Sul'dam Severing

[jsbrads]

Do we know if it is possible for the a'dam to capture someone already in a link? (that is, is it strong enough to overwhelm a standard link). If not, just keep everyone in danger in a link at all times, and when you free damane get them into links...

Do we know if it is possible for the a'dam to capture someone already in a link? (that is, is it strong enough to overwhelm a standard link). If not, just keep everyone in danger in a link at all times, and when you free damane get them into links...

 

Obviously your first idea is not practical and may not work anyway, but also how can we know if someone is in danger... but you last part of getting damane into links, makes not sense, they would never voluntarily join a link. during war time AS should kill Suldam and pick up the bracelets and add the damane to their ranks until the battle is over

[Edynol]

Wasn't it mentioned in one of the last books that the Seanchan were teaching the Damane to link? If so, then putting and a'dam on someone already linked would still work the same. Though I might be mistaken.

[Byzantine279]

No, damane cannot link due to the nature of the a'dam.

 

Why would it not be pratical to keep people linked? Once a link is formed it does not dissolve until the leader dissolves it or those in it die, regardless of location, and status of them (meaning they can be asleep and still be linked).

[Suttree]

I knew this was out there somewhere...

 

Knife of Dreams tour San Jose, CA 28 October 2005 - Frenzy reporting

 

Frenzy: Can a person who hasn't actively channeled yet be severed or stilled?

RJ: (paraphrased) "No, you have to have something to take away something, so a person has to have an active connection to the Source to be able to have it cut."

 

Sul'dam who have not made the conscious effort to "step over" to the source can not be severed. They have the potential but it is not active yet. Case closed.

 

Not so fast. Since they operated a terangreal, and were active even thru proxy they may be able to be severed

 

Nope. You are forgetting the earlier quote.

 

Interview: Sep 3rd, 2005

 

DragonCon Report - Emma (Verbatim)

Question

 

Since sul'dam have abilities normally associated with channelers only, do they also slow?

Robert Jordan

 

No, not unless they actually begin to channel. Slowing is a function of actually channeling. If you have the ability to learn, and you never learn to channel, you are not going to slow, you will age at a normal fashion. Sul'dam are women who can learn and as they develop the affinity, as they have been doing this for a little while, they begin to slide toward the ability to channel, but they never step over. I believe I have someone say that one of these women felt almost as if she should be able to channel, but not quite. They are getting closer and closer to the brink but they will never step over without conscious effort.

 

If they have not made the conscious effort to step over there is nothing to sever.

[csnyder]

I've dropped my hypothesis now that we have sufficient evidence against it. However, what is interesting is when Egwene or one of the Super Girls get the a'dam on the sul'dam (TGH scene, need to get my book back from a friend to review). That is, they can exert control over the sul'dam despite her learner-status; what kind of functionality is this supposed to serve? It seems rather contradictory - as is Siuan and Leane being able to sense the Source at a distance through Moghedien, although that was most probably a plot-device.

[Edynol]

That was to show that when one was is severed, there is still something there linking them the OP, just there contact as been severed. Like imagine there's a fire near by, but you are locked in a cage. You can still feel the heat from the fire, but you can't touch it or do anything with it.

[csnyder]

I understand that, however, what I mean is that their ability to channel has effectively been severed making them in a channeling-sense worse off than sul'dam. That being said, despite the link with the OP existing in some form, they cannot exert control over Moggy whereas sul'dam can despite lacking that basic/initial connection with the source. Sul'dam, ultimately, are little more than the regular population (just being on the brink) and completely lack that link with with OP entirely (without realizing their potential). It is here where the contradiction lies.

[Edynol]

Yeah. I think it is easier to say that while sul'dam do have a connection with the OP, they have yet to establish a solid link to it, which can only be achieve with conscious effort or if you have the spark, which they do not. I mean, imagine a river, on one side is two people, on the other side the OP. Person A uses the large bridge to get to the power, person B uses a small rope tied to a damane to access it. A huge flood comes through and severs person A, she can't get to her power or do anything with it. But while the bridge is destroyed and washed away, the tiny little rope will still be there attached to the damane. Think about the flood of water as the severing. The person who channels has a bridge leading the OP, the Sul'dam only has a little rope tied to a damane.

