Myrddraal-Human hybrids...or not?

[TheThreeFacedMan]

Hey so long time lurker, first time topic-starter. Given that the series likes to remind us of the Myrddraal's prediliction towards rape has it ever been established that such a particular disturbing union can result in offspring?

[Majsju]

Myrdraal are sterile.

[TheThreeFacedMan]

Cheers, Majsju!

[yourcheesehat]

lol

[yoniy0]

Myrdraal are sterile.

Rather, they have killer-sperm; no ova can withstand it. Same difference, I guess.

[Luzburg]

Myrdraal are sterile.

Rather, they have killer-sperm; no ova can withstand it. Same difference, I guess.

 

That is a terrible image you gave me.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Where did the killer sperm info come from. Do we have a quote. Not disputing, but I thought the BWB said they were sterile. Yes, yes i know, that book can't be trusted 100%.

[Terez]

Interview: 1995

Letter to Pam Korda (Verbatim)

 

Pam Korda

And for the final one, the requisite "dirty question." Compare the length of this answer to the length of the previous two. I think he LIKES dirty questions. *sniff*

 

Where do Trollocs come from? Are there male and female Trollocs that mate? Are there only male Trollocs that mate with animals and/or humans to reproduce? Are Trollocs neuter, grown in a big vat at Shayol Ghul? Inquiring minds want to know!

 

Robert Jordan

WARNING—NOT FAMILY NEWSFROUP MATERIAL. CONSIDER YOURSELF WARNED.

You know the original source, of course...a blending of human and animal genetic material in an effort to produce the "perfect" soldier, though as envisioned by somebody who had never seen combat. Yes, there are female Trollocs, though you don't want to know more than that...there was a clear statement of this actually—that Trollocs breed—when where Myrddraal come from was explained. Sometimes a Trolloc off-spring is a throwback, but not all the way back to human, and twisted. Thus, eyeless but with keen vision, very strong indeed though not in Trolloc-class, able to vanish into shadows & reappear in other shadows.

 

There are no female Myrddraal; not even the laddie who made the Trollocs in the first place knew why...Myrddraal must have their "pleasures" with captured human women...there is no possibility of cross-breeding—it was tested, during the War of the Power, in the crudest sort of way; the Myrddraal isn't sterile, but its sperm kills both human and Trolloc ova—and the sex practices and other attributes of Myrddraal are such that a very strong woman might retain her sanity for six months, but very few do.

 

Pam Korda

(Did I ask about the sex practices of Myrddraal? No, I didn't think so.)

 

Robert Jordan

For the record, a Trolloc could also have sex with a human...they are now two completely incompatible species, so there isn't any possibility of offspring—the Forsaken tested that out too... Trollocs are just not interested in human women sexually; to them, humans are just another food animal... Trollocs are of fairly low intelligence (I told you the designer was never in combat), so they would think of it about as we would having sex with sheep, though they would do it if ordered to. They'd just like it better if they could eat her afterwards.

 

Pam Korda

I really, really, really did not want to know about the sexual practices of various Shadowspawn. So, be warned, anybody who thinks to ask a "dirty question."

[XoMeltdownoX]

Thanks Terez.

[Mefista]

*yay,thread necromancy*

Does anyone think it'll be possible to make a hybrid if woman will be magically protected somehow [by weave, or,like some amateur fanfiction-writer suggested,by the unknown Talent]?

I've had a long,interesting dream,in which it worked like that [among other things],and is currently writing a story based on it [i know,"no fanfiction" rule,but mine doesn't even touch any of canon characters,so I guess it's fair game?], just wanted to know what people think.

[threadnecromancer]

A weave seems unlikely and a Talent seems absurd.

 

I seem to recall that a human-Trolloc hybrid l is possible although the offspring of such unions don't tend to survive long. That seems to contradict what he says above but I could have sworn I read that in the glossary.

 

Anyway, the most probable excuse seems to me that a scientist modified the ova to make them stronger or perhaps engaged in some form of genetic manipulation of Mydraal sperm. It should be science, not the One Power which would result in this (although you would have a question as to why someone would want halfmen producing quadroon men in that case).

[Talmanes]

I wonder if you could domesticate a baby Trolloc...

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

I seem to recall that a human-Trolloc hybrid l is possible although the offspring of such unions don't tend to survive long. That seems to contradict what he says above but I could have sworn I read that in the glossary.

 

 

Something similar, but not quite that.

 

It wasn't human breeding with Trolloc, RJ was talking about Half-men and Trollocs.

