Lanfear's Price

[Sheepherder]

Moraine told Matt and Tom that a man came looking for Lanfear (presumably) while she was with the Finns. Shortly after that event Cyndane shows up as one of Moridin's pets.

 

I've seen a couple questions raised in the threads about this event. First, how exactly did Moridin (or possibly Slayer) waltz into Finnland and then walk back out without some of the same fun filled adventures Matt went through? Secondly, if he did get Lanfear from them, why is she in a new body?

 

The idea I have is that those two questions are actually connected. Moridin didn't really need Lanfear, just her soul. The Finns, though, would have taken their time draining her and probably wouldn't have been finished with her until after the last battle so Moridin took matters into his own hands to speed up the process. He went in and asked for her returned. The Finn's asked what price would be paid for her and Moridin offered her life as payment. It seems like the kind of logic Moridin would use to outsmart the Finns at their own game. The DO can transmute her soul so it's no skin off his back if they kill her but it is a hefty price (specifically for Lanfear). It's a win win for Moridin and it explains why he was able to come and then leave and why Lanfear is in a new body afterwards.

 

What the Finns told Moraine could have been true, that they drained and killed her too quickly accidentally, but then, when Moridin came and found that out, he wouldn't have had anything to bargain for a way to leave unscathed. In fact, he wouldn't have come in the first place because the DO would have already known she was dead and transmuted her soul.

 

Just a random thought I had and hadn't seen on the threads anywhere.

[RandA lThor]

I also thought the same thing. This seems like a good idea that both sides would be happy with. i was asking myself the same question before. the only thing is that the finn wouldn't just want to kill her, they would want to savor her. he probably had to give something else too.

[Sharaman]

If the three rule holds, Moridin (more likely than Slayer for several reasons) couyld have done it

Here's a sketchy outline.

Moridin enters by Tear, asks his three questions including ways to get in/ out of Finnland alive.

Being a philosopher and a very smart loony, he figures out how to to do it from the answers.

Then he trips through ToG and gets to the Hall of Bargains (using the knowledge gleaned from his Qs).

Uses his bargains to get himself out with Lanfear's body/soul. Somewhere along the line, he blasts the Tear gate shut.

 

The reasons why Moridin is more likely than Slayer

Slayer's one major gift of navigating TAR is probably useless in Finnland

Moridin knows a lot more in general and Moridin can Channel two different ways. While the Finns may have ter'angreals that block OP, they may not have a defence against TP. Rand's fiery sword was useful. Moridin can likely do a great deal more.

Whatever took out the Tear Door was probably power-based.

It's reasonable to assume that whoever "rescued" Lanfear was responsible.

[boli]

It is unlikely to be a direct "kill"... remember they work off sensations/feelings so he prob offered to rape, torture and kill her for the Finns in return for his exit. Thus the finns get their sensation "fix"; the DO gets Lanfear back Mordien gets to have his "fun" and another pawn.

 

It might also go somewhere to explaining the scene with lanfear begging for Rand's help.... her hated enemy who refused to hurt her and was nothgin but nice to her (relatively); he was almost cordial to her in every meeting.

 

Interview: Oct 24th, 1998

 

TPOD Signing Report - Chris Mullins (Paraphrased)

Chris Mullins

 

I asked RJ, at the Palo Alto signing, if Moghedien was raped by Shadar Haran in A Crown of Swords.

Robert Jordan

 

His reply was, "Yes. Amongst other things."

 

 

EDIT: according to another interview Lanfear was not raped (at leats by CoS)... but torture is another matter.

[TristanWebb]

The Finns don't like anything to do with the Shadow. Or atleast treat questions touching the Shadow differently than other questions. If Moridin walks in and starts channelling the TP, I think they would let him go.

 

Though I was under the impression it was Shadar Haran who was there, not sure where that came from. Up to Winter's Heart in my readthrough so I should be able to tell you in a few weeks.

[Sharaman]

Moiraine said it was a "man" she saw. That is another possible hint against Slayer - She didn't qualify by saying a man who looked a bit like Lan, or a bit like Rand.

But definitely not Shaidar Haran, at least not unless he can use MoM or some other shape changing.

[TheLagomorph]

I can even imagine that as part of the price Moridin would refrain from tearing them to pieces or balefiring the place to smithereens. Perhaps even promising not to use the True Power in finnland would suffice as a price. Since if the TP is the DO using it will taint and affect all it touches and their world might experience things similar to:

 

"To his ears, the world screamed as he used the TP to rip a small hole and step outside the Pattern." [ACOS: 20, Patterns Within Patterns, 358]

 

Moridin is under no obligation to play fair.

[bigdoug1971]

There are so many scenarios that could have played out to get her from there. He could have even sacrificed darkfriends or captured channeler(s) in her place. He could have offered them something that he knew about from years of studying and life that we, as the ignorant audience, don't know about altogether.

