Olver, Elayne, and Caemlyn

[Barid Bel Medar]

Rand has to go pretty close to Caemlyn to fix the black tower anyway, could save the city on his way through. I doubt if Elayne asked him to help he would say no though, he may be all sparkly now but he became that way because he is in love.

 

I don't know about that. If he needed to let Caemlyn burn, he would. If it didn't get in the way of anything important, yeah, he would probably go if Elayne asked, even though he wouldn't necessarily want to. But if he thought he had more important things to do, he would definitely say no, he doesn't mess around any more, not when it comes to the DO and TG.

 

The Black Tower part, I agree with, but don't know if that will lead to Caemlyn.

[FarShainMael]

Oh dear, no more, I don't want to get started actually seriously thinking about the possibility! Thinking about it a bit, it starts to make more sense all the time

 

That's what worries me too.. OK. Back to (relative) sanity.

[RandA lThor]

What about the possibility of sending Olver to tell Mat about Caemlyn, I can imagine Mat at the FoM and Olver running up to him.

[Barid Bel Medar]

What about the possibility of sending Olver to tell Mat about Caemlyn, I can imagine Mat at the FoM and Olver running up to him.

 

hey, that's a good one. I could see Setalle Anan going with him to keep him safe as well. It makes sense. She surely wouldn't let him run off to battle.

[RandA lThor]

Yeah, he would be happy because he would be doing something important and he might even fight when Mat gets back(even though Mat will try to stop him).

He may also be able to help with dragons since that would be fighting without too much risk so Mat would be happier.

 

It would be kind of funny seeing Olver run up in the middle of FoM while everyone else is angry.

[bsmnt23]

hell, 1 channeller that is capable of formign a gateway could hold that waygate against any quantity of shadowspawn.

 

All they'de have to do is cast a gateway, right on the threshold of the waygate, the terminus of it being 1mm further forwards.make it bigger and wider than the waygate and the shadowspawn wouldn't even see it before walking through it and dying en masse.

 

I quite agree!

 

I've never been happy with the 'Caemlyn=Camlann' idea. So I've put together my thoughts on the subject.

There are a number of problems with interpreting the situation at Caemlyn as a Camlann showdown between Rand 'Arthur' alThor, and a Mordred-figure.

 

1. Where are this event and Rand's dream of Lanfear on the timeline? I've been unable to find anything definite, but I get the impression that Rand's dream happens after Caemlyn is resolved. If anyone has anything definite to the contrary, please let me know.

 

 

2.Rand is not a straight copy of Arthur Pendragon.

2.a. If RJ had wanted to do that, he would have had Artur Paendrag take the Sword Callandor from the Stone.

2.b. Arthur never lost a hand.

2.c. Arthur was a warlord. Rand is not:

"I am not to fight this war, Bashere. Today's battle exhausted me beyond what I should have allowed. If my enemies were to come upon me now, I'd be finished. Besides, I can only fight in one place at a time. What is coming will be grander than that, grander and more terrible than any one man could hope to hold back. I will organize you, but I must leave you. The war will be yours."

 

He has also said that he isn't a weapon, and he never was.

 

However, he does have a warlord available, possibly the greatest in Randland - "Bloody Matrim Cauthon". Who is on Caemlyn's doorstep - or will be, once Grady gets him back. (Note that Perrin Travelled to FoM immediately after Mat, Noal, and Thom departed for ToG; but it is not clear whether Grady went too, or whether he waits at Perrin's camp for the trio. I'd bet on the latter; Mat will want to rejoin the Band before heading for FoM.)

 

 

3. Who is Mordred supposed to be? We have a number of names containing the syllables of 'Mordred':

 

3.1 Moiraine Damodred

3.2 Moridin

3.3 Galad Damodred

3.4 Demandred

3.5 Mordeth (Fain)

 

Rather a lot to choose from!

 

 

4. The direct engagement between Mordred, who died, and Arthur, who was fatally wounded. We have already seen something very like this, when Rand Sheathed the Sword in his battle with Ba'alzamon (later reincarnated as Moridin!) in TGH47. The resultant wound in Rand's side may indeed eventually prove fatal.

 

 

5. Camlann itself. Camlann was a river, not a city. The word actually means 'crooked river':

 

http://www.earlybrit...es.html#Camlann

 

http://www.legendofk.../14-camlann.htm

 

Nevertheless, it is quite likely that RJ combined Camlann and Camelot into Caemlyn. Even so, this does not help much. The Camlaan 'strife' was a battle for succession for the throne. We've already had one of those for Caemlyn, and Elayne won it.

 

 

6. Is Caemlyn burning?

 

When Olver reads the letter and shows it to Talmanes, he goes out of the tent to look:

 

Talmanes stood just outside the tent, looking eastward. Toward Caemlyn. A reddish haze hung on the horizon, a glow over the city. One larger than had been there on other nights.

 

"Light preserve us," Talmanes whispered. "It's burning. The city is burning."

 

Consider where they are at this point. When Mat and the Band first arrived near Caemlyn, they set up camp about a league away by permission from Halwin Norry (ToM8). When Mat meets with Elayne, she gives him permission to move the camp closer, though not inside the walls as there isn't room (ToM19). Even if they don't move camp, a league isn't all that far - about 4 miles in our terms. That's quite close enough to see huge flames and clouds of smoke such as you would get if a city were on fire. Not just a 'larger' reddish haze.

 

So, all in all, I'm satisfied that 1. Caemlyn is not in serious trouble; and 2. Rand will not meet his death there (either of them!) at the hands of a Mordred-figure.

 

 

1. I've written about timeline issues before since BS has taken over, namely with the Tam issue in tGS. Basically Sanderson has said that he doesn’t handle timelines very well so I don’t think there is any way to find out where anything is in the timeline until the last book comes out to give us hard data on where everyone is, then we can work backwards. Assuming there already isn’t one out there somewhere I'm working on a timeline of the series that I'd like to post. I think that would be a really interesting reference.

