The Creator, the Dark One, and the Dragon

[bbarrett90]

Well, it's obvious that the link is fundamentally different than circles formed with the OP. The "link" between rand and moridin seems to be more closely related to a warder bond. So maybe that's what BS meant, rand and moridin arent linked, they're bonded, or something similar to it. they aren't sharing power, (unless you believe rand draws on the TP through moridin)

 

one thing that i think could be possible is that their minds are linked, not their souls. This could explain how rand is able to enter into Moridin's dream. Moridin may have realized this and created the dream with Mierin, maybe even let the real Mierin into it so it would seem closer to reality, then drew rand to it in order to affect him in some way. Moridin might understand more of what happened between him and rand with the DO's help, and has learned how to use it to his advantage.

 

now, if they're souls became linked somehow, it would make things real interesting. It could potentially give the DO a route to the soul of the CotL (through moridin's soul), and conversely, it could give rand a route to the DO. So it might have the potential to destroy rand, but at the same time, it could be the key to his victory. This too could explain the dreams.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I didn't read it like that, but you may still have a point.

 

"Link" is the term given by the fanbase to describe Rand and Moridin's "bond" or unique connection, or however you want to phrase it. So I read this as do not assume that Rand and Moridin are connected like this.

 

I don't think he ever meant "linked" as in a circle, since it was never even possible. Men cannot link by themselves, a woman is needed to link with. THat is why Rand never linked with Asmodean, Asmodean says it would be easier to teach if they were, but Lanfear wouldn't do it, and Rand wasn't willing to ask Moiraine or Egwene.

 

The soul link was always the point in question, I thought you meant that they could possibly not be linked that way, thus I supplied the quote.

 

But no, they are not linked like in a circle.

[bbarrett90]

ahh yea, i see that now. i'm pretty tired atm so my logic circuits aren't all here. but yes, my point still remains the same, if there is a connection, it could either be of the mind, or of the soul. either would have interesting consequences, and i look forward to seeing it played out!

[jsbrads]

Remember that balefire is a weave (albeit a destructive one!), not a distinct power. The OP is neutral; it can be put to positive or negative uses. Balefire is detructive, but it has positive uses in destroying Shadowspawn, and in removing the Chosen from the DO's reach. Not sure if that's also true of the TP..

 

Yes, Rand wove balefire from the TP to free himself from the dom band, and Moridin did as well when he and Rand met in SL (ACoS41). And that was interesting.. we have balefire from the OP meeting that from the TP. Was Moridin trying to 'cancel out' Rand? If so, he failed, and linked instead!

 

Rand wove spears of fire to destroy the domination band, then got up turned around and balefired the two women who had the bracelets

[FarShainMael]

Was it TP balefire?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Was it TP balefire?

 

I don't think it states it specifically, but yeah, it did seem to be. There was no switch to Saidin.

[FarShainMael]

That was my impression also.

 

On balance, I don't think Moridin was trying to link or bond. He'd grabbed Rand's arm to help him out of a hole in SL. Rand is still up to his waist in that hole, Moridin gripping his arm, when Mashadar attacks, and Rand uses his free hand to weave balefire. He is aware of Moridin sending a bar of 'pale solid fire' from the hand 'that was not clasping his'. The beams touch, and the two men seem to connect in someway. It's difficult to see how Moridin could have arranged this, and it's a bit chancy to turn up awaiting an opportunity.

[bbarrett90]

I agree, i dont think moridin meant to do anything. I need to go back and re-read that section, i don't remember many of the finer details; unfortunately i dont have the book where i am. was it ever stated that moridin felt the same shock and dizziness that rand felt after the beams touched? I think i remember it saying that moridin was gone when rand finally came to, so it would seem that we don't know for sure.

[FarShainMael]

Rand sees (with double vision!) the other man holding his head. The man says he doesn't know what happened but tells Rand to run for his life. So yes, they were both affected. The two separate; Rand sees Liah and balefires her to save her from Mashadar; but Sammael does not escape it, apparently.

 

(Feeling too lazy to get the book from upstairs, so here's the EncWoT summary:

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/acos/ch41.html )

[fikkie77]

I have a completely different issue about the Creator, the Dragon and the Dark One.

Ishy somewhere states that the Dragon has fought alongside the Shadow. This has also been confirmed by RJ himself.

How can this be without ripping the Pattern to threads?

I wondered today whether it might have been the end of the First Age: the Dark One facilitating the discovery of channeling, so the creation of the Bore would become possible almost an Age later. This wandering of my mind would include the fabled Tamyrlin to be the Dragon on the side of the Dark One. Feeling that same energy as Mierin and Beidomon did, but not yet capable of creating the Bore. Instead he was capable of tapping into another energy, more widely available (Saidin; I'm assuming the Dragon always being male).

