The Battle for Caemlyn

[blueeys54]

After reading discussion after discussion, Ive noticed a very philisophical mindset. You guys put a lot of thought into every post (most of the time). Lets discuss the upcoming battle that will pit the Band of the Red Hand vs. The Shadow. Mat has some difficult times ahead. We know that Caemlyn is under attack, but not how. Did the shadow use the WAYS to move there? I think there is a portal stone somewhere on the Black Tower grounds. I have no evidence on this, but the Black Tower has to play a part in this. Any thoughts? This gives the shadow a command center that already has established defenses and a base of channelers. From this base, the assault on Caemlyn has begun. Have we any reason to believe that the dragons have been mounted on the city walls, or are they simply in storage. How will this assault be repelled? Is this the showdown between Mat and Demondred that we will be looking for? I think Mat will be in the first official confrontation of the LAST BATTLE. Lets hear some of the speculation.

[EmperorMayhem]

a couple points come to mind... and you can dissect them as you may

 

1. Rand established the black tower, and would know if there was a portal stone there.

2. whether or not there are dragons on the city walls, its irrelevant, due to the fact that the enemy is already in the city. (this is assumed, since we haven't directly seen the city)

3. matt is not the first confrontation of the last battle, because it already started. rand unleashed an onslaught to save that one city in towers of midnight, remember?

 

i think that the battle of caemlyn will see the army on the plains Travelling back to deal with the shadowspawn and such. perhaps it will coincide with Logain's glory being attained, and involving the black tower??

[MasterAblar]

a couple points come to mind... and you can dissect them as you may

 

1. Rand established the black tower, and would know if there was a portal stone there.

2. whether or not there are dragons on the city walls, its irrelevant, due to the fact that the enemy is already in the city. (this is assumed, since we haven't directly seen the city)

3. matt is not the first confrontation of the last battle, because it already started. rand unleashed an onslaught to save that one city in towers of midnight, remember?

 

i think that the battle of caemlyn will see the army on the plains Travelling back to deal with the shadowspawn and such. perhaps it will coincide with Logain's glory being attained, and involving the black tower??

 

I'm thinking Logain's glory will be more of a lifelong achievement award.

 

I'm hoping that the battle of Caemlyn will coincide with the Seanchan attacking Tar Valon, and hopefully with Naeff arriving at the FoM to tell Rand that he needs to get his ass back to the BT immediately (I don't see how Androl and Pevara can hope to take on Taim and his men on their own).

[Suttree]

I'm hoping that the battle of Caemlyn will coincide with the Seanchan attacking Tar Valon, and hopefully with Naeff arriving at the FoM to tell Rand that he needs to get his ass back to the BT immediately (I don't see how Androl and Pevara can hope to take on Taim and his men on their own).

 

Yeah I don't see that either. Although we know per BS that Pevara has a big moment of awesome coming up. Interested to see what that is...

[MasterAblar]

I'm hoping that the battle of Caemlyn will coincide with the Seanchan attacking Tar Valon, and hopefully with Naeff arriving at the FoM to tell Rand that he needs to get his ass back to the BT immediately (I don't see how Androl and Pevara can hope to take on Taim and his men on their own).

 

Yeah I don't see that either. Although we know per BS that Pevara has a big moment of awesome coming up. Interested to see what that is...

 

If it's an awesome moment in battle than I assume it'll probably take place at the BT. But it's not in a battle than perhaps she'll get pissed off at other Aes Sedai who want to keep the Ashaman on a leash and see them as rabbid dogs. I know I've been waiting for someone to tell them to shut up with the prejudice. Her experience with Androl and the Ashaman with him is bound to have affected her, and hopefully for the better. Something is going to have to get the two groups working together for the Last Battle. Maybe Rand, maybe Cadsuane, but I think Pevarar will have a hand in it as well.

[Durinax]

well some of my points are

1) mat isnt with the band so they are already a bit demoralized

2) mat's only effective pre engagement as far as we know

3) the band is already rallying towards the city

[FarShainMael]

@blueeys54: According to Verin's letter to Mat, opened by Olver in ToM Epilogue, "There is a Waygate in Caemlyn. It is guarded, barricaded, and thought secure. It is not.

 

An enormous force of Shadowspawn moves through the Ways toward Caemlyn."

 

We know from TEotW35/39/44 that this Waygate is in the New City, which is outside the walls of the Inner City. So the fighting will begin in the New City, and cannon could indeed be mounted on Inner City walls.

 

I agree with EmperorMayhem that it's unlikely there's a Portal Stone at the BT (unless of course Demandred has somehow provided one..)

 

I think the attackers will be repelled by Mat's cannons.

 

I also think the BT battle will be separate - though the Caemlyn invasion may be a feint to distract attention from there.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I will only provide a few thoughts, since the battle is too huge a thing to think of every little detail.

