What's with this Nae'blis thing, anyway

[Didgya]

Bobby's right, the Forsaken act stupid. Yet everyday people in the real world do stupid things to either advance a belief or reinforce their beliefs. People are people and will ignore what seems obviously incompatable to many others (Cognitive dissonance) CD explanation and I think that what RJ is tapping into with the way the Chosen act. Just the words used to describe them, "Forsaken" "Chosen" are just determined by one's point of view. Do you think that they see themselves as fosaken? No, it seems that even using the term around them is taboo, breaking your cognitive dissonance is an unpleasant reality check. So are they stupid or all too human? (what movie is that from anyway?)

[Eht Slat Meit]

 

I guess that's why I've always had the impression that the final fight is simply a distraction from whatever the real plan is. Something to keep everyone busy while the DO and Shaidar Haran manufacture circumstances.

As Verin said, the DO doesn't fight the way people think he does and there are at least two quotes I can think of to say that Rand is not going to fight the DO at all. They may be red herrings...

The FS have been thoroughly manipulated every step of the way and scrificed as necessary. It IS silly and they ask themselves whether the DO has some alternative plan, but they have to follow orders or they're toast.

Meanwhile, Rand was being forced into a mind-set and may have been turned at VoG, he's also been forced to the next level of his powers.

So, I fully expect a subtle and dastardly plan to emerge in the last book, one that relies on Rand displaying the carefully pre-conditioned emotional responses as well as the full capabilities of the Dragon

 

That's all pretty wooly I know, I don't have a full theory - just random thoughts that keep bothering me

But as you say, it would all just be too silly otherwise

 

I don't think it's woolly at all, and makes a good deal of sense on a certain level.

 

Consider that Rand is ta'veren and HoTH (as are Perrin and Mat, in all probability), and that ta'veren and HOTH are corrective mechanisms put up as corrective mechanisms by the Pattern, independently and together.

 

Now, if the DO understands this fundamental facet of the Pattern, and understands exactly what causes it to throw out these corrective mechanisms, it is suddenly possible for the DO to manipulate these mechanisms, the most important of them being Rand. Action - reaction. DO pushes here, Rand fires back, because it's his nature to do so.

 

Just like a piece on a sha'rah board.

 

What that ultimate destination is, is a matter of theory and speculation, but what of the action & reaction? What can the DO do to make Rand react to him, and in as self-destructive a way as possible?

 

Send his Chosen agents against him.

 

Have them hound him from the start, chasing him over hill and dale, alienating him from potential allies, and pushing him along his course.

 

Everyone knows the signs. They're a matter of prophecy. The Stone of Tear, the People of the Dragon, et al. The Forsaken and the DO know this too. So they'll know where to push, where to be, and theoretically the DO knows how to use them to the most devastating effect, understanding Rand's nature best, through thousands of years of experience.

 

I recall reading something that I haven't since been able to recover about the Forsaken balefiring certain areas of the Pattern, and it seems to me that if something so fundamental to the defense of the Pattern as Rand were truly representing its needs, that might be one way to manipulate him to a place where the DO wants him. There are a pair of awkward and contradictory quotes on it in the TL interview database that suggest that this might be a method of not necessarily destroying the Pattern, but cause Rand to react the way the DO wants.

 

Just some rambling thoughts to add to the mix.

[amg]

 

I guess that's why I've always had the impression that the final fight is simply a distraction from whatever the real plan is. Something to keep everyone busy while the DO and Shaidar Haran manufacture circumstances.

As Verin said, the DO doesn't fight the way people think he does and there are at least two quotes I can think of to say that Rand is not going to fight the DO at all. They may be red herrings...

The FS have been thoroughly manipulated every step of the way and scrificed as necessary. It IS silly and they ask themselves whether the DO has some alternative plan, but they have to follow orders or they're toast.

Meanwhile, Rand was being forced into a mind-set and may have been turned at VoG, he's also been forced to the next level of his powers.

So, I fully expect a subtle and dastardly plan to emerge in the last book, one that relies on Rand displaying the carefully pre-conditioned emotional responses as well as the full capabilities of the Dragon

 

That's all pretty wooly I know, I don't have a full theory - just random thoughts that keep bothering me

But as you say, it would all just be too silly otherwise

 

I don't think it's woolly at all, and makes a good deal of sense on a certain level.

 

Consider that Rand is ta'veren and HoTH (as are Perrin and Mat, in all probability), and that ta'veren and HOTH are corrective mechanisms put up as corrective mechanisms by the Pattern, independently and together.