 

2. Granted. ...however.

2A. Much like Rand has elements of Thor and Lucifer and Jesus there is quite a bit of Arthur in there as well. Also, Given the name of Artur Paendrag Hawkwing I think we all assumed he was a pastiche on the Pendragon, but I see more of Alexander the Great in his history than Arthur.

2B. You know the real frustrating thing about the cover that was just released? It doesn’t show his left arm. We are going to have to wait to find out if all his injuries, including the severed hand are permanent or, like Arthur they are miraculously healed.

2C. I'd say that Rand is nothing BUT a warlord; A warlord is a person with power who has both military and civil control over a subnational area due to armed forces loyal to the warlord and not to a central authority. He's been a warlord ever since FoH. What he does have is a little help from his friends to handle his light work.

 

3/4. I'm leaning toward Moridin. The connections with Mordred to Author are not always father and son, or even family at all, but there is always a connection and there is always a fight to the death. I think their link is connection enough and I think we have enough similarities with Arthur being born away to Avalon by the Three Sisters after their fight and Min's viewing for an almost certain connection.

 

5. Well, the location for Camlann or Camelot is debatable. It could have been a hill fort near the River Cam in South Cadbury but there are any number of possible locations. It doesn't necessarily matter where the actual location of the actual Camlann was as we're working of the legend of Arthur; it's the legend not the history that is relevant.

What we saw as the "Battle of Caemlyn" will not go down in history as the "Battle of Caemlyn", that was merely an internal political squabble that barely inconvenienced the city for a few months. As sieges go, it may barely end as a footnote of Elayne's ascension to the throne. The true Battle of Caemlyn we saw beginning at the end of ToM which is the opening act of the Last Battle. Camlann was Arthur’s Last Battle and i believe this is where Rand will meet his "to live you must die" fate; he will die and return, this is an established thing. Arthur was taken away to await the time when Briton would need him most again, and I believe Rand will be returned from TAR fully "returned to spec" so to speak for the fight against the Dark One.

 

6. Ok, we'll see in November :) I don’t mind being wrong if it’s at least an interesting read.

 

edited for spelling

[FarShainMael]

@ Lurk31:

 

1 Re timelines: note that in ToM3, Rand tells Egwene:

 

"In one month's time .. I'm going to travel to Shayol Ghul and break the remaining seals on the Dark One's prison.. I want you to meet with me on the day before I go to Shayol Ghul. And then.. Well, we will discuss terms."

 

Then in ToM Epilogue, Rand muses at FoM that 'On the morrow, they'd hear his demands'. So there is about a month between those two events. What's been happening during that month?

 

2c. The point of my quote from ToM32 is that Rand (unlike Arthur) does not intend to get involved with the fighting, especialy after Maradon. And he doesn't have to, as he has Mat, who is on Caemlyn's doorstep.

 

3/4 As I say, we've already had a Rand / Moridin (admittedly in his previous incarnation as Ba'alzamon) confrontation, back in TGH47.

 

5 Elayne's battle for Caemlyn was hardly an internal squabble. It was essential to stabilise the place, and to allow Elayne to go on and take Cairhien under her rule. I suggest that this was the part of the Aelfinn answer to Rand: 'The two must be as one'. As such, it's essential to him winning the LB.

 

PS: Unfortunately we have to wait until Jan 2013..

[bsmnt23]

@ Lurk31:

 

1 Re timelines: note that in ToM3, Rand tells Egwene:

 

"In one month's time .. I'm going to travel to Shayol Ghul and break the remaining seals on the Dark One's prison.. I want you to meet with me on the day before I go to Shayol Ghul. And then.. Well, we will discuss terms."

 

Then in ToM Epilogue, Rand muses at FoM that 'On the morrow, they'd hear his demands'. So there is about a month between those two events. What's been happening during that month?

 

2c. The point of my quote from ToM32 is that Rand (unlike Arthur) does not intend to get involved with the fighting, especialy after Maradon. And he doesn't have to, as he has Mat, who is on Caemlyn's doorstep.

 

3/4 As I say, we've already had a Rand / Moridin (admittedly in his previous incarnation as Ba'alzamon) confrontation, back in TGH47.

 

5 Elayne's battle for Caemlyn was hardly an internal squabble. It was essential to stabilise the place, and to allow Elayne to go on and take Cairhien under her rule. I suggest that this was the part of the Aelfinn answer to Rand: 'The two must be as one'. As such, it's essential to him winning the LB.

 

PS: Unfortunately we have to wait until Jan 2013..

 

:) I got this :)

 

1: Because of Sanderson's admited timeline issues (methinks it would take more than a sonic screwdriver to set his temporal continuity straight) the major events could be placed in any way you want, it will take the next bok to cement them in order. But I plot things thusly; Rand tells off the Tower, a month passes in which Mat and Thom and Noal are dealing with their Moiraine problem (due to its "timie-wymie" oddness could take a long time). I think we'll be seing a lot of that month of preperations and build up in the next book. I'm wiling to bet that the attack on Caemlyn is happening while Rand is addressing the assembled rulers at the FoM (Elayne is already there with her forces). Sanderson does a lot of jumping arround in the timeline and is completly unashamed of it; this is logical scenario.

 

2: Mat may be unavailable for this fight. Either he is still in the land of the Fins or in transit. The Asha'man who made him the gateway said he would have one open for them to return at a certain time every day for afew days, but a month? And Moiraine has missed out on a lot of the new weaves so she doesnt know how to Travel. They might be making the journy by shank's mare. That'll take a while, too. Either way, Rand may be forced into this fight (Arthur went unwillingly to the battle at Camlann) to save Elayne or for some other reason.

 

3/4: The fight in the sky was not their last confrontation, and even that became inconclusive when Ishamael was reincarnated into Moridin. Moridin and Rand share that link but even before that Ishamael was Rand's nemisis. They need a final battle, and we got a great place for it...

