Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Foreshadowing Examples


Recommended Posts

I haven't seen a thread exclusively for foreshadowing, so here one is. Any and all examples of foreshadowing--confirmed and opinions--can be posted here. Have fun!

 

 

 

 

I'm currently on my first re-read of the series, in anticipation of AMoL, and I've come across many examples of what I thought were foreshadowing and had nowhere to put them. My most recent finding is this one, from TDR, chapter 17, The Red Sister. It's Egwene's POV, after Sheriam speaks to them about the Gray Man. "Sheriam's watchful eye would make it doubly hard to carry out a search for the Black Ajah. For a moment she felt like laughing hysterically. If the Black Ajah doesn't catch us, Sheriam will. The urge to laugh vanished. If Sheriam isn't Black Ajah herself. She wished she could make that thought go away."

 

We got a heads up that Sheriam was Black all the way back in the third book. Verin was suspect several times, too, which she turned out to be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 70
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

How about Thom's thoughts about Moiraine when he catches her snooping through his room in Tear? Or on a more esoteric note, Mat's "blindness" while corrupted by the dagger foreshadowing his real loss of sight courtesy of the Finns?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How about Thom's thoughts about Moiraine when he catches her snooping through his room in Tear?

 

That's not foreshadowing. That's character development.

 

Or on a more esoteric note, Mat's "blindness" while corrupted by the dagger foreshadowing his real loss of sight courtesy of the Finns?

 

Just plain ol' coincidence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Or on a more esoteric note, Mat's "blindness" while corrupted by the dagger foreshadowing his real loss of sight courtesy of the Finns?

 

Just plain ol' coincidence.

 

Brandon wondered about that bit, but he paralleled it to the scarf Mat eventually wore around his neck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Or on a more esoteric note, Mat's "blindness" while corrupted by the dagger foreshadowing his real loss of sight courtesy of the Finns?

 

Just plain ol' coincidence.

 

Brandon wondered about that bit, but he paralleled it to the scarf Mat eventually wore around his neck.

 

I don't see how that's coincidence or foreshadowing. He was in the desert. If he didn't cover his head, he'd probably die of heatstroke. Scarf is the reasonable thing. And wearing a scarf isn't something that gets foreshadowed. You foreshadow events not character outfits. If the scarf around his head was trying to foreshadow his hanging, it was as poor a job as you can get.

 

But hey, anyone is welcome to see whatever they want.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They were talking about the couple of days Mat spent partly blind after staring at a lightning Rand summoned on the way to Caemlyn, in TEotW. He wore a scarf over his eyes, then, which is what Brandon was referring to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They were talking about the couple of days Mat spent partly blind after staring at a lightning Rand summoned on the way to Caemlyn, in TEotW. He wore a scarf over his eyes, then, which is what Brandon was referring to.

 

Thanks for the clarification. Still not foreshadowing or coincidence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They were talking about the couple of days Mat spent partly blind after staring at a lightning Rand summoned on the way to Caemlyn, in TEotW. He wore a scarf over his eyes, then, which is what Brandon was referring to.

 

Thanks for the clarification. Still not foreshadowing or coincidence.

 

I would say that this could be viewed as a form of foreshadowing - though a little obtuse. Foreshadowing often works on a symbolic level. Personally I think it merely coincidental in this instance!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think a great foreshadowing with Mat was in the Eye of the World... when the two rivers group finally meet Trollocs for the first time after they leave toward Whitebridge, Rand comments after the battle it was hot, and notices the only one of them to be Pulled from their horse was Mat. Then Rand sees Mat pulling a noose from himself rubbing his neck and shaking his head as if to ward off a bad thought.

 

It may completely be nothing, but it is odd considering what we know now.

 

(love rereading the series and picking up more and more each time)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I remember when I first started reading these books I thought they were "needlessly wordy" and there were jokes on the 'net about RJ describing everythign in painstaking detail; but last few years I've been reading the opposite that his prose is "very tight"; in fact the opposite of wordy. Considering this in a foreshadowing sense it does make me wonder how much description and "needless" conversation/description is foreshadowing.