 

1. Moggy will be the one that got the Shadowspawn through the Ways. It was her people from the Black Ajah that let the invasion slip to Elayne, she is supposed to be rallying the DFs and foreshadowing with her talking to Elayne, Nynaeve or Egwene about putting holes through Wards. She will break the Wards on the Waygate and allow Shadowspawn to pass unmolested. Plus, she is mindtrapped, she has to do what Moridin tells her, so no hiding for the spider.

 

2. Demandred will have overall command of the Shadows armies. He will have had a hand in Caemlyn's invasion, but he won't be wasted actually fighting there. He says generals shouldn't have to fight with their soldiers, and the Shadow wouldn't waste him just to take a city.

 

3. Rand won't go to help, not immediately. He will go to the White Tower to help with the Seanchan and secure an alliance with them for the Last Battle. Then he will need to go to the Black Tower. It will be well in hand before he has a chance to arrive. (Caemlyn, that is)

 

4. Mat will be with Rand and Egwene. He needs to be in Tar Valon for 1, the Horn 2, the Seanchan alliance 3, Moiraine will want to get to Rand ASAP. He won't know about the attack on Caemlyn until he gets to the FoM if Grady provides a Gateway. He will chose to go to Tar Valon and deal with Fortuna.

 

5. Mat will save Caemlyn with the armies of the Seanchan under his control after securing an alliance with Rand and Egwene at Tar Valon. They will show up and save the day.

[Manscher]

I got this little pet theory that Rand is going to end up fighting Moridin inside Taim's palace, and that his "Blood on the rocks of Shayul Ghul" will be occure there.

[Durinax]

the cannons wouldn't be on the new city walls, remember they where firing into the country side during the tests. although there may be a few located on the ground in the new city in storage

[FarShainMael]

I said that they could be mounted, not that they already were. If the Band has enough time, of course..

[Benganza]

3. Rand won't go to help, not immediately. He will go to the White Tower to help with the Seanchan and secure an alliance with them for the Last Battle. Then he will need to go to the Black Tower. It will be well in hand before he has a chance to arrive. (Caemlyn, that is)

 

4. Mat will be with Rand and Egwene. He needs to be in Tar Valon for 1, the Horn 2, the Seanchan alliance 3, Moiraine will want to get to Rand ASAP. He won't know about the attack on Caemlyn until he gets to the FoM if Grady provides a Gateway. He will chose to go to Tar Valon and deal with Fortuna.

 

5. Mat will save Caemlyn with the armies of the Seanchan under his control after securing an alliance with Rand and Egwene at Tar Valon. They will show up and save the day.

The City is already under attack from within, so I don't see how Mat is able to do all that and be back in Caemlyn to save the City before it is destroyed.

[Barid Bel Medar]

A battle hardly lasts for an hour or two. Look how Ituralde was holed up in Maradon for days while the Trollocs were inside the city. Caemlyn is bigger and more people are there to defend it. Besides the fact that others would be sent to help.

 

Did you forget Travelling?

 

Mat could be there, talk to Tuon and be back all in a matter of hours. It will likely take a bit more than that, but they have days before the Shadowspawn completely destroy every single person.

 

I never said that Caemlyn would be whole and healthy when Mat arrived. Just save the remaining people and re-take the city.

[rand4747]

since the enemy is in the city you would not use cannon on them even if mounted on the inner city walls. for several reasons, you will be destroying your own city, and they are not effective because the city is in the way between them and the enemy, and you have no time to do so anyway, the cannon is only effective in open areas against a fairly concentrated enemy, not spread out in a city slaughtering and burning. The defense will have to be done with soldiers on the ground or channelers. But it will be difficult and if there are people occupying the city at the time (which they will be) they are screwed. In the time it could take to organise getting people out or defending you could lose the entire city to fire and the sword. The Inner city could possibly be defended though, with a good amount of effort.

[Barid Bel Medar]

since the enemy is in the city you would not use cannon on them even if mounted on the inner city walls. for several reasons, you will be destroying your own city, and they are not effective because the city is in the way between them and the enemy, and you have no time to do so anyway, the cannon is only effective in open areas against a fairly concentrated enemy, not spread out in a city slaughtering and burning. The defense will have to be done with soldiers on the ground or channelers. But it will be difficult and if there are people occupying the city at the time (which they will be) they are screwed. In the time it could take to organise getting people out or defending you could lose the entire city to fire and the sword. The Inner city could possibly be defended though, with a good amount of effort.

 

You are correct. The best bet is to use house-by-house strategy, like Ituralde in Maradon after they had broken through the walls. As it stands, they do not have enough strength to defend or re-take the city, if the invasion is as big as it is supposed to be. The best thing to do would be to hold out as long as possible and hope to hell help arrives. Getting to the cannons and holeing up in the palace seems the most likely option.