 

5: The "Two must be as One" coould never be about Andor and Cairhien; they have never been the same kingdom. They were each part of Hawkwings empire, but were carved out seperatly. The only uniting feature they have is geographical proximity and a Queen with ties to both kingdoms by blood and politics. They wont be forged into one large kingdom they will maintain their seperate identies as Andor and Cairhein, but with the same political leader, this is not "2 as 1". The "2 shall be as 1" thing was covered int VoG when Rand had his epiphany. Rand thought Lews Therin was a seperate entity, but he realised they were one when he was driven sane.

 

And yeah, January, I forgot; i think it was the Dresden Files book comes out in November. Got me confused, I greet them both with the same eagerness. :)

[RandA lThor]

I think that Rand will have to die at Shayol Ghul. I may be interpreting what Lurk is saying wrong (please correct me if I am), but I think you're saying that Rand will die at Caemlyn because of an Arhur/Camlann reference.

 

1. The prophecy says that his blood will be on the rocks at Shayol Ghul, which I interpret to say that he will die yet, no opinon yet on rebirth. This means that he won't die in Caemlyn.

2. Rand is going to be at the FoM and is going to break the seals tomorrow. After that, the last battle starts. I think that he will want to be at Shayol Ghul and at the Blight during the Last Battle, not at Caemlyn.

3. When Elayne went on her trip to the Black Ajah to try and impersonate a Forsaken with the foxhead medallion, the Black Ajah person (forgot her name), thought she was the same Forsaken that was sent there before. This probably means that that Forsaken was a female. This means that it most likely is not Moridin who did all of this planning and he will probably not go to Caemlyn.

4. Moridin is obsessed with the DO. I don't think he would leave Shayol Ghul or the Blight to go to Caemlyn in the Last Battle. He would want to be there with the DO when he wins(supposing he does).

5. Moridin is Nae'blis and he will probably be commanding or helping the main armies at Shayol Ghul and the Blight.

6. Rand knows that he can't risk other lives by not going to Shayol Ghul during the Last Battle and Caemlyn isn't going to be something done very fast.

7. Rand enters Shayol Ghul as seen in the cover of AMoL, I don't think he would do that after tiring himself out fighting in Caemlyn. Even if he didn't fight, I don't think that he would spend time in Caemlyn and not fight.

8. People such as Moiraine would stop him from going to Caemlyn. Moiraine spent her entire life finding and preparing him for this, I don't think she wants him to go somewhere else.

9. He is needed more at Shayol Ghul then at caemlyn, more forces there.

10. I cannot imagine a scene in where Rand is at Caemlyn while everyone else is fighting in the Blight in the Last Battle.

[FarShainMael]

:)  I got this :)

 

1:  Because of Sanderson's admited timeline issues (methinks it would take more than a sonic screwdriver to set his temporal continuity straight) the major events could be placed in any way you want, it will take the next bok to cement them in order.  But I plot things thusly; Rand tells off the Tower, a month passes in which Mat and Thom and Noal are dealing with their Moiraine problem (due to its "timie-wymie" oddness could take a long time).  I think we'll be seing a lot of that month of preperations and build up in the next book.  I'm wiling to bet that the attack on Caemlyn is happening while Rand is addressing the assembled rulers at the FoM (Elayne is already there with her forces).  Sanderson does a lot of jumping arround in the timeline and is completly unashamed of it; this is logical scenario.

 

I plot things differently (of course ) I think Mat and co's escape from the ToG happens fairly early on in that month. Partly because, as you say below, I can't see Grady wanting to wait around for too long; but OTOH I can't see him deserting his post.

 

2:  Mat may be unavailable for this fight.  Either he is still in the land of the Fins or in transit.  The Asha'man who made him the gateway said he would have one open for them to return at a certain time every day for afew days, but a month?  And Moiraine has missed out on a lot of the new weaves so she doesnt know how to Travel.  They might be making the journy by shank's mare.  That'll take a while, too.  Either way, Rand may be forced into this fight (Arthur went unwillingly to the battle at Camlann) to save Elayne or for some other reason.

 

We don't know whether Moiraine knows how to Travel. She may have got that knowledge from the 'finns.

 

3/4: The fight in the sky was not their last confrontation, and even that became inconclusive when Ishamael was reincarnated into Moridin.  Moridin and Rand share that link but even before that Ishamael was Rand's nemisis.  They need a final battle, and we got a great place for it...

 

It was certainly Rand's last confrontation with Ba'alzamon!

Also, remember VoG. What effect will that have had on Moridin through the link? Remember what Rand Sedai did to Torkumen.

 

5: The "Two must be as One" coould never be about Andor and Cairhien; they have never been the same kingdom.  They were each part of Hawkwings empire, but were carved out seperatly.  The only uniting feature they have is geographical proximity and a Queen with ties to both kingdoms by blood and politics.  They wont be forged into one large kingdom they will maintain their seperate identies as Andor and Cairhein, but with the same political leader, this is not "2 as 1".  The "2 shall be as 1" thing was covered int VoG when Rand had his epiphany.  Rand thought Lews Therin was a seperate entity, but he realised they were one when he was driven sane.

But they are unifed somewhat nonetheless. At least as much as the north and the east, or the south and the west.

 

As for Rand / LTT.. there are no 'two' to become one. 'For they were not two men, and never had been'.

 

There are many possibilities here, most of them dependent on timelines which BS says he has problems with.. So on the whole I think we'll simply have to agree to differ. I will make no secret of the fact that I find the whole Caemlyn/Camlann thing too cheesy for words..  But that's JMO.

[bsmnt23]

I think that Rand will have to die at Shayol Ghul. I may be interpreting what Lurk is saying wrong (please correct me if I am), but I think you're saying that Rand will die at Caemlyn because of an Arhur/Camlann reference.

 

1. The prophecy says that his blood will be on the rocks at Shayol Ghul, which I interpret to say that he will die yet, no opinon yet on rebirth. This means that he won't die in Caemlyn.

2. Rand is going to be at the FoM and is going to break the seals tomorrow. After that, the last battle starts. I think that he will want to be at Shayol Ghul and at the Blight during the Last Battle, not at Caemlyn.