[Vardar]

Yeah this has come up a number of times over the years. If a suldam has not actively taken that conscious step to channel, I don't see how their can be anything to sever...

Interview: Sep 3rd, 2005 DragonCon Report - Emma (Verbatim) Question Since sul'dam have abilities normally associated with channelers only, do they also slow? Robert Jordan No, not unless they actually begin to channel. Slowing is a function of actually channeling. If you have the ability to learn, and you never learn to channel, you are not going to slow, you will age at a normal fashion. Sul'dam are women who can learn and as they develop the affinity, as they have been doing this for a little while, they begin to slide toward the ability to channel, but they never step over. I believe I have someone say that one of these women felt almost as if she should be able to channel, but not quite. They are getting closer and closer to the brink but they will never step over without conscious effort.

 

Aviendha shielded them. If they can be shielded, they can be severed, since severing is just an altered form of shielding.

[Suttree]

Yeah this has come up a number of times over the years. If a suldam has not actively taken that conscious step to channel, I don't see how their can be anything to sever...

Interview: Sep 3rd, 2005 DragonCon Report - Emma (Verbatim) Question Since sul'dam have abilities normally associated with channelers only, do they also slow? Robert Jordan No, not unless they actually begin to channel. Slowing is a function of actually channeling. If you have the ability to learn, and you never learn to channel, you are not going to slow, you will age at a normal fashion. Sul'dam are women who can learn and as they develop the affinity, as they have been doing this for a little while, they begin to slide toward the ability to channel, but they never step over. I believe I have someone say that one of these women felt almost as if she should be able to channel, but not quite. They are getting closer and closer to the brink but they will never step over without conscious effort.

 

Aviendha shielded them. If they can be shielded, they can be severed, since severing is just an altered form of shielding.

 

 

Not sure why you think the two are related at all. A shield exists as a barrier around an entire person while stilling cuts the connection. In addition when doing so Avi noticed something different about the Suldam. Unless a Suldam has taken that active step there is nothing to cut. Per RJ,

 

Knife of Dreams tour San Jose, CA 28 October 2005 - Frenzy reporting

 

Frenzy: Can a person who hasn't actively channeled yet be severed or stilled?

RJ: (paraphrased) "No, you have to have something to take away something, so a person has to have an active connection to the Source to be able to have it cut."

 

When you put the two quotes together there really is no other way to look at it.

[Vardar]

Not sure why you think the two are related at all. A shield exists as a barrier around an entire person while stilling cuts the connection. In addition when doing so Avi noticed something different about the Suldam. Unless a Suldam has taken that active step there is nothing to cut. Per RJ,

 

Hmm I see the quote now, but based on the descriptions of severing that we've had appear in the books, it's always described as a shield, with a sharper edge. Nyneave and Rand both used that sort of language. That's what severing is, a shield. Now why RJ said that, I'm not sure. He's also the one who described severing as a shield but with a sharper edge, and the one who said Advenidha shielded two suldams. So take it for what you will.

[yoniy0]

Vardarmus, didn't Rand "crush" the little spots that represented those AS he severed? As opposed to slicing something?

Regardless, the fact that the weave for a Shield can be laid on someone doesn't mean that it has any effect.

[Vardar]

Vardarmus, didn't Rand "crush" the little spots that represented those AS he severed? As opposed to slicing something? Regardless, the fact that the weave for a Shield can be laid on someone doesn't mean that it has any effect.