 

Now, if the DO understands this fundamental facet of the Pattern, and understands exactly what causes it to throw out these corrective mechanisms, it is suddenly possible for the DO to manipulate these mechanisms, the most important of them being Rand. Action - reaction. DO pushes here, Rand fires back, because it's his nature to do so.

 

Just like a piece on a sha'rah board.

 

What that ultimate destination is, is a matter of theory and speculation, but what of the action & reaction? What can the DO do to make Rand react to him, and in as self-destructive a way as possible?

 

Send his Chosen agents against him.

 

Have them hound him from the start, chasing him over hill and dale, alienating him from potential allies, and pushing him along his course.

 

Everyone knows the signs. They're a matter of prophecy. The Stone of Tear, the People of the Dragon, et al. The Forsaken and the DO know this too. So they'll know where to push, where to be, and theoretically the DO knows how to use them to the most devastating effect, understanding Rand's nature best, through thousands of years of experience.

 

I recall reading something that I haven't since been able to recover about the Forsaken balefiring certain areas of the Pattern, and it seems to me that if something so fundamental to the defense of the Pattern as Rand were truly representing its needs, that might be one way to manipulate him to a place where the DO wants him. There are a pair of awkward and contradictory quotes on it in the TL interview database that suggest that this might be a method of not necessarily destroying the Pattern, but cause Rand to react the way the DO wants.

 

Just some rambling thoughts to add to the mix.

It all makes sense on some level. However, I have a question. What does HoTH mean?

[Eht Slat Meit]

It all makes sense on some level. However, I have a question. What does HoTH mean?

 

Hero of the Horn. Not sure exactly if Rand's HoTH identity is the Fisher King or Dragon, or if any of the HoTHs actually have one - example, Mat is the Trickster (?), Gaidal and Birgitte, a pair that might be called the Lovers together, or the Archer and Swordsman independently, and so on. There's something hinting at Perrin being another, Dunedain I think, but I don't recall the exact undertones. Anyway, each of them seems to have a specific purpose, maybe chosen by the Pattern, and spun out according to their specific nature.

[amg]

Interesting. So, the blowing of the horn only called a few of the heros back, because if Perrin, Mat, and Rand are HoTH, they were already here right?

[Eht Slat Meit]

Interesting. So, the blowing of the horn only called a few of the heros back, because if Perrin, Mat, and Rand are HoTH, they were already here right?

 

That's my understanding of it, yes. Any Heroes still held beyond the Grave are bound by the Call of the Horn.

 

Birgitte might be affected, but she's a special case, and I'm not even sure if she technically has a "real" body.

[msbee]

I recall reading something that I haven't since been able to recover about the Forsaken balefiring certain areas of the Pattern, and it seems to me that if something so fundamental to the defense of the Pattern as Rand were truly representing its needs, that might be one way to manipulate him to a place where the DO wants him. There are a pair of awkward and contradictory quotes on it in the TL interview database that suggest that this might be a method of not necessarily destroying the Pattern, but cause Rand to react the way the DO wants.

 

Do you mean the comments on Sporkster's 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule - Through Balefire' theory? ( LOC Pr - Demandred's balefire orders). I thought I'd look them up when I read your post, and guess what, I can't find all of them either.

There were two versions of the contradictory quotes, with ever so slightly different wording, which to my mind, answered the contradiction. But now I can only find the one set - RJ comments in 2005 here

I looked at this before though and my understanding of it is that yes, Demandred's orders were to sow chaos and hasten the unravelling of the Pattern, but this was not to be achieved through balefire. Coincidentally though, they have used balefire and the consequences of that have helped to destabilize the pattern too. “WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?" Isn't a clue to Demandred's insructions, it quantifies Demandred's loyalty - Are you loyal enough to destroy the world if I demand it, Demandred?

Moridin would

 

I suspect we're all underestimating the Fisher King effect too. BS said the “land and the Dragon are one.” If you make the Fisher King mad, bad and dangerous, and the Fisher King is as one with the land, how much balefire do you really need?

Make him channel as much as possible, magnify the taint in his mind, pile on the pressure, cause him anguish. Send in the blinkered FS with their plots and watch him unravel.

