, because I don't have time.

 

Besides, "nobles vs. pheasants" stories usually don't end well for the pheasants.

 

In general, I would refer you to the many discussions of Egwene's Mary-Sue-ness. She may not have Pattern bending abilities, but that is more than made up for the fact that her every action is armored by her creator. She is univerally lauded in the books, unlike every other character. She is always just wonderful, will bring a great Amyrlin, destined for greatness, etc. All without any realistic explanation of why and how.

 

What many who hope for a "beat-down" are actually hoping for is that Egwene is just being set up for some meaningful character growth. And the reason we hope for that is that if it doesn't happen, then she is Mary-Sue, and therefore by definition poorly written. And that would be a shame.

[RandA lThor]

One page without a Egwene debate, longer than I expected. I am actually interested in who will win this debate. My input, Egwene has gone through so much and she cannot be blamed for some of her little mistakes. All the stuff she has done makes up for that and more.

[fionwe1987]

SUre. Not this second, because I don't have time.

 

Besides, "nobles vs. pheasants" stories usually don't end well for the pheasants.

In the real world? Sure. In fantasy literature? Not so much.

[randsc]

SUre. Not this second, because I don't have time.

 

Besides, "nobles vs. pheasants" stories usually don't end well for the pheasants.

In the real world? Sure. In fantasy literature? Not so much.

 

You're suggesting that in fantasy literature, the pheasants often win?

 

Wow.

[fionwe1987]

SUre. Not this second, because I don't have time.

 

Besides, "nobles vs. pheasants" stories usually don't end well for the pheasants.

In the real world? Sure. In fantasy literature? Not so much.

 

You're suggesting that in fantasy literature, the pheasants often win?

 

Wow.

Not pheasants per say. I used "nobles" and "pheasants" to signify the privileged and the underclass. In that sense, yes, the pheasants do win. I'm not saying that the underclass as a whole gets uplifted, and there's a social revilotion. I'm saying the hero, who's usually the farmer from the unknown village, attains his goals and leads the world. Though there's often the disturbing trend of the farmer secretly being the Prince, too. Thankfully, I think there's zero chance of Rand secretly being a woman...

[baalsmistress]

Maybe peasants sometimes win. but in the case of Nobles vs pheasants, the pheasants end up as dinner

[RandA lThor]

SUre. Not this second, because I don't have time.

 

Besides, "nobles vs. pheasants" stories usually don't end well for the pheasants.

In the real world? Sure. In fantasy literature? Not so much.

 

You're suggesting that in fantasy literature, the pheasants often win?

 

Wow.

Not pheasants per say. I used "nobles" and "pheasants" to signify the privileged and the underclass. In that sense, yes, the pheasants do win. I'm not saying that the underclass as a whole gets uplifted, and there's a social revilotion. I'm saying the hero, who's usually the farmer from the unknown village, attains his goals and leads the world. Though there's often the disturbing trend of the farmer secretly being the Prince, too. Thankfully, I think there's zero chance of Rand secretly being a woman...

 

Aren't pheasants birds?

[baalsmistress]

 

Aren't pheasants birds?

 

I believe that was the other rand's point :)

[Mr Ares]

Attempts to rationalise away the dislike people have for Egwene are so often very deeply flawed. People dislike her for a variety of reasons, some good others not so good. As a rule, they don't hate her because she's a woman, because she's ambitious, because she's opposed to Rand even. People can like or dislike both or neither - sympathy with one does not preclude or impact upon sympathy for the other. Some people have put forward well reasoned arguments of all the problems with Egwene's character - to dismiss these out of hand by claiming they only dislike her because she's ambitious or opposed to Rand is inaccurate and rude. People dislike Egwene for the flaws in her character. She has good points and bad. If people see her negatives as outweighing her positives, they will tend to like her rather less than if they see her positives outweighing her negatives. The same is true of any other character in the series, male or female.

 

An interesting though with regards to Egwene hate - while it is certainly nothing new, it has not always been so prominent. Elayne and Faile hate seems not to be as common now as it used to be, while Egwene hate has gotten worse. Maybe it's just an inaccurate perecption on my part. Maybe Egwne hate really has gotten worse while the others have gotten better. If the latter, it might be worth considering why. Has BS improved the characters of the others? Made Egwene worse? A combination of the two? Certainly Sanderson's books contain prominent examples of the problems people have with her. It might be that his mishandling of the character has taken someone bad and made her worse, at least in the eyes of some. So, Egwene haters: in which book was she worst?

