Knowing what we know now about strength in the Power

[MasterAblar]

Both survived, so I wonder how that comes? Someone must have escaped the other one somehow. If he isn't lying, then I'd like to know how RJ thought about that situation. (That probably won't happen.)

 

ComicCon 15 July 2005 - Diomedes reporting

 

He went on to say that the Forsaken do not like to think of themselves as weaker than anyone else, and, due to their arrogance and ambition, will tend to understate other's abilities and overstate their own. He concluded by saying that, given these weaknesses in character that the Forsaken possess, any information that the Forsaken provide should be considered highly suspect.

"overstate their own"

 

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

RJ: RAFO. I don't go into that kind of thing. I know where they are. I also know they are highly unreliable. None of them is going to admit that anyone is that much stronger than they are, even when you are inside their heads. Don't take everything they say as the absolute truth or unbiased observation.

 

 

Aginor is said to never have held a field command, but he was given free rein with his experiments. I don't know how much he fought the opposite sex, since the DO probably would have valued his skills in the lab. If he killed channelers, then how strong were they and how did it happen?

 

Regardless of that, LTT is still a man - presumably with a man's dexterity. Both surviving a meeting doesn't tell us much when we don't know how that comes.

 

Aginor swatted aside Moiraine since he was only interested in Rand & the Eye, so that's another survival that doesn't actually tell us that one survivor was as good a dueller as the the other survivor. One survivor << the other survivor

 

Right, you can't really trust what the Forsaken claim about themselves. Which is why I said that Aginor might be exagerating. That said, I doubt he made the whole thing up, and he probably would not boast about a crushing defeat. We don't know anything about his fight with LTT other than it happened and both survived. But that is already rather impressive to me, even if it turns out it wasn't as even as he tries to make it sound. LTT was a man but from the little we know of him, he was clearly exceptional in times of peace as well as war. He must have been a pretty good fighter as we know that he defeated Ishamael at the gates of Paaran Disen, he bested Sammael numerous times (Lanfear mocks Sammael over this), and, in light of what we learn in Rand's meeting with the borderlanders, he also fought Demandred at least once. All the Forsaken, with the exception of Lanfear, clearly dislike, and even loathe him, but they also all respect his abilities, and few would dare fight him head on. So to me surviving a fight with him, even if the details are not known, is rather impressive.

 

As for Aginor, it's true his position would tend to keep him out of direct fights with other channelers. But then again he ended up fighting LTT in the Hall of Servants, and that hardly happens by accident. Even without great experience in dueling however, I still can't see Moiraine fighting him like Rand did in PoD. Rand only survived because weaves coming from LTT, and Rand had already fought the Forsaken several times by then.

[Nightstrike]

"Besting Sammael numerous time" ... One should keep in mind that they led forces who fought each other. They didn't have to be face to face.

 

I actually do think the Forsaken are likely to boast about what was really a defeat for the Shadow. We don't know how it comes that both lives. Maybe they weren't alone in the Hall of the Servants, if the event really was what he claimed it was.

 

Aginor and Moiraine both lived. If Moiraine had been a Forsaken (and Aginor lost his memory), then Moiraine could tell his weak & fearful companions that she met him "stroke for stroke".

[Entreri]

I find it highly unlikely that Aginor met LTT stroke for stroke. We certainly don't have any other Forsaken confirming this...and if that is the case, other Forsaken would show more respect for Aginor. No other Forsaken fears or respects Aginor outside of his Einstein science.

 

We know all the Forsaken fear Ishamael/top dog and he was defeated again and again by LTT.

 

Lanfear may mock Sammael about his defeats, but she would do even worse against LTT outside of TAR.

[cookiecrisp]

I don't think any Aes Sedai could have matched Aginor at that point, even with an angreal.

 

Any channeler from the AoL was an incredible threat in the earlier->middling books. We had Sammael bat away multiple Ashaman and kill soldiers hundred at a time in CoS.

