Nynaeve...Hero of the Horn

[Thrasymachus]

It is opinion, and it is also logic. The Heroes of the Horn are not always or necessarily heroes in the traditional sense. They are "correctives" the Wheel weaves in to correct and maintain the Pattern. The Pattern itself follows a loose "template" for want of a better term, so that the weaving of the Pattern in an Age resembles itself when it comes around to that Age again. The "correctives" are woven in so that the Pattern continues to fit the template. If the Pattern requires a certain event or set of events, a specific weaving in order to maintain its coherence with the template, and in order to attain that specific weaving it requires a particular type of individual doing particular kinds of things in particular times and places, then that particular thread is the Hero, chosen out to be woven in to correct the pattern, and maintain the Pattern's following of the template. But a "particular type of individual" is an archetype, and the soul which inhabits this archetype is the soul of that individual who's presence and activity was so essential to the correct weaving of the Pattern, and which will be reborn into that archetype when that type of individual is again required to correct the weaving.

 

Every statement of fact in the above paragraph is directly supported by interviews with the author(s) and editors, and I can provide the quotations if you like, though I believe you can find many of them in this thread itself.

 

Ta'veren are not "correctives" so much as happenstances. They occur when the Pattern is "woven around" one or more specific threads, when the placement of those "ta'veren threads" dictates the placement of all or many of the threads surrounding it. It need not occur to push the Pattern back into alignment with the template. Indeed, because the template itself is not absolute, it doesn't dictate the placement of every thread, ta'veren may be more or less irrelevant to the template, to the overall "shape" of the Pattern. Of course, they may not be irrelevant as well, ta'veren may threaten to push the Pattern out of alignment with the template, or sweep the pattern back into shape, and those highly relevant ta'veren will also likely be the strongest and the most likely to also be Heroes. But the special threads, the Heroes woven in for a corrective purpose, don't need to be ta'veren, and ta'veren don't need to be Heroes, a perfectly ordinary thread may become the "center" round which other threads are woven for a time.

[dexterryu]

It is opinion, and it is also logic. The Heroes of the Horn are not always or necessarily heroes in the traditional sense. They are "correctives" the Wheel weaves in to correct and maintain the Pattern. The Pattern itself follows a loose "template" for want of a better term, so that the weaving of the Pattern in an Age resembles itself when it comes around to that Age again. The "correctives" are woven in so that the Pattern continues to fit the template. If the Pattern requires a certain event or set of events, a specific weaving in order to maintain its coherence with the template, and in order to attain that specific weaving it requires a particular type of individual doing particular kinds of things in particular times and places, then that particular thread is the Hero, chosen out to be woven in to correct the pattern, and maintain the Pattern's following of the template. But a "particular type of individual" is an archetype, and the soul which inhabits this archetype is the soul of that individual who's presence and activity was so essential to the correct weaving of the Pattern, and which will be reborn into that archetype when that type of individual is again required to correct the weaving.

 

Every statement of fact in the above paragraph is directly supported by interviews with the author(s) and editors, and I can provide the quotations if you like, though I believe you can find many of them in this thread itself.

 

Ta'veren are not "correctives" so much as happenstances. They occur when the Pattern is "woven around" one or more specific threads, when the placement of those "ta'veren threads" dictates the placement of all or many of the threads surrounding it. It need not occur to push the Pattern back into alignment with the template. Indeed, because the template itself is not absolute, it doesn't dictate the placement of every thread, ta'veren may be more or less irrelevant to the template, to the overall "shape" of the Pattern. Of course, they may not be irrelevant as well, ta'veren may threaten to push the Pattern out of alignment with the template, or sweep the pattern back into shape, and those highly relevant ta'veren will also likely be the strongest and the most likely to also be Heroes. But the special threads, the Heroes woven in for a corrective purpose, don't need to be ta'veren, and ta'veren don't need to be Heroes, a perfectly ordinary thread may become the "center" round which other threads are woven for a time.

 

I'm pretty sure your description of Hero of the Horn is almost exactly the description that characters in the books have used for Ta'veren.