3. When Elayne went on her trip to the Black Ajah to try and impersonate a Forsaken with the foxhead medallion, the Black Ajah person (forgot her name), thought she was the same Forsaken that was sent there before. This probably means that that Forsaken was a female. This means that it most likely is not Moridin who did all of this planning and he will probably not go to Caemlyn.

4. Moridin is obsessed with the DO. I don't think he would leave Shayol Ghul or the Blight to go to Caemlyn in the Last Battle. He would want to be there with the DO when he wins(supposing he does).

5. Moridin is Nae'blis and he will probably be commanding or helping the main armies at Shayol Ghul and the Blight.

6. Rand knows that he can't risk other lives by not going to Shayol Ghul during the Last Battle and Caemlyn isn't going to be something done very fast.

7. Rand enters Shayol Ghul as seen in the cover of AMoL, I don't think he would do that after tiring himself out fighting in Caemlyn. Even if he didn't fight, I don't think that he would spend time in Caemlyn and not fight.

8. People such as Moiraine would stop him from going to Caemlyn. Moiraine spent her entire life finding and preparing him for this, I don't think she wants him to go somewhere else.

9. He is needed more at Shayol Ghul then at caemlyn, more forces there.

10. I cannot imagine a scene in where Rand is at Caemlyn while everyone else is fighting in the Blight in the Last Battle.

 

1. Egwene's dream complicates things, makes the story less straightforward, a halmark of the WoT. She sees a body on a beir that looks like Rand which breaks apart when she touches it. I take this as an indicator that it is just his shell; that his soul has returned to TAR. The Dragon still needs to meet his date at Shayol Ghul, so it follows that he is returned from TAR a la Birgette's route, healed and rejuvinated for the battle with the Dark One. Rand can only be whole again when this happens; lets face it he's a wreak, and it has to happen before he goes to Shayol Ghul.

 

2. I think that how he plans to fight the Last Battle isnt how the Dark One is actualy playing the game. Refer back to some of RJs statements about the Last Battle about the Shadow is winning. I think Rand plans on breaking the seals and marching right on to Shayol Ghul, but like I said above, he's got a thing to do first. I think having to save Elayne and their babys will force him to come to Caemlyn where he will face Moridin to their mutual death leading to Rand's ultimate victory.

 

3. I dont know, but we are running low on female Forsaken.

 

4. Moridin will go where his daddy tells him to and he'll like it, lol. But seriously, he thinks he has been destined to face the Dragon throughout time and he would go to Caemlyn or anywhere else to see that ended.

 

5. The big-time commander of the Shadow's forces is supposed to be Demodred. Ishamael and now Moridin has always been a philosopher; even the War of Power he may have led armies, but everything indicates he was never very good at it. Pluse, you know, dead at the Battle of Caemlyn.

 

6. I think he is going to make a very emotional decision to save his babies when Elayne is in danger.

 

7. For the rest, the Last Battle will unfold as it needs to. No one says the army is ever going to set one boot on the slopes of Shayol Gul. That battle is for Rand. The Last Battle will be fought by the people he trusts to fight it. He's the Dragon; he wont be in the trenches, he's got bigger fish to fry. He's going to be fightin his battles while Mat and Perrin and Egwene and everyone else will be fighting theirs. As for Moiraine not letting him go to Caemlyn, well...how's that ever worked for her?

[Agitel]

Why is the battle in the sky the last confrontation with ba'alzamon? Rand fought him in Tear at the end of tDR.

 

I'm not sure how it will be done, but the Caemlyn/Camlann name parallel seems too clear to completely discount as a possibility.

[David Selig]

No way Rand would abandon his pregnant girlfriend and doesn't come to help Caemlyn if he knows there's a massive invasion going on. It would be completely and utterly out of character. Besides, it's the biggest city in the world, saving it would be a big blow against the Shadow.

 

There's no established so far reason why Rand going to Shayol Ghul can't be put off for a few days to save Caemlyn first.

[fikkie77]

Stupid remark maybe, but I don't remember reading on screen that Rand knows he's going to be a daddy...

[RandA lThor]

_{I think that Rand will have to die at Shayol Ghul. I may be interpreting what Lurk is saying wrong (please correct me if I am), but I think you're saying that Rand will die at Caemlyn because of an Arhur/Camlann reference.}

 

_{1. The prophecy says that his blood will be on the rocks at Shayol Ghul, which I interpret to say that he will die yet, no opinon yet on rebirth. This means that he won't die in Caemlyn.}

_{2. Rand is going to be at the FoM and is going to break the seals tomorrow. After that, the last battle starts. I think that he will want to be at Shayol Ghul and at the Blight during the Last Battle, not at Caemlyn.}

_{3. When Elayne went on her trip to the Black Ajah to try and impersonate a Forsaken with the foxhead medallion, the Black Ajah person (forgot her name), thought she was the same Forsaken that was sent there before. This probably means that that Forsaken was a female. This means that it most likely is not Moridin who did all of this planning and he will probably not go to Caemlyn.}

_{4. Moridin is obsessed with the DO. I don't think he would leave Shayol Ghul or the Blight to go to Caemlyn in the Last Battle. He would want to be there with the DO when he wins(supposing he does).}

_{5. Moridin is Nae'blis and he will probably be commanding or helping the main armies at Shayol Ghul and the Blight.}

_{6. Rand knows that he can't risk other lives by not going to Shayol Ghul during the Last Battle and Caemlyn isn't going to be something done very fast.}

_{7. Rand enters Shayol Ghul as seen in the cover of AMoL, I don't think he would do that after tiring himself out fighting in Caemlyn. Even if he didn't fight, I don't think that he would spend time in Caemlyn and not fight.}

_{8. People such as Moiraine would stop him from going to Caemlyn. Moiraine spent her entire life finding and preparing him for this, I don't think she wants him to go somewhere else.}