 

In WH, it took circles of 3 or angreal to put up a decent fight against Forsaken. Most of these circles or channelers took the bad end of the engagement then too.

 

 

 

In the terms of Alivia versus Cyndane, Alivia is the strongest woman introduced so far and had Egwene-levels of talent in learning new weaves. She took the bad end of the engagement and survived the battle injured.

 

Cyndane isn't anywhere near Aginor's strength post-finnland, and Alivia is possibly the strongest of the Light's (if she is that) female channelers. Knowledge from the AoL was kind of a big deal in combat.

[Nightstrike]

Cyndane isn't anywhere near Aginor's strength post-finnland, and Alivia is possibly the strongest of the Light's (if she is that) female channelers. Knowledge from the AoL was kind of a big deal in combat.

But what makes you so sure about that? There's a RJ quote that kind of puts all that in doubt. He implied that they thought they were so superior, but then the "primitives" surprised them with things they'd never thought possible. Maybe it's their superiour strength that is their greatest advantage. Maybe there are some Aes Sedai with skill/dexterity/Talents that puts them in a bad light. Weaker, but just as good in many ways ...

 

Week 15 Question: What does the Dark One view as the worst punishment he can inflict on his minions: Killing them as painfully as possible? Balefire? Mindtrap? Being continually resurrected to suffer at his hand for eternity? Something we haven't seen yet?

 

Robert Jordan Answers:

...

 

But he also operates under a constraint that did not exist in the Age of Legends. At that time, about 3% of the population could learn to channel to some extent, though not all chose to -- the training program took time, and being able to channel carried with it certain obligations that not everyone wanted to undertake -- but that still meant there were, at a minimum, hundreds of thousands of people in the world who could channel, and more likely millions. A large pool of possible recruits. Break a tool or decide it isn't working right and throw it out, because there is an endless supply of similar tools waiting on the shelf. That might be said to have been his attitude. In the here-and-now of the books, that figure is about 1%, and of that 1%, very, very few have any idea that they could learn to channel, much less have any training at all. Here-and-now, the pool of possible recruits is tiny.

 

Also, while the Forsaken themselves have realized that these primitives have discovered how to do things with the Power that they themselves cannot, or perhaps can once they learn how but never dreamed of doing until they found that the weaves existed here-and-now, they still think of people in the here-and-now as primitives, and their attitudes filter through to the Dark One, who believes that his people from the age of Legends are in all practical ways better -- for which read better trained, more capable, and thus better able to serve him efficiently and effectively -- than the people of the present time. And he is right. In a way. They are certainly better trained, with a much wider knowledge, at least in some areas. Some of their skills are absolutely useless in the society they are forced to live in. Aginor was a genius in biology and genetics, but in this world, he had no way to make the tools to make the tools to make the tools…. Well, you get the idea. Pity the poor chip designer dropped into the seventeenth century.

Millions of channelers, half were Forsaken, and these are 13 of the strongest. They are extremely strong, in other words. Aginor was a scientist and not a fighter, but he was probably not a whole lot weaker than LTT. I don't know whether Aginor or Lanfear was stronger, but Lanfear is probably both more skilled and has more dexterity.

[Sharaman]

Aginor is apparently only a little below LTT and EMT in pure strength. But Sammael and Demandred are both probably better fighters.

Aginor isn't into duelling o9r fighting tactics as such, as the Dashiva PoV before Elzaa flames him makes clear.

[MasterAblar]

"Besting Sammael numerous time" ... One should keep in mind that they led forces who fought each other. They didn't have to be face to face.

 

Lanfear appeared to be refering to more personal fights between the two. For instance she said that if Sammael finaly beat him he could get rid of his scar. They were speaking of Rand taking out the Forsaken one by one in the first place, so I'd say she was speaking of personal duels rather than battles between LTT and Sammael.

