egwene vs elayne (political arcs)

[Mr Ares]

The useful thing about paying attention to what characters say is that you have a basis for your claims beyond pure guesswork.

 

Except characters have bias, and emotional involvement, and their own point of view, and sometimes just flat out lie. What people say very rarely reflects purely the truth.

 

Events, on the other hand, are fact.

What happens is fact, yet events are still open to interpretation. And it's not like events are supporting you either.

 

 

 

He would try to remove her or prevent her from gaining it to begin with. Possibly requiring military force. This scenario has been discussed - while Rand has the military power to defeat Andor, victory could be long and costly, and decidedly pyrrhic on the verge of TG.

 

Military force? Really?

Yes, really.

 

 

Rand's people had possession of the city, but not most of the country. To say that he was in a position to give her the throne is rather inaccurate. At best he gave her a secure base from which to establish her rule.

 

And if he'd given that 'secure base' to another of the candidates, they'd have had it instead of Elayne while Elayne was still in Ebou Dar.

True, but they wouldn't have been queen. Elayne still had to win the support of the Houses. Rand didn't give her those, so he didn't give her the throne.

 

 

In that event, she could have returned to Caemlyn immediately and established herself as queen. The AS refused to allow her to return with the embassy in LoC Prologue, but if Rand wasn't there then the reason for sending the embassy is gone, but so is the reason for holding Elayne back from going.

 

And in the time between word of Rahvin's death reaching Salidar and Elayne arriving in Caemlyn things will have already gone to hell. Armylla, Elenia and Naen acted as soon as Rand left Andor in LoC. Besides, the AS might have wanted to have Rand safely under their thumb before risking sending Elayne back to Caemlyn.

Elenia and Naean didn't act until Colavaere had herself crowned. That was some time after Rand left. They were imprisoned by Dyelin immediately, and later captured by Arymilla, who was the last to act. Assuming the AS sent Elayne at the same time they would have sent the embassy, they would have been well on their way at the very least. That might have forced their hands, causing them to act sooner. On the other hand, it might cause them to delay - they might wish to ingratiate themselves with Elayne rather than try to capture the throne through military force. Even if they did act straight away, you still have Dyelin imprisoning the two rebels. Arymilla alone has precious little support (she needed Sarand and Arawn to pledge their support to her).

 

Elayne was attacked by people who meant to kill her. What is that if not life threatening? She was not using the ter'angreal until she was attacked. Given that Mat had loaned it to her, she had a right to keep it with her.

As for the new threats, that is as a result of changing circumstances. Further, she did adapt the plan as best she could to fit the new circumstances.

 

Re: Mat's terangreal, my point is that she didn't have the right to take it with her to the dungeons in the first place.

 

Re: the plan: The point is that Elayne planned to interrogate 1 BA. Elayne did not plan to fight 3 BA. It was an answer to a question about a "good plan" going wrong. It was a good plan for the intended purpose; but when faced with the new threats, Elayne continued with the old plan.

 

Pretty much like a commander fielding a strong army to face an opposing general and his army only to find that 3 armies are facing him. The original battle plan would be obsolete!

Of course she had a right to have the medallion with her - it was given to her, put in her possession, even if only temporarily. When faced with new threats, the plan was already underway. If a general only discovered the other two armies arrayed against him midway through battling the first, what do you expect him to do? Retreat can be tricky - you need to make sure it doesn't into a rout. Likewise Elayne, running away is itself hazardous, whereas continuing to bluff has the best chance of success.

 

 

You're dodging the point. Rand could have simply worded things better and there wouldn't have been a problem. He said he was giving the throne to Elayne, a turn of phrase which undermines her rule. By simply saying instead that the throne was Elayne's, and that she would take it when ready, he could preserve Andoran independence and worked to TG. As it is, he helped provoke a civil war.

 

Contrary, I am not dodging the point. I am saying that Rand intended the Throne for Elayne only.

Which has nothing to do with anything. It doesn't matter who he wanted on the throne, he caused problems by saying he was going to put them there. And ended up not putting anyone there anyway.

 

 

That doesn't answer my question. The mere fact of there being Trollocs in Caemlyn doesn't mean Gaebril was commanding them. We know Gaebril was Rahvin. Rand knows. This knowledge is not widespread. There is a lot of rumour around, besides, and people don't believe stuff just because the DR proclaims it. Rand killed the man calling himself King of Andor. There were Trollocs. That indicates the Shadow was operating in Caemlyn, it does not indicate that Gaebril was a Chosen.

 

With that line of reasoning and need for everything to be explained in minute details, the series would have been 30 books. Or maybe it is that you think that Andorans are collectively stupid & would not link the simultaneous disappearance of Gaebril and the defeat of the Shadowspawn army camped inside the Inner City?

When you don't have access to the full story those facts could be linked in more than one way. The Shadow killed Gaebril, and Rand then killed the Trollocs responsible, for example. Or Rand set the Trollocs on the population. Remember that not all of what is said about Rand is nice. Do the people have any reason to believe that Gaebril was Rahvin beyond Rand's say so? No.

 

 

Rather, political reasons impact on her capacity to lead the spy network. She is a bad candidate. So you don't have a good candidate. So who shall Elayne choose to be her new spymaster? Maybe she should just put an advert in the local paper and see what happens.

 

Isn't there a difference between personal qualifications (intelligence, wisdom, trustworthiness, knowledge, etc.) and external factors affecting a candidate (Elayne's unwillingness to be seen as a Dyelin puppet)?

Ultimately, no. Dyelin is not a viable candidate.

 

 

Why not? Elayne is now seen as ruled by two women rather than just one. Either of them works against her, as do both together. She needs distance from them.

The same way Egwene banished Lelaine and Romanda once she secured her authority through the Declaration of War against Elaida?!

A rather different situation. Neither Romanda nor Lelaine was visible as Egwene's puppet master (though she could be seen as a puppet of the Hall as a whole). Egwene did not owe her position to Romanda or Lelaine. Elayne does owe hers, in a large part, to Dyelin, and Morgase is both a former queen and Elayne's mother.

 

 

Regardless of the arguments, Elayne as a Queen should not fear any inferior's shadow. She is the bloody Queen! And she should have the self-confidence and sense of security to use strong allies, not feel the need to distance them. Just a personal perspective!

Because queens have never been puppets before?

 

 

My failure to name another candidate stems from my ignorance of Andor's "human resources." And Dyelin's virtues can be listed if one has time to research the tedious readings of the "succession." But the failure to name another candidate or list Dyelin's qualifications have nothing to do with my initial point that I think in any country a reliable and effective intelligence service at home is more important than expansionism and other projects (Andor) has undertaken.

Projects such as securing your borders, securing your rule, putting down a rebellion, building alliances with other countries, expanding your country's economic power, preparing for TG - these are not trivial things. She has delayed one important thing (though not ignored the matter completely), but has dealt with several others.

[Suttree]

And Rand could have defeated anything Andor cold throw against him period. What he had in Caemlyn when we first see him in LOC: Aiels under Bael and Saldeans under Basher together with his channeling was enough to hold city against anything that high seats could realistically brought in field at a time. Full strength of Goshien, one more clan and Taim added and he would wipe the floor with anything Andorans had.

On a mater of military might of Andor I would like to say that, personally I think that any Borderland nation have stronger army. Elayne claims that united Andor could nearly match number of Borderlanders in south, but that there would be lot of untrained, too old or to young soldiers. On the other hand all four monarch brought with them approximately 50 000 soldiers and still left enough to take care of usual level of Troloc incursion. In case of emergency and large scale mobilization they could probably raise more quality soldiers than Andor. Narishma, I think, says something in line of every Borderlander being as good soldier as actual soldiers in south of pure necessity in tGS.