 

Is this a possible scenario? (not saying this is how RJ thought it to be, as we just don't know).

The reason I would go for this Age having a Dark Dragon, is because a Second or Third Age Dark Dragon would in fact rip the Pattern into threads. As would any extremely strong and capable (with the OP) Dragon. Only a Dark Dragon that cannot channel, can channel but doesn't know or doesn't have enough knowledge or experience in channeling yet isn't destructive enough to destroy the Pattern.

 

Before anyone states that prison of the DO would still be whole: the DO does seem to have had a little influence on the world, as he seemed to be able to leak some of his True Power into the world, enough to make Mierin and Beidomon sense that Power so that would tap into that Power and create the Bore.

[Suttree]

I have a completely different issue about the Creator, the Dragon and the Dark One.

Ishy somewhere states that the Dragon has fought alongside the Shadow. This has also been confirmed by RJ himself.

How can this be without ripping the Pattern to threads?

 

Interview: Nov 1st, 1998

SciFi.com Chat (Verbatim)

 

Rothaar

When Rand takes Verin and the others through a Portal Stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

 

Robert Jordan

There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight The Dark One. It's never simple.

[fikkie77]

That's something else RJ says there. He's talking about Rand losing.

I'm talking about The Dragon choosing the side of the Dark One.

[Suttree]

That's something else RJ says there. He's talking about Rand losing.

I'm talking about The Dragon choosing the side of the Dark One.

 

You wouldn't call that a partial victory and stopping the DR from doing what he was born to do if he is turned to the DO? If he turns him but doesn't win the ultimate victory that would fall under "degrees of victory".

[fikkie77]

A Dragon who fails his task is less destructive than a Dragon who aids the adversary.

 

If Lews Therin Telamon had turned, the War of Shadow would have been utterly lost (it was almost already) and LTT and Ishy would have teamed up to destroy the Pattern. If Rand had turned (especially just before VoG) he would indeed have destroyed the Pattern by drawing as much Saidin as was possible through the CK als balefired the world out of existence.

[Suttree]

A Dragon who fails his task is less destructive than a Dragon who aids the adversary.

 

If Lews Therin Telamon had turned, the War of Shadow would have been utterly lost (it was almost already) and LTT and Ishy would have teamed up to destroy the Pattern. If Rand had turned (especially just before VoG) he would indeed have destroyed the Pattern by drawing as much Saidin as was possible through the CK als balefired the world out of existence.

 

Shrug. Not sure what you are arguing here? Being turned is one way to fail in his task. We know it has happened and the answer I provided fits, maybe not in the two scenarios you present but there are far more ages beyond that which you admit in your first post. Also what if LTT had turned at the start of the war, or Rand earlier in the story? There is no way to be certain that would result in an ultimate victory for the DO. You can't just pick the two most extreme scenarios we know about and say if the CoL had been turned at that very moment he would have destroyed the pattern. I mean that goes without saying.

 

Btw RJ has told us what happens and it fits with the other quote I provided.

 

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Tim Kington reporting

 

Q: (inaudible)

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

[Terez]

He probably gets killed before he can do any real damage. I'm assuming he doesn't get turned (or choose the Shadow, assuming that ever happens) in the Age where the Bore must be sealed, unless he gets turned, killed, and then resurrected Shadow-free.

[fikkie77]

A Dragon who fails his task is less destructive than a Dragon who aids the adversary.

 

If Lews Therin Telamon had turned, the War of Shadow would have been utterly lost (it was almost already) and LTT and Ishy would have teamed up to destroy the Pattern. If Rand had turned (especially just before VoG) he would indeed have destroyed the Pattern by drawing as much Saidin as was possible through the CK als balefired the world out of existence.

 

Shrug. Not sure what you are arguing here? Being turned is one way to fail in his task. We know it has happened and the answer I provided fits, maybe not in the two scenarios you present but there are far more ages beyond that which you admit in your first post. Also what if LTT had turned at the start of the war, or Rand earlier in the story? There is no way to be certain that would result in an ultimate victory for the DO. You can't just pick the two most extreme scenarios we know about and say if the CoL had been turned at that very moment he would have destroyed the pattern. I mean that goes without saying.

 

Btw RJ has told us what happens and it fits with the other quote I provided.

 

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Tim Kington reporting

 

Q: (inaudible)

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

RJ said the CoL has turned and the result was a draw. I'm saying it couldn't have been in 2nd or 3rd Ages as in those Ages such a turn would have resulted in the ultimate victory for the Shadow.

He probably gets killed before he can do any real damage. I'm assuming he doesn't get turned (or choose the Shadow, assuming that ever happens) in the Age where the Bore must be sealed, unless he gets turned, killed, and then resurrected Shadow-free.