[Thrasymachus]

Ta'veren are specifically described as those threads 'round which the Wheel weaves other threads in its Pattern. Since the Wheel is doing the weaving, then it would be unlikely for the Wheel to purposefully weave threads around a central thread in contravention of it's Pattern. But, in its weaving, there may be threads 'round which other threads have been woven, without any specific intention of purpose of the Wheel to weave threads around those central threads. They "happened to be" ta'veren, rather than the Wheel choosing them out to be ta'veren. The difference is one of perspective. When looking to the past, one can see the threads that are central, 'round which, for a time, other threads are woven, but one cannot always tell whether the centrality of those ta'veren threads is due to a plan, or just happenstance. When looking to the future, one can pinpoint the places and times where a ta'veren will be needed to push or pull the weaving to fit the Pattern, and these ta'veren are part of the corrective mechanisms of the Wheel.

 

Heroes are special threads, as if they were made of a different material. If "normal" threads are made of wool, then Hero threads would be cashmere or silk. The different qualities of these threads allow different patterns of weaving, patterns that would not be possible if the thread were of the normal quality. Heroes (and normal threads) are what is being woven. Ta'veren is a way of weaving.

[dexterryu]

Ta'veren are specifically described as those threads 'round which the Wheel weaves other threads in its Pattern. Since the Wheel is doing the weaving, then it would be unlikely for the Wheel to purposefully weave threads around a central thread in contravention of it's Pattern. But, in its weaving, there may be threads 'round which other threads have been woven, without any specific intention of purpose of the Wheel to weave threads around those central threads. They "happened to be" ta'veren, rather than the Wheel choosing them out to be ta'veren. The difference is one of perspective. When looking to the past, one can see the threads that are central, 'round which, for a time, other threads are woven, but one cannot always tell whether the centrality of those ta'veren threads is due to a plan, or just happenstance. When looking to the future, one can pinpoint the places and times where a ta'veren will be needed to push or pull the weaving to fit the Pattern, and these ta'veren are part of the corrective mechanisms of the Wheel.

 

Heroes are special threads, as if they were made of a different material. If "normal" threads are made of wool, then Hero threads would be cashmere or silk. The different qualities of these threads allow different patterns of weaving, patterns that would not be possible if the thread were of the normal quality. Heroes (and normal threads) are what is being woven. Ta'veren is a way of weaving.

 

Here is RJ's description of how Ta'veren work.

 

RJ's blog 5 October 2005 "YET ANOTHER, IT SEEMS"

 

- The Wheel creates ta’veren at need, making someone who is already alive one. You aren’t born ta’veren. Can you imagine being around a ta’veren who is teething?

It would be possible for a Darkfriend or Forsaken to be made ta’veren, but it seems unlikely. Ta’veren are part of the Wheel’s self-correcting mechanism. When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more ta’veren are created. I can’t really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta’veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern. Ta’veren can oppose one another, when their conflict is what the Wheel “sees” as the necessary corrective.

[Thrasymachus]

And where, precisely, does what RJ say contradict what I say? He gives the forward-looking perspective of ta'veren. When you look at what ta'veren will be in the future, then they are corrective mechanisms, or more correctly, the weaving which creates the ta'veren is the corrective, the ta'veren simply stands at the center of that weaving. When looking at the past, at what has already been woven, sometimes you can see that the weaving was done to bring the Pattern back in line with the template, but sometimes, the weaving and thus the ta'veren has no obvious connection to the overall shape of the Pattern. Again, ta'veren are aspects of the weaving, not of the threads in themselves. Threads are not ta'veren, positions within the weaving are ta'veren, and it is often happenstance that those positions are filled by this thread rather than that one. The rare exceptions, when it matters which thread stands in the center of the weaving, is when that thread is the thread of a Hero, where you need not only the special weaving that creates ta'veren, but the special thread that can be woven in ways other, normal threads cannot be woven.

[Smilingjack]

Sorry to break off from this, but WHERE does it say Rand is a Hero of the Horn?