 

I thought he sliced some too, after he crushed the few. (Or was it when he was fighting against Lanfear trying to shield him, and he said this shield felt different, I really wish my Ipad was up and running so I could pull exact quotes)

 

Can you shield someone who can't channel? Elyas said they tried to gentle him right, but nothing happened (Besides him getting pissed off). If you're shielding, you're cutting off from the source, Aviendha shielded Suldam, so she cut them off from the source.

 

I respect the RJ quote of course, but it just seems to me he made a mistake. I mean, it's pretty obvious that stilling is done via a modified shield, and we have record of a suldam being shielded. It wouldn't be the first example of an inconsistency an author has made.

[Edynol]

It is different. Think of the A'dam as the sul'dam's link to the source, the source being the damane. You can shield her, and she can't access the 'source'. If you destroy the a'dam, that would be like severing. but the sul'dam themselves, they cannot be severed. You put a shield on one without a damane, they wouldn't even notice anything.

[csnyder]

By no means do I mean to say that severing and shielding are the same, but as far as removing the ability of a sul'dam to control a damane goes, I believe it is possible. If a sul'dam is shielded, I assume any connection (specifically, the connection from the brink that appears to be the necessary requirement for sul'damhood) is effectively-speaking severed and thusly disables her control over her damane (which is the forcing/torture ability that Siuan and Leane also lack post-Severing). As it stands, the a'dam only allows sul'dam to control her damane through sheer threat (not unlike Pavlov's dogs), not augmenting it through a link; however, if the leash holder were to be someone with the OP is there any evidence of it augmenting the Link in any way, or for that matter any additional abilities regular sul'dam lack (I'd research it myself, but I don't have The Great Hunt anymore)?

 

And in response to Edynol's statement above, I agree with most of it except that I believe the sul'dam would notice something. The fact that she can no longer control her damane. Unfortunately, the damane have been trained to a point that they would react instinctively (and in-tune with their sul'dam's expectations) no matter that loss of connection from their sul'dam.

[Edynol]

And in response to Edynol's statement above, I agree with most of it except that I believe the sul'dam would notice something. The fact that she can no longer control her damane. Unfortunately, the damane have been trained to a point that they would react instinctively (and in-tune with their sul'dam's expectations) no matter that loss of connection from their sul'dam.

 

Think you read me wrong. I said a sul'dam that is not linked to a damane probably wouldn't notice.

[jsbrads]

Thanks to Isle of Man saying "case closed" now we know the answer.

 

for those who aren't part of his cult :P I would like to argue a little more:

It is clear from Nynaeve's healing of the severed that there is a structure in the mind that needs to be whole. And perhaps this structure is large at birth or puberty in those whose have the spark, but that it may be very thin and unable to support any channeling in those with the ability to learn, hence they are essentially the same with the one caveat that one needs some excercise. It is very clear that trained suldam are no different physiologically than their peers the damane or AS, adam work on them, and they can channel should they choose to. Note: even Nynaeve's teacher, the prior wisdom did not slow significantly or at all, because slowing and channeling are not the same.

 

shielding a suldam would prevent her from channeling but it would not prevent the damane from channeling because a shield which blocks her off from the one source does not break her control over her partner. There is no weave to date and there may never be a weave which will break the connection between suldam and damane (let's leave Rand and TP out of this discussion) In this the Adam may be different from a circle, once a circle is formed, nothing can stop it, you can't shield the individual members to overcome it, you need to shield the leader, it seems in the adam circle is different, but it isn't, merely your perspective must change, the damane is the leader of the circle and the suldam is operating thru the inside of her mind. of course the damane does not draw the power thru the suldam, it is a modified link, in which only the damane provides the power.

 

Additional proof that suldam can control damane while shielded is that Rand could push against the shields of the AS in Dumai's wells.