In the alternate worlds Rand saw in the Portal Stone accidents he got killed before coming to his destiny for the Light. A turning in the 3rd Age only leads to utter disaster, because of the weak state of the Pattern, the weak state of the DO's Prison and huge weapons for the Dragon that could be used for evil (Choedan Kal).

 

Ishy knew this and tried to do an early turning, because in those days Rand was more easily manipulated (but not as easy as Ishy thought). And I'm certain they would still have found the access key in Rhuidean. Asmo was searching for it there: the Shadow knew it had to be there.

[Suttree]

RJ said the CoL has turned and the result was a draw. I'm saying it couldn't have been in 2nd or 3rd Ages as in those Ages such a turn would have resulted in the ultimate victory for the Shadow.

 

Ok, that wasn't clear from your first post where you just asked how it could happen in general.

 

You have a a point but I would be shocked if it hasn't happened before. We also know that..

 

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

[baalsmistress]

The dragon turning would almost certainly have been in the 2nd or 3rd ages. Just on a different turning of the wheel.

 

I've always pictured the relationship between the creator and the dark one in the same vein as Tolkien's Illuvatar and Melkior or the christian god/satan or any one of the other similar tales throughout religion and fantasy. Where the dark one is a construct of the creator, is necessary for the creator's vision to be fully fulfilled, and the dark one's greatest ambition is to escape from the cycle of pre-determination that the creator has trapped him in.

 

In essence, the prison the dark one wants to escape, is the whole of reality. He's perfectly prepared to destroy the pattern, end the creation entirely, IF AND ONLY IF, he can escape the personal consequences of destroying it.

 

The "draw" that the dark one achieves by turning the dragon then would be gaining the power to destroy creation, but failing to find a way to survive that destruction.

[Sephie913]

The dragon turning would almost certainly have been in the 2nd or 3rd ages. Just on a different turning of the wheel.

 

I've always pictured the relationship between the creator and the dark one in the same vein as Tolkien's Illuvatar and Melkior or the christian god/satan or any one of the other similar tales throughout religion and fantasy. Where the dark one is a construct of the creator, is necessary for the creator's vision to be fully fulfilled, and the dark one's greatest ambition is to escape from the cycle of pre-determination that the creator has trapped him in.

 

In essence, the prison the dark one wants to escape, is the whole of reality. He's perfectly prepared to destroy the pattern, end the creation entirely, IF AND ONLY IF, he can escape the personal consequences of destroying it.

 

The "draw" that the dark one achieves by turning the dragon then would be gaining the power to destroy creation, but failing to find a way to survive that destruction.

 

Well said.

 

Another draw would be: Rand turns c. book 5, let's say. (Lanfear blackmails him end of FoH. No Moiraine, and Rand falls every time.)

 

Demandred has no motive to work with DO (besides already having the stigma) and neither does Sammael.

 

The Forsaken no longer have an enemy holding them together, so they fracture and TG is all Forsaken warring.

 

OR

 

After Rand turns, they discover that DO isn't going to give them earthly riches, but means to destroy the pattern. They aren't going to sit and take that, are they? NO, they want the earthly rewards. So several Forsaken become leaders of Light forces. (without letting the world know they are who they are, of course.)

 

There. Rand turned, and no pattern-ripping. Or he's killed early, like others have said. In any case, it works.

[Mr Ares]

I've always pictured the relationship between the creator and the dark one in the same vein as Tolkien's Illuvatar and Melkior or the christian god/satan or any one of the other similar tales throughout religion and fantasy. Where the dark one is a construct of the creator, is necessary for the creator's vision to be fully fulfilled, and the dark one's greatest ambition is to escape from the cycle of pre-determination that the creator has trapped him in.

RJ always described the relationship between Shai'tan and the Creator as one of equals, yet opposites. Shai'tan is not a construct of the Creator.

[fikkie77]

I've always pictured the relationship between the creator and the dark one in the same vein as Tolkien's Illuvatar and Melkior or the christian god/satan or any one of the other similar tales throughout religion and fantasy. Where the dark one is a construct of the creator, is necessary for the creator's vision to be fully fulfilled, and the dark one's greatest ambition is to escape from the cycle of pre-determination that the creator has trapped him in.

RJ always described the relationship between Shai'tan and the Creator as one of equals, yet opposites. Shai'tan is not a construct of the Creator.

Creator vd Dark One is comparable with Preservation vd Ruin in Mistborn. In both worlds the creative being can't create without de destructive being and vice versa. Both beings are equal.

A huge difference from Middle Earth or the Biblical adversaries.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Just if you wanted the quote on this.

INTERVIEW: Jun 26th, 1996

Compuserve Chat (Verbatim)

 

MARTIN REZNICK

How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator...carrying on the theme, the ying yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books. It's somewhat Manichean i know, but I think it works.