 

I've been reading these books through a lot slower than what I normally trying to find meanings and foreshadowing within the book itself and I like many others of recent years have seen a *lot* of foreshadow in fact a lot of the "simple description" ; most telling in my mind is the obvious "gaps" in description and thought. Consider the characters thinking of Padan Fain; every time he is remembered (he is often forgotten or added as an afterthought) their thoughts seem to skirt around the issue as if reluctant to admit him.... it is as if he does not exist in the pattern at all. Considering what RJ said about he is unique to this cycle makes it all the more telling.

 

"“Trollocs took them. The same as the people at the ferry. That is what happened. The Fade . . . ” Ingtar shrugged and stared down at a flat, canvas-wrapped bundle, large and square, in his arms; he stared at it as if he saw hidden secrets he would rather not know."

 

And then there is the house with the flys... pretty much as soon as he goes to sleep it is not mentioned ever again in the entire series; that house scene jars against everything we know about the power at that time.... and indeed after. Everyone references the bubbles of evil chapters even books later. Rand thinks about the wind (the first bubble of evil) a lot during the second book; but something which is bigger - much deadiler is forgotten.

 

its not precisely forshadowing as Mat's Hanging but the complete absense of it seems telling.

Edited by boli
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interview: Oct 27th, 2005

KOD Signing Report - Chris (Paraphrased)

Question

Another interesting question was about the scene with all the flies in the house in book two.

Robert Jordan

This scene where Rand sees the same thing over and over again was actually Fain's doing, a trap devised by him to put Rand in a time loop forever.

Footnote

The scene is in The Great Hunt, Chapter 10. RJ's assertion that it was Fain who set the trap was corroborated by Caychris, who also attended this signing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I remember when I first started reading these books I thought they were "needlessly wordy" and there were jokes on the 'net about RJ describing everythign in painstaking detail; but last few years I've been reading the opposite that his prose is "very tight"; in fact the opposite of wordy. Considering this in a foreshadowing sense it does make me wonder how much description and "needless" conversation/description is foreshadowing.

 

Not to derail the topic, but most of the issue with Jordan's prose centers around his needlessly verbose and repetitious description of character actions (smoothing of skirts, sniffing, etc.), places (every time the scenery travels to Tar Valon or the Tower for the first time, we get the same descriptions), concepts (Jordan repeated the same explanation of the concept of the novice "families" about three times within CoT and once in KoD), outfits (every single outfit is described in painstaking detail for even side characters), events (Jordan spent several pages describing a sequence of minor Aes Sedai walking into a pavillion -- their mannerisms, outfits, expressions, personalities, backgrounds, and actions up until they sat down -- in CoT), and environments (he named and described every kind of tree in a forest).

 

His prose was far from "tight." It was definitely verbose. It also featured a large deal of foreshadowing. But that foreshadowing and such is not part of the prose that people complain about.

 

“Trollocs took them. The same as the people at the ferry. That is what happened. The Fade . . . ” Ingtar shrugged and stared down at a flat, canvas-wrapped bundle, large and square, in his arms; he stared at it as if he saw hidden secrets he would rather not know.

 

I would have to have more examples of what you're talking about. That just reads as someone deeply disturbed by what they saw...and for good reason. A Myrddraal staked to a door? What kind of creature has that power? It's disturbing and terrifying. It's also not even talking about Fain. It's talking about what Fain did to a Fade.

 

Most descriptions of Fain that I recall reading are perfectly straightforward. When Perrin's thinking about him after running into him in the Two Rivers, he thinks that it's hard to believe Fain used to be someone the Two Rivers knew and trusted. A peddler that folks flocked to for news and goods.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I remember when I first started reading these books I thought they were "needlessly wordy" and there were jokes on the 'net about RJ describing everythign in painstaking detail; but last few years I've been reading the opposite that his prose is "very tight"; in fact the opposite of wordy. Considering this in a foreshadowing sense it does make me wonder how much description and "needless" conversation/description is foreshadowing.

 

Not to derail the topic, but most of the issue with Jordan's prose centers around his needlessly verbose and repetitious description of character actions (smoothing of skirts, sniffing, etc.), places (every time the scenery travels to Tar Valon or the Tower for the first time, we get the same descriptions), concepts (Jordan repeated the same explanation of the concept of the novice "families" about three times within CoT and once in KoD), outfits (every single outfit is described in painstaking detail for even side characters), events (Jordan spent several pages describing a sequence of minor Aes Sedai walking into a pavillion -- their mannerisms, outfits, expressions, personalities, backgrounds, and actions up until they sat down -- in CoT), and environments (he named and described every kind of tree in a forest).