 

So, you have a Trolloc, which is basically part animal, part human. 

 

The Myrddraal is a Trolloc which is human-dominant (2 thirds human, 1 animal). 

 

The ones that don't survive are the animal dominant ones (2 thirds animal, 1 human), the opposite of Myrddraal. 

 

Edit: here's the quote: 

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 14th, 2009

TGS Signing Report - Aubree Pham (Paraphrased)

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Myrddraal are not Trollocs who can channel. Their powers are totally independent from the One Power. They really are just throwbacks to the human stock. Harriet added that there are also animal throwbacks, but they just die.

 

 

 

As for any chance of it being possible to have half-breed with a human. It is impossible. 

 

A Talent is impossible. A Talent for controlling fertility in humans is unlikely as it is. A Talent that would allow  he Myrddraal - created with the TP, the essence of the DO - to breed with a human is absurd. 

 

Science - as mentioned - would be the only semi-plausible way to explain something like that  - and even science is highly unlikely. 

 

There is nothing to keep people from writing fan fiction - only from doing/promoting it on DM. However, I would suggest that if you are contemplating Fan fiction, any Shadowspawn half-breed with humans or 'good' shadowspawn would go against everything RJ said and wrote about them. 

 

On that note, although it is still a point of contention, Shadowspawn basically cannot be raised to be good. They are created from the essence of evil - the Dark One. Nothing can overcome their nature. 

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Jan 21st, 2003

COT Signing Report - Ajierene (Paraphrased)

AJIERENE

I asked if Trollocs could ever do good.

ROBERT JORDAN

He looked up from where he was about to sign my book and told me, "….Trollocs could do good as easily as you could cut up a baby. It just isn't in their nature." Food for thought, so to speak.

[Mefista]

threadnecromancer

*giggles at the name*

 

"Unlikely"?"Absurd"? Can you explain why do you think so?

 

I am pretty sure there weren't any.

 

I can't see how science can do something magic cannot.Besides, breeding Myrddraal to human will logically result in channelers being born, which is good; or, giving their unnatural nature [sorry for tautology], in more Myrddraal [because it kind of makes sense,atleast for me].

 

Talmanes

I think you can.Even not a baby-they are too animalistic to care who feeds them.

 

Barid Bel Medar

And again I wonder how people think science can do things magic cannot.

Talent which will make woman fertile irregardless of conditions not only makes sence, but is actually very useful [unless she is a zoophile, then we gonna have a problem].

 

Why so?They are part humans anyway,and humans are good in their roots [sorry for awkward english].

In my case [in the dream I saw],there is a theoretical sutuation of things changing a bit after DO was sealed, and Myrddraal went from being hate-filled [this hatred was not theirs, but DO's] to mostly uncaring contemplators, as creatures with most of emotions lacking should be.And Aes Sedai started trying to make them into servants.That's it.Oh, and there is one who was [unsuccesfully] created as a first variant of Shaidar Haran and is, by Fade standarts, pretty insane [and rather friendly by human ones, though he is not meaningful much for a story anyway]./white text.

[Mefista]

Aaand dead end thread again.People,I seriously want to discuss it with you.

[Mefista]

Ok, how about myrddraal - ogier hybrids then?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Sorry, I've been busy for the past few weeks. A bit of a late reply. 

 

1. It is highly unlikely because it requires something extraordinary (even within the bounds of the magic system) that has no evidence for, and strong evidence suggesting it is not possible to do so. 

 

2. As for breeding humans/Myrddraal = channelers, I'm not sure how that's logical? Could you please explain, because I have no idea what you mean by this?. (Unless you are talking about the idea that Myrddraal are Trollocs with the ability to channel or have the channeling gene. In which case, that is not true, RJ has said this is not the case.) Channeling is something of both the soul and the body. It's not exactly certain how it works exactly, but it combines both. 

 

3. Personally, I don't think even science  can do it. But I say it's more likely because the WoT magic is not just 'magic' that can do everything. It adheres to definite laws that restrict what is possible. For example, it's impossible to use channeling to fly, as per RJ. You can't stop ageing with channeling, or prevent eventual death. What you suggest is just as unlikely as these things, even more so than flying. Evidence from what has been shown to be possible or not possible indicates it's highly unlikely. 

 

However, we don't have that information. All I can say is that it's 99% likely that it's impossible, but it can't be proven or dis-proven. 