 

Also, the inner city cannot be defended. The Waygate is inside the inner city. It is already screwed, unfortunately.

[FarShainMael]

The Waygate is inside the inner city. It is already screwed, unfortunately.

 

I doon't think that's right. As I said upthread:

 

"We know from TEotW35/39/44 that this Waygate is in the New City, which is outside the walls of the Inner City."

 

If you don't want to dig yourself I'll try and put that together, but it'll take a while, and I can't start straight away because of a small matter of Clean Shirts..

[Barid Bel Medar]

The Waygate is inside the inner city. It is already screwed, unfortunately.

 

I doon't think that's right. As I said upthread:

 

"We know from TEotW35/39/44 that this Waygate is in the New City, which is outside the walls of the Inner City."

 

If you don't want to dig yourself I'll try and put that together, but it'll take a while, and I can't start straight away because of a small matter of Clean Shirts..

 

Heh, I am probably confused with Inner/New city. My bad. I was thinking that when I typed it, but wasn't sure. No need to dig it up, I will trust your word this time

 

So, the inner city is still a possibility for a defendable position, well this is certainly good for everyone. A drawn out mini-siege is possible. Depends really on the response from Elayne, Rand and Egwene and the force of Shadowspawn.

 

It will likely be decided by what Channelers are present/available. That is the only big impact. A normal fight with normal weapons (although I suppose Shadowspawn aren't exactly normal) is fairly easy to predict tactics wise and the possibilities.

 

However, when you have Channelers, it is unpredictable. They could do what they did at Maradon and simply destroy the walls with the OP. One of the Forsaken could wreak havoc if there are no Channelers to challenge them. Lightning raining down, fireballs everywhere, not to mention balefire. It could be pretty messy. . So much could happen.

[FarShainMael]

The last time this came up, I was told it was outside the inner walls, but inside the outer walls..

 

..if that helps

 

Sigh. Back to the shirts.

[Durinax]

A battle hardly lasts for an hour or two. Look how Ituralde was holed up in Maradon for days while the Trollocs were inside the city. Caemlyn is bigger and more people are there to defend it. Besides the fact that others would be sent to help.

 

Did you forget Travelling?

 

Mat could be there, talk to Tuon and be back all in a matter of hours. It will likely take a bit more than that, but they have days before the Shadowspawn completely destroy every single person.

 

I never said that Caemlyn would be whole and healthy when Mat arrived. Just save the remaining people and re-take the city.

yes but remember Ituralde is a great captain, who had things organized before the shadowspawn entered the city, and he was fighting with men who had experience against these monstrocities. The Southern Armies are going to have a hell of a time dealing with moral when these monsters attack them.

 

Not to mention Mat has no way of travelling currently, moraine does not know the weave. His only hope to go anywhere useful is that Perrins ashaman finds him

[gloweye]

Met isn't excatly stuck in wilderness...One of Perrin's asha'man(forgot which) makes a gateway at their point of arrival every day at noon. he'll be at FoM soon enough.

 

The real question is, who's gonna inform FoM that ceamlyn is under attack? someone will have to. I think the best possibility is the Kin. i think they will screw up partly for not warning them in time.

 

About the siege, Mat remarked once on its defendibility. i forgot where, but he had memories of trying to attack it, and in his words "Caemlyn never made for an easy fight" and as "build by Ogier with defence in mind". If the Band and the Kin can mount a defence for the Inner city, they will be able to hold it quite long. don't forget that even without mat, the Band is the army in Randland with most fighting experience(source: wot wikia. i know, not too relyable, but not nonsene either.) with the possible exception of Aiel.

 

I do hope the Kin will fight. so far, they've proven completely useless as battle channelers as a group, although exeptions may occur.

 

as for who will assist in defence, i don't really have the feeling i can make a good guess. everyone seems to be busy at FoM. maybe this will be the first on-screen shadow victory.

[MasterAblar]

A battle hardly lasts for an hour or two. Look how Ituralde was holed up in Maradon for days while the Trollocs were inside the city. Caemlyn is bigger and more people are there to defend it. Besides the fact that others would be sent to help.

 

Did you forget Travelling?

 

Mat could be there, talk to Tuon and be back all in a matter of hours. It will likely take a bit more than that, but they have days before the Shadowspawn completely destroy every single person.

 

I never said that Caemlyn would be whole and healthy when Mat arrived. Just save the remaining people and re-take the city.

yes but remember Ituralde is a great captain, who had things organized before the shadowspawn entered the city, and he was fighting with men who had experience against these monstrocities. The Southern Armies are going to have a hell of a time dealing with moral when these monsters attack them.

