Do you think Rand/Dragon Soul could be literally be Jesus Christ and/or other legends/religious figures of our day?

[Vermillion]

A better question is: Was Jesus a Dragon? and the answer is quiet simply no.

You see the dragon is based on a concept of a messiah, characters like Rand, Neo and others represent in fictional works.

And even if u believe all of the myths of Jesus, Jesus falls short of being a messiah, Neo and Rand meet the requirements...

 

Unrelated to the previous discussion: Other messianic characters like Prometheus and Hercules (are really the same character) do reach a proto-level of messianic achievement (later, pagans bequeathed their attributes to Jesus, to make an attempted messiah into a god)

 

Of course, we know that because there is no dragon soul in RL. But I'm talking the book "real world" where we're in one of the seven ages. We really don't know what Jesus did because we have a very limited angle on his life. Almost all of his life is chronicled by his followers and sparsley any historical recordings. He could have been doing a forgotten or one time talent that worked with the creator like Wolfbrother.

 

RJ has hinted that the Dragon Soul does play important roles that aren't dragon related in some ages. Would Jesus been Ta'veren? What about someone like Gengis Khan? HoH and Ta'veren?

[Shawnchan]

A better question is: Was Jesus a Dragon? and the answer is quiet simply no.

You see the dragon is based on a concept of a messiah, characters like Rand, Neo and others represent in fictional works.

And even if u believe all of the myths of Jesus, Jesus falls short of being a messiah, Neo and Rand meet the requirements...

 

Unrelated to the previous discussion: Other messianic characters like Prometheus and Hercules (are really the same character) do reach a proto-level of messianic achievement (later, pagans bequeathed their attributes to Jesus, to make an attempted messiah into a god)

 

As a matter of fact The Dragon is a Luciferian figure, not a Messianic figure. The "Messiah" in your terms of Jesus, is still yet to come. (Daniel, Isiah, Revelation)

 

Also you have your history wrong. Pagans bequeathed nada. The ruling religious figures dressed up their rituals to charm the "Pagans" by celebrating religious rites on the same days that "Pagans" were used to celebrating on already.

[Anomandaris]

Seeing as the bible is one of the most prevailing works of the written word on the planet, literature is suffused with jeasus figures. Rand is obviously one of them. One of you touched on this by mentioning that he's fated to die and be reborn (but then you failed by going off on a tangent). Try looking at similarities yah? (1)He's a savior figure.(2)(An obvious one for anyone who's read the bible)(hell, anyone who'se decided to watch t.v. on easter!)He's been marked/wounded 3 times; herron on each hand, and ba'alzamons staff on his side.(remind you of anyone?)(3) He wears a crown of swords(not exactly thorns but prickly none the less). (4) his death is slated to be presided by three women. (5) the aforementioned death thing. obvious jesus figure. BUT NOT JESUS HIMSELF! so stop trying to go there all of you who've tried to rationalize it with the many lives of the horn of valere heroes. NOT THE SAME WORLD. Also, one of you likened him to lucifer: good catch - wrong context. Rand is not a devil figure. doesnt fit the guidlines for a devil figure in literature. the whole "lord of the morning" thing is a literary device connecting lews therin to lucifer in order to form a parallel thereby illustrating how far he falls from the grace of the age of legends. so, to recap, definite Jesus figure, not Jesus himself, definitely NOT devil figure.

[Anomandaris]

also, if you'll forgive a minor digression from the topic at hand: Do you guys even KNOW what a messiah is!? Not even an eschatological meaning just a general definitio? Cause i'm seeing "messianic" atributed to characters like prometheus and hercules. Okay for prometheus you can make a case. A small one, but at least its possible. hercules on the other hand.... Seriously?(Also, you do realize that in mythology herc is a demi-god and prometheus a titan? symilarities can be drawn but they are NOT the same character)Finaly, to state that rand is not a messianic character belies your understanding of the term.

[Agitel]

Seeing as the bible is one of the most prevailing works of the written word on the planet, literature is suffused with jeasus figures. Rand is obviously one of them. One of you touched on this by mentioning that he's fated to die and be reborn (but then you failed by going off on a tangent). Try looking at similarities yah? (1)He's a savior figure.(2)(An obvious one for anyone who's read the bible)(hell, anyone who'se decided to watch t.v. on easter!)He's been marked/wounded 3 times; herron on each hand, and ba'alzamons staff on his side.(remind you of anyone?)(3) He wears a crown of swords(not exactly thorns but prickly none the less). (4) his death is slated to be presided by three women. (5) the aforementioned death thing. obvious jesus figure. BUT NOT JESUS HIMSELF! so stop trying to go there all of you who've tried to rationalize it with the many lives of the horn of valere heroes. NOT THE SAME WORLD. Also, one of you likened him to lucifer: good catch - wrong context. Rand is not a devil figure. doesnt fit the guidlines for a devil figure in literature. the whole "lord of the morning" thing is a literary device connecting lews therin to lucifer in order to form a parallel thereby illustrating how far he falls from the grace of the age of legends. so, to recap, definite Jesus figure, not Jesus himself, definitely NOT devil figure.

 

Emphasis mine.

 

The very point of The Wheel of Time is that it is the same world. This is Earth. Our history is their mythos. Their history is our mythos. As for Rand and Lucifer, this topic has made it clear to me that their are intended parallels there as well. Good and evil figures get distorted over time. Look at how many in the WoTverse thought that the Dragon was a creature of the Shadow. Add some millenia to all this and see where the mythology goes.

[mandersen]

A lot of you are evaluating whether Rand is a Christ-figure in a literary sense, not a literal one. I think the question was whether it was RJ's intention for Christ to be literary the dragon soul. The answer is anyone's guess, unless someone has a definitive quote. I think he left it up to our own interpretation, but it makes sense that he is.