 

I too do not really understand that logic of Rand being a Hero of the Horn.

Hawkwing said, when the horn had been sounded, that the "they must come to the horn, but they must follow the banner, and the dragon".

 

Either way.. it wouldnt make sence to call the Heroes of the Horn, if Rand was dead and among them.

[Suttree]

Sorry to break off from this, but WHERE does it say Rand is a Hero of the Horn?

 

I too do not really understand that logic of Rand being a Hero of the Horn.

Hawkwing said, when the horn had been sounded, that the "they must come to the horn, but they must follow the banner, and the dragon".

 

Either way.. it wouldnt make sence to call the Heroes of the Horn, if Rand was dead and among them.

 

We know Rand's soul is a HotH because RJ said so and Hawkwing recognizes him at Falme as LTT.

 

 

 

Interview: Oct 22nd, 1998

 

TPOD Signing Report - Pam Basham (Paraphrased)

Pam Basham

 

Regarding the Dragon and the Dragon Reborn (and Graendal's thoughts about Ishamael's musings):

"Is this soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

Robert Jordan

 

 

This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.

Pam Basham

 

In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme—because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)

[Thrasymachus]

I can understand not understanding the logic of the Horn of Valere and its relationship to the Heroes. In interviews, RJ tells us that if the Horn were blown by the side opposite to the Dragon, there'd be some kind of rift in the Pattern. Apparently, both the fact that the Heroes must follow the Hornsounder and that they must follow the Banner and the Dragon are true. We're not given much, if anything, to explain the origin of the Horn of Valere, nor why it is tied to the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel and reside in the World of Dreams. All I've found in the interview database is what is clearly some sort of joke interview, after RJ's death, which purports to explain that the Horn of Valere is actually Dizzy Gillespie's trumpet with the cocked-up bell, that has subsequently been elongated. Originally, apparently, when blown, it summoned the great bebob legends as a back-up band. The bell was modified into a curve, and the Old Tongue inscription were added in the 2nd Age. And instead of calling bebob legends, it became able to summon legends of any sort, such is the Power of Bebob.

[Finnssss22]

I can understand not understanding the logic of the Horn of Valere and its relationship to the Heroes. In interviews, RJ tells us that if the Horn were blown by the side opposite to the Dragon, there'd be some kind of rift in the Pattern. Apparently, both the fact that the Heroes must follow the Hornsounder and that they must follow the Banner and the Dragon are true. We're not given much, if anything, to explain the origin of the Horn of Valere, nor why it is tied to the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel and reside in the World of Dreams. All I've found in the interview database is what is clearly some sort of joke interview, after RJ's death, which purports to explain that the Horn of Valere is actually Dizzy Gillespie's trumpet with the cocked-up bell, that has subsequently been elongated. Originally, apparently, when blown, it summoned the great bebob legends as a back-up band. The bell was modified into a curve, and the Old Tongue inscription were added in the 2nd Age. And instead of calling bebob legends, it became able to summon legends of any sort, such is the Power of Bebob.

 

That's not exactly what RJ said.

It's not that someone on the opposite side can't blow the Horn ever. It's that someone on the opposite side couldn't blow the Horn at that particular moment at Falme without causing a "rift in the pattern".

 

At that specific time, the Horn had to blown at Falme, by an ally of the Dragon reborn, the Dragon reborn had to be there as did the Dragon banner.

[Thrasymachus]

I suppose that's one way to interpret that interview. It seems that the people present at that interview were under some confusion of how to interpret RJ's comments themselves, so if someone else interprets them in a different way, or is just straight up confused by them, I find it hard to blame them. In any event, it's clear that it is possible to create some sort of paradox involving the Heroes, the Horn and the Dragon Reborn, which implies that the rules governing them are not entirely mutually consistent. In other words, they can be hard to understand.

[Agitel]

Hawking comments on how tightly that moment at Falme was being woven by the Wheel when he first appears. I think that's why Jordan said if the other side had blown it at that moment there'd have been a "rift" or whatever.