 

Not to mention Mat has no way of travelling currently, moraine does not know the weave. His only hope to go anywhere useful is that Perrins ashaman finds him

 

Why wouldn't he find him? He knows exactly where he is. All Mat has to do is stay where he is. Grady said he would make a gateway every day I believe.

[Durinax]

A battle hardly lasts for an hour or two. Look how Ituralde was holed up in Maradon for days while the Trollocs were inside the city. Caemlyn is bigger and more people are there to defend it. Besides the fact that others would be sent to help.

 

Did you forget Travelling?

 

Mat could be there, talk to Tuon and be back all in a matter of hours. It will likely take a bit more than that, but they have days before the Shadowspawn completely destroy every single person.

 

I never said that Caemlyn would be whole and healthy when Mat arrived. Just save the remaining people and re-take the city.

yes but remember Ituralde is a great captain, who had things organized before the shadowspawn entered the city, and he was fighting with men who had experience against these monstrocities. The Southern Armies are going to have a hell of a time dealing with moral when these monsters attack them.

 

Not to mention Mat has no way of travelling currently, moraine does not know the weave. His only hope to go anywhere useful is that Perrins ashaman finds him

 

Why wouldn't he find him? He knows exactly where he is. All Mat has to do is stay where he is. Grady said he would make a gateway every day I believe.

mat has moved his camp away from the drop off site though. Not to mention if Perrin remembers to send him with all he is dealing with at the FoM

[MasterAblar]

A battle hardly lasts for an hour or two. Look how Ituralde was holed up in Maradon for days while the Trollocs were inside the city. Caemlyn is bigger and more people are there to defend it. Besides the fact that others would be sent to help.

 

Did you forget Travelling?

 

Mat could be there, talk to Tuon and be back all in a matter of hours. It will likely take a bit more than that, but they have days before the Shadowspawn completely destroy every single person.

 

I never said that Caemlyn would be whole and healthy when Mat arrived. Just save the remaining people and re-take the city.

yes but remember Ituralde is a great captain, who had things organized before the shadowspawn entered the city, and he was fighting with men who had experience against these monstrocities. The Southern Armies are going to have a hell of a time dealing with moral when these monsters attack them.

 

Not to mention Mat has no way of travelling currently, moraine does not know the weave. His only hope to go anywhere useful is that Perrins ashaman finds him

 

Why wouldn't he find him? He knows exactly where he is. All Mat has to do is stay where he is. Grady said he would make a gateway every day I believe.

mat has moved his camp away from the drop off site though. Not to mention if Perrin remembers to send him with all he is dealing with at the FoM

 

As long as Mat remembers the spot where Grady first made the gateway he should be fine, he just needs to be there at noon. And if doesn't remember maybe his luck will. And Grady probably doesn't need Perrin to remind him.

[Durinax]

A battle hardly lasts for an hour or two. Look how Ituralde was holed up in Maradon for days while the Trollocs were inside the city. Caemlyn is bigger and more people are there to defend it. Besides the fact that others would be sent to help.

 

Did you forget Travelling?

 

Mat could be there, talk to Tuon and be back all in a matter of hours. It will likely take a bit more than that, but they have days before the Shadowspawn completely destroy every single person.

 

I never said that Caemlyn would be whole and healthy when Mat arrived. Just save the remaining people and re-take the city.

yes but remember Ituralde is a great captain, who had things organized before the shadowspawn entered the city, and he was fighting with men who had experience against these monstrocities. The Southern Armies are going to have a hell of a time dealing with moral when these monsters attack them.

 

Not to mention Mat has no way of travelling currently, moraine does not know the weave. His only hope to go anywhere useful is that Perrins ashaman finds him

 

Why wouldn't he find him? He knows exactly where he is. All Mat has to do is stay where he is. Grady said he would make a gateway every day I believe.

mat has moved his camp away from the drop off site though. Not to mention if Perrin remembers to send him with all he is dealing with at the FoM

 

As long as Mat remembers the spot where Grady first made the gateway he should be fine, he just needs to be there at noon. And if doesn't remember maybe his luck will. And Grady probably doesn't need Perrin to remind him.

grady is a soldier, if he has had other orders that could have a higher priority then porting daily to one spot to see if mats there could be pushed to the back burner. Not to mention after checking so many times eventually he will stick his head through look around see nothing and just go back to FoM

[MasterAblar]

grady is a soldier, if he has had other orders that could have a higher priority then porting daily to one spot to see if mats there could be pushed to the back burner. Not to mention after checking so many times eventually he will stick his head through look around see nothing and just go back to FoM

 

Well, yeah obviously if he's in the middle of a battle he'll probably be a little busy. That said Mat left the same day Perrin went to the FoM, so he probably didn't hasn't checked too many times. Although seeing as time runs differently in the finn's world it could actually be days. Mat would be missing a lot of stuff if that happened though, so I doubt he's been in the ToG for that long.