Ta'veren Ability?

[Darthe]

We are all aware that Rand is an extremely powerful ta'veren. We know that he is as strong a ta'veren as Hawkwing was, if not stronger. (I personally believe him to be stronger, Moiraine doesn't know everything). My question is about the nature of Perrin's ta'veren nature in conjunction to Mats.

 

Perrin, thus far, has not shown his ability or purpose as clearly as Mat has which is strange considering how late we are in the series. I know that there are several popular theories about him because of this (reforming the seals etc) but that is not what seems strange to me. What I want to know is why he shows his ta'veren nature in more subtle ways (with the exception of a few awesome moments, especially since BS started writing). My personal theory is that Mat and he are both exert the same influence on the pattern but that Perrin's ta'veren nature comes out a bit less because he seems to more naturally accept and follow the "Will of the Wheel" and so does not need as much overt influence.

 

Essentially I see his ta'veren nature as being more subte because he follows the patterns designs for him.

 

Thoughts?

[Nightstrike]

I don't know whether he follows the pattern designs more. He got rid of the Shaido, and I guess that's good. He has armies sworn to him, and that's probably good as well. He jumped to Tar Valon, and inadvertently helped with getting rid of Mesaana. He's also survived so far, and that must have taken a lot of thread-pulling.

[gloweye]

Well, commen interpretation is that his speed at gathering army is one major effect of him being ta'veren. Tam remarks on this, staying it's incredible that so many of the malden refuges appear to gain hope so fast after a heavy time, and that they are learning how to fight very fast.don't forget, his army exceeds that of mat in size and he isn't a bad general. His effect is with people.

[Nightstrike]

Well, commen interpretation is that his speed at gathering army is one major effect of him being ta'veren. Tam remarks on this, staying it's incredible that so many of the malden refuges appear to gain hope so fast after a heavy time, and that they are learning how to fight very fast.don't forget, his army exceeds that of mat in size and he isn't a bad general. His effect is with people.

The "Gambler", the one who is "One With The Land", and the "Wolf King/People Person"?

[Tyzack]

On the topic of ta'vern, has it ever been said if LTT was ta'vern? Or any other characters from the AoL?

[Darthe]

When he pulls the pattern around he seems to do it in game changing ways, such as the aforementioned instances, but both of the other ta'veren that we see change events in their everyday lives in addition to large events. I suppose I am wondering if you all believe that the nature of ta'veren can be different for different people, and if yes then how so?

[LemonPastie]

When he pulls the pattern around he seems to do it in game changing ways, such as the aforementioned instances, but both of the other ta'veren that we see change events in their everyday lives in addition to large events. I suppose I am wondering if you all believe that the nature of ta'veren can be different for different people, and if yes then how so?

 

I would certainly say that the nature can be different. I will try to explain how I think it goes in the extreme of each case

1) everything you say is the exact right thing for what needs to happen to occur

2) everything you do is the exact right thing for what needs to happen to occur (slightly different) (like Paul in the latter Dune books)

3) everything you do happens to have the correct outcomes (Mat hitting the rabbit and finding a pot for his dinner)

4) everything has happened before you are there and you are just there to do what needs to be done (imagine if someone was already there and had happened to have cooked enough rabbit - like Elyas in EotW for Perrin)

5) In order for the right things to occur, people will say something they are unlikely to say (Like Mat with his bargain with the windfinders)

 

This is how I imagine things to be different for different Ta'veren and I also imagine that specific examples would come and go as needed. Some people may have some of these examples manifest themselves more often but I would also expect each one to happen to each ta'veren.

 

Going through the examples with Mat and his rabbit

1) Mat says "Gee I'm hungry I wish we had some cooked rabbit" - Moiraine then fetches him the rabbit and cooks it with her fire - Mat gets dinner

2) Mat sees a rabbit and throws a stone at it with the intention of killing it for tea then looks for a pot in the river and finds it - Mat gets dinner

3) Mat throws a stone in frustration it hits the rabbit etc (we all know this one) - Mat gets dinner

4) Mat pulls the three of them out of the tower and finds a waiting servant with cooked rabbit - Mat gets dinner

5) Thom says - Mat you look hungry, let me go catch you a rabbit for dinner - Mat gets dinner

 

 

See what I mean?

[Nightstrike]

When he pulls the pattern around he seems to do it in game changing ways, such as the aforementioned instances, but both of the other ta'veren that we see change events in their everyday lives in addition to large events. I suppose I am wondering if you all believe that the nature of ta'veren can be different for different people, and if yes then how so?

Yes, I think so. My guess is that it might have to do with their personalities. My theory would then be that they are fitting the role that the Wheel gave them, so that the DO doesn't win. There might be other goals besides keeping the DO locked up. Mat's the Gambler because he is a certain person with a certain soul. He even remarked that "battle is the greatest gamble of all", or something like that.

[Darthe]

Did RJ or associated ever say anything about this?

[Nightstrike]

Did RJ or associated ever say anything about this?

Nothing specific. Maybe a couple of RAFOs. Nothing that makes things clear regarding stuff in this thread, I believe.

 

I collected a few quotes regarding ta'veren, but the quote button doesn't work the way it used to. Do I have too old software or something?

[Hyronimus]

hi there, interesting thread, as an aside I don't know that all of Mat's luck can be atributed to him being Ta'veren.

 

As far as being Ta'veren goes there is a feel that they ierect the pattern as much as are lead by it, that they in fact are empowereed by the pattern to effect change, that's why the feelings and actions of the Ta'veren are so important. i think the DO may be under the impression (misguided or not) that there is value in having a ta'veren act in his interest.