Simple question, enlighten me

[Mercer]

Alright, I'm probably forgetting something stupidly simple here, but I can't put my finger on it, so if you could...

 

In The Shadow Rising (sorry, too tired now to search the page, I will a bit later) Lanfear says to Rand, while in his rooms in the Stone of Tear, something along the lines of, '(looking at Callandor) There are only two stronger a man can use'...I believe the Choedan Kal is/are the strongest, so what is the other sa'angreal Lanfear was refering to that a man can use? Or was it simply a typo refering to both the male and the female parts of the Choedan Kal? I've read all the way through the series of a few times, but I forget things all the time, so maybe I'm just missing something blatant. Appreciated.

[icspots]

I'm at work so I don't have the books handy, but I believe it was, "Only two stronger were ever made." So it's referring to both the male and female Choedan Kal.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, it is referring to the Choedan Kal.

[Cybertrolloc]

Nothing ever turned up about the other one. I'd say throwaway line.

[Luckers]

Actually its not. It specifies that the two others were usable by men, so it is not the choedan Kal. The other was likely lost or intentionally destroyed during the breaking or the War of Power itself. It could be buried somewhere, but i doubt we are going to see it...

[Mercer]

^ Ahh, see I assumed that. Either that RJ had a plan in mind when he wrote the it, and tossed the idea of the second one, or that the second one simply wasn't going to come into play. I doubt, with just one book remaining, it will come into play.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, it could be argued that Rand did use the female Choedan Kal while he was linked with Nynaeve, but whatever.

 

It either means there's another mysterious male sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor that we'll almost certainly never see, or it was a reference to the Choedan Kal, which Lanfear continually brought up to Rand and the acquisition of which was a focal point of The Shadow Rising in particular.

 

Either way, it shouldn't really affect the story at this point.

[Mercer]

^ What I think, as well, especially now that I read what was actually there.

 

Lanfear, Shadow Rising, pg 182:

"There are only two more powerful a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists."

 

So whether RJ had a plan for the other one? No clue.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yeah, having re-read the quote now, I guess the Choedan Kal don't fit, since Lanfear knows that both of them exist, meaning that she is referencing another, probably lost, extrememly powerful male sa'angreal.

 

I was, it seems, flat out wrong. It does not reference the two Choedan Kal.

[lummy]

I remember reading somewhere on the forums that LTT had a ring that was a sa'angreal, something to do with Tamylrin or something.

 

I'm sure I read that this ring was a very powerful sa'angreal could this what Lanfear is referring to?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Lews Therin wore the Ring of Tamyrlin, which symbolized his leadership of the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends ... but I don't recall seeing anywhere that definitively said what it is. Its been speculated that it was a sa'sangreal or a ter'angreal ... but all that is just speculation. It would seem unlikely to me that it would be a specifically male sa'angreal, since there is no indication that leadership of the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends was limited to males.

[icspots]

Oh well, I was wrong too. It's been awhile since my most recent reread.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The specification isn't that the *angreal is limited to being used by a male, it's:

 

Lanfear, Shadow Rising, pg 182:

"There are only two more powerful a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists."

 

The Ring of Tamyrlin may be usable by both sexes.

 

Since it is possible unto probable that LTT was wearing the Ring when he Zotted himself out of existence, it probably no longer exists.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Ring of Tamyrlin may be usable by both sexes.

 

Um, where did you get THAT? Every single angreal and sa'angreal weve seen ... every single one ... is usable only by males or only by females.

[Luckers]

Well there was concideration early on based on some misleading comments by Suine about the effect of Callandor... she says things like 'with that in your hands you could crumple the walls of Tar Valon', and that the black ajah must get their hands on it, seemingly implying that she thought they could use it if they did, but this isn't so. As Robert says we know absolutely the angreal and sa'angreal have a singular sex that can use them.

[Bob T Dwarf]

First of all, The Ring of Tamyrlin is a semi-mythical artifact known only through legend.

 

Nobody knows exactly what it is or what it does. It may be angreal, sa'angreal, or ter'angreal. It might even be something else entirely, ala Portal Stones; an artifact from an even earlier Age than the AoL. It could even be simply a ring, with no power other than the symbolic power of the office of First Among Servants.

 

The only real hints we have about it are that it was some kind of badge of office for whomever was foremost among the Hall of Servants. Since the AoL was an Age of sexual equality, that person would not always have been a male.

 

A single-sex badge of office doesn't work in such a setting.

[TheDiceAgain...]