 

4. In regards to the Talent. It's possible, but again, highly unlikely. I'm not sure how someone could develop a Talent that makes it possible to mate with Shadowspawn is likely. There are no Talents similar, nor does anything in the books or from RJ say that such a thing is likely. I'm not trying to disprove anything, I'm just saying, in terms of what we know of the WoT, it's highly unlikely. 

 

5. As for Shadowspawn being irredeemably evil - I can't really answer that. RJ created it and said they are evil and can't be tamed or be good in any way. I'd say it's because their very being is corrupted by the DO's essence. It becomes a case of they are literally made in part of pure evil. I do agree that it is logical to say that they also have a human part, which would imply that they could be redeemable, but RJ has said that's not the case, for whatever reasons. *shrug* It's his story, I can only go by what he says. 

[Mefista]

Barid Bel Medar

 

1.Errm..I kinda doesn't know what is it answer to.

 

2.Him saying that means nothing, as it doesn't make sense.He can be one of those authors who'll change canon just to not let fans have a theory which is truth.

Though I have dumb theory about myrddraal unrelated to the "channeler gene" thing [white text ahead]: that guy who created trollocks tried to affect them through dreamworld magic to make'em better (somehow), which resulted in nightmare-energy infused creatures being born. Myrddraal have all the stereotypely threatening qualities nightmare monster/boogiemen often have.And they are "not quite real" and can't dream, which can easily be explained by them being stuff of dreams themselves.

 

As for the first thing, it's logical cause myrddraal are magical) logically, breeding with one will have some supernatural benefits.

 

3.Why can't this magic crosspolinate human and inhuman when it can make human/animal hybrids? (and don't say all those "genetics" thingies author said - I know that you can't just make hybrids with genetics, so magic it is)

 

4.Not the talent to "mate with Shadowspawn", but to be able to procreate with male of any specie. All Talents are benefitical, but all of them are strikingly different, so it can be possible. 

 

5He died, you don't have to. Even if you respect someone, you still should be able to see logical errors he made.

Trollocks were shown to be rather humane in most things - they are not doing evil 24/7,do they?So they are not pure evil.

Besides, if in-universe someone could be turned evil by magic, inverse should be possible as well. Let's say - channeling through twelve Ogier, for example)

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well, I don't know what I can say to that. 

 

However, remember that - as you have used to bypass the illogical aspects of your theory - this is fiction involving magic. 

 

Just because something is not logical to you, it is the author's work, and they set the rules.

 

Also, I've allowed a bit of discussion involving fan-fiction, but please avoid suggesting that your fan-fiction ideas are correct where the author is not. 

 

By all means, discuss the reliability of RJ's words - but don't bring fan fiction ideas into it. It is the wishes of RJ and Team Jordan, and DM complies with them.

 

That said - I'm afraid there is nothing more to discuss. If you are going to say the author is wrong about his own story, I can't provide anything further in debate. When someone responds to an argument saying that they don't believe the author's words on the matter because it doesn't make sense to them and they might have lied so fan theories aren't correct along with saying that it's possible with magic, I'm not trying to seem rude - I don't have a problem with someone saying  that - but you can see how it's impossible to have a debate on the subject?    

 

I suppose all I can say now is it doesn't make sense to me. *shrug*

[Mefista]

This wasn't what I've said at all 0_o maybe it sounded like this, but it's due to my english being far from perfect.

 

Whatever, no-one is interested anyway.Thanks for paying attention to me.

[Barid Bel Medar]

This wasn't what I've said at all 0_o maybe it sounded like this, but it's due to my english being far from perfect.

 

 

That may be, I may have misinterpreted the comments. Sorry about that. I didn't think it was malicious in any case, so don't worry. It was more about heading in the direction of discussing fan-fiction in depth, which I can't allow. 

 

As for the second part. I don't mind continuing the discussion, I just don't know what more can be added. I've provided all I know on the subject. 

 

It can't be proven or dis-proven any further than it has been. I personally don't think it's likely for the reasons already stated. You obviously disagree with that, which is fine, but where do you go from there? 

 

Is there anything else to take into consideration? 

 

Also, I wouldn't worry about people not responding. With the series over, discussion in general has slowed significantly. 

[Sabio]

It was in pg 76 of the Big White Book that said "only male Trollocs fight or hunt.  Females are cloistered, serving as little more than breeding machines.  Fortunately female Trollocs enjoy being pregnant" it also mentioned "Trollocs can interbreed with humans but prefer them as food.  In any case if the human mother survives to give birth , the resulting offspring is usually stillborn, and the few born live do not live long."