It seems clear from rand in dumai wells and nynaeve in Tarabon, that someone can be severed, nynaeve believed that she would have severed Moggie had her blade of spirit had not dulled at the last moment, and Rand did sever the AS who held his shield, but it unclear how did it as it seems that he crushed their spirit weaves which were shielding him, but perhaps we can explain that a weave of spirit is different than other weaves. Nynaeve healed Siuan and Leane with weaves of spirit, perhaps that part of the mind is formed of pure spirit and when it is conducting only spirit, the flowing spirit and the conduit of spirit share an identity, the flow can stop, but if the flow is cut it breaks the conduit as well, and since there is no distance, when Rand crushed their weaves, he ripped their conduits as well. Nynaeve did not have enough strength to destroy the thick conduit of Moggie's, so she kept pushing until the flow stopped, but she did not succeed in cutting the whole flow as it was.

 

Severing I always considered different, it was more like a surgery, the circle of AS don't force a flow spirit into the person and then cut it, but they use their greater strength to contrict their power to a point on the conduit, severing the accused.

[Vardar]

Nynaeve used more than spirit to heal severing.

 

There's actually no proof that a suldam can control channeling while shielded. Giving that being shielded is the same as being severed, except temporary, it would suggest that they can't control their partners chanelling while shielded.

 

I still stand by my belief that RJ made a mistake in either his statement, or in the books. Severing on purpose (Not accidental) is done via a modified shield (from the book) therefore if someone can be shielded (From the book) they can be severed.

[csnyder]

Edynol - I did misread your statement. We are on the same page then.

 

jsbrads - Although there may be some discrepencies, I think it is safe to say that sul'dam cannot be severed; however, they can be rendered useless through shielding (of which there are instances of it occuring throughout the series). The fact is that the sul'dam's control is very superficial in terms of actually controlling the damane. I could be picturing the control incorrectly, but as sul'dam cannot be apart of any sort of link (because they cannot channel/touch the TS + I've come to the conclusion through being proven wrong many a time over that sul'dam DO NOT augment any sort of link by adding OP strength to it) they have to resort through blunt behavioral control - many a times have we seen sul'dam/the damane themselves disappointed in the results of their attacks (TPoD comes to mind, although other factors were there the reactions of both parties did seem to have a ring of usuality to the situation).

 

The only thing a sul'dam experiences when collared are these behavioral control mechanisms (making one feel like they had been covered in poison ivy or other uncomfortable situations), this is why we see the sul'dam who collars Egwene initially/immediately portray her control on Egwene and get her to obey her every command. If the one leashing the sul'dam were to force the sul'dam to use the OP I believe the sul'dam would be unable to do anything due to the psychological block all sul'dam tend to have...OTHERWISE we would have seen the collared sul'dam plan implemented sooner.

 

This nears speculation, but I would assume shielding the sul'dam cuts off the ability to use the a'dam in this way - obviously, the ability to learn/be a sparker enables usage of the a'dam bracelet (otherwise the regular human beings tested on the ter'angreal would have had control). I am by no means stating that the damane would not still be blasting the enemies based on the instinctual reaction of being threatened, but the sul'dam's training would be the cause of the damane knowing what to do under such situations (I haven't carefully researched what happens to a damane once her sul'dam dies or vice versa, but this may be a clue of the circumstances).

 

Slowing is resultative of one channeling/actually touching the Source; if you do not channel (the stage the sul'dam are in), you will not develop the longer lifespan.

 

I can agree with your perspective that the leader of the a'dam 'circle' (because it is less a circle, more an opportunity for weaker channelers to use the collaree's strength) channeling-wise is the damane, but the one in control of the damane is ultimately the sul'dam through, as I stated, behavioral control. I can only think of Pavlov's dogs when I think of the a'dam, the bell is the sul'dam and the dog(s) are the damane. Occasional misbehavior is noted, but hardly characteristic.

 

Lastly, shielding and breaking through shields are completely separate weaves and events for that matter (even if they do require the same Spirit, if it was the case that multiple weaves could not be formed with a single element, the capabilities of the TS would be dramatically hampered).

 

Vardarmus - I don't think anyone is against your statement of the similarity of the shield and severing Weaves; ultimately, what they result in are completely different making them unrelated weaves.