(I'm not saying the DO is relying on the Fisher King effect exclusively though)

 

In LOC 6, Sammael tells Graendal that Ishamael had claimed that the DO would almost as soon turn LTT as he would break free. I'd love to know why. If the Fisher King was turned, then he'd start destroying the world without anyone having to lift a finger. But he can get Moridin to do that, so there must be more to this than just annihilation. If it's control he wants then he could just direct the Chosen to do the necessary instead of letting them snipe at each other.

Maybe the Dragon is the only person capable of releasing him fully?

[Bob T Dwarf]

I recall reading something that I haven't since been able to recover about the Forsaken balefiring certain areas of the Pattern, and it seems to me that if something so fundamental to the defense of the Pattern as Rand were truly representing its needs, that might be one way to manipulate him to a place where the DO wants him. There are a pair of awkward and contradictory quotes on it in the TL interview database that suggest that this might be a method of not necessarily destroying the Pattern, but cause Rand to react the way the DO wants.

 

Do you mean the comments on Sporkster's 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule - Through Balefire' theory? ( LOC Pr - Demandred's balefire orders). I thought I'd look them up when I read your post, and guess what, I can't find all of them either.

There were two versions of the contradictory quotes, with ever so slightly different wording, which to my mind, answered the contradiction. But now I can only find the one set - RJ comments in 2005 here

I looked at this before though and my understanding of it is that yes, Demandred's orders were to sow chaos and hasten the unravelling of the Pattern, but this was not to be achieved through balefire. Coincidentally though, they have used balefire and the consequences of that have helped to destabilize the pattern too. “WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?" Isn't a clue to Demandred's insructions, it quantifies Demandred's loyalty - Are you loyal enough to destroy the world if I demand it, Demandred?

Moridin would

 

I suspect we're all underestimating the Fisher King effect too. BS said the “land and the Dragon are one.” If you make the Fisher King mad, bad and dangerous, and the Fisher King is as one with the land, how much balefire do you really need?

Make him channel as much as possible, magnify the taint in his mind, pile on the pressure, cause him anguish. Send in the blinkered FS with their plots and watch him unravel.

(I'm not saying the DO is relying on the Fisher King effect exclusively though)

 

In LOC 6, Sammael tells Graendal that Ishamael had claimed that the DO would almost as soon turn LTT as he would break free. I'd love to know why. If the Fisher King was turned, then he'd start destroying the world without anyone having to lift a finger. But he can get Moridin to do that, so there must be more to this than just annihilation. If it's control he wants then he could just direct the Chosen to do the necessary instead of letting them snipe at each other.

Maybe the Dragon is the only person capable of releasing him fully?

 

This may be pure fiction or it may be rooted in fact. There is an old Sir Walter Scott story about one of the Stuart Pretenders to the throne of England. He is living in exile in France and his mistress is the daughter of the Lord Chamberlain serving the sitting King of England. A group of powerful nobles is growing increasingly unhappy with this King's rule and quietly send a delegation to the Pretender to make known the groups feelings. They have only one condition for openly declaring their support. They fear the mistress is spying for her father and that they would be revealed, rounded-up, convicted of treason, and executed before their rebellion could get started. So, if His Majesty would just kindly send this mistress away, they can all get down to the serious business of replacing this detested King.

 

The Pretender, who has no particular love for the mistress, she is merely a convenience, sends the delegation away, telling them that he will not send his mistress away, because, "As King it is for me to command you, not the other way 'round." A very canny man. He had seen all the way through to the logical conclusion to the problem and realized that if he gave-in on any point now, he was putting himself in a position where he would have to give in on many things later. Setting himself up to be a figurehead, not truly the Monarch.

 

Like Scott's Pretender, it may be more important to the DO to command the allegiance and obedience of the Dragon than it is to be free and in control of all existence. That the entire world, including the Dragon, accept its authority than to only command the scraps of existence that remain after Tarmon Gaidon is over.

 

However, none of that explains Shaidar Haran's behavior. Throughout the series, SH is diligently working to get Rand killed which hardly fits with the other premise unless there is much more to SH than appears. More than a hollow vessel waiting for the DO to impart it with some of its own essence. SH may have his own plans for who really rules when all the dust settles.

[BrainFireBob]

My personal thought is that the Nae'blis isn't a position, it's a specific person, the Shadow's Champion, and that the DO has to find them each cycle of the Wheel. Again, the twin dragon idea in Korean mythology- there's the Dark Dragon out there somewhere, equal to the Dragon. But the Wheel doesn't really want the DO to know who it is. So he sets up this cutthroat competition that only the best can win.