 

His prose was far from "tight." It was definitely verbose. It also featured a large deal of foreshadowing. But that foreshadowing and such is not part of the prose that people complain about.

 

“Trollocs took them. The same as the people at the ferry. That is what happened. The Fade . . . ” Ingtar shrugged and stared down at a flat, canvas-wrapped bundle, large and square, in his arms; he stared at it as if he saw hidden secrets he would rather not know.

 

I would have to have more examples of what you're talking about. That just reads as someone deeply disturbed by what they saw...and for good reason. A Myrddraal staked to a door? What kind of creature has that power? It's disturbing and terrifying. It's also not even talking about Fain. It's talking about what Fain did to a Fade.

 

Most descriptions of Fain that I recall reading are perfectly straightforward. When Perrin's thinking about him after running into him in the Two Rivers, he thinks that it's hard to believe Fain used to be someone the Two Rivers knew and trusted. A peddler that folks flocked to for news and goods.

 

Prose: that's my point though there is a *lot* of description. This time around I'm reading a lot slower and whilst there is some verbose there is a lot of foreshadowing, hints and secondary description hidden within the text.

 

A good example reading the Amerlyns trip to Shinear. Re-reading it from a context of book 13 and understanding how Aes Sedai politics work and there is a lot more going on than is inherently shown upon first reading; most of which is done in over zealous description.

 

 

Fain: the above example was not the best... but its more the point that he just seems to drop out of sight a lot more than most. We as the reader know Fain is important... but fains's actions seem to be forgotten about almost the instant he is out of sight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A good example reading the Amerlyns trip to Shinear. Re-reading it from a context of book 13 and understanding how Aes Sedai politics work and there is a lot more going on than is inherently shown upon first reading; most of which is done in over zealous description.

 

Except examples like this are not what people are talking about when they call Jordan verbose, long-winded, what have you. I wasn't saying Jordan was a bad writer (though, he does have his terrible moments and plenty of failings), I'm saying that your statement that his writing is "very tight" is just...wrong.

 

Fain: the above example was not the best... but its more the point that he just seems to drop out of sight a lot more than most. We as the reader know Fain is important... but fains's actions seem to be forgotten about almost the instant he is out of sight.

 

I hardly think that Perrin has forgotten the murder of his entire family. And I hardly think that Rand has forgotten Fain going to the Two Rivers.

 

The thing is, most of the people we see who would know Fain or have any reason to think about him have more pressing concerns when Fain is not around most of the time. Fain is not a constant thorn in their sides. We know more about what he's up to than the characters in the series, and we hardly ever talk about him. Because, quite frankly, he's just not involved too often.

 

Fain is a wildcard. He is intentionally kept mysterious. And this mystery is not in itself mysterious.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not to derail the topic, but most of the issue with Jordan's prose centers around his needlessly verbose and repetitious description of character actions (smoothing of skirts, sniffing, etc.), places (every time the scenery travels to Tar Valon or the Tower for the first time, we get the same descriptions), concepts (Jordan repeated the same explanation of the concept of the novice "families" about three times within CoT and once in KoD), outfits (every single outfit is described in painstaking detail for even side characters), events (Jordan spent several pages describing a sequence of minor Aes Sedai walking into a pavillion -- their mannerisms, outfits, expressions, personalities, backgrounds, and actions up until they sat down -- in CoT), and environments (he named and described every kind of tree in a forest).

 

Yes and no.

 

I can live with some of the seemingly meaningless character descriptions and actions because so many of the various character description and actions have been huge clues as to the person's true identity or allegiance. If a lot of that was removed, then it would be a huge flashing light that THIS IS IMPORTANT instead of remaining as "is this an overly wordy section?" or "is this a clue?".

 

I do agree that there are some unimportant items that could have been skipped and that page time could have been spent developing or expanding other plotlines.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not to derail the topic, but most of the issue with Jordan's prose centers around his needlessly verbose and repetitious description of character actions (smoothing of skirts, sniffing, etc.), places (every time the scenery travels to Tar Valon or the Tower for the first time, we get the same descriptions), concepts (Jordan repeated the same explanation of the concept of the novice "families" about three times within CoT and once in KoD), outfits (every single outfit is described in painstaking detail for even side characters), events (Jordan spent several pages describing a sequence of minor Aes Sedai walking into a pavillion -- their mannerisms, outfits, expressions, personalities, backgrounds, and actions up until they sat down -- in CoT), and environments (he named and described every kind of tree in a forest).