 

No one has ever disputed that Rand would defeat a united Andor coming against him. The fact remains it would be the worst possible course of action for him and an utterly phyrric victory with TG on the doorstep. It would significantly weaken the lights forces. Also important to note he only held Caemlyn. Even if he managed a decisive vicotry over the High Seats main force can you imagaine the nightmare of entering into a protracted guerilla war across that entire nation.

 

As for Andor's military might each Borderland nation can field around 50,000. While those soldiers will undoubtadly be better trained on the whole Andor can field 200,000 which matches all the Borderland nations combined.

 

http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/136

 

My failure to name another candidate stems from my ignorance of Andor's "human resources." And Dyelin's virtues can be listed if one has time to research the tedious readings of the "succession." But the failure to name another candidate or list Dyelin's qualifications have nothing to do with my initial point that I think in any country a reliable and effective intelligence service at home is more important than expansionism and other projects (Andor) has undertaken.

Projects such as securing your borders, securing your rule, putting down a rebellion, building alliances with other countries, expanding your country's economic power, preparing for TG - these are not trivial things. She has delayed one important thing (though not ignored the matter completely), but has dealt with several others.

 

This is essentially what it comes down to and it has been readily apparent for some time in the thread. Not sure why the point is being further debated.

[Maleshub]

This is essentially what it comes down to and it has been readily apparent for some time in the thread. Not sure why the point is being further debated.

 

The original point has been oversaturated with debate and has been at an impasse for a while. But the other points raised, the many diversions and responses, have taken over. Not that the debate isn't enjoyable; it has been quite enlightening for me.

[Suttree]

This is essentially what it comes down to and it has been readily apparent for some time in the thread. Not sure why the point is being further debated.

 

The original point has been oversaturated with debate and has been at an impasse for a while. But the other points raised, the many diversions and responses, have taken over. Not that the debate isn't enjoyable; it has been quite enlightening for me.

 

It is pretty cool watching how threads evolve some times...

[Maleshub]

Of course she had a right to have the medallion with her - it was given to her, put in her possession, even if only temporarily. When faced with new threats, the plan was already underway. If a general only discovered the other two armies arrayed against him midway through battling the first, what do you expect him to do? Retreat can be tricky - you need to make sure it doesn't into a rout. Likewise Elayne, running away is itself hazardous, whereas continuing to bluff has the best chance of success.

 

That's where we continue to disagree. I differentiate between borrowing privilages and ownership rights. And I don't think an agreement will be reached on this point.

 

As to the plan and Elayne fleeing turning into a rout, I would think that Elayne in the palace with over 100 Kin can retreat through a gateway and get sufficient back up. The BA would not dare chase Elayne through the palace; they would try to flee.

 

Regardless, you stated that Elayne continued with the bluff (the original plan), which negates the earlier statement that she adapted the original plan.

 

Which has nothing to do with anything. It doesn't matter who he wanted on the throne, he caused problems by saying he was going to put them there. And ended up not putting anyone there anyway.

 

We seem to agree on this partially. Faced with a choice of ruffling a few Andoran feathers and having Elayne sit on the throne, Rand risked the ruffled feathers to further his plans for securing Andor and Cairhien in preparation for TG. In my view, Rand couldn't risk anyone other than Elayne on the Throne; and his actions were pointed in that direction regardless of misunderstandings, hurt feelings, or temporary prices that have to be paid to secure the overall objective.

 

When you don't have access to the full story those facts could be linked in more than one way. The Shadow killed Gaebril, and Rand then killed the Trollocs responsible, for example. Or Rand set the Trollocs on the population. Remember that not all of what is said about Rand is nice. Do the people have any reason to believe that Gaebril was Rahvin beyond Rand's say so? No.

 

That still underestimates the power of the people. And I believe Andorans would have figured it out and connected the dots. Again, a point we seem to be constantly disagreeing on.

 

Ultimately, no. Dyelin is not a viable candidate.

 

I know that it ultimately excluded her from Elayne's consideration; but the issue was not "ultimately;" It was trying to understand the parts and details as well as reasoning behind the exclusion.

 

A rather different situation. Neither Romanda nor Lelaine was visible as Egwene's puppet master (though she could be seen as a puppet of the Hall as a whole). Egwene did not owe her position to Romanda or Lelaine. Elayne does owe hers, in a large part, to Dyelin, and Morgase is both a former queen and Elayne's mother.

 

The point is not how much of a puppet either Egwene or Elayne seemed. It is how each acted when they finally could against their alleged puppet masters. Egwene followed the path of inclusion, cooperation; whereas Elayne followed the path of exclusionism.

 

Because queens have never been puppets before?

 

Puppet queens have been puppets; Elayne is no puppet. She can hold her own and should be more confident in her ability as a queen.

 

 

Projects such as securing your borders, securing your rule, putting down a rebellion, building alliances with other countries, expanding your country's economic power, preparing for TG - these are not trivial things. She has delayed one important thing (though not ignored the matter completely), but has dealt with several others.

 

This has been the whole point of disagreement from the start; we disagree on the order of priorities. Nothing Elayne did was trivial or unimportant; but my perceived order of priorities differs.

 

Anyway, I will venture to say that Elayne should have considered Thom for the post of Spymaster. He is the most qualified Andoran for the job; and Elayne has seen him work the field. The man was a legend. He killed two kings covertly!

 

She would not have known that he will refuse it; and when she approached him, it was only to reinstate him as Court Bard.

 

It is pretty cool watching how threads evolve some times...

 

Definitely very interesting; and a good exercise in debate and communication. I enjoy it immensely.

[MasterAblar]

Elenia and Naean didn't act until Colavaere had herself crowned. That was some time after Rand left. They were imprisoned by Dyelin immediately, and later captured by Arymilla, who was the last to act. Assuming the AS sent Elayne at the same time they would have sent the embassy, they would have been well on their way at the very least. That might have forced their hands, causing them to act sooner. On the other hand, it might cause them to delay - they might wish to ingratiate themselves with Elayne rather than try to capture the throne through military force. Even if they did act straight away, you still have Dyelin imprisoning the two rebels. Arymilla alone has precious little support (she needed Sarand and Arawn to pledge their support to her).

 

You're correct they did not wait until Colavaere was crowned, or rather when they heard the rumours that Rand had gone to kneel to Elaida. Basically it was the news that Rand had definitely left Andor that made them act. Before that they would not have dared.

 

If Rand were to leave Caemlyn right after killing Rahvin, taking his soldiers with him, and without bothering to extend his influence to Andor, Elenia and Naen, and perhaps Arymilla could have acted instantly. A little over 2 months passed between Rand taking Caemlyn and the arrival of the Salidar embassy. And the Aes Sedai might not want to risk Elayne anyway. Chaos could spread quite quickly in 2 months. Dyelin was not in Caemlyn when Rahvin was killed so she would not have been able to arrest Elenia and Naen.

[Mr Ares]

Of course she had a right to have the medallion with her - it was given to her, put in her possession, even if only temporarily. When faced with new threats, the plan was already underway. If a general only discovered the other two armies arrayed against him midway through battling the first, what do you expect him to do? Retreat can be tricky - you need to make sure it doesn't into a rout. Likewise Elayne, running away is itself hazardous, whereas continuing to bluff has the best chance of success.

 

That's where we continue to disagree. I differentiate between borrowing privilages and ownership rights. And I don't think an agreement will be reached on this point.

 

As to the plan and Elayne fleeing turning into a rout, I would think that Elayne in the palace with over 100 Kin can retreat through a gateway and get sufficient back up. The BA would not dare chase Elayne through the palace; they would try to flee.

 

Regardless, you stated that Elayne continued with the bluff (the original plan), which negates the earlier statement that she adapted the original plan.

The plan was suitable for its intended purpose. She was faced with changed circumstances. Her choices then were to continue with the plan, only with no backup, or to run away. The problem with running away is that it might give them opportunity to attack her as she flees. True, it doesn't take long to dive through a Gateway, but it also doesn't take long to throw a fireball. Whichever course of action she takes is risky. I would say she chose the less risky course.