 

I used to think it was a statistical winnowing process to find a match for the Dragon. Once it came out there really was a shadow champion, then I adjusted my thinking.

[msbee]

I recall reading something that I haven't since been able to recover about the Forsaken balefiring certain areas of the Pattern, and it seems to me that if something so fundamental to the defense of the Pattern as Rand were truly representing its needs, that might be one way to manipulate him to a place where the DO wants him. There are a pair of awkward and contradictory quotes on it in the TL interview database that suggest that this might be a method of not necessarily destroying the Pattern, but cause Rand to react the way the DO wants.

 

Do you mean the comments on Sporkster's 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule - Through Balefire' theory? ( LOC Pr - Demandred's balefire orders). I thought I'd look them up when I read your post, and guess what, I can't find all of them either.

There were two versions of the contradictory quotes, with ever so slightly different wording, which to my mind, answered the contradiction. But now I can only find the one set - RJ comments in 2005 here

I looked at this before though and my understanding of it is that yes, Demandred's orders were to sow chaos and hasten the unravelling of the Pattern, but this was not to be achieved through balefire. Coincidentally though, they have used balefire and the consequences of that have helped to destabilize the pattern too. “WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?" Isn't a clue to Demandred's insructions, it quantifies Demandred's loyalty - Are you loyal enough to destroy the world if I demand it, Demandred?

Moridin would

 

I suspect we're all underestimating the Fisher King effect too. BS said the “land and the Dragon are one.” If you make the Fisher King mad, bad and dangerous, and the Fisher King is as one with the land, how much balefire do you really need?

Make him channel as much as possible, magnify the taint in his mind, pile on the pressure, cause him anguish. Send in the blinkered FS with their plots and watch him unravel.

(I'm not saying the DO is relying on the Fisher King effect exclusively though)

 

In LOC 6, Sammael tells Graendal that Ishamael had claimed that the DO would almost as soon turn LTT as he would break free. I'd love to know why. If the Fisher King was turned, then he'd start destroying the world without anyone having to lift a finger. But he can get Moridin to do that, so there must be more to this than just annihilation. If it's control he wants then he could just direct the Chosen to do the necessary instead of letting them snipe at each other.

Maybe the Dragon is the only person capable of releasing him fully?

 

This may be pure fiction or it may be rooted in fact. There is an old Sir Walter Scott story about one of the Stuart Pretenders to the throne of England. He is living in exile in France and his mistress is the daughter of the Lord Chamberlain serving the sitting King of England. A group of powerful nobles is growing increasingly unhappy with this King's rule and quietly send a delegation to the Pretender to make known the groups feelings. They have only one condition for openly declaring their support. They fear the mistress is spying for her father and that they would be revealed, rounded-up, convicted of treason, and executed before their rebellion could get started. So, if His Majesty would just kindly send this mistress away, they can all get down to the serious business of replacing this detested King.

 

The Pretender, who has no particular love for the mistress, she is merely a convenience, sends the delegation away, telling them that he will not send his mistress away, because, "As King it is for me to command you, not the other way 'round." A very canny man. He had seen all the way through to the logical conclusion to the problem and realized that if he gave-in on any point now, he was putting himself in a position where he would have to give in on many things later. Setting himself up to be a figurehead, not truly the Monarch.

 

Like Scott's Pretender, it may be more important to the DO to command the allegiance and obedience of the Dragon than it is to be free and in control of all existence. That the entire world, including the Dragon, accept its authority than to only command the scraps of existence that remain after Tarmon Gaidon is over.

 

However, none of that explains Shaidar Haran's behavior. Throughout the series, SH is diligently working to get Rand killed which hardly fits with the other premise unless there is much more to SH than appears. More than a hollow vessel waiting for the DO to impart it with some of its own essence. SH may have his own plans for who really rules when all the dust settles.

 

I like it (and the story)

But I don't think it's enough

I seem to remember BS or RJ saying that the Dragon had gone over in past ages, yet that didn't stop time/destroy the world etc. The wheel turned and somehow the Dragon turned to the Light again. Of course we don't know the circumstances but the implication is either a) that turning the Dragon is not enough for a complete victory, or b) that the concept of a DO victory as we understand it is wrong. Maybe a permanent victory is impossible and all the DO ever fights for is control of one age at a time. That would really screw Moridin's logic and potentially give Rand ammunition.

 

If a victory by the DO is to be permanent, then he needs more than just a black Dragon.