I personally think he asked for her in a way that granted him what he wanted. He's crazy, but smart too. Use Mat for example: Mat got the medallion, memories, and the ashandarai, not to mention extra questions answered without even knowing what he was doing. Of course his gifts are credited to being ta'veren. Moridin has known about the Aelfinn/Eelfinn for over 3000 years. And he's from a time when they probably had a lot more knowledge about them as well. Or, he could just as easily have asked, threatened, then destroyed and finally took her out of there. The only reason Moiraine knew he was there is because they broght him to her first and she was the wrong person. He made some kind of deal in order to have them show him around enough to go see Moiraine first and then on to Lanfear.

[Sheepherder]

It's true that Moridin is a crafty and dangerous fellow who has more knowledge then probably anyone alive when it comes to the Finns. There are likely a hundred scenarios for him to successfully go in and get Lanfear out but none easily answers the question of why Lanfear is now cyndane if he was successful.

 

If she was dead already, then the DO would have already transmigrated her, Mori would know she was dead, and he would have had no reason to visit Finnland for Moraine to see him. So, she was alive when Mory went in and dead when he came out (unless she was killed after coming out but then what would be the point of that?) That leaves only a few options.

 

One, Mori walked in and killed her to get her soul back. While Mori could probably accomplish it, this seems like a risky choice for him to make cause it would certainly piss the Finn's off.

 

Two, he tried to rescue her but in the process of escaping she got killed. Seems a bit of a convoluted and unnecessary story arc to have off screen. It would be simpler just to have the Finns kill her like they told Moraine they did.

 

Three, and obviously my personally favorite from my original post, is that Mori offered her death (probably an unpleasant death by the way) as payment for her soul and his exit out of Finnland.

[Ala Rubra]

Three, and obviously my personally favorite from my original post, is that Mori offered her death (probably an unpleasant death by the way) as payment for her soul and his exit out of Finnland.

 

One possibility is that the finns did, in fact, kill Lanfear by draining her too quickly. It just wasn't an accident.

[Sheepherder]

Good point and a definite possibility but I'm not sure doing something they would have done already (albeit in a much faster process) would count as a price for Mori getting her back. That would bring us back to the problem then of what did Mori give the Finns for her? He's the nae'blis so obviously he can just threaten them with the TP but again that is risky even for him when dealing with the Finns. Simpler to pay them with a an agonizing death that they can savor.

[Barid Bel Medar]

He also could have killed her himself. Or the DO killed her.

 

Cyndane means "Last Chance" in the OT, which implies that the DO is not happy with her.

 

She is mindtrapped at the moment by Moridin, possibly being tortured.

 

Lanfear doesn't like her new body, she was the most beautiful woman alive at one stage. I can see this as being a punishment from the DO.

 

Moridin walks in with the OP and TP, he wont hesitate to kill the Finns. He gets to the Hall of Bargains or what not, and is given 3 wishes, he asks for Lanfear back, and who knows what else. Possibly asking to be allowed out without getting killed. Or he just doesn't care and asks for something else, and channels his way out. Then at SG the DO and Moridin kill Lanfear and put her in a new body because of all the trouble she caused. Moridin wouldn't have been too happy to have to go fetch her.

 

The thing that I don't like is that the FInns world is a parallel world, if someone dies there, I don't know if the DO can reach their soul. Graendal thought of escaping to a mirror world (not the same thing, but similar principle) so it would be hard for even the DO to follow her.

[TristanWebb]

I don't like the idea that her price was her dieing. They already had her, and could kill her any time they wished. There has to be more, or else you are saying they are idiots and Mat gave up his eye for nothing.

[Sheepherder]

I don't like the idea that her price was her dieing. They already had her, and could kill her any time they wished. There has to be more, or else you are saying they are idiots and Mat gave up his eye for nothing.

 

I'll concede that just killing her wouldnt be much of a price since, as you said, they could do it anytime. I was thinking more along the lines though of Moridin killing her for them in a very... creative way that satisfies them even more then draining would. I would think Mori has more methods of killing someone in an unpleasant manner then even the Finns do.

 

I fail to see, though, how this scenario makes Mat look stupid for giving up his eye. Mat has no access to the OP or TP and has no ability to transmigrate Moraine's soul after she dies so he doesn't have nearly the same number of options as Mori had. Plus, the price had already been previously set of his eye for Moraine. It's not a bargain he could renegotiate.

 

Barid's idea of killing her after the rescue and putting her in a less majestic body as punishment is a good one, especially in conjunction with the meaning of her name. I'll agree that's a possible alternative.

 

 

[RandA lThor]

I still think that he asked for somethings, then for the price gave Lanfear's life and some other little thing. He might have even let them torture her immensely and might have helped them to get what he wanted.

[Sharaman]

He may also have tripped in the bargain - the Finns agreed to return her but not to return her alive.

Or he just didn't care if she was alive/ dead.

Time works differently in Finnland and we don't get a clear sense from Moiraine of when exactly the Finns killed Lanfear (if they did) visavis the arrival of the man.

So the sequence of events, Finns killing Lanfear/ man bargaining for her/ etc. is unclear and many possibilities exist.