_{9. He is needed more at Shayol Ghul then at caemlyn, more forces there.}

_{10. I cannot imagine a scene in where Rand is at Caemlyn while everyone else is fighting in the Blight in the Last Battle.}

 

_{1. Egwene's dream complicates things, makes the story less straightforward, a halmark of the WoT. She sees a body on a beir that looks like Rand which breaks apart when she touches it. I take this as an indicator that it is just his shell; that his soul has returned to TAR. The Dragon still needs to meet his date at Shayol Ghul, so it follows that he is returned from TAR a la Birgette's route, healed and rejuvinated for the battle with the Dark One. Rand can only be whole again when this happens; lets face it he's a wreak, and it has to happen before he goes to Shayol Ghul.}

 

_{2. I think that how he plans to fight the Last Battle isnt how the Dark One is actualy playing the game. Refer back to some of RJs statements about the Last Battle about the Shadow is winning. I think Rand plans on breaking the seals and marching right on to Shayol Ghul, but like I said above, he's got a thing to do first. I think having to save Elayne and their babys will force him to come to Caemlyn where he will face Moridin to their mutual death leading to Rand's ultimate victory.}

 

_{3. I dont know, but we are running low on female Forsaken.}

 

_{4. Moridin will go where his daddy tells him to and he'll like it, lol. But seriously, he thinks he has been destined to face the Dragon throughout time and he would go to Caemlyn or anywhere else to see that ended.}

 

_{5. The big-time commander of the Shadow's forces is supposed to be Demodred. Ishamael and now Moridin has always been a philosopher; even the War of Power he may have led armies, but everything indicates he was never very good at it. Pluse, you know, dead at the Battle of Caemlyn.}

 

_{6. I think he is going to make a very emotional decision to save his babies when Elayne is in danger.}

 

_{7. For the rest, the Last Battle will unfold as it needs to. No one says the army is ever going to set one boot on the slopes of Shayol Gul. That battle is for Rand. The Last Battle will be fought by the people he trusts to fight it. He's the Dragon; he wont be in the trenches, he's got bigger fish to fry. He's going to be fightin his battles while Mat and Perrin and Egwene and everyone else will be fighting theirs. As for Moiraine not letting him go to Caemlyn, well...how's that ever worked for her?}

 

_{1. However, his blood will be on the rocks of Shayol Ghul which leads me to believe that he will die at Shayol Ghul.}

 

_{2. I think that after he breaks the seals, no one is going to let him leave right after that. There will be too much pressure on him to stay and I think even Elayne would tell him that.}

 

_{3. That still means that it probably wasn't Moridin. Even if he was controlling Moghedien and Cyndane, I don't think he would come to Caemlyn himself without some sort of strong urge, which he doesn't have.}

 

_{4. I agree, but I don't think Rand will go to Caemlyn so Moridin won't go.}

 

_{5. Sorry, I forgot about Demandred commanding the armies. Still Moridin is still the only one on the DO's side who can channel the TP and I don't think the DO would want him to away from Shayol Ghul.}

 

_{6. Elayne is not going to be at Caemlyn though so she won't be in danger. Plus, I think Elayne would tell him to go back to the Blight and Shayol Ghul.}

 

_{7. I think that he will listen more to Moiraine because he owes her everything and knows it well. He will be a lot more reasonable now. Plus, if he has to be at Shayol Ghul, he may not have time to go to Caemlyn.}

 

_{Anyways, we won't know until January 8, 2013. But it's still a good discussion topic. I await your response.}

[RandA lThor]

No way Rand would abandon his pregnant girlfriend and doesn't come to help Caemlyn if he knows there's a massive invasion going on. It would be completely and utterly out of character. Besides, it's the biggest city in the world, saving it would be a big blow against the Shadow.

 

There's no established so far reason why Rand going to Shayol Ghul can't be put off for a few days to save Caemlyn first.

 

It's not as much of a time issue, but more of he is needed more at Shayol Ghul because other armies can take care of that while Rand is needed to fight Forsaken, protect his armies, and seal the bore.

[bsmnt23]

_{I think that Rand will have to die at Shayol Ghul. I may be interpreting what Lurk is saying wrong (please correct me if I am), but I think you're saying that Rand will die at Caemlyn because of an Arhur/Camlann reference.}

 

_{1. The prophecy says that his blood will be on the rocks at Shayol Ghul, which I interpret to say that he will die yet, no opinon yet on rebirth. This means that he won't die in Caemlyn.}

_{2. Rand is going to be at the FoM and is going to break the seals tomorrow. After that, the last battle starts. I think that he will want to be at Shayol Ghul and at the Blight during the Last Battle, not at Caemlyn.}

_{3. When Elayne went on her trip to the Black Ajah to try and impersonate a Forsaken with the foxhead medallion, the Black Ajah person (forgot her name), thought she was the same Forsaken that was sent there before. This probably means that that Forsaken was a female. This means that it most likely is not Moridin who did all of this planning and he will probably not go to Caemlyn.}

_{4. Moridin is obsessed with the DO. I don't think he would leave Shayol Ghul or the Blight to go to Caemlyn in the Last Battle. He would want to be there with the DO when he wins(supposing he does).}

_{5. Moridin is Nae'blis and he will probably be commanding or helping the main armies at Shayol Ghul and the Blight.}

_{6. Rand knows that he can't risk other lives by not going to Shayol Ghul during the Last Battle and Caemlyn isn't going to be something done very fast.}

_{7. Rand enters Shayol Ghul as seen in the cover of AMoL, I don't think he would do that after tiring himself out fighting in Caemlyn. Even if he didn't fight, I don't think that he would spend time in Caemlyn and not fight.}

_{8. People such as Moiraine would stop him from going to Caemlyn. Moiraine spent her entire life finding and preparing him for this, I don't think she wants him to go somewhere else.}

_{9. He is needed more at Shayol Ghul then at caemlyn, more forces there.}

_{10. I cannot imagine a scene in where Rand is at Caemlyn while everyone else is fighting in the Blight in the Last Battle.}

 