Maybe he needs a permanently turned and immortal Dragon to stop him changing his mind or being reborn on the 'wrong' side as it were. Or, he needs the Dragon to do something that he's failed to persuade him to do so far.

 

Sorry, just saw your edit

 

As for SH,

I don't believe he's trying to kill Rand as such any more. They tried for a while, but the Pattern took care of him every time. They've had to get creative and are working on his mind-set instead.

Take Semi's demise, SH handed her over on a platter. (There's even a foreshadowing of the manner of her death in LOC 6 when she's questioning Cabriana Mecandes). I can't think of a single better set up to bring out Rand's dark side. First let Semi do what she does best to him and Min, then when he really can't take any more make him kill a woman, or two, and at the same time give him a taste of that addictive TP.

I don't suppose the DO arranged that link between Rand and Moridin, but he sure is making the most of it and I bet he understands it better than they do.

It was a genius move. If Rand dies - it's a win. If Rand is collared and taken to SG - it's a win. If Rand gets 'lucky' again and uses TP to free himself, well, that's pretty good too.

[Byzantine279]

It isn't so much that Moridin doesn't realize that his life doesn't always have to be bad, its that he thinks that all life is bad, that is he believes that it can never get better, because such a thing as a "good life" doesn't exist according to his warped view of the world.

[Eht Slat Meit]

However, none of that explains Shaidar Haran's behavior. Throughout the series, SH is diligently working to get Rand killed which hardly fits with the other premise unless there is much more to SH than appears. More than a hollow vessel waiting for the DO to impart it with some of its own essence. SH may have his own plans for who really rules when all the dust settles.

 

Is he really doing that, or is he manipulating his "Chosen" in order to do Rand the most grievous harm they can, and sacrifice themselves in the process? Let's look at some quotes:

She licked her lips again. Her entire mouth had gone dry. There had to be a way out. "I have a better plan, more bold. You will be impressed. Al'Thor thinks I am dead, so I can-"

"No." Such a quiet voice, but so horrible. Graendal foudn she could not speak. Something had taken her voice. "No," Shaidar Haran continued. "This opportunity has been given to another. But Graendal, you shall not be forgotten." ~ ToM, epilogue

 

Here, SH refers to this 'opportunity' in a rather cavalier fashion, much like the carrot before the horse. You have to pity the next Forsaken who gets the opportunity, because the previous ones have been balefired or Shaidarmized. Demandred? He's one of the few Forsaken not still on a leash (excluding Moridin and maybe Dashiva's newest body), and seems to have the largest personal vendetta against LTT/Rand. Perhaps he'll give Demandred the 'opportunity' to take out Mat or Perrin, for the prize of killing Rand. After all, Moridin set Demandred down on that subject once already, and DO needs -something- to motivate his Chosen now that he's given Nae'bliss away...

 

Purpose? To divert Mat and Perrin from Rand... their ta'veren net is a deadly threat to the DO. Demandred's just the General to do it, too.

 

For some reason, it's been suggested by others that Semirhage was intended to kill Rand, but that's not indicated in either the orders that Moridin or SH gave her.

"Now," the Forsaken said, "you see that you have always been intended to serve the Great Lord. We will leave this room and deal with those so-called Aes Sedai who imprisoned me. We will travel to Shayol Ghul and present you to the Great Lord, and then this can all be finished."

 

In response to the orders Semi is acting on, short minutes later, LTT/Rand gets access to the TP (which we know only comes with the DO's permission) and proceeds to balefire her out of the Pattern. So apparently the DO didn't really mind if Rand didn't come to Shayol Ghul. He already knew Rand had the power, gave Semi a task that Rand could easily circumvent IF he used the power. That's a set up, a Forsaken sacrifice.

 

What did he achieve by doing it? Getting Rand to use an insanely destructive and powerful force that is not in his best interests to be using, one that Rand would probably avoid under better circumstances.

 

Manipulation and sacrifice. Why should Semirhage matter to the DO?

 

Then there's Jaichim, master of all failures:

 

The Myrddraal laughed, a sound that made Carridin's bones shiver. "Still, I will know why you are here instead of on Almoth Plain."