 

As for nobles v pheasants, I'm not aware of any great fantasy stories tackling the theme. And when dealt with in passing the pheasants usually don't fare that well. And yes, pheasants are indeed birds.

[RandA lThor]

Aren't pheasants birds?

 

I believe that was the other rand's point :)

Let's go with peasants in instead of pheasants.

[XXX]

Cross posting from the over rated thread but applies well to Egwene to as she is tied with the WT

 

"Without a question the WT. While the WT undisputedly has been the leader in fighting the shadow for 3000 years, they failed to understand that they lost that leadership position when the Dragon appeared. The Dragon is now the leader of the light forces while the job of the WT is to advise not guide and not to lead. An advisor is decidedly a secondary and not an equal position to the DR. We see this WT supremacy complex in varying degrees from Siuan,Elaida and Egwene. I was just reading the "Winters Heart" and there is a scene with Elayne where she is thinking that things would be much easier if Rand kneeled before Egwene. WTF when did the Amyrlin even become an equal position to the DR forget been superior? "

[baalsmistress]

An interesting though with regards to Egwene hate - while it is certainly nothing new, it has not always been so prominent. Elayne and Faile hate seems not to be as common now as it used to be, while Egwene hate has gotten worse. Maybe it's just an inaccurate perecption on my part. Maybe Egwne hate really has gotten worse while the others have gotten better.

 

Maybe there's only so much hate to go around, and if Egwene is picking up more of it, then Faille naturally collects less.

 

Can't say I've ever really understood it. The only characters I've ever really hated in the series have been the ones we're supposed to hate, and that from a story point of view.

[RandA lThor]

An interesting though with regards to Egwene hate - while it is certainly nothing new, it has not always been so prominent. Elayne and Faile hate seems not to be as common now as it used to be, while Egwene hate has gotten worse. Maybe it's just an inaccurate perecption on my part. Maybe Egwne hate really has gotten worse while the others have gotten better.

 

Maybe there's only so much hate to go around, and if Egwene is picking up more of it, then Faille naturally collects less.

 

Can't say I've ever really understood it. The only characters I've ever really hated in the series have been the ones we're supposed to hate, and that from a story point of view.

The funny thing is that those two, especially Faile are the ones that deserve it more. Faile is actually the only character in the entire series that I hate.

[Mr Ares]

An interesting though with regards to Egwene hate - while it is certainly nothing new, it has not always been so prominent. Elayne and Faile hate seems not to be as common now as it used to be, while Egwene hate has gotten worse. Maybe it's just an inaccurate perecption on my part. Maybe Egwne hate really has gotten worse while the others have gotten better.

Maybe there's only so much hate to go around, and if Egwene is picking up more of it, then Faille naturally collects less.

If that was the case, I'm interested in why. Did the other hated characters improve? Did Egwene get worse? Or both, perhaps. For Faile, I'm a fan, but I'd say her character has improved recently, for example by her putting aside her jealousy of Berelain, and doing things the TR way for a change, rather than expecting Perrin to do things the Saldaean way despite her never telling him what the Saldaean way is.

[Elvira_Sedai]

Cross posting from the over rated thread but applies well to Egwene to as she is tied with the WT

 

"Without a question the WT. While the WT undisputedly has been the leader in fighting the shadow for 3000 years, they failed to understand that they lost that leadership position when the Dragon appeared. The Dragon is now the leader of the light forces while the job of the WT is to advise not guide and not to lead. An advisor is decidedly a secondary and not an equal position to the DR. We see this WT supremacy complex in varying degrees from Siuan,Elaida and Egwene. I was just reading the "Winters Heart" and there is a scene with Elayne where she is thinking that things would be much easier if Rand kneeled before Egwene. WTF when did the Amyrlin even become an equal position to the DR forget been superior? "

 

My guess that the trouble comes from the post like that . The whole theme of the series , IMHO , is who should lead and who should follow is just a wrong question . The right one would be who can do better this or that and who has more time and resourses for it . Fighting the Shadow is much wider territory than just bailing out the DO from the Pattern . It has many sides and each of the main characters has advantage in one of this . Egwene is the best for being the political leader , for example and Mat as a field marshal of military troops , Rand for dealing with the Bore itself etc.