 

I actually do think the Forsaken are likely to boast about what was really a defeat for the Shadow. We don't know how it comes that both lives. Maybe they weren't alone in the Hall of the Servants, if the event really was what he claimed it was.

 

Well, personally I think that if it had been a defeat he would have just pretended it had never happened, rather than tell a complete lie. I still think he was exagerating and there were probably details about the fight that he did not boast about. Perhaps LTT was fighting more than one person, or perhaps he forced Aginor to flee. In any case I imagine it's more of an exageration of his performance in the fight than an outright lie.

 

Also Aginor was only speaking to Rand when he made the boast. They had already seperated from the rest of the party.

 

I find it highly unlikely that Aginor met LTT stroke for stroke. We certainly don't have any other Forsaken confirming this...and if that is the case, other Forsaken would show more respect for Aginor. No other Forsaken fears or respects Aginor outside of his Einstein science.

 

Yeah, it probably wasn't as even as he tries to make it sound. But he did fight him and live to tell the tale, just like Sammael, Demandred, and Ishamael, so even if it turns out he was actually losing the fight, he still managed to survive.

 

But what makes you so sure about that? There's a RJ quote that kind of puts all that in doubt. He implied that they thought they were so superior, but then the "primitives" surprised them with things they'd never thought possible. Maybe it's their superiour strength that is their greatest advantage. Maybe there are some Aes Sedai with skill/dexterity/Talents that puts them in a bad light. Weaker, but just as good in many ways ...

 

Millions of channelers, half were Forsaken, and these are 13 of the strongest. They are extremely strong, in other words. Aginor was a scientist and not a fighter, but he was probably not a whole lot weaker than LTT. I don't know whether Aginor or Lanfear was stronger, but Lanfear is probably both more skilled and has more dexterity.

 

The 3rd agers have discovered some new things, like healing severing, warder bonds, unweaving their weaves, but overall their knowledge still clearly pales compared to the Forsaken's. Look at how much the girls learned from Moghedien, or how much Rand learned from Asmodean. In fact it's only thanks to LTT passing down knowledge to Rand, that Rand manages to survive or defeat his opponents. It isn't just greater strength. At the Cleansing the Forsaken faced cirles, but thanks to their skill they managed to to kill a few of their opponents, and Alivia was injured inspit of all the objects of power she had.

 

As for Lanfear, it's hard to say if she would have fared better than Aginor in a fight with LTT. RJ said that if Rand had let LTT guide him, he could have beaten Lanfear. Of course LTT seems to beat every one so that's not very helpful.

[Nightstrike]

Well, personally I think that if it had been a defeat he would have just pretended it had never happened, rather than tell a complete lie. I still think he was exagerating and there were probably details about the fight that he did not boast about. Perhaps LTT was fighting more than one person, or perhaps he forced Aginor to flee. In any case I imagine it's more of an exageration of his performance in the fight than an outright lie.

If Moiraine said the same thing about her and Aginor, then it wouldn't be 100% made-up either. It would still be a lie, but with a little truth in it (she did face him a moment or two). A lie can serve a purpose ...

 

Yeah, it probably wasn't as even as he tries to make it sound. But he did fight him and live to tell the tale, just like Sammael, Demandred, and Ishamael, so even if it turns out he was actually losing the fight, he still managed to survive.

Moiraine survived, but she's much, much weaker than Aginor.

 

The 3rd agers have discovered some new things, like healing severing, warder bonds, unweaving their weaves, but overall their knowledge still clearly pales compared to the Forsaken's. Look at how much the girls learned from Moghedien, or how much Rand learned from Asmodean. In fact it's only thanks to LTT passing down knowledge to Rand, that Rand manages to survive or defeat his opponents. It isn't just greater strength. At the Cleansing the Forsaken faced cirles, but thanks to their skill they managed to to kill a few of their opponents, and Alivia was injured inspit of all the objects of power she had.