_{1. Egwene's dream complicates things, makes the story less straightforward, a halmark of the WoT. She sees a body on a beir that looks like Rand which breaks apart when she touches it. I take this as an indicator that it is just his shell; that his soul has returned to TAR. The Dragon still needs to meet his date at Shayol Ghul, so it follows that he is returned from TAR a la Birgette's route, healed and rejuvinated for the battle with the Dark One. Rand can only be whole again when this happens; lets face it he's a wreak, and it has to happen before he goes to Shayol Ghul.}

 

_{2. I think that how he plans to fight the Last Battle isnt how the Dark One is actualy playing the game. Refer back to some of RJs statements about the Last Battle about the Shadow is winning. I think Rand plans on breaking the seals and marching right on to Shayol Ghul, but like I said above, he's got a thing to do first. I think having to save Elayne and their babys will force him to come to Caemlyn where he will face Moridin to their mutual death leading to Rand's ultimate victory.}

 

_{3. I dont know, but we are running low on female Forsaken.}

 

_{4. Moridin will go where his daddy tells him to and he'll like it, lol. But seriously, he thinks he has been destined to face the Dragon throughout time and he would go to Caemlyn or anywhere else to see that ended.}

 

_{5. The big-time commander of the Shadow's forces is supposed to be Demodred. Ishamael and now Moridin has always been a philosopher; even the War of Power he may have led armies, but everything indicates he was never very good at it. Pluse, you know, dead at the Battle of Caemlyn.}

 

_{6. I think he is going to make a very emotional decision to save his babies when Elayne is in danger.}

 

_{7. For the rest, the Last Battle will unfold as it needs to. No one says the army is ever going to set one boot on the slopes of Shayol Gul. That battle is for Rand. The Last Battle will be fought by the people he trusts to fight it. He's the Dragon; he wont be in the trenches, he's got bigger fish to fry. He's going to be fightin his battles while Mat and Perrin and Egwene and everyone else will be fighting theirs. As for Moiraine not letting him go to Caemlyn, well...how's that ever worked for her?}

 

_{1. However, his blood will be on the rocks of Shayol Ghul which leads me to believe that he will die at Shayol Ghul.}

 

_{2. I think that after he breaks the seals, no one is going to let him leave right after that. There will be too much pressure on him to stay and I think even Elayne would tell him that.}

 

_{3. That still means that it probably wasn't Moridin. Even if he was controlling Moghedien and Cyndane, I don't think he would come to Caemlyn himself without some sort of strong urge, which he doesn't have.}

 

_{4. I agree, but I don't think Rand will go to Caemlyn so Moridin won't go.}

 

_{5. Sorry, I forgot about Demandred commanding the armies. Still Moridin is still the only one on the DO's side who can channel the TP and I don't think the DO would want him to away from Shayol Ghul.}

 

_{6. Elayne is not going to be at Caemlyn though so she won't be in danger. Plus, I think Elayne would tell him to go back to the Blight and Shayol Ghul.}

 

_{7. I think that he will listen more to Moiraine because he owes her everything and knows it well. He will be a lot more reasonable now. Plus, if he has to be at Shayol Ghul, he may not have time to go to Caemlyn.}

 

_{Anyways, we won't know until January 8, 2013. But it's still a good discussion topic. I await your response.}

 

1: We get the "Blood on the rocks" from prophecy, a prophecy which has been translated from Old Tounge and highly subjective becides. All that is required to fulfil the requirements of that phrophecy is for Rand to stumble and skin his knees when he gets there. Or cut himself shaving. Or have a bloody nose from the dry air; Rand started out infering this meant he will die at Shayol Ghul a long time ago and we've been on the same track ever since. Plus, this remains a fantasy series, there is nothing to keep Rand from dying at Caemlyn in the physical form, coming back in the metaphysical form from TAR and then "dying" again at Shayul Ghul whereapon he returns to TAR having saved the world from the Dark One. ...It seems I've heard a similar story before...somewhere...

 

2: He's the Dragon. What's more, he was raised in the Two Rivers. If he thinks its the right decision you'll have better luck telling the tides to stop changing before you'll convince him that he should leave Elayne and their children in danger. It's completly in character fro him to do this.

 

3/4: I say Caemlyn will be the showdown for Rand and Moridin, you dont think Rand will go, and you're right: Moridin wont go without Rand being there. Its impossible to come to terms on that one without a lot of other story elements falling into place, which we wont even get till the book comes out, so we'll have to leave it up in the air.

 

5: At this point, we've seen how mad Moridin is. Weather he is hearing the instruction of the Dark One in his head all the time now or just his own madness its debatable how much direct control the DO has over him. We've seen Moridin use the True Power outside of SG before (the balefire that caused the conection between them for one example was TP balefire). If this is where Moridin has chosen to make his big play against Rand I dont know if Daddy Dark One will mind too much.

 

6: I dont think the force exists that could keep Elayne away from her city when it is in danger. It's been foreshadowed enough throughout the series that she is so ashamed to be such a coward and that she had always dreamed of being the type of queen that would lead her army to victory at the head of the charge. I think this is where she'll get her chance. After all, it would have been 3 or 4 chapters at that point where she wont have needed to be rescued by someone. She'll be due lol.

 

7: Hard to say about Moiraine, that story arch will have to fall into place before we can call it. I'm going with their meeting (in my scenerieo) after Rand returns from TAR, rejuvinated and about to go to Shayul Ghul. After all, it is a little hard to say from the painting, but it at least appears that Moiraine is the woman in blue behind Rand on the cover (I believe Nynineve is in yellow) and they are all in the mouth of Shayul Ghul.