 

 

 

Which has nothing to do with anything. It doesn't matter who he wanted on the throne, he caused problems by saying he was going to put them there. And ended up not putting anyone there anyway.

 

We seem to agree on this partially. Faced with a choice of ruffling a few Andoran feathers and having Elayne sit on the throne, Rand risked the ruffled feathers to further his plans for securing Andor and Cairhien in preparation for TG. In my view, Rand couldn't risk anyone other than Elayne on the Throne; and his actions were pointed in that direction regardless of misunderstandings, hurt feelings, or temporary prices that have to be paid to secure the overall objective.

We fundamentally disagree. It was not a choice between putting Elayne there but ruffling a few feathers, or not ruffling feathers but maybe not having Elayne there. He could have had Elayne there with no ruffled feathers. That's my point. If he had been more careful with his choice of words then no feathers would have been ruffled without affecting her chances of getting the throne. Ultimately, feathers were ruffled and to no gain as she had to take the throne herself.

 

 

 

When you don't have access to the full story those facts could be linked in more than one way. The Shadow killed Gaebril, and Rand then killed the Trollocs responsible, for example. Or Rand set the Trollocs on the population. Remember that not all of what is said about Rand is nice. Do the people have any reason to believe that Gaebril was Rahvin beyond Rand's say so? No.

 

That still underestimates the power of the people. And I believe Andorans would have figured it out and connected the dots. Again, a point we seem to be constantly disagreeing on.

Because you insist those dots could only be connected one way. Based on what we know that is true, based on what they know it isn't.

 

 

 

A rather different situation. Neither Romanda nor Lelaine was visible as Egwene's puppet master (though she could be seen as a puppet of the Hall as a whole). Egwene did not owe her position to Romanda or Lelaine. Elayne does owe hers, in a large part, to Dyelin, and Morgase is both a former queen and Elayne's mother.

 

The point is not how much of a puppet either Egwene or Elayne seemed. It is how each acted when they finally could against their alleged puppet masters. Egwene followed the path of inclusion, cooperation; whereas Elayne followed the path of exclusionism.

Actually, the issue of how much of a puppet they seemed is entirely relevant. Elayne is trying to avoid being seen as a puppet. That perception is something that could be harmful to her. Egwene was never seen to rely heavily on Romanda or Lelaine. They were influential members of the Hall (and therefore she was limited in her ability to get rid of them anyway - dismissing them as Sitters could see them returned, and exile for no reason would turn the Hall against her), but Dyelin was a major force in Elayne becoming queen. The two situations are quite dissimilar. If Egwene is seen as a pawn, who is she seen as a pawn of? Siuan? Romanda? Lelaine? The Hall? The Salidar Six? Elayne has to act against a perception of one woman being seen as a puppet master - Dyelin didn't really have competition in that regard. Egwene had to seize control from those who would be puppet masters in truth. And she was hardly in a position to exile everyone who might be seen as controlling her.

 

 

 

Because queens have never been puppets before?

 

Puppet queens have been puppets; Elayne is no puppet. She can hold her own and should be more confident in her ability as a queen.

The problem is that if she is seen as a puppet of Dyelin, people will act as if she is a puppet of Dyelin. What happens if foreign rulers send ambassadors to Elayne, and the first thing they do is seek out Dyelin? If their meetings with Elayne hold only empty pleasantries but they try to talk real business as soon as they're alone with Dyelin. Of course, such misunderstandings can be put to rest immediately, but it still undermines the queen. And those misunderstanding can lead to others getting the wrong end of the stick. And if enough people notice foreigners trying to have private meetings with Dyelin and treating the queen as secondary, then what? Elayne is seen as weaker. Elayne is no puppet. Other people don't know that. Best to get off to the best start you can rather than hope to make up the ground later.

 

 

 

 

Projects such as securing your borders, securing your rule, putting down a rebellion, building alliances with other countries, expanding your country's economic power, preparing for TG - these are not trivial things. She has delayed one important thing (though not ignored the matter completely), but has dealt with several others.

 

This has been the whole point of disagreement from the start; we disagree on the order of priorities. Nothing Elayne did was trivial or unimportant; but my perceived order of priorities differs.

But why? After all, what is Intelligence for? Information on potential or actual threats or opportunities. And yet even with her spy network in its infancy, she is acting against potential threats and seizing on opportunities.

 

 

Elenia and Naean didn't act until Colavaere had herself crowned. That was some time after Rand left. They were imprisoned by Dyelin immediately, and later captured by Arymilla, who was the last to act. Assuming the AS sent Elayne at the same time they would have sent the embassy, they would have been well on their way at the very least. That might have forced their hands, causing them to act sooner. On the other hand, it might cause them to delay - they might wish to ingratiate themselves with Elayne rather than try to capture the throne through military force. Even if they did act straight away, you still have Dyelin imprisoning the two rebels. Arymilla alone has precious little support (she needed Sarand and Arawn to pledge their support to her).

 

You're correct they did not wait until Colavaere was crowned, or rather when they heard the rumours that Rand had gone to kneel to Elaida. Basically it was the news that Rand had definitely left Andor that made them act. Before that they would not have dared.

 

If Rand were to leave Caemlyn right after killing Rahvin, taking his soldiers with him, and without bothering to extend his influence to Andor, Elenia and Naen, and perhaps Arymilla could have acted instantly. A little over 2 months passed between Rand taking Caemlyn and the arrival of the Salidar embassy. And the Aes Sedai might not want to risk Elayne anyway. Chaos could spread quite quickly in 2 months. Dyelin was not in Caemlyn when Rahvin was killed so she would not have been able to arrest Elenia and Naen.

Surely the reason for the AS to not risk Elayne - that Rand might come back - is reason enough for Elayne's rivals to delay? Further, Elayne starts as the strongest House. With Dyelin's supporters as well, Arymilla, Naean and Elenia are all in fairly weak positions. Their only advantage is being in Caemlyn. Yes, chaos can spread during that time, but that can work to her advantage - if she has mulitple foes, it benefits her to have them fight one another. Dyelin was near Caemlyn when first mentioned, I don't know how long she had been there, so potentially she could have been in Caemlyn in time to seize the capital and imprison the rebels.

[MasterAblar]

Surely the reason for the AS to not risk Elayne - that Rand might come back - is reason enough for Elayne's rivals to delay? Further, Elayne starts as the strongest House. With Dyelin's supporters as well, Arymilla, Naean and Elenia are all in fairly weak positions. Their only advantage is being in Caemlyn. Yes, chaos can spread during that time, but that can work to her advantage - if she has mulitple foes, it benefits her to have them fight one another. Dyelin was near Caemlyn when first mentioned, I don't know how long she had been there, so potentially she could have been in Caemlyn in time to seize the capital and imprison the rebels.

 

If Rand doesn't make it known that he want's Elayne to be Queen, why should Elayne's rivals be afraid of his return? If he doesn't make his desires known, then as far as those rivals are concerned, it doesn't matter to Rand who the Queen is. On the other hand Elayne is the heir to the throne, so it would be very important for the Aes Sedai to keep her out of Rand's hands, until Rand is securely in their hands.

 

Elayne has Dyelin's support, but she doesn't have the support of those who want Dyelin for Queen. She presumably would have the support of the other four houses that sided with her in the books, but in a scenario in which a civil war has been going on for 2 months before her return, it's difficult to predict what would happen. Perhaps Dyelin herself would have been crowned, assuming she managed to put down any rebellion by the other houses, as Elayne is nowhere to be seen.

 

As for Dyelin, it would probably be harder for her to capture the rebels as the situation would be far more chaotic (with Rahvin suddenly gone, and seemingly no one in charge of the capital or the country. And while chaos between her rival would definitely be to Elayne's advantage, I was thinking more that it would be very harmful to Andor and therefore the light, which is why Rand staying in Andor and stabilizing things was important.