Yeah, useful things like how to kill trollocs in heaps and so on. I don't know any particular duelling tricks that Moghedien passed on. She wasn't particularly skilled in duelling - Nynaeve beat her! Nynaeve who (for a long time) couldn't see other people channeling unless she was angry. Moiraine had much more experience than Nynaeve, and nothing says that Aginor was any more skilled than Moghedien.

[Entreri]

"RJ said that if Rand had let LTT guide him, he could have beaten Lanfear. Of course LTT seems to beat every one so that's not very helpful."

 

Given that Rand has not gained his full strength in the Power back then (as shown in the book 6 prologue) and that Lanfear was using a near sa'angreal in the fight hints at the Power difference between men and women being significant.

 

Rahvin was certain he or Sammael would overwhelm Lanfear and the women would link.

 

This dexterity bonus of the women can only go so far and have we even seen it combat? Nyaneve, greatest female healer, whatever she can do, so can Flinn.

 

If I were to stat them:

 

LTT @ 100

 

Aginor @ 95-99

 

Lanfear @70-75 +5-10 dexterity bonus, thus in combat at most she is at around 85 effectiveness. Women being weaker, they get to link, to bring everything back to balance in the Force.

 

Aginor being almost LTT is certainly much stronger than Lanfear in the Power.

[Byzantine279]

Don't forget that Rand was using an angreal of some strength himself, Entreri.

[MasterAblar]

If Moiraine said the same thing about her and Aginor, then it wouldn't be 100% made-up either. It would still be a lie, but with a little truth in it (she did face him a moment or two). A lie can serve a purpose ...

 

It's not a 100% but it's nearly a 100%. This is pretty clearly a defeat for Moiraine. The only reason she survives is because Aginor has no interest in her. If that was the result of his fight with LTT, I don't he think he would bother making an enormous lie about it. He had some pretty big accomplishments in his life. If he's making this pretention then he must believe it on some level. Pretending a losing battle was really a tie by being a little dishonest is something I could see a Forsaken (or anyone really) doing, but pretending a clear cut defeat, like in Moiraine's case, was a tie, seems pointless to me, when he could have simply stated any of his other accomplishments. Basically I feel that when the Forsaken are being a little dishonest with themselves, it has to be about something that they can actually believe since the whole point is to reasure themselves. I don't think it's possible to be so dishonest with themselves as to pretend a clear defeat was a tie. To me it would be like when in Monty Python, the dark knight tries to call his fight with Arthur a tie when he's actually only got his head and torso left. The Forsaken lie to themselves but not that badly.

 

Moiraine survived, but she's much, much weaker than Aginor.

 

She survived because Aginor had absolutely no interest in her. Demandred, Sammael, and Ishamael were all leaders for the Shadow, and Aginor is the one who created all the shadowspawn. LTT would have every interest in eliminating any one of them.

 

Yeah, useful things like how to kill trollocs in heaps and so on. I don't know any particular duelling tricks that Moghedien passed on. She wasn't particularly skilled in duelling - Nynaeve beat her! Nynaeve who (for a long time) couldn't see other people channeling unless she was angry. Moiraine had much more experience than Nynaeve, and nothing says that Aginor was any more skilled than Moghedien.

 

Inverting weaves, hiding their ability to channel. But that's just duelling. Asmodean constantly laments how little Rand knows, and all the Forsaken consider the Aes Sedai to be half taught children. There has to be a reason for it. The Forsaken typically fear the Aes Sedai's numbers, compared to their own, rather than their abilities.

 

Neither Moghedien nor Aginor specialised in fighting it seems. Moghedien acted in the shadows. That said her defeat at Nyneave's hands was due more to her arrogance than anything else. A single inverted weave and Nyneave would have lost. She didn't consider Nyneave a real threat, and just attacked her head on.