 

Yes and no.

 

I can live with some of the seemingly meaningless character descriptions and actions because so many of the various character description and actions have been huge clues as to the person's true identity or allegiance. If a lot of that was removed, then it would be a huge flashing light that THIS IS IMPORTANT instead of remaining as "is this an overly wordy section?" or "is this a clue?".

 

I do agree that there are some unimportant items that could have been skipped and that page time could have been spent developing or expanding other plotlines.

 

If other authors can fit subtle foreshadowing into their works without being incredibly verbose, so could Jordan.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not to derail the topic, but most of the issue with Jordan's prose centers around his needlessly verbose and repetitious description of character actions (smoothing of skirts, sniffing, etc.), places (every time the scenery travels to Tar Valon or the Tower for the first time, we get the same descriptions), concepts (Jordan repeated the same explanation of the concept of the novice "families" about three times within CoT and once in KoD), outfits (every single outfit is described in painstaking detail for even side characters), events (Jordan spent several pages describing a sequence of minor Aes Sedai walking into a pavillion -- their mannerisms, outfits, expressions, personalities, backgrounds, and actions up until they sat down -- in CoT), and environments (he named and described every kind of tree in a forest).

 

Yes and no.

 

I can live with some of the seemingly meaningless character descriptions and actions because so many of the various character description and actions have been huge clues as to the person's true identity or allegiance. If a lot of that was removed, then it would be a huge flashing light that THIS IS IMPORTANT instead of remaining as "is this an overly wordy section?" or "is this a clue?".

 

I do agree that there are some unimportant items that could have been skipped and that page time could have been spent developing or expanding other plotlines.

 

If other authors can fit subtle foreshadowing into their works without being incredibly verbose, so could Jordan.

 

There is a difference between foreshadowing and FORESHADOWING. I prefer the way RJ does it ... foreshadow hidden in description... a description often itself offering subtle clues as to a characters feelings/alignment. The colours and fabric a charcter wears may be verbose at times but they hint and add depth to the characters who are often portrayed at showing no emotions.

 

A massive example is the clothes rand wears.... it is no co-incidence that a lot of the clothing he wears are increasingly dark colours with gold embrodery.... (veins of gold).... naturally I've not included anythgin from TGS and ToM in this as I don;t think BS has continued the trend and decided to make a "jedi" reference instead.

 

I could also make a case for the several references to "white enough to satisfy a good wife of two-rivers" has been mentioend a few times. White which is dirty and un-cared for is grey an subtle reminder that to wear grey is to compromise (Seachan Damne & politicians of the Grey Ajah)

Edited by boli
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is a difference between foreshadowing and FORESHADOWING.

 

I agree. Which is why I said, "If other authors can fit subtle foreshadowing into their works without being incredibly verbose, so could Jordan."

Edited by Roxinos
Link to comment
Share on other sites

They don't, really. I've never read anything with foreshadowing like WoT. Not even close.

 

Agreed, though you have to wonder how much was intentionally planted by RJ with future events in mind as opposed to him later deciding to build on things from earlier books. Some seeds were probably planted in case he MIGHT want to go down that path later, like Thom's line about the Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks marrying the Amyrlin Seat. That felt more like something RJ considered, but ultimately decided against doing than simply a red herring.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They don't, really. I've never read anything with foreshadowing like WoT. Not even close.

 

Agreed, though you have to wonder how much was intentionally planted by RJ with future events in mind as opposed to him later deciding to build on things from earlier books. Some seeds were probably planted in case he MIGHT want to go down that path later, like Thom's line about the Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks marrying the Amyrlin Seat. That felt more like something RJ considered, but ultimately decided against doing than simply a red herring.

 

Yeah, I considered that too, on that particular line. I think he had a fairly solid idea of endgame stuff in the beginning because he had the whole myth-mashing thing going on, but there are a lot of details he could have gone either way with. You might say that about the Gawyn foreshadowing, too. But I tend to believe that he really did have that final scene in his head from the beginning, like he always said, and that puts certain limitations on things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...