Agreed, Bob. We don't know enough about it to make any real guesses as to what it was, though it makes sense that it would have some thing to do with the power(probably a ter'angreal, sorta like the Crystal Throne, maybe?).

 

We've never seen a uni-sex angreal or sa'angreal and I very much doubt that such a thing exists. Having a badge of office in an age of gender equality that favors one sex over the other makes no sense.

[algspkr]

The Ring of Tamyrlin may be usable by both sexes.

 

Um, where did you get THAT? Every single angreal and sa'angreal weve seen ... every single one ... is usable only by males or only by females.

I thought of it being an angreal, or sa'angreal useable by both sexes, the solution I came up with is that two angreal were made in the shape of large cut gems, and then worked into the ring inself.

 

And I highly doubt that the ring is a sa'angreal, I don't see the AoL AS getting that wrapped up in power itself, but it maybe an angreal to ensure the leader of the AS can do all the basic weaves that require a considerable amount of power, like Traveling.

[TheDiceAgain...]

But from what we know or can at least infer, no one who lacked the strength to Travel would ever have become the leader of the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends. THe ratio of channelers was higher then and as such there would have been more relatively powerful channelers as well. While they may not have put as much importance on strength in the power as the White Tower does today, you almost certainly would have certainly had to exhibit a minimum level of strength in the power to rise to that sort of prominence.

[Luckers]

Actually no, strength was irrelevant in the age of legends. The ability to channel was a respected one, but not a decisive one. It was actions that led to power and prestige.

[Bob T Dwarf]

If strength in the Power was truly irrelevant, then there is no necessity for the Ring to be an object of the Power.

 

If reputation, based on the merit of your thought and actions was enough to secure the status of First Among Servants, then there is no need for the badge of that status to enhance or amplify strength in the Power, because strength in the Power is irrelevant.

 

A Ring of Tamyrlin that was one of the two most powerful (*angreal) that a man can use would be a case of gilding the Lily. Pure ostentation.

 

So, either the Ring is a mundane ring, or the need for the First Among Servants to demonstrate strength in the Power was relevant.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Did some additional digging and found this on encyclopaedia.wot. It reportedly comes from the Glossary contained in Vol 2 of the YA edition of "The Eye of the World" ( emphasis added ):

Ring of Tamyrlin (TAHM-ehr-lin): a legendary ring, believed mythical by most people, worn by the leader of the Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends. Stories about the Ring of Tamyrlin include that it was an angreal or sa'angreal or ter'angreal of immense power. It supposedly was named after the first person to learn how to tap into the Source and channel the One Power, and in some tales, was actually made by that man or woman. Despite what many Aes Sedai say, no one knows whether it was a man or a woman who first learned to channel. Some believe that the present title of Amyrlin is a corruption of Tamyrlin.

So, it is or was a unisex *angreal. Were it not, it would clearly have indicated the sex of the first channeler.

 

Also, I was wrong earlier. LTT was NOT wearing the Ring when he killed himself. "The Eye of the World - Prologue":

Elan Morin grimaced. "Look at you," he said scornfully. "Once you stood first among the Servants. Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin, and sat in the High Seat. Once you summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion. Now look at you!"

Clearly, LTT is not wearing the Ring at this point, and he kills himself almost immediately thereafter.

 

Given that we have no description whatsoever of the Ring, there is a slight possibility that it is the ring that Graendal found among Sammael's stash after Sam was killed.

[icspots]

So, it is or was a unisex *angreal. Were it not, it would clearly have indicated the sex of the first channeler.

 

It says that it was believed to be an object of the power, not that it was. Not discounting, just playing devil's advocate.

 

Given that we have no description whatsoever of the Ring, there is a slight possibility that it is the ring that Graendal found among Sammael's stash after Sam was killed.

 

This time I'm disagreeing. If it were the ring of Tamyrlin then I think Graendal would've thought that while we were in her POV about finding it as she would obviously recognize it.

 

Personally I think that if the ring of Tamyrlin were an object of the power that it would be a Ter'angreal so it could be used by either sex.

[Mercer]

^ If it was thought a mythical object by many, it is possible (if unlikely, I agree) that she wouldn't recognize it.

[icspots]

^ If it was thought a mythical object by many' date=' it is possible (if unlikely, I agree) that she wouldn't recognize it.[/quote']

 

It's mythical now 3,000 years after the breaking. It wasn't mythical in the Age of Legends. Then LTT was Tamyrlin, head of the Aes Sedai, and Graendal (known as Kamarile Maradim Nindar at the time) was Aes Sedai.

 

It would be like a present day Aes Sedai not knowing what the seven colored stole, and flame of Tar Valon are on sight.