[jsbrads]

Nynaeve used more than spirit to heal severing.

 

There's actually no proof that a suldam can control channeling while shielded. Giving that being shielded is the same as being severed, except temporary, it would suggest that they can't control their partners chanelling while shielded.

 

I still stand by my belief that RJ made a mistake in either his statement, or in the books. Severing on purpose (Not accidental) is done via a modified shield (from the book) therefore if someone can be shielded (From the book) they can be severed.

 

While there is "no proof that a suldam can control channeling while shielded" there is no proof in the opposite direction either. and if you belief is true, any suldam/damane pair could be stopped with the simplest and weakest of weaves of shield (not logical)

Pretty sure on this: Nynaeve healed the hole with a bridge of spirit and a cap of spirit (can't remember which went on the man/woman)

I don't know where you get this, but being shielded is akin to being put in handcuffs and severing is akin to being made a quadrapeligic, they are nothing alike. someone severed can longer see weaves or control the power, whereas someone shielded can still see weaves and interact with a shield as we have seen characters push against shield or break through them.

 

And My Dear From the Isle of Madmen, you said "cannot be apart of any sort of link (because they cannot channel" tho they are a part of a link, it is a given fact, you may argue anything else, but not that they are not a part of a link, they share experience with the damane, Nynaeve describes it as a modified link, tho they don't channel, they can channel. I can't express that strongly enough, they can channel and they do, Renna, Seta and I imagine we will see other examples of this. They can channel, they may never channel in their life, they don't have to channel like those born with the spark must, but once they are trained, they can, they just don't.

 

shielding and breaking shields are different, but breaking shields are not weaves, they are something else. And my statement of the conduit being made of spirit has nothing to do with what can flow in it.

[csnyder]

We haven't seen any demonstration of a sul'dam's strength augmenting the damane's strength in the Power, that is why I am saying that it is less of a traditional Link and more akin to the Warder-bond where one can force/compulse the other. They can not be a part of, for example, the circle of thirteen women Link as they have not developed anything connected with the One Power. The limit of the a'dam ter'angreal's bracelet is allowing this control/compulse function plus -as you mentioned- the shared-experiential function (and, for the Seanchan, serving as a test for sparkers).

 

As far as a damane being able to channel whether or not her sul'dam was incapacitated via shield or severing (which I closed the case on per the RJ quotes and evidence provided), I believe it is rather logical to say that she could - making the statement someone said on the first page of this thread, that removing the damane in battle is the best way to deal with the Seanchan. Out of battle, I had wanted to portray the shielding (severing, originally) of sul'dam an intelligent approach to freeing the damane - I sort of doubt this now due to the rigorous/animal training the damane undergo. Through removing the psychological control the sul'dam have over damane through the bracelet, the damane could free herself if she accepted the change of events.

[Suttree]

, tho they don't channel, they can channel. I can't express that strongly enough, they can channel and they do, Renna, Seta and I imagine we will see other examples of this. They can channel, they may never channel in their life, they don't have to channel like those born with the spark must, but once they are trained, they can, they just don't.

 

But if they never make the "conscious decision/step over the line" to channel there is no actual connection no matter how much training has been done.

[jsbrads]

Guys, lets stop talking past each other Suttree: that is required to slow, not for anything else.

 

And Isle: first paragraph, we basically agree that it is a strange form of linking, but you keep emphasizing how it is different (which we both agree it is really different from a normal circle, there I said it, but it is still linking too.

 

Isle: second paragraph, whoa, shielding and severing are different. which I explained.

And RJ's comments about slowing requires no explaination. we all understand suldam don't slow, but not everything is the same as slowing...

 

But RJ's comment about not being able to sever someone who never channeled may not apply to Suldam, becasue they would be the only case in Randland where a person was involved in every part of the channeling process but never actually touched it themselves, In normal Randland, everyone else who never channeled, also had NO relationship with the power.