[Maleshub]

The plan was suitable for its intended purpose. She was faced with changed circumstances. Her choices then were to continue with the plan, only with no backup, or to run away.

 

The original purpose was to question 1 imprisoned BA (intended purpose). In any case, I've got a feeling we'll just keep running around this circle for a while.

 

We fundamentally disagree. It was not a choice between putting Elayne there but ruffling a few feathers, or not ruffling feathers but maybe not having Elayne there. He could have had Elayne there with no ruffled feathers. That's my point. If he had been more careful with his choice of words then no feathers would have been ruffled without affecting her chances of getting the throne. Ultimately, feathers were ruffled and to no gain as she had to take the throne herself.

 

Except for the fact that Rand did not know where Elayne is; and had to buy time and ensure that no one else takes the throne (legally or not) in the meantime.

 

In fact, he put that higher on his priority list than his plan to take out Sammael. He took Mat out of the Sammael plan and sent him after Elayne. So, Andor and Cairhien were near the top of his TG preparation plans.

 

Because you insist those dots could only be connected one way. Based on what we know that is true, based on what they know it isn't.

 

It is because you are certain that the people have the intelligence and awareness to know the intricacies of the Royal Palace behind the scene politics when it comes to Dyelin puppeteering Elayne, but refuse to give them the same intelligence and awareness when it comes to a battle in the inner city and Gaebril as one of the Foresaken and the disappearance of Morgase.

 

Actually, the issue of how much of a puppet they seemed is entirely relevant. Elayne is trying to avoid being seen as a puppet. That perception is something that could be harmful to her.

 

Egwene was never seen to rely heavily on Romanda or Lelaine.

 

The notion that Elayne's suffering from perception as a puppet is worse than Egwene's predicament is astounding! How many times was Egwene disrespected in public? How many times was she verbally bullied and abused? How many A.S. actually respected Egwene as an Amyrilin? What decision did Egwene dare take without approval from Leliane and/or Romanda prior to the war declaration? How many times did she tell them to agree on what she should say? Would she have done anything on her own prior to the oaths of fealty, and the spies on Romanda and Leliane?

 

Egwene was a puppet with the whole meaning of the word at the start. That is the reason she was raised in the first place: "biddable child."

 

While Elayne worried about an alleged perception; Egwene's status quo was "puppet;" and she had to claw her way into her role.

 

Has Elayne after her crowning suffered the same as Egwene after being raised Amyrlin?

 

What may confuse the discussion here is that the political institutions headed by Elayne and Egwene are different. Egwene had a Hall that was active in the daily operations and policies; whereas Elayne was a monarch with no formal assembly or counterweight (Assembly in Illian, Guild of Merchants, Panarch, etc.). She had more power than many monarchs and used it well; and should have felt more secure and confident in her role.

 

But why? After all, what is Intelligence for? Information on potential or actual threats or opportunities. And yet even with her spy network in its infancy, she is acting against potential threats and seizing on opportunities.

 

Elayne doesn't know where a rebel army (!!!!) is hiding. She doesn't know anything about what's happening in the Black Tower (or so it seems since she's thinking of using them post TG). She had to suffer from a campaign of warehouse burning for months without finding out who was behind it.

 

Elayne doesn't even have a break down of the houses in Cairhien, her intended target of expansion. She doesn't know friends from foes. She walked into an assassination attempt because of her lack of knowledge about the politics in Cairhien.

 

Information = Elayne's life and the stability of her rule.

[Suttree]

It is because you are certain that the people have the intelligence and awareness to know the intricacies of the Royal Palace behind the scene politics when it comes to Dyelin puppeteering Elayne, but refuse to give them the same intelligence and awareness when it comes to a battle in the inner city and Gaebril as one of the Foresaken and the disappearance of Morgase.

 

Because one would be rather obvious while the other has been shown from qoutes provided in text to not be. We have already providede how much the disappearance of Morgase was being questioned by the High Seats. They thought Rand was the one who did it.

 

How many months has Tuon been in charge of Ebou Dar? And how many months has Elayne been in charge of Caemlyn? She doesn't know where a rebel army (!!!!) is hiding. She doesn't know anything about what's happening in the Black Tower (or so it seems since she's thinking of using them post TG). She had to suffer from a campaign of warehouse burning for months without finding out who was behind it.

 

Not sure why you have looped back around here when it has already been established that we can not make comparisons between the two. Tuon stepped into a pre-existing situtation while Elayne has had to make do with whats at hand. Before you claim once again Dyelin would be better let us remind you that you haven't been able to conclusively offer why.

[Maleshub]

1- Because one would be rather obvious while the other has been shown from qoutes provided in text to not be. We have already provided how much the disappearance of Morgase was being questioned by the High Seats. They thought Rand was the one who did it.

 

2- Not sure why you have looped back around here when it has already been established that we can not make comparisons between the two. Tuon stepped into a pre-existing situtation while Elayne has had to make do with whats at hand. Before you claim once again Dyelin would be better let us remind you that you haven't been able to conclusively offer why.

 

1- My response to blaming Rand for Morgase was answered by Elayne's answer to Gawyn regarding their mother's disappearance. Months after the fact, Elayne investigated and can bring multiple witnesses to show that Morgase disappeared before Rand liberated Caemlyn. The High Seats didn't think to investigate the rumors when the trail was much warmer.

 

2- I apologize for the Tuon reference, deleted since then for its irrelevance to the discussion. As to the reasons why Elayne needed to prioritize a spynetwork more, here is what I just wrote in my post:

 

Elayne doesn't know where a rebel army (!!!!) is hiding. She doesn't know anything about what's happening in the Black Tower (or so it seems since she's thinking of using them post TG). She had to suffer from a campaign of warehouse burning for months without finding out who was behind it.

 

Elayne doesn't even have a break down of the houses in Cairhien, her intended target of expansion. She doesn't know friends from foes. She walked into an assassination attempt because of her lack of knowledge about the politics in Cairhien.

[Durinax]

1- Because one would be rather obvious while the other has been shown from qoutes provided in text to not be. We have already provided how much the disappearance of Morgase was being questioned by the High Seats. They thought Rand was the one who did it.

 

2- Not sure why you have looped back around here when it has already been established that we can not make comparisons between the two. Tuon stepped into a pre-existing situtation while Elayne has had to make do with whats at hand. Before you claim once again Dyelin would be better let us remind you that you haven't been able to conclusively offer why.

 

1- My response to blaming Rand for Morgase was answered by Elayne's answer to Gawyn regarding their mother's disappearance. Months after the fact, Elayne investigated and can bring multiple witnesses to show that Morgase disappeared before Rand liberated Caemlyn. The High Seats didn't think to investigate the rumors when the trail was much warmer.

 

2- I apologize for the Tuon reference, deleted since then for its irrelevance to the discussion. As to the reasons why Elayne needed to prioritize a spynetwork more, here is what I just wrote in my post:

 

Elayne doesn't know where a rebel army (!!!!) is hiding. She doesn't know anything about what's happening in the Black Tower (or so it seems since she's thinking of using them post TG). She had to suffer from a campaign of warehouse burning for months without finding out who was behind it.

 

Elayne doesn't even have a break down of the houses in Cairhien, her intended target of expansion. She doesn't know friends from foes. She walked into an assassination attempt because of her lack of knowledge about the politics in Cairhien.

to be fair knowing whose friend and who is foe is extremely hard in cairhien, and in fact she does get Norry to find her some prospective allies and works to get them on her side

[Maleshub]

to be fair knowing whose friend and who is foe is extremely hard in cairhien, and in fact she does get Norry to find her some prospective allies and works to get them on her side.