 

hey, I'm having fun

[RandA lThor]

_{I think that Rand will have to die at Shayol Ghul. I may be interpreting what Lurk is saying wrong (please correct me if I am), but I think you're saying that Rand will die at Caemlyn because of an Arhur/Camlann reference.}

 

_{1. The prophecy says that his blood will be on the rocks at Shayol Ghul, which I interpret to say that he will die yet, no opinon yet on rebirth. This means that he won't die in Caemlyn.}

_{2. Rand is going to be at the FoM and is going to break the seals tomorrow. After that, the last battle starts. I think that he will want to be at Shayol Ghul and at the Blight during the Last Battle, not at Caemlyn.}

_{3. When Elayne went on her trip to the Black Ajah to try and impersonate a Forsaken with the foxhead medallion, the Black Ajah person (forgot her name), thought she was the same Forsaken that was sent there before. This probably means that that Forsaken was a female. This means that it most likely is not Moridin who did all of this planning and he will probably not go to Caemlyn.}

_{4. Moridin is obsessed with the DO. I don't think he would leave Shayol Ghul or the Blight to go to Caemlyn in the Last Battle. He would want to be there with the DO when he wins(supposing he does).}

_{5. Moridin is Nae'blis and he will probably be commanding or helping the main armies at Shayol Ghul and the Blight.}

_{6. Rand knows that he can't risk other lives by not going to Shayol Ghul during the Last Battle and Caemlyn isn't going to be something done very fast.}

_{7. Rand enters Shayol Ghul as seen in the cover of AMoL, I don't think he would do that after tiring himself out fighting in Caemlyn. Even if he didn't fight, I don't think that he would spend time in Caemlyn and not fight.}

_{8. People such as Moiraine would stop him from going to Caemlyn. Moiraine spent her entire life finding and preparing him for this, I don't think she wants him to go somewhere else.}

_{9. He is needed more at Shayol Ghul then at caemlyn, more forces there.}

_{10. I cannot imagine a scene in where Rand is at Caemlyn while everyone else is fighting in the Blight in the Last Battle.}

 

_{1. Egwene's dream complicates things, makes the story less straightforward, a halmark of the WoT. She sees a body on a beir that looks like Rand which breaks apart when she touches it. I take this as an indicator that it is just his shell; that his soul has returned to TAR. The Dragon still needs to meet his date at Shayol Ghul, so it follows that he is returned from TAR a la Birgette's route, healed and rejuvinated for the battle with the Dark One. Rand can only be whole again when this happens; lets face it he's a wreak, and it has to happen before he goes to Shayol Ghul.}

 

_{2. I think that how he plans to fight the Last Battle isnt how the Dark One is actualy playing the game. Refer back to some of RJs statements about the Last Battle about the Shadow is winning. I think Rand plans on breaking the seals and marching right on to Shayol Ghul, but like I said above, he's got a thing to do first. I think having to save Elayne and their babys will force him to come to Caemlyn where he will face Moridin to their mutual death leading to Rand's ultimate victory.}

 

_{3. I dont know, but we are running low on female Forsaken.}

 

_{4. Moridin will go where his daddy tells him to and he'll like it, lol. But seriously, he thinks he has been destined to face the Dragon throughout time and he would go to Caemlyn or anywhere else to see that ended.}

 

_{5. The big-time commander of the Shadow's forces is supposed to be Demodred. Ishamael and now Moridin has always been a philosopher; even the War of Power he may have led armies, but everything indicates he was never very good at it. Pluse, you know, dead at the Battle of Caemlyn.}

 

_{6. I think he is going to make a very emotional decision to save his babies when Elayne is in danger.}

 

_{7. For the rest, the Last Battle will unfold as it needs to. No one says the army is ever going to set one boot on the slopes of Shayol Gul. That battle is for Rand. The Last Battle will be fought by the people he trusts to fight it. He's the Dragon; he wont be in the trenches, he's got bigger fish to fry. He's going to be fightin his battles while Mat and Perrin and Egwene and everyone else will be fighting theirs. As for Moiraine not letting him go to Caemlyn, well...how's that ever worked for her?}

 

_{1. However, his blood will be on the rocks of Shayol Ghul which leads me to believe that he will die at Shayol Ghul.}

 

_{2. I think that after he breaks the seals, no one is going to let him leave right after that. There will be too much pressure on him to stay and I think even Elayne would tell him that.}

 

_{3. That still means that it probably wasn't Moridin. Even if he was controlling Moghedien and Cyndane, I don't think he would come to Caemlyn himself without some sort of strong urge, which he doesn't have.}

 

_{4. I agree, but I don't think Rand will go to Caemlyn so Moridin won't go.}

 

_{5. Sorry, I forgot about Demandred commanding the armies. Still Moridin is still the only one on the DO's side who can channel the TP and I don't think the DO would want him to away from Shayol Ghul.}

 

_{6. Elayne is not going to be at Caemlyn though so she won't be in danger. Plus, I think Elayne would tell him to go back to the Blight and Shayol Ghul.}

 

_{7. I think that he will listen more to Moiraine because he owes her everything and knows it well. He will be a lot more reasonable now. Plus, if he has to be at Shayol Ghul, he may not have time to go to Caemlyn.}

 

_{Anyways, we won't know until January 8, 2013. But it's still a good discussion topic. I await your response.}

 

1: We get the "Blood on the rocks" from prophecy, a prophecy which has been translated from Old Tounge and highly subjective becides. All that is required to fulfil the requirements of that phrophecy is for Rand to stumble and skin his knees when he gets there. Or cut himself shaving. Or have a bloody nose from the dry air; Rand started out infering this meant he will die at Shayol Ghul a long time ago and we've been on the same track ever since. Plus, this remains a fantasy series, there is nothing to keep Rand from dying at Caemlyn in the physical form, coming back in the metaphysical form from TAR and then "dying" again at Shayul Ghul whereapon he returns to TAR having saved the world from the Dark One. ...It seems I've heard a similar story before...somewhere...

 

2: He's the Dragon. What's more, he was raised in the Two Rivers. If he thinks its the right decision you'll have better luck telling the tides to stop changing before you'll convince him that he should leave Elayne and their children in danger. It's completly in character fro him to do this.

 

3/4: I say Caemlyn will be the showdown for Rand and Moridin, you dont think Rand will go, and you're right: Moridin wont go without Rand being there. Its impossible to come to terms on that one without a lot of other story elements falling into place, which we wont even get till the book comes out, so we'll have to leave it up in the air.

