The Field of Merrilor is gonna be off 'da hook!!!!!

[The Fisher King]

I have a feeling that the spark in this particular gasoline keg will be the Traitor Reveals, when all the most highly placed Compulsion-victims and Darkfriends make their debut - Sorilea to the Aiel, Bashere and his Aes Sedai to the Borderlanders, and so on.

Sorilea, yes. Bashere, unlikely. I doubt this will be 'the' spark exactly, since the day has to start with Rand waking up from that dream, and while it's possible that Rand will have an anticlimactic reaction to that, it's likely he won't.

 

Once that explosion happens, Moghedien and Graendal might pop in and start trying to rack up a really high level kill count by Compelling Gawyn to kill Egwene and Alivia to kill Rand.

Graendal, maybe. Though I doubt the killing of Rand will come about via Compulsion at all. I think Moghedien will be busy, along with Lanfear, in guarding the dreamspike. After all, why not mindtrap Mesaana? Those two are valuable to Moridin, and their transgressions were simply an excuse to secure the plan. IMO.

 

How would Galad react if Rand finds a Darkfriend among the Whitecloak officers? If you don't trust me and I turn around and name your best buddy Darkfriend, you will not care that I may be right. You won't even investigate. You'll just call me an asshole and start a fight.

Interview: Sep 2nd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Emma

 

Question

If Galad and Rand were to fight with swords who would win? (laughter)

Robert Jordan

Well it's not going to happen. I would say Rand would, at least until recently.

 

Except, all Rand has to do is have the accused brought into his presence. The guilty will convict themselves when confronted by The Dragon. They literally cannot look at him or even be in his vicinity without becoming self-destructive.

I doubt it will be this simple and easy. For one thing, someone with as strong a will as Sorilea might well be able to resist the effects, even if Rand is channeling, much the same way as come people can resist Compulsion and some people can resist Rand's ta'veren effects (if it's important enough to them). Weiramon is a pussy.

 

I strongly doubt there will be much of a flare-up, at least not between the groups gathered. Look at what is happening elsewhere in the world. Caemlyn under attack, the Seanchan about to attack the WT, the Shadow overwhelming the Borderlands, and possibly the Shadow about to attack Ebou Dar...These are things that has to be dealt with, and throwing in a showdown at FOM would make that extremely difficult to happen in a satisfying way.

I agree it will mostly end up being a staging ground, but that doesn't mean there won't be any throwdown before that point. Certain types of throwdown can be resolved quickly. The Sorilea throwdown is going to happen whenever Cadsuane figures out what is going on. That's foreshadowed.

 

TITLE: Crown of Swords

CHAPTER: 36 - Blade

 

"Be quiet!" Cadsuane roared, slapping her hands together in a thundercrack. "You, girl. He needs his bed. Hop!" Nandera hopped. Rand was stripped and in his bed in a twinkling, with Samitsu and Niande both hovering over him, the Cairhienin chased out and Nandera at the door repeating Cadsuane's instructions that he was not to be disturbed by anyone, all so fast Min felt dizzy. She hoped one day to see the confrontation between Cadsuane and the Wise One Sorilea; it had to come, and it would be memorable.

I wonder if Cadsuane will pull a Vandene and take out Sorilea in a way that exposes her to being killed by other Darkfriends. She's definitely got 'blaze of glory' written all over her.

 

That kind of assumes a couple things: First that Sorilea is dumb enough to wait for someone to accuse to accuse her of being a Darkfriend before implementing an Evil Plan ™. Anyone high-ranking enough to matter is going to already have their plans in place, and can do plenty of damage without coming into his presence. Sorilea is the queen of all poop-stirrers and Bashere is at the head of an army.

Bashere will IMO most likely get killed when he goes after the Legion of the Dragon, which is probably controlled by Darkfriends. That's his 'something dark'.

 

Haven't Rand and Bashere been together since Rand's Ascension?

Yes. Which tends to shoot to pieces my theory that Bashere is a Baddie.

I have always felt like his POV rules him out as a Darkfriend, not necessarily because of anything he revealed in his thoughts—RJ was very careful about that—but because of what happened in that POV (his tent being ransacked, presumably for the seals, and his wife being attacked). And this is what caused him to go after Rand, and he told Rand everything with a great deal of concern. The scene with Torkumen kind of nailed it, though I suppose it's possible that Bashere has a will as strong as Sorilea's. He was brave enough to throw a knife at Rand's head in LOC. He was just trying to make a point, though, and you'd think a Darkfriend wouldn't be so ballsy as to risk his own life like that. And he does seem to genuinely love his wife.

 

Ok, maybe I missed something... why do you (to those of you who DO think this way) think Sorilea is a darkfriend? I have yet to see her do anything but fight/hate the shadow. What are you drawing this opinion from?