 

As for the Lucifer connection, why couldn't that be from a previous age, when the Dragon soul was actually turned? hence the "fallen angel" story we have now? in fact, it makes sense that the age before the BC age would've ended in near annihilation of the human race, thus the "beginnings" of civilization started in limited locations (IE Mesopotamia). If the dragon was turned in the age before our known history starts, it makes sense that there was a breaking and mass destruction. And all we'd have left are the myths and stories of those early civilizations. Hence Lucifer the morning star, the fallen angel.

[Anomandaris]

First of all, what the hell are you fracking on agitel!? "The very point of The Wheel of Time is that it is the same world"!? Show me one DEFINITIVE example of this. Also, the dragon was only viewed as a creature of the shadow by the uneducated masses. He is believed to have been the cause of the breaking therefore, in their limited understanding, he is viewed as an instrument of shadow. Further more, OFCOURSE there are intended parallels! RJ borrowed heavily from religion and mythology. Just look at perrin(Slavic god Perun), and Mat(the Norse god Odin). Now, Manderson, you make a good distinction (literrary/literal) but then you detract from it with your follow up. Do you trully believe that a cataclism severe enough to destroy all vestige of past civilization save a few power wrought trinkets would allow for the survival of the worlds inhabitants?

[Luckers]

A lot of you are evaluating whether Rand is a Christ-figure in a literary sense, not a literal one. I think the question was whether it was RJ's intention for Christ to be literary the dragon soul.

 

Actually Jordan stated several times that whilst he drew from Jesus and the mythology surrounding him in constructing Rand, he did not ever intend Rand to be Jesus, but that he imagined him more as a King Arthur style messiah. That being said, I do believe this is one of the places where Brandon went a little wrong as I do agree with those that claim Rand is very Jesusy in the literal sense in TofM. *shrug*

 

First of all, what the hell are you fracking on agitel!? "The very point of The Wheel of Time is that it is the same world"!? Show me one DEFINITIVE example of this. And the dragon was only viewed as a creature of the chadow by the un educated masses of. T And Manderson, you make a good point (literrary/literal) but then you detract from it by your follow up. Do you trully believe that a cataclism severe enough to destroy all vestige of past civilization save a few power wrought trinkets would allow for the survival of the worlds inhabitants?

 

Calm down a little Anomandaris. No need to get agressive to make your point.

 

As for that, Jordan stated directly that the Wheel is the same world as ours--it is our future and our past.

[Anomandaris]

 

First of all, what the hell are you fracking on agitel!? "The very point of The Wheel of Time is that it is the same world"!? Show me one DEFINITIVE example of this. And the dragon was only viewed as a creature of the chadow by the un educated masses of. T And Manderson, you make a good point (literrary/literal) but then you detract from it by your follow up. Do you trully believe that a cataclism severe enough to destroy all vestige of past civilization save a few power wrought trinkets would allow for the survival of the worlds inhabitants?

 

Calm down a little Anomandaris. No need to get agressive to make your point.

 

As for that, Jordan stated directly that the Wheel is the same world as ours--it is our future and our past.

Ah, i did not know that. I stand corrected. Thanks luckers. Apologies agitel. Though, i stand by the rest of it.

[Agitel]

 

First of all, what the hell are you fracking on agitel!? "The very point of The Wheel of Time is that it is the same world"!? Show me one DEFINITIVE example of this. And the dragon was only viewed as a creature of the chadow by the un educated masses of. T And Manderson, you make a good point (literrary/literal) but then you detract from it by your follow up. Do you trully believe that a cataclism severe enough to destroy all vestige of past civilization save a few power wrought trinkets would allow for the survival of the worlds inhabitants?

 

Calm down a little Anomandaris. No need to get agressive to make your point.

 

As for that, Jordan stated directly that the Wheel is the same world as ours--it is our future and our past.

Ah, i did not know that. I stand corrected. Thanks luckers. Apologies agitel. Though, i stand by the rest of it.

 

My point was that over many millenia the history could be distorted. You're right that the educated people in the Wheel of Time have a more informed opinion than the common folk, but add a few more Ages and you very well could see the Dragon Reborn viewed as a destructive figure, or his role and the role of someone else could become muddled, etc... With that said, what we've seen from Fourth Age writings is that the Dragon is remembered quite fondly. Whoever suggested that in the last turning the Dragon may have gone to the Shadow and inspired the Lucifer legends may have been on to something. There's also nothing inherently conflicting within the story Jordan's own words from outside of the story which Luckers has informed us of do make a clear case though) with the Dragon soul being both Lucifer and Jesus in the WoTverse, it would be some interesting irony.

 

We have Jordan's own quotes to the WoT world being our world, but throughout the story we have references to John Glenn, the first moon landing (Lenn rode to the moon in the belly of an eagle ("the eagle has landed"), Sally Ride (Lenn's daughter, Salya, who walked among the stars), Mother Theresa (Materese of the Wondrous Ind), Gautama Buddha (Ghoetam meditating under the tree of life for like 40 years or something), Queen Elizabeth (Queen Alsbet, Ruler of All), Ann Landers (Anla the Wise Counselor, Ann Landers was an advice columnist, it was a gag reference), a Mercedes-Benz hood ornament (found in the Palace in Tanchico, gives off a vibe of vanity or whatever), and a war between America and Russia (Mosk (Moscow) and Merk (America) being two giants who hurled spears of fire at one another). A lot of these are dropped by Thom as stories that came even before the Age of Legends, though Egwene asks him to recite some of them, and Rand is the one who mentions the Buddha reference when in Rhuidean with Mat for the first time.

 

I'm rambling, though. It's fascinating stuff. I've also essentially charted the breaking of the world, but that's something else entirely.