 

5: At this point, we've seen how mad Moridin is. Weather he is hearing the instruction of the Dark One in his head all the time now or just his own madness its debatable how much direct control the DO has over him. We've seen Moridin use the True Power outside of SG before (the balefire that caused the conection between them for one example was TP balefire). If this is where Moridin has chosen to make his big play against Rand I dont know if Daddy Dark One will mind too much.

 

6: I dont think the force exists that could keep Elayne away from her city when it is in danger. It's been foreshadowed enough throughout the series that she is so ashamed to be such a coward and that she had always dreamed of being the type of queen that would lead her army to victory at the head of the charge. I think this is where she'll get her chance. After all, it would have been 3 or 4 chapters at that point where she wont have needed to be rescued by someone. She'll be due lol.

 

7: Hard to say about Moiraine, that story arch will have to fall into place before we can call it. I'm going with their meeting (in my scenerieo) after Rand returns from TAR, rejuvinated and about to go to Shayul Ghul. After all, it is a little hard to say from the painting, but it at least appears that Moiraine is the woman in blue behind Rand on the cover (I believe Nynineve is in yellow) and they are all in the mouth of Shayul Ghul.

 

hey, I'm having fun

 

Yeah, I'm having fun too.

 

1. It is possible that Rand will just skin his knee, but I think that after all this build up in the book about his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, I don't think they will make it that minor.

 

2. You're right, he is the Dragon, but that also means he has a lot of responsiblity. Also, I don't think that he would want to break the seals against everyone's will and then just leave them to fight themselves. Again, I think that even Elayne will make him go back. Besides, she doesn't need that much help. If Mat and the whole Band was there with dragons, plus Kin, plus Elayne's armies, they could stop them.

 

3/4. True, we can leave that one until the book comes out.

 

5. I think that DO will mind if it will throw a wrinkle in his little plans to get out. The TP is an extremely powerful tool and the DO can definitely use that against the forces of the Light.

 

6. Keep in mind that she can also lead the armies to the Blight so she will get the same sense of daring. Also, even if Elayne does go, the war won't need Rand. They have the Kin, the Band of the Red Hand (possibly with mat), Andor's armies, Cairhein's armies. This will most likely be enough. There is a factor of Black Tower involvement. The Black Tower may help or hurt Caemlyn. If Logain gets to the Black Tower in time and kills the people who are bad with help then the BT can help in the Caemlyn fight. This is actually the main reason (I think) that Rand would even think about going to Caemlyn. They might need him to shut down Taim and his cronies.

 

7. I just have this wierd feeling that Moiraine will see Rand before he dies. No proof, just a feeling. Still, this one we have to wait for the book.

[TristanWebb]

The dragons can't be used against a force inside the city without destroying it though.

[Durinax]

the dragons could be seized by now, the only functional ones where on the walls I believe

[RandA lThor]

The dragons can't be used against a force inside the city without destroying it though.

 

True, but if we can isolate Trollocs and civilians, we can let loose the dragons on them. They would rather destroy parts of the city then lose it to Trollocs. I think it is possible for the city to be broken after the Battle of Caemlyn.

[Maleshub]

Stupid remark maybe, but I don't remember reading on screen that Rand knows he's going to be a daddy...

 

I am sure that Min told him.

 

One of the weakest criticisms of Elayne, and she isn't one of my favorite, is that she doesn't bother to tell Rand about his babies. But we know that she doesn't have to since Min hardly leaves Rand and probably told him.

[TheLagomorph]

The dragons can't be used against a force inside the city without destroying it though.

 

This depends on the nature of the "spreading shot" they were talking about. Cannons have been (and are) used as giant shotguns as well. There were different ammo types, even specialized ones for damaging sails and rigging.

 

Regarding the rescue of Caemlyn I expect that everyone at the FoM will get to hear after the seals are smashed to create that nice sense of urgency, chaos and panic. All the leaders wanting to go back to their strongholds, things falling apart, the centre cannot hold. The blood-dimmed tide and that stuff. Can't wait till the the 8th!

[David Selig]

Stupid remark maybe, but I don't remember reading on screen that Rand knows he's going to be a daddy...

 

I am sure that Min told him.

 

One of the weakest criticisms of Elayne, and she isn't one of my favorite, is that she doesn't bother to tell Rand about his babies. But we know that she doesn't have to since Min hardly leaves Rand and probably told him.

I am pretty sure Min hasn't told Rand this (probably because she got so drunk that night in Caemlyn that she forgot), otherwise it makes no sense that he hasn't reflected on it once in his PoV. It's a pretty big deal.

 

Of course, in typical WoT fashion, Elayne and Avi probably assume Min has already told him so they haven't bothered to. Miscommunication FTW! ;)

[Maleshub]

Stupid remark maybe, but I don't remember reading on screen that Rand knows he's going to be a daddy...

 

I am sure that Min told him.

 

One of the weakest criticisms of Elayne, and she isn't one of my favorite, is that she doesn't bother to tell Rand about his babies. But we know that she doesn't have to since Min hardly leaves Rand and probably told him.

I am pretty sure Min hasn't told Rand this (probably because she got so drunk that night in Caemlyn that she forgot), otherwise it makes no sense that he hasn't reflected on it once in his PoV. It's a pretty big deal.

 

Of course, in typical WoT fashion, Elayne and Avi probably assume Min has already told him so they haven't bothered to. Miscommunication FTW! ;)

 

But before Min, Aviendha, and Birgitte got drunk, Min was wondering if she would tell Aviendha about having Rand's babies. And then we know that she told her. Regardless, Min's vision came when she wasn't drunk. Getting drunk an hour after seeing that vision would not make her forget it. Take into account Nynaeve's movements between the WT and Rand's camp, and she probably carried news of Elayne's health to Min, reminding her of the pregnancy and vision.

 

All of it is assumption; but I think that chances that Min told Rand are more than those of her not telling him.