 

It was Norry and Dyelin who received the order to get the list of names. And it was at this juncture that Elayne thinks she needs a better network of eyes-and-ears, eventually.

 

But the issue is that she and her "allies" in Cairhien didn't get a scratch of information on the intended assassination plot. And it was clear from the text that the plot was not a singular, happen-chance, isolated incidence. It was an action organized by a faction or more than one person.

[Mr Ares]

Surely the reason for the AS to not risk Elayne - that Rand might come back - is reason enough for Elayne's rivals to delay? Further, Elayne starts as the strongest House. With Dyelin's supporters as well, Arymilla, Naean and Elenia are all in fairly weak positions. Their only advantage is being in Caemlyn. Yes, chaos can spread during that time, but that can work to her advantage - if she has mulitple foes, it benefits her to have them fight one another. Dyelin was near Caemlyn when first mentioned, I don't know how long she had been there, so potentially she could have been in Caemlyn in time to seize the capital and imprison the rebels.

 

If Rand doesn't make it known that he want's Elayne to be Queen, why should Elayne's rivals be afraid of his return? If he doesn't make his desires known, then as far as those rivals are concerned, it doesn't matter to Rand who the Queen is. On the other hand Elayne is the heir to the throne, so it would be very important for the Aes Sedai to keep her out of Rand's hands, until Rand is securely in their hands.

 

Elayne has Dyelin's support, but she doesn't have the support of those who want Dyelin for Queen. She presumably would have the support of the other four houses that sided with her in the books, but in a scenario in which a civil war has been going on for 2 months before her return, it's difficult to predict what would happen. Perhaps Dyelin herself would have been crowned, assuming she managed to put down any rebellion by the other houses, as Elayne is nowhere to be seen.

 

As for Dyelin, it would probably be harder for her to capture the rebels as the situation would be far more chaotic (with Rahvin suddenly gone, and seemingly no one in charge of the capital or the country. And while chaos between her rival would definitely be to Elayne's advantage, I was thinking more that it would be very harmful to Andor and therefore the light, which is why Rand staying in Andor and stabilizing things was important.

With no support it would be harder for them to make a strong push for the throne. Also, there is a difference between Elayne gone for months and showing no signs of coming back, and Elayne on her way back. Some of her prospective rivals might be inclined to follow a different path - ally with Elayne rather than seize power themselves. The situation on Elayne's return in this case could be very different to the situation she actually faced, but how different is difficult to judge - she might have found herself in a more favourable position.

 

 

The plan was suitable for its intended purpose. She was faced with changed circumstances. Her choices then were to continue with the plan, only with no backup, or to run away.

 

The original purpose was to question 1 imprisoned BA (intended purpose). In any case, I've got a feeling we'll just keep running around this circle for a while.

What's your point? I've already said that's what the plan was for. What about the important part of my post, starting with the next sentence? Circumstances changed. What should she do then? Run away or bluff? Or something else altogether? What is she supposed to do? The hazards of trying to run I have already pointed out. You haven't voiced any disagreement, so should I take it that a fireball in the back is a legitimate problem if she tries running?

 

 

We fundamentally disagree. It was not a choice between putting Elayne there but ruffling a few feathers, or not ruffling feathers but maybe not having Elayne there. He could have had Elayne there with no ruffled feathers. That's my point. If he had been more careful with his choice of words then no feathers would have been ruffled without affecting her chances of getting the throne. Ultimately, feathers were ruffled and to no gain as she had to take the throne herself.

 

Except for the fact that Rand did not know where Elayne is; and had to buy time and ensure that no one else takes the throne (legally or not) in the meantime.

No no no no no. It has nothing at all do with with buying time. It has nothing to do with knowing where Elayne is. The throne was not Rand's to give. By saying he was giving her the throne, he undermined her in the eyes of others. He could have had the same grip, had the same intentions, and simply done a better job of expressing himself. He didn't have to piss anyone off, and no good came of it. Even if there was ultimately no harm done, there was still no benefit in him saying he was giving her the throne, as if it was some shiny bauble. Now, he's young and hasn't been doing this that long, mistakes are only to be expected on occasion, but this was a mistake and it would be silly to pretent it wasn't.

 

 

Because you insist those dots could only be connected one way. Based on what we know that is true, based on what they know it isn't.

 

It is because you are certain that the people have the intelligence and awareness to know the intricacies of the Royal Palace behind the scene politics when it comes to Dyelin puppeteering Elayne, but refuse to give them the same intelligence and awareness when it comes to a battle in the inner city and Gaebril as one of the Foresaken and the disappearance of Morgase.

Actually, the problem is people don't know about all the behind the scenes intricacies. They have to put the dots together in the same way, and they might not end up with the right picture. If they had a complete view of what was going on, they would see there is no question of Elayne being Dyelin's puppet. The problem is that she might be perceived by people not in the know as being a puppet, and that perception undermines her. You are the one attributing omniscience to all and sundry, despite the themes of the series, about how information gets distorted. People don't know things, they jump to conclusions, those conclusions are wrong, they act on wrong conclusions.

 

 

 

Actually, the issue of how much of a puppet they seemed is entirely relevant. Elayne is trying to avoid being seen as a puppet. That perception is something that could be harmful to her.

 

Egwene was never seen to rely heavily on Romanda or Lelaine.

 

The notion that Elayne's suffering from perception as a puppet is worse than Egwene's predicament is astounding! How many times was Egwene disrespected in public? How many times was she verbally bullied and abused? How many A.S. actually respected Egwene as an Amyrilin? What decision did Egwene dare take without approval from Leliane and/or Romanda prior to the war declaration? How many times did she tell them to agree on what she should say? Would she have done anything on her own prior to the oaths of fealty, and the spies on Romanda and Leliane?

 

Egwene was a puppet with the whole meaning of the word at the start. That is the reason she was raised in the first place: "biddable child."

Yes, Egwene was intended as a puppet. But not Lelaine's, nor Romanda's. That's the point. Apples and oranges are two different things. There were two powerful factions within the Hall vying to control her, but she was not seen as a puppet of either.

 

But why? After all, what is Intelligence for? Information on potential or actual threats or opportunities. And yet even with her spy network in its infancy, she is acting against potential threats and seizing on opportunities.

 

Elayne doesn't know where a rebel army (!!!!) is hiding. She doesn't know anything about what's happening in the Black Tower (or so it seems since she's thinking of using them post TG). She had to suffer from a campaign of warehouse burning for months without finding out who was behind it.

 

Elayne doesn't even have a break down of the houses in Cairhien, her intended target of expansion. She doesn't know friends from foes. She walked into an assassination attempt because of her lack of knowledge about the politics in Cairhien.

 

Information = Elayne's life and the stability of her rule.

OK. Now, bearing in mind she would have to start from scratch, how much of a spy network could she have built up in this time, and how helpful would it have been in dealing with these issues? Could she have infiltrated the BT by now? Caught those burning warehouses? Built up a lot of information on the Cairhienin nobility? She has had a brief time, during which she must secure her rule and prepare for TG. Both of which she has done. Could she have done the same if she had spent all her time finding a new psymaster, or supervised the spying herself?

[MasterAblar]

With no support it would be harder for them to make a strong push for the throne. Also, there is a difference between Elayne gone for months and showing no signs of coming back, and Elayne on her way back. Some of her prospective rivals might be inclined to follow a different path - ally with Elayne rather than seize power themselves. The situation on Elayne's return in this case could be very different to the situation she actually faced, but how different is difficult to judge - she might have found herself in a more favourable position.

 

How would they know Elayne is on her way back though? They don't know where she is, so they wouldn't know where to look.

 

What the situation looks would like at her return, is very difficult to judge. It depends on how fast the rebels act, and how intellegently. If they can gather their armies before Dyelin captures them, things could get really bad, really fast. And while ultimately, infighting between her rivals would indeed put Elayne in a more favourable position, it would definitely cause greater harm to Andor.