[Barid Bel Medar]

An interesting though with regards to Egwene hate - while it is certainly nothing new, it has not always been so prominent. Elayne and Faile hate seems not to be as common now as it used to be, while Egwene hate has gotten worse. Maybe it's just an inaccurate perecption on my part. Maybe Egwne hate really has gotten worse while the others have gotten better.

 

Maybe there's only so much hate to go around, and if Egwene is picking up more of it, then Faille naturally collects less.

 

 

It has been suggested that Brandon's Egwene, in particular in Towers of Midnight, has been off character, much like Mat in tGS is said to be. Particularly his poor handling of the TAR scene with Perrin and Egwene. This is what has been said, not necessarily my views.

[XXX]

An interesting though with regards to Egwene hate - while it is certainly nothing new, it has not always been so prominent. Elayne and Faile hate seems not to be as common now as it used to be, while Egwene hate has gotten worse. Maybe it's just an inaccurate perecption on my part. Maybe Egwne hate really has gotten worse while the others have gotten better.

Maybe there's only so much hate to go around, and if Egwene is picking up more of it, then Faille naturally collects less.

If that was the case, I'm interested in why. Did the other hated characters improve? Did Egwene get worse? Or both, perhaps. For Faile, I'm a fan, but I'd say her character has improved recently, for example by her putting aside her jealousy of Berelain, and doing things the TR way for a change, rather than expecting Perrin to do things the Saldaean way despite her never telling him what the Saldaean way is.

 

Faile and Elayne are just annoying characters. For me I started really disliking Egwene only after the last 2 books when she completely bought into the AS/WT bullsh1t. The AS are not well liked and anyone holding them to a great standard will not be liked either, atleast for me.

[Elvira_Sedai]

An interesting though with regards to Egwene hate - while it is certainly nothing new, it has not always been so prominent. Elayne and Faile hate seems not to be as common now as it used to be, while Egwene hate has gotten worse. Maybe it's just an inaccurate perecption on my part. Maybe Egwne hate really has gotten worse while the others have gotten better.

 

Maybe there's only so much hate to go around, and if Egwene is picking up more of it, then Faille naturally collects less.

 

 

It has been suggested that Brandon's Egwene, in particular in Towers of Midnight, has been off character, much like Mat in tGS is said to be. Particularly his poor handling of the TAR scene with Perrin and Egwene. This is what has been said, not necessarily my views.

 

Yeah , I also find this scene being written with a bit of Perrin favouritism . We , WoT fans , all know that Perrin is BS's most related character and he did not keep himself from making him looking better than other characters supposed to interact with him . Like Elayne when he came to negotiate with her or Galad in their Parlez-vous , Egwene in their TAR meeting is just one of those examples .

[randsc]

An interesting though with regards to Egwene hate - while it is certainly nothing new, it has not always been so prominent. Elayne and Faile hate seems not to be as common now as it used to be, while Egwene hate has gotten worse. Maybe it's just an inaccurate perecption on my part. Maybe Egwne hate really has gotten worse while the others have gotten better. If the latter, it might be worth considering why. Has BS improved the characters of the others? Made Egwene worse? A combination of the two? Certainly Sanderson's books contain prominent examples of the problems people have with her. It might be that his mishandling of the character has taken someone bad and made her worse, at least in the eyes of some. So, Egwene haters: in which book was she worst?

 

 

This is a good point. Perceptions of Egwene have gotten worse, I agree.

 

I don't think that perceptions of her changed with Sanderson, either by improving other characters or worsening Egwene. If anything, Egwene has now been given what are sometimes called, "moments of awesome" in the past couple of books that help counterbalance some of the negativity.

 

My personal perception is that Faile-hate was always overblown, and isn't even Faile hate. It's "messed with the story-line of the popular character" hate. Jordan went off the rails a bit with the Perrin-Faile story line. Elayne-hate is about class, entitlement and more than a little, "Christ, won't this circus crap ever end?"

 

What has happened with Egwene is that her Mary-Sue-like attributes have been reinforced by repetition. Every scene that ends with yet another Wise Woman/Windfinder/Aes Sedai in awe of Egwene's awesomeness adds to the dislike. So does every instance of her opponents turning into idiots, just in time to be schooled by Egwene.

 

The other issue, I think, is that unlike other characters, Egwene's unrealistic accomplishments grate because they are in mundane areas. I'm not going to say, "Hey, it's unrealistic that Rand got so good at magic so quickly!!!" It's magic, and inherently unrealistic. Whereas I find the idea that centuries-old Aes Sedai would be so outclassed in real-world areas like law and politics unrealistic.