 

"I was commanded here by word of the Lord Captain Commander."The Myrddraal grated, "Your Lord Captain Commander's words are dung! You were commanded to find the human called Rand al'Thor and kill him. That before all else. Above all else! Why are you not obeying?"Carridin took a deep breath. That gaze on his back felt like a knife blade grating along his spine. "Things... have changed. Some matters are not as much in my control as they were." A harsh, scraping noise jerked his head around. The Myrddraal was drawing a hand across the tabletop, and thin tendrils of wood curled away from its fingernails. "Nothing has changed, human. You foreswore your oaths to the Light and swore new oaths, and those oaths you will obey." Carridin started at the gouges marring the polished wood and swallowed hard. "I don't understand. Why is it suddenly so important to kill him? I thought the Great Lord of the Dark meant to use him." ~ TDR Prologue

 

Jaichim is given a set of orders that conflict with what he -thinks- is the DO's purpose. He's not ordered to think, he's ordered to go out and die on the Almoth Plain alongside the Children of the Light he commanded there. Instead, he's here dilly-dallying around in the Fortress. Is Jaichim or the CoTL really a deadly threat to Rand? Would the DO see them so? Doesn't seem that way to me.

 

Purpose? To set the Children against the Seanchan; this has a more obvious purpose in the later books. Pitting the two against each other using Rand as an excuse helps widen a lasting schism that will work against Rand later. It's not as if the DO wouldn't know this, as prophecy keeps pointing out Rand's need for the Seanchan. Seanchan against the Mainlanders, dead Seanchan, people in fear of the Seanchan and their chained Aes Sedai that just slaughtered one of the great powers of the Mainland... it starts to add up to making an enemy out of an imperialist force that actually seems to conquer in a fashion that (as observed by Rand) isn't necessarily a detriment to the invaded.

 

And really... Carridin is trash, slated for death. A sacrifice that barely matters.

 

Are there other situations that SH appears to try and have Rand killed? They don't immediately come to mind, but I'm sure there's at least one more.

[BrainFireBob]

It isn't so much that Moridin doesn't realize that his life doesn't always have to be bad, its that he thinks that all life is bad, that is he believes that it can never get better, because such a thing as a "good life" doesn't exist according to his warped view of the world.

 

This is inaccurate. He was a philosophor specializing in meaning. What meaning is there if everything repeats, and no improvement- or regression, for that matter- can truly occur? Especially living in a nearly utopic society, things could only get worse.

 

Ishamael wants to introduce linear time. The only way to introduce linear time is hurtling straight into destruction. The alternative, to him, is utterly pointless- the same pain and suffering and regression and inability to truly progress no matter what is done. Better being able to once and truly choose something than to be trapped like hamsters in the same wheel forever. That's his brand of nihilism.

 

Rand's VoG revelation is simply . . . that the hamster wheel has its perks.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Interesting thinking going on here. Much of it stuff I wouldn't have considered on my own. Thank you all for that.

 

Semirhage as deliberate sacrifice? I don't really see that. I DO see it as a last chance to do what she was told to do or to continue to do only what pleased her and be eternally damned for that. I think the DO likes to present his "Chosen" with what appear to be free choices but really aren't. More like tasty worms with a hook hiding inside. I don't see the DO as ever wanting those who are willing to think for themselves.

 

DEMANDRED. HOW FARES THIS WORLD? ... WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED? ... WOULD YOU BE NAE'BLIS?

 

All baited questions. Lots of tasty worms hiding nasty, nasty hooks. All boiling down to, "WILL YOU CONTINUE TO INSIST ON THINKING FOR YOURSELF OR WILL YOU ONLY DO AS I INSTRUCT?"

 

Semirhage couldn't resist a little play time, so the hook got set - HARD - and the fish died to her own greedy selfishness.

 

The DO giveth, and the DO taketh away. Does Moridin have free rein, or is he just being given enough rope to hang himself?

 

The DO, and his vessel Shaidar Haran, offer remarkably few carrots but many, many sticks.

[msbee]

Just to round off my Semirhage argument, here's the paragraph that convinced me (LOC 6- Semi's musings)

 

If the Great Lord meant to make al’Thor Nae’blis, she herself would kneel to him – and wait for a slip to deliver him into her hands. Immortality meant infinite time to wait. There would always be other patients to amuse her in the meantime. What troubled her was Shaidar Haran. She had never been more than an indifferent tcheranplayer, but Shaidar Haran was a new piece on the board, one of unknown strength and purpose. And one daring way to capture your opponent’s High Counselor and turn it to your side was to sacrifice your Spires in a false attack. She would kneel if need be, for as long as need be, but she would not be sacrificed.

 

You make an interesting point regarding Moridin.