[Maleshub]

What's your point? I've already said that's what the plan was for. What about the important part of my post, starting with the next sentence? Circumstances changed. What should she do then? Run away or bluff? Or something else altogether? What is she supposed to do? The hazards of trying to run I have already pointed out. You haven't voiced any disagreement, so should I take it that a fireball in the back is a legitimate problem if she tries running?

 

This point started with a question whether Elayne had a good plan for the dungeon episode (as good a plan as possible before hand). And my responses have been limited to that aspect. Her plan was to question 1 BA, not fight 3. I didn't want to go into the details of possibilities and untold threats and alternatives as that would lead us to a hugely speculative debate such as this:

 

Ares: You haven't voiced any disagreement, so should I take it that a fireball in the back is a legitimate problem if she tries running?

Theodril: No, all she had to do was weave a barrier to cover her escape.

 

And then we would continue with more speculation. Whereas the actual text says:

 

 

Elayne cursed to herself, forming weaves of her own. She slammed a shield at Eldrith right as she felt one come for her. Fortunately, she was holding Mat's ter'angreal. The weave unraveled, and the medallion grew cold in Elayne's hand. Elayne's own weave slid evenly between Eldrith and the Source, cutting her off. The glow of the Power winked out around her.

 

"What are you doing, you idiot!" Chesmal screeched. "You try to overthrow one of the Chosen? You'll see us all dead!"

 

"That's not one of the Chosen," Eldrith yelled back. Elayne belatedly thought to weave a gag of Air . "You've been duped! It —" Elayne got the gag in her mouth, but it was too late. Temaile—who had always looked too delicate to be a Black sister—embraced the Source and looked up. Chesmal's expression turned from horror to anger.

 

Elayne quickly tied off Eldrith's shield and began weaving another one. A weave of Air hit her. The foxhead medallion grew cold, and—blessing Mat for his timely loan—Elayne placed a shield between Chesmal and the Source.

 

Temaile gaped at Elayne, obviously stunned to see her weaves fail.

 

The BA initial reaction, which Elayne would have had to overcome if she fled immediately, was weaves of Air and Spirit that the medallion negated.

 

No no no no no. It has nothing at all do with with buying time. It has nothing to do with knowing where Elayne is. The throne was not Rand's to give. By saying he was giving her the throne, he undermined her in the eyes of others. He could have had the same grip, had the same intentions, and simply done a better job of expressing himself. He didn't have to piss anyone off, and no good came of it. Even if there was ultimately no harm done, there was still no benefit in him saying he was giving her the throne, as if it was some shiny bauble. Now, he's young and hasn't been doing this that long, mistakes are only to be expected on occasion, but this was a mistake and it would be silly to pretent it wasn't.

 

 

 

The problem with that is that it looks at the issue from the viewpoint of 6 houses out of 19 that select Andor's queen. Rand had the majority of other houses practically kissing his feet and hoping that he'd name one of their high seats queen. These houses never mentioned independence or that Rand didn't have the right to give the throne to anyone. They practically begged him to give the throne to someone; and could have done it legally with 10+ houses supporting his choice.

 

But let us use the fireball analogy from the point above here to explain the potentials Rand was facing with this issue:

 

This is a meeting between Rand and the good High Seats (GHS):

- Rand: I want to give the Throne to Elayne

- GHS (feathers ruffled): The Throne isn't a boon to be given, Dragon. We name Dyelin (or any other GHS) Queen.

- Rand: But Elayne is the Daughter Heir.

- GHS: Where is she? (We think you killed her too!)

- Rand: I don't know!

- GHS: Andor cannot afford this instability at this crucial time. If Elayne isn't here to take her throne; then we name Dyelin and we can secure the necessary support to crown her.

 

Would Rand accept that? Would Rand take the risk of that being thrown in his face?

 

Actually, the problem is people don't know about all the behind the scenes intricacies. They have to put the dots together in the same way, and they might not end up with the right picture. If they had a complete view of what was going on, they would see there is no question of Elayne being Dyelin's puppet. The problem is that she might be perceived by people not in the know as being a puppet, and that perception undermines her.

 

You are the one attributing omniscience to all and sundry, despite the themes of the series, about how information gets distorted. People don't know things, they jump to conclusions, those conclusions are wrong, they act on wrong conclusions.

 

On both points, you presume that the majority of the people will connect the dots the wrong way. My view is that some, a minority, will insist on seeing what isn't there. But most people have enough sense to ask questions and see evidence with their eyes (and in Gaebril's case listen to Palace staff accounts on how "under the light" Gaebril was and how all his not-so-good cronies fled after his death) to know that Rand really saved them from a very terrible ruler, who (BTW) wanted to destroy Andor's heritage of queen rule.

 

But maybe you're right! Maybe all Andorans are like Gawyn Trakand, taking a rumor from a peddler in the middle of no where and turning it into a flame of hatred against Rand.

 

Yes, Egwene was intended as a puppet. But not Lelaine's, nor Romanda's. That's the point. Apples and oranges are two different things. There were two powerful factions within the Hall vying to control her, but she was not seen as a puppet of either.

 

Egwene was seen as the puppet of the Hall. We can play on the differences between the political institutions of the WT and Andor for a long time with this. But the point I have failed in making is that Egwene's dealt with her puppeteer(s) differently from Elayne: inclusion vs. exclusion. And maybe it is because Egwene couldn't rid herself of the Hall; but in the end she wanted a strong Hall, not a weak one, in the WT.

 

1- OK. Now, bearing in mind she would have to start from scratch, how much of a spy network could she have built up in this time?

2- and how helpful would it have been in dealing with these issues?

3- Could she have infiltrated the BT by now?

4- Caught those burning warehouses?

5- Built up a lot of information on the Cairhienin nobility?

6- She has had a brief time, during which she must secure her rule and prepare for TG. Both of which she has done.

7- Could she have done the same if she had spent all her time finding a new psymaster, or supervised the spying herself?

 

1- Unless Andor had no network of eyes-and-ears to begin with, all she needed to do was find a good person to lead and rebuild, not build from scratch. Candidates include Dyelin, Thom (when he became available), or another good High Seat. Again, I fail to drive a simple point that I see this as a priority that should be placed higher than what it is portrayed to be; not as a whip to flay at Elayne's hide.

2- Very helpful; at least she'd know where a rebel army is hiding; and would deal with the threat.

3- Yes, she could have easily. The WT managed to gather information on the BT using merchants and other civilians. Why not the Crown?

4- Maybe, but more information would increase the chances.

5- That would seem to be politics 101: have a list of Cairhien houses and their relative strength, and contact them before taking the throne.

6- Information will make Elayne's rule more secure. That's the whole point of my failed discussion.

7- Yes; we have her PoV's enjoying plays and doing other things (e.g. researching and making Terangreal) that I think are less important than finding a spymaster.

 

I think that Elayne should have prioritized finding a spymaster more; and you think she could not have done so because of her circumstances. I'm willing to leave it at that.

[Suttree]

The problem with that is that it looks at the issue from the viewpoint of 6 houses out of 19 that select Andor's queen. Rand had the majority of other houses practically kissing his feet and hoping that he'd name one of their high seats queen.

 

False, the only houses that were acting as sycophants towards Rand were Anshar, Arawn, Baryn and Sarand. None of them would have had the support and once again, whoever had excpeted would have been looked down upon by the majority.

 

PoD

The Lion Throne is no bauble to be accepted from a man.” Dyelin nodded, as at self-evident truth. Which it was, to any Andoran.

[Maleshub]

False, the only houses that were acting as sycophants towards Rand were Anshar, Arawn, Baryn and Sarand. None of them would have had the support and once again, whoever had excpeted would have been looked down upon by the majority.

 

The number 4 is inaccurate. If you go back to LoC at the start where Rand is practicing the swords, you will find more house names present and kissing Rand's feet that the 4 you mentioned, most notably Caeren.