 

Moiraine and Nyneave's experience both pale in comparison with Moghedien's and Aginor's. So does their knowledge. And Aginor is far stronger than Moghedien. RJ said that if it had come to a fight between Aginor and Balthamel over the Eye, Aginor would have killed him. Considering Balthamel was quite strong himself, and Aginor was not a particularly good fighter, I think that shows both how strong Aginor is, and that strength does have a certain importance in battle.

 

Aginor being almost LTT is certainly much stronger than Lanfear in the Power.

 

Oh, I agree, I was just saying that it's really not possible to compare how effective the Forsaken, or anyone else, are in combat by using LTT since he basically just beats everyone

 

Don't forget that Rand was using an angreal of some strength himself, Entreri.

 

Rand did not start using it until the very end of the fight though, and by that time Lanfear had her angreal as well.

[Nightstrike]

She survived because Aginor had absolutely no interest in her. Demandred, Sammael, and Ishamael were all leaders for the Shadow, and Aginor is the one who created all the shadowspawn. LTT would have every interest in eliminating any one of them.

Why wouldn't the Shadow have interest in killing the enemy if the Light has interest in killing the enemy? There could be all sorts of explanations for why people survive an encounter, if there really was a hostile encounter.

 

Inverting weaves, hiding their ability to channel. But that's just duelling. Asmodean constantly laments how little Rand knows, and all the Forsaken consider the Aes Sedai to be half taught children. There has to be a reason for it. The Forsaken typically fear the Aes Sedai's numbers, compared to their own, rather than their abilities.

Aginor and Moiraine couldn't see each other's channeling. They knew the other could channel, and they fought each other on equal terms in that regard.

[YoungKing]

Ok just some thoughts.

 

Is there a connection between strength in the OP and how much you can weave? Doing a reread, I remember Egwene in book 4 saying she could weave four(I think) weaves at the same time, and that was later in the book. Rand, I believe, in the part where he shields Elayne and Egwene weaves something like 12 at the same time, without really knowing what he is doing. The thing is, Egwene says that weaving four is more than almost anyone in the Tower can do. It's true that you really don't see all these dexterous Aes Sedia with decades and even centuries of channelling come close to Rand in the amount of different weaves he can handle at the same time.

 

So would an angreal allow more weaving? Or not?

 

I personally don't think there is a big advantage when it comes to being able to weave, as a channeller. Brute strength followed by experience seems to be the two biggest factors in how well a channeller fares in a fight.

 

It's also hard to tell the strength difference between men and women. Looking at it from Randland perspective, men are probably on average stronger than men would be today, due to the greater struggle to survive and do things manually. Women, due to what seems to be a more domesticated lifestyle in Randland are probably a little stronger on average than women today, but I think this leads to a greater disparity between men and women in our world vs Randland. This leads me to believe that a man in the OP is significantly stronger than a woman if what Asmodean suggests is true. Maybe I'm reaching, but it's good to put it into perspective.

 

I personally find the channelling strengths in the books suit the wonder girls too much for my liking. I mean, Logain is almost as strong as a book 11 Rand in pure strength, so he could easily handle a decent amount of Aes Sedai and is quite a bit stronger than Nyneave. I feel like he should have been able to break her shield if he really wanted to.

 

And again. Egwene.Elayne are the two strongest Aes Sedai in 1000 years. Who are a lot stronger than Moiraine/Elaida, who are strong Aes Sedai in their own right. Nyneave is lower end Forsaken(female) strength so is actually quite a lot stronger than E and E, who in turn isn't really that close to Rand in strength. There's no way Moiraine with an angreal is close to a Forsaken strength. Maybe, MAYBE Egwene could be close with a strong angreal, but even then I have my doubts.

 

Personally, I think a full strength Rand is so much stronger than a full strength Egwene, that even with an angreal Rand would win easily, and I think he could probably take on a good 10-12 Aes Sedai at Moiraines strength head on, at full strength in say book 11 or 12.

 

Thats just me though.