I shall go away, think about it and come back to you when that glass of wine I've just had has worn off enough for me to engage in philosophical arguments.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Semirhage couldn't resist a little play time, so the hook got set - HARD - and the fish died to her own greedy selfishness.

 

I'm not sure I follow your logic on this, explain? I mean, looking at the situation - she caught Rand -cold-. No escape, game over. If the DO really and truly meant for Rand to be taken to SG as he instructed Semirhage, why throw away that victory, and why give up Rand just to punish her? It seems... counterproductive.

[Dreggs Morlock]

Semirhage couldn't resist a little play time, so the hook got set - HARD - and the fish died to her own greedy selfishness.

 

I'm not sure I follow your logic on this, explain? I mean, looking at the situation - she caught Rand -cold-. No escape, game over. If the DO really and truly meant for Rand to be taken to SG as he instructed Semirhage, why throw away that victory, and why give up Rand just to punish her? It seems... counterproductive.

Actually, this seems not so far fetched to me. If Semirhage had immediately taken Rand to SG via travelling, he would have never gotten mad or desparate enough to look for the true power. In essence, its a win/win for the DO. If she torments Rand and Rand tries to access the TP, he gets to corrupt Rand enormously. If she comes directly to SG, he gets physical control over the CoL.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Semirhage couldn't resist a little play time, so the hook got set - HARD - and the fish died to her own greedy selfishness.

 

I'm not sure I follow your logic on this, explain? I mean, looking at the situation - she caught Rand -cold-. No escape, game over. If the DO really and truly meant for Rand to be taken to SG as he instructed Semirhage, why throw away that victory, and why give up Rand just to punish her? It seems... counterproductive.

 

The DO didn't. There was no victory. What Semirhage was up to would have left Rand a broken, blubbering mess, at best. Whether you suppose that the DO knowingly gave Rand access to the True Power or whether that access simply came to Rand via his connection to Moridin isn't important. What is ( as nearly as I can judge something as alien as the DO ) is that it's vassals follow directions, whatever those directions are. If not, they go to jail, go directly to jail, they do not pass GO and they definitely do not collect $200.

 

Semirhage's orders were to collect Rand, control him via the a'dam, and convey him immediately to Shayol Ghul.

 

She did not do that. In fact, she was in the process of breaking him so completely that what remained would have been utterly useless to the DO.

 

While I have no idea what it is, it seems obvious that the DO needs Rand for some specific purpose. And it needs him functional and in control of himself, which he would not have been once Semirhage finished with him.

 

She wasn't sacrificed. She sacrificed herself. In the end, her own wants or needs took precedence over everything. Just as was the case with Sammael, that is what killed her.

[Eht Slat Meit]

She did not do that. In fact, she was in the process of breaking him so completely that what remained would have been utterly useless to the DO.

 

I would disagree with that, based on the grounds that the DO knows Semirhage better than to assume that she's an incompetent torturer who will completely break Rand in a fit of pique.

[Bob T Dwarf]

She did not do that. In fact, she was in the process of breaking him so completely that what remained would have been utterly useless to the DO.

 

I would disagree with that, based on the grounds that the DO knows Semirhage better than to assume that she's an incompetent torturer who will completely break Rand in a fit of pique.

 

We've gotten to watch Semirhage at work once. Not a meaningful sample size, but ...

 

She got so lost in her sadistic bliss that one of the two people she was working on died without her intending for him to at that point.

 

We have no clue what the DO knows or believes. All we know is what we've been shown. What we've been shown is a woman who so loses herself in her own pleasures that she never even considers the bigger picture. A woman who thinks of herself as so far above any consequence that the final consequences of her acts never enter her thinking.

 

If the books have shown us anything, so far, it's that the Forsaken are idiots, and the Dark One is utterly deranged. That's all we can be sure of at this point.

[Eht Slat Meit]

 

We've gotten to watch Semirhage at work once. Not a meaningful sample size, but ...

 

She got so lost in her sadistic bliss that one of the two people she was working on died without her intending for him to at that point.

 

I think you're mistaking the use of the word 'reverie' for something different than actually took place. As I recall, and after double-checking encyclopaedia wot against LoC, it turns out she was rushed and distracted by her thoughts on whatever games Shaidar Haran might be playing at, first invoking that Sha'rah comparison that Moridin has gone on at length about elsewhere.

 

Not due to incompetence, or some sort freaky pain-lust fetish, but simple distraction.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

We've gotten to watch Semirhage at work once. Not a meaningful sample size, but ...