 

But I won't go into a research of Andoran houses boot-licking Rand and those who weren't. He had enough boot-lickers to dim his perception of the much-vaunted Andoran independence and counter the weight of the 5 "good" High Houses.

[Suttree]

False, the only houses that were acting as sycophants towards Rand were Anshar, Arawn, Baryn and Sarand. None of them would have had the support and once again, whoever had excpeted would have been looked down upon by the majority.

 

The number 4 is inaccurate. If you go back to LoC at the start where Rand is practicing the swords, you will find more house names present and kissing Rand's feet that the 4 you mentioned, most notably Caeren.

 

But I won't go into a research of Andoran houses boot-licking Rand and those who weren't. He had enough boot-lickers to dim his perception of the much-vaunted Andoran independence and counter the weight of the 5 "good" High Houses.

 

You are correct, I left out Nasin. He was so senile and quite obviously had no shot at the throne so I tend to forget him. Neverthelless that is far short of your"majority" claim outside the 6 more powerful houses. Linda has a good article at 13th Depository that breaks it down if you don't want to go back through the books.

[Maleshub]

You are correct, I left out Nasin. He was so senile and quite obviously had no shot at the throne so I tend to forget him. Neverthelless that is far short of your"majority" claim outside the 6 more powerful houses. Linda has a good article at 13th Depository that breaks it down if you don't want to go back through the books.

 

Thanks for the reference, I'll check it out.

 

The whole point was to show that Rand was not confronted by a unified Andoran front of independence.

[Mr Ares]

With no support it would be harder for them to make a strong push for the throne. Also, there is a difference between Elayne gone for months and showing no signs of coming back, and Elayne on her way back. Some of her prospective rivals might be inclined to follow a different path - ally with Elayne rather than seize power themselves. The situation on Elayne's return in this case could be very different to the situation she actually faced, but how different is difficult to judge - she might have found herself in a more favourable position.

 

How would they know Elayne is on her way back though? They don't know where she is, so they wouldn't know where to look.

 

What the situation looks would like at her return, is very difficult to judge. It depends on how fast the rebels act, and how intellegently. If they can gather their armies before Dyelin captures them, things could get really bad, really fast. And while ultimately, infighting between her rivals would indeed put Elayne in a more favourable position, it would definitely cause greater harm to Andor.

Presumably rumours of the Daughter Heirs return would spread, if anyone met them on the road. The AS have little reason to be secretive (also, it could be advantageous - no-one will trifle with AS lightly, after all. So being escorted by As gives her a degree of security).

 

What's your point? I've already said that's what the plan was for. What about the important part of my post, starting with the next sentence? Circumstances changed. What should she do then? Run away or bluff? Or something else altogether? What is she supposed to do? The hazards of trying to run I have already pointed out. You haven't voiced any disagreement, so should I take it that a fireball in the back is a legitimate problem if she tries running?

 

This point started with a question whether Elayne had a good plan for the dungeon episode (as good a plan as possible before hand). And my responses have been limited to that aspect. Her plan was to question 1 BA, not fight 3. I didn't want to go into the details of possibilities and untold threats and alternatives as that would lead us to a hugely speculative debate such as this:

 

Ares: You haven't voiced any disagreement, so should I take it that a fireball in the back is a legitimate problem if she tries running?

Theodril: No, all she had to do was weave a barrier to cover her escape.

See,t hat does at least vaguely relate to the point. The rest of your quote doesn't. Firstly, the question is did Elayne have a good plan? Yes. Did the circumstances she was facing change? Again, yes. So her plan was not equipped to deal with the new circumstances. So what does she do now? According to you, she should run away. Why? What benfit is there in this? What risk? As it is, she lost the Source after being tackled - even if she tried to run that could still happen. Even if fireballs are not a threat, a man could bring her down. Running is not risk free. So why is it preferable?

 

 

 

No no no no no. It has nothing at all do with with buying time. It has nothing to do with knowing where Elayne is. The throne was not Rand's to give. By saying he was giving her the throne, he undermined her in the eyes of others. He could have had the same grip, had the same intentions, and simply done a better job of expressing himself. He didn't have to piss anyone off, and no good came of it. Even if there was ultimately no harm done, there was still no benefit in him saying he was giving her the throne, as if it was some shiny bauble. Now, he's young and hasn't been doing this that long, mistakes are only to be expected on occasion, but this was a mistake and it would be silly to pretent it wasn't.

 

The problem with that is that it looks at the issue from the viewpoint of 6 houses out of 19 that select Andor's queen. Rand had the majority of other houses practically kissing his feet and hoping that he'd name one of their high seats queen. These houses never mentioned independence or that Rand didn't have the right to give the throne to anyone. They practically begged him to give the throne to someone; and could have done it legally with 10+ houses supporting his choice.

Leaving aside that Rand didn't have the majority, Rand still had no reason to annoy the other Houses. There is no benefit to it. There is no gain to his antagonism of the Andoran Houses by saying he will give the throne. Had he phrased it more diplomatically, he would have done nothing to hurt Elayne's chances, done nothing to loosen his own grip, not alienated anyone.

 

 

Actually, the problem is people don't know about all the behind the scenes intricacies. They have to put the dots together in the same way, and they might not end up with the right picture. If they had a complete view of what was going on, they would see there is no question of Elayne being Dyelin's puppet. The problem is that she might be perceived by people not in the know as being a puppet, and that perception undermines her.

 

You are the one attributing omniscience to all and sundry, despite the themes of the series, about how information gets distorted. People don't know things, they jump to conclusions, those conclusions are wrong, they act on wrong conclusions.

 

On both points, you presume that the majority of the people will connect the dots the wrong way. My view is that some, a minority, will insist on seeing what isn't there. But most people have enough sense to ask questions and see evidence with their eyes (and in Gaebril's case listen to Palace staff accounts on how "under the light" Gaebril was and how all his not-so-good cronies fled after his death) to know that Rand really saved them from a very terrible ruler, who (BTW) wanted to destroy Andor's heritage of queen rule.

Again, theme of the series. People misinterpret facts, only get half the story, rumours grow and change, with the truth becoming increasingly muddy with time and distance. Also, even if Gaebril was not exactly the most wonderful human being who had ever lived, that doesn't make him a Chosen. That was the point. People have nothing besides Rand's word.

 

 

Yes, Egwene was intended as a puppet. But not Lelaine's, nor Romanda's. That's the point. Apples and oranges are two different things. There were two powerful factions within the Hall vying to control her, but she was not seen as a puppet of either.

 

Egwene was seen as the puppet of the Hall. We can play on the differences between the political institutions of the WT and Andor for a long time with this. But the point I have failed in making is that Egwene's dealt with her puppeteer(s) differently from Elayne: inclusion vs. exclusion. And maybe it is because Egwene couldn't rid herself of the Hall; but in the end she wanted a strong Hall, not a weak one, in the WT.

You've just changed your tune. Also, how does including Dyelin help with the perception that she relies too heavily on her? Apples and oranges.

 

 

1- OK. Now, bearing in mind she would have to start from scratch, how much of a spy network could she have built up in this time?

2- and how helpful would it have been in dealing with these issues?

3- Could she have infiltrated the BT by now?

4- Caught those burning warehouses?

5- Built up a lot of information on the Cairhienin nobility?

6- She has had a brief time, during which she must secure her rule and prepare for TG. Both of which she has done.

7- Could she have done the same if she had spent all her time finding a new spymaster, or supervised the spying herself?

 

1- Unless Andor had no network of eyes-and-ears to begin with, all she needed to do was find a good person to lead and rebuild, not build from scratch. Candidates include Dyelin, Thom (when he became available), or another good High Seat. Again, I fail to drive a simple point that I see this as a priority that should be placed higher than what it is portrayed to be; not as a whip to flay at Elayne's hide.