I gathered the evidence a while back. I think maybe I should have written the theory differently, because I feel the need to be thorough, and the evidence starts out pretty weak, and most people give up before too long and therefore miss the progression of evidence throughout the series. (Like these guys, who appear to be the soft underbelly of Dragonmount.)

 

The most compelling parts to me—aside from the blatant foreshadowing in Min's POV I quoted above—were the parts with Verin. Because while Verin might not have been officially in on the fact that Sorilea was a Darkfriend, this was something she had been studying for 70 years, and it's unlikely she would have missed it. The comments are careful, but they say a lot when you put them together. Little details, like the fact that Sorilea was the one to give Verin the poison to kill Cadsuane, and the fact that Verin thought there might be 'safety, of a sort' in the fact that Sorilea was in charge of the Wise Ones. The fact that Sorilea intimidated Verin. The fact that Amys and Sorilea had a battle over leadership of the Wise Ones, and over whether or not they would use the Power in battle. Sorilea championed the cause of using it. And god, what a nice, evil thing for RJ to do to us, with the way he had her proclaim it. One of the most awesome, exciting moments in the series—Sorilea's little declaration of war. Makes us feel all warm and fuzzy inside...until we reread the series after having read the last book. The fact that Sorilea smelled intensely satisfied when the Aes Sedai prisoners were given to her, and the fact that Katerine escaped. The fact that Sorilea was clearly thrilled when Min said that Sorilea would serve Rand. Hardly a thing for any Aiel to be happy about, much less the one who believes she should always be in charge, and always gets her way. She was happy because it gave Rand a reason to trust her. We've all seen how that viewing worked for Elza. The fact that Sorilea essentially tortured Min to get as many viewings out of her as possible.

 

That's the meat of it. Then there are things that are icing on the cake. Like the fact that Sorilea contradicted herself on whether or not Rand should be hard. Nearly right after she's introduced, she says Rand must be hard to lead the Aiel. Then, when Cadsuane stupidly tells her what her objectives are, Sorilea tells Cadsuane what she wants to hear—that Rand should be strong rather than hard—and immediately puts Cadsuane in her debt. In one stroke, she sealed the deal that would lead Cadsuane to be vulnerable to her at the right time, and she foreshadowed the fact that she can demonstrate weaves even if she's not strong enough to make them work. Of course, that gets way into meat territory, but the contradiction was a nice touch, and not likely to be accidental. And then there is the fact that Sorilea is almost always described in negative language. Linda has done great work on this sort of thing at 13th Depository, showing how RJ did this subtly with all Darkfriends. With Sorilea, you get multiple 'harridan' remarks, even 'harridan to give you nightmares', and it's all 'haha isn't she just awesome like that'. She makes Perrin's blood run cold and gives Verin the creeps. If just one or two or even three of those clues stood alone, it would be one thing, but all this is just a pervasive aspect of Sorilea's character. There's practically no time spent developing her outside painting her as an evil woman who comes across to the unwary as being just like Cadsuane—a strong-willed woman who has her shit together. She is that, but she's not Cadsuane.

 

I'm not sure where the Sorilea hate is coming from either.

It's not Sorilea-hate. She's a fantastic character. She's just a little on the red-handed side at this point.

 

Probably the fact that it seems that Amys, Bair, Melaine, and Sorilea cooperate in a lot of stuff and there's a strong case that can be made that Amys is Dark. She is the only one outside Rand's inner circle who was told about Rand's attack on Rahvin, yet by the time Nynaeve captured her, Moghedien knew. She couldn't have gotten that info by spying on anyone's dreams either because none of those who knew directly other than Rand slept that night, and Rand was already guarding his dreams.

Why don't you think they slept that night? Rand announced that he would go after Rahvin the day before he actually did. In either case, they can enter Tel'aran'rhiod during the daytime, and that's where Moghedien was seen spying on the Lanfear alliance.

 

After double-checking, Sorilea didn't show Elza anything. Elza got all of her instructions from Shaidar Haran.

There's nothing that says Elza got her instructions exclusively from Shaidar Haran. I believe that Brandon gave a pretty good Aes Sedai answer here:

 

Interview: Nov 15th, 2009

TGS Signing Report - Freelancer (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

How did Elza defeat the wards on Cadsuane's plain wooden box?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her.

He doesn't say that Shaidar Haran gives her this knowledge...just that the knowledge is part of what made her a tool of Shaidar Haran. If Shaidar Haran actually could teach weaves, then it would have to be the True Power, and while it's possible they granted Elza access knowing she would be killed and that it didn't matter, it still seems doubtful. Also, while it's possible to do some things with the True Power that you can't do with the One Power—like disarm inverted traps, which the Forsaken can't do—you have to wonder why none of those given access to the True Power have done so already if it was that easy. Why not disarm the traps on Callandor? All evidence suggests that you have to know the specific weave(s) used by the person who made the trap in the first place.