You don't have to believe what I am saying in this paragraph, you can rail all you want, but the case is not closed, you beleieve what you want based on the inferences you chose, but there is no proof and so it is not closed.

 

breaking the link, might be possible, but how could we possibly do that? better to shield the damane. a circle could easily shield and tie off the damane's shield, but every time we have interferred with a link (by removing the collar in war time the damane lashed out, so remove the bracelet and add her power to the circle until the battle is over, then maybe we can talk some of them into giving up their ways.

 

Just got an idea of how to start training the damane into accepting life after the collar, bring them into circles to get them used to have the power flow through them without a collar

[Vardar]

Nynaeve used more than spirit to heal severing.

 

There's actually no proof that a suldam can control channeling while shielded. Giving that being shielded is the same as being severed, except temporary, it would suggest that they can't control their partners chanelling while shielded.

 

I still stand by my belief that RJ made a mistake in either his statement, or in the books. Severing on purpose (Not accidental) is done via a modified shield (from the book) therefore if someone can be shielded (From the book) they can be severed.

 

While there is "no proof that a suldam can control channeling while shielded" there is no proof in the opposite direction either. and if you belief is true, any suldam/damane pair could be stopped with the simplest and weakest of weaves of shield (not logical)

Pretty sure on this: Nynaeve healed the hole with a bridge of spirit and a cap of spirit (can't remember which went on the man/woman)

I don't know where you get this, but being shielded is akin to being put in handcuffs and severing is akin to being made a quadrapeligic, they are nothing alike. someone severed can longer see weaves or control the power, whereas someone shielded can still see weaves and interact with a shield as we have seen characters push against shield or break through them.

 

And My Dear From the Isle of Madmen, you said "cannot be apart of any sort of link (because they cannot channel" tho they are a part of a link, it is a given fact, you may argue anything else, but not that they are not a part of a link, they share experience with the damane, Nynaeve describes it as a modified link, tho they don't channel, they can channel. I can't express that strongly enough, they can channel and they do, Renna, Seta and I imagine we will see other examples of this. They can channel, they may never channel in their life, they don't have to channel like those born with the spark must, but once they are trained, they can, they just don't.

 

shielding and breaking shields are different, but breaking shields are not weaves, they are something else. And my statement of the conduit being made of spirit has nothing to do with what can flow in it.

 

One rarely gets close enough to shield the Suldam to test the theory. Remember, channeling the color off is a simple weave, and effectively takes the suldam out of the fight (for a while at least).

 

I thought the gap was bridges with fire (If I recall correctly) and spirit. It wasn't just a spirit thing.

 

I totally disagree with your assesment of Shielding and Severing being vastly different. We have evidence from the books stating otherwise (As I've pointed out a few times). I will give you the still seeing weaves and such, that's a point. It's hard to compare to a RL analogy, due to the nature of the beast. I'd compare it more to having 0 control of your limbs, but still retaining your limbs, vs having your limbs amputated. In both cases your limbs are useless and you can't use them, however in one case you can always retain the hope that they'll find a cure and you can use them again.

 

I wish we had a Suldam entering a stedding to see if they felt the sense of loss, that would explain much...

[Suttree]

Guys, lets stop talking past each other Suttree: that is required to slow, not for anything else.

 

No, it has to do with having any active connection to the source.

 

No, not unless they actually begin to channel...Sul'dam are women who can learn and as they develop the affinity, as they have been doing this for a little while, they begin to slide toward the ability to channel, but they never step over. I believe I have someone say that one of these women felt almost as if she should be able to channel, but not quite. They are getting closer and closer to the brink but they will never step over without conscious effort.

 

That is why there is nothing to sever if they haven't stepped over. The answer quite obviously doesn't only apply to slowing. The second part of the answer doesn't even touch on it. In addition according to the other quote an "active connection" is required for severing, when pieced together there really is no other way to read it.

 

As an aside the adam can only hold sul'dam who have been working with damane for a very long time, those are the ones who are on the brink.