2- Very helpful; at least she'd know where a rebel army is hiding; and would deal with the threat.

3- Yes, she could have easily. The WT managed to gather information on the BT using merchants and other civilians. Why not the Crown?

4- Maybe, but more information would increase the chances.

5- That would seem to be politics 101: have a list of Cairhien houses and their relative strength, and contact them before taking the throne.

6- Information will make Elayne's rule more secure. That's the whole point of my failed discussion.

7- Yes; we have her PoV's enjoying plays and doing other things (e.g. researching and making Terangreal) that I think are less important than finding a spymaster.

1.If there was a network of eyes and ears, wy have we heard nothing of it? Also, other than Thom why do you consider these people suitable for the position of spymaster?

2.The rebel army is not currently a threat. What threats would have been dealt with?

3.The WT remains largely ignorant of what is going on inside the BT.

5.You expect an organisation starting from nothing to have built up a large body of information on quite a few people over a short space of time. Unrealistic.

6.Little information. Doubtful it would help that much.

 

 

I think that Elayne should have prioritized finding a spymaster more; and you think she could not have done so because of her circumstances. I'm willing to leave it at that.

No, I think that while she might have been able to prioritize finding a spymaster more, I don't think it would have done much to help, given that said spymaster would have to start from nothing (so far as we know), he or she would only have a short time to work, and TG will undoubtedly be very disruptive, thus losing many of the spies you do place.

[Valley of Death]

I'd say Elayne's was more interesting. But when Egwene was captured and how she handled it made me go from not liking her to loving her and were some of my favorite chapters to read in the whole series

[Maleshub]

1- See,t hat does at least vaguely relate to the point. The rest of your quote doesn't. Firstly, the question is did Elayne have a good plan? Yes. Did the circumstances she was facing change? Again, yes. So her plan was not equipped to deal with the new circumstances.

 

2- So what does she do now? According to you, she should run away. Why? What benfit is there in this? What risk? As it is, she lost the Source after being tackled - even if she tried to run that could still happen. Even if fireballs are not a threat, a man could bring her down. Running is not risk free. So why is it preferable?

 

1- That was simply what I've been trying to say from the start.

 

2- The risk in not running away is her life. She is alive by Daved Hanlon's mercy. He wants to enjoy her first! As to being tackled, how could that happen if she covers her escape with a barrier. On the other hand, the benefit of a retreat is to raise the alarm to seal the all escape routes; and get help to secure the palace and dungeons again.

 

Leaving aside that Rand didn't have the majority, Rand still had no reason to annoy the other Houses. There is no benefit to it. There is no gain to his antagonism of the Andoran Houses by saying he will give the throne. Had he phrased it more diplomatically, he would have done nothing to hurt Elayne's chances, done nothing to loosen his own grip, not alienated anyone.

 

True, Rand didn't have the majority; but he had a significant weight to counter the absent 6 houses supporting Dyelin for the Throne.

 

But the question remains with Rand suspected of killing Morgase and Elayne and with Elayne incommunicado, would he have accepted Dyelin or another for the Throne? Would Rand have taken that risk being put before him?

 

Again, theme of the series. People misinterpret facts, only get half the story, rumours grow and change, with the truth becoming increasingly muddy with time and distance. Also, even if Gaebril was not exactly the most wonderful human being who had ever lived, that doesn't make him a Chosen. That was the point. People have nothing besides Rand's word.

 

So, you think that Andorans are like Gawyn Trakand, taking a rumor from a peddler in the middle of nowhere are turning it into a flame of hatred against the savior of mankind, the Dragon Reborn.

 

I don't see the people of Randland as that dumb. I see a strong sense of independence and freedom of expression (Andorans!) as a sign of common sense and awareness.

 

You've just changed your tune. Also, how does including Dyelin help with the perception that she relies too heavily on her? Apples and oranges.

 

Apples: Egwene did not distance and diminish the role of her puppeteers.

Oranges: Elayne felt the need to reduce the role of her alleged puppeteer.

 

1.If there was a network of eyes and ears, wy have we heard nothing of it? Also, other than Thom why do you consider these people suitable for the position of spymaster?

2.The rebel army is not currently a threat. What threats would have been dealt with?

3.The WT remains largely ignorant of what is going on inside the BT.

5.You expect an organisation starting from nothing to have built up a large body of information on quite a few people over a short space of time. Unrealistic.

6.Little information. Doubtful it would help that much.

 

No, I think that while she might have been able to prioritize finding a spymaster more, I don't think it would have done much to help, given that said spymaster would have to start from nothing (so far as we know), he or she would only have a short time to work, and TG will undoubtedly be very disruptive, thus losing many of the spies you do place.

 

1- Are you saying that the largest kingdom in Randland did not have a network of eyes-and-ears to start with (pre-Gaebril)? As to why others are suitable; because the are capable individuals not distracted by other official functions.

2- If Sarand's army is not a threat, why did Elayne have to buy Elenia with estates in Cairhien? Of the 3 stripped of titles and estates, Sarand was the only one granted a 2^nd chance in Cairhien. Coincidence? I don't think so.

3- The BT is on Andoran soil; And Elayne has a festering pocket of powerful Darkfriends within 4 leagues of her capital. Who should pay more attention to it, WT or Elayne?

5- You expect a nation to accept a Queen for the sole reason that her mother was impregnated by a man dead decades earlier? Of course, Elayne should build up her information on the houses of the country she wants to rule (especially those who want her dead!) and the people whose fealty she wants. She has to do her homework!

 

As to your final comment that TG will disrupt a spymaster's work, we are talking about the institutions of a country, the foundations. Still, Elayne is already thinking, planning, and acting on several post-TG projects!

[Suttree]

1- See,t hat does at least vaguely relate to the point. The rest of your quote doesn't. Firstly, the question is did Elayne have a good plan? Yes. Did the circumstances she was facing change? Again, yes. So her plan was not equipped to deal with the new circumstances.

 

Which is of course fairly ludicrous expecting that she would be able to plan for those unforeseen circumstances. It is quite clear the original plan was safe and rational, you can not hold against her what happened after which was bad luck. Now if you want to say she didn't adapt to the circumstances that is fine, although it is rather beside the original point.

 

So, you think that Andorans are like Gawyn Trakand, taking a rumor from a peddler in the middle of nowhere are turning it into a flame of hatred against the savior of mankind, the Dragon Reborn.

 

This part of your arguement has been exceptionally weak from the start. We have proven with quotes from the text multiple times how distorted the information was around this particular battle and what they thought happened to Morgase. Despite that you keep repeating the same interpretation with zero to back it up. It has nothing to do with hatred against the DR(although he is distrusted most places) and everything to do with the Andorans not knowing what actually happened and wanting him out of Andor.

[Thrasymachus]

The Dragon Reborn has never, in any of the popular culture we've seen, been depicted as some kind of beneficent savior of mankind, in fact, rather the opposite. Stories of the Dragon Reborn were used to frighten children. He is expected to Break the world again. He brings chaos and death in his wake. That he will fight and beat the Dark One is part of the canticle, but the part viewed with the most distrust and suspicion. In short, the Dragon Reborn is viewed by most people as a monster on the same level as the Forsaken, that just happens to be the one destined to re-seal the Dark One. None of the nobles in any of the cities he's conquered or subdued showed much liking or trust in Rand, rather, they followed him because they were afraid of him, they were awed by his power and his destiny, or manipulated by his ta'veren-ness. But many nobles also rebelled, they wanted to prevent him from Breaking the world again and from severing the ties that bind, and they didn't wish to follow a mad male channeler. By your formulation, Theodril, the only rebels against the Dragon Reborn should be Darkfriends, but we know that's not the case, Darlin and Caraline being the obvious examples. You can't ignore the fact that most people in most nations are incredibly prejudiced against the Dragon Reborn.