 

A Fade, hidden in a shadow, and looking for a way to free Semirhage and capture Rand, would likely be paying very close attention to everything Cadsuane did.

Shaidar Haran was able to detect the residue of a Gateway and can tell the difference between Saidin and Saidar. I dont think its too much of a stretch that the superfade was able to discover the location for himself.

Brandon has also said that Shaidar Haran has certain limitations when it comes to people who haven't sworn to serve the Dark One.

 

Interview: Nov 10th, 2009

TGS Signing Report - Lexington, KY (Paraphrased)

BRANDON SANDERSON

Brandon hinted at some severe limitations on Shaidar Haran to affect the physical world. He says that a lot of actions that people assume to be those of Shaidar Haran in the book in one particular scene were physically carried out by Elza. He further indicated that Shadar Haran would have been incapable of physically placing the collar himself.

Interview: Nov 16th, 2009

TGS Signing Report - kcf (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

You mention that Shaidar Haran has quite a few limitations on his power. Can you give us a few concrete examples of these limitations?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Shaidar Haran needs a minion to do most of his work for him. Elza was essential to Shaidar Haran in getting things done. This lead to lots of discussion about swearing to the Shadow—basically, it's a very bad idea and you forfeit some very basic protections when you do. Shaidar Haran has special power over those that swear to the Dark One, and the Forsaken in particular. I asked about Alviarin's special mark, and he said Shaidar Haran has similar power over her. The implication is that there are lots of ramifications for swearing to the Dark One. Brandon mentioned that this makes Verin all the more remarkable.

The most logical explanation is that Sorilea taught the weaves to Elza, and Elza was used with Semirhage because she was dispensable. Sorilea, on the other hand, is essential.

 

Whoa.That is seriously...thorough. Stop doing things that make me compliment you. It makes me...uncomfortable ;)

 

I personally don't think Sor = DF. I never have. I'm probably wrong, lol!!! I understand all the evidence; I guess I always saw it as sort of a red herring. Again, I'm probably wrong.

 

Quick Question: Geographically-speaking, where is Mat in relation to tFOM at TOM's end?

 

 

Fish

[Terez]

How can it be a red herring when no one even suspected that Sorilea was a Darkfriend until TGS, and by then all the evidence was thoroughly laid?

 

PS - Geographically, Mat is west of Caemlyn, and Merrilor is north of Tar Valon. So he's pretty far away.

[muddasssir]

Except, all Rand has to do is have the accused brought into his presence. The guilty will convict themselves when confronted by The Dragon. They literally cannot look at him or even be in his vicinity without becoming self-destructive.

 

That kind of assumes a couple things: First that Sorilea is dumb enough to wait for someone to accuse to accuse her of being a Darkfriend before implementing an Evil Plan ™. Anyone high-ranking enough to matter is going to already have their plans in place, and can do plenty of damage without coming into his presence. Sorilea is the queen of all poop-stirrers and Bashere is at the head of an army.

 

Rand already gave away the secret of his Light-Mojo by outing Weiramon and company like that. Other Darkfriends will be far more cautious.

 

More importantly, while that Mojo might work on DFs, there's nothing to show the same is true for Compulsion victims.

Emphasis "victims", people not already affiliated with the Shadow.

 

So if Bashere's under some Compulsion (like that dark shadow), Mojo isn't gonna do any good.

 

I am sorry to burst your bubble Bashere was at maradon when his cousin took out his eyes and his wife jumped out of the window. If he was dark friend how did he survived that?

 

 

 

[The Fisher King]

How can it be a red herring when no one even suspected that Sorilea was a Darkfriend until TGS, and by then all the evidence was thoroughly laid?

 

PS - Geographically, Mat is west of Caemlyn, and Merrilor is north of Tar Valon. So he's pretty far away.

 

That's exactly what red herrings are. That's why they're red herrings. But, as I said, I wont be surprised if I im wrong.

 

As for Mat, boy, The Battle of Camelyn, The Field of Merrilor....hes got quite a tough choice to make, doesn't he? Even a Ta'veren cant be in two places at once! Split loyalties to be sure. Which will he head for?? That is a BIG mystery - right?

 

 

Fish.

 

P.S Sometimes I'm slow. I admit, Ingtar surprised me. Weirmon...now, see, I thought HE was a red herring and look how that worked out, lol!!!

[Terez]

How can it be a red herring when no one even suspected that Sorilea was a Darkfriend until TGS, and by then all the evidence was thoroughly laid?

 

PS - Geographically, Mat is west of Caemlyn, and Merrilor is north of Tar Valon. So he's pretty far away.

 

That's exactly what red herrings are. That's why they're red herrings.

A red herring is something that is supposed to distract you from something else. And if Sorilea was supposed to be