 

She got so lost in her sadistic bliss that one of the two people she was working on died without her intending for him to at that point.

 

I think you're mistaking the use of the word 'reverie' for something different than actually took place. As I recall, and after double-checking encyclopaedia wot against LoC, it turns out she was rushed and distracted by her thoughts on whatever games Shaidar Haran might be playing at, first invoking that Sha'rah comparison that Moridin has gone on at length about elsewhere.

 

Not due to incompetence, or some sort freaky pain-lust fetish, but simple distraction.

 

However you choose to interpret it, it boils down to Semirhage was careless. She thought she was above any consequence no matter what she did or when she did it. She was wrong. She had a bare instant to realize just how wrong before she became motes in the air.

[Dreggs Morlock]

 

We've gotten to watch Semirhage at work once. Not a meaningful sample size, but ...

 

She got so lost in her sadistic bliss that one of the two people she was working on died without her intending for him to at that point.

 

I think you're mistaking the use of the word 'reverie' for something different than actually took place. As I recall, and after double-checking encyclopaedia wot against LoC, it turns out she was rushed and distracted by her thoughts on whatever games Shaidar Haran might be playing at, first invoking that Sha'rah comparison that Moridin has gone on at length about elsewhere.

 

Not due to incompetence, or some sort freaky pain-lust fetish, but simple distraction.

 

However you choose to interpret it, it boils down to Semirhage was careless. She thought she was above any consequence no matter what she did or when she did it. She was wrong. She had a bare instant to realize just how wrong before she became motes in the air.

I am comfortable with the DO thinking it was even money on whether Semi was going to get Rand back to SG, or piss him off enough for Rand to search for anything that could get him out of the mess (i.e. True Power). Either way, it must have been looked at as a win/win situation. Lets face it, if Semi had even a hint her life was in danger, a portal would have been used immediately to get Rand to where he could not hurt her.

[decrepid dragon]

We've gotten to watch Semirhage at work once. Not a meaningful sample size, but ...

 

She got so lost in her sadistic bliss that one of the two people she was working on died without her intending for him to at that point.

 

I think you're mistaking the use of the word 'reverie' for something different than actually took place. As I recall, and after double-checking encyclopaedia wot against LoC, it turns out she was rushed and distracted by her thoughts on whatever games Shaidar Haran might be playing at, first invoking that Sha'rah comparison that Moridin has gone on at length about elsewhere.

 

Not due to incompetence, or some sort freaky pain-lust fetish, but simple distraction.

 

However you choose to interpret it, it boils down to Semirhage was careless. She thought she was above any consequence no matter what she did or when she did it. She was wrong. She had a bare instant to realize just how wrong before she became motes in the air.

I am comfortable with the DO thinking it was even money on whether Semi was going to get Rand back to SG, or piss him off enough for Rand to search for anything that could get him out of the mess (i.e. True Power). Either way, it must have been looked at as a win/win situation. Lets face it, if Semi had even a hint her life was in danger, a portal would have been used immediately to get Rand to where he could not hurt her.

Ever since Shaidar Haran joined the Arena and Moridin started letting us readers know what is really going on with the Dark One I became really interested about what the overall plan might be. I wouldn't say that the DO always planned for Rand to touch the TP, but working on the assumption that he is some far seeing being with millions of years experience in human behaviour he must have realised it was possible to create such a situation before he freed Semhirage.

It seemed to me that the biggest danger and the DO's main play for freedom, that is mad Rand destroying everything and ultimately achieveing the DO's aims and setting him free, has already passed. And that after this moment in the series it has been more about the clean up and ensuring that the shadowspawn don't overun the world for another age, so saving people. That might have only been his first of two gambits, the other being the LB, but I can't say untik AMoL comes out.

[bsmnt23]

The thing about the Forsaken is that yes they are the most powerful of the AoL Aes Sedai, but they are not the top of the heap for that, but because they have traits that the Dark One can most readily relate to, manipulate, and use. The Forsaken, these that remain of the original Dreadlords are covetous, jealous, and above all else desire more power. These are the people who turned their back on the ideals of their society, that those with the most gifts must use those gifts to serve that society. They wanted to use their power to serve themselves and their own desires. I think when you break it all down, the people who eventually became the Forsaken just didn’t want to be told what to do and had the power to tear down the society that tried. The title of Nae’blis may make the holder of that title a target, but only the DO himself can override his orders. That is a very desired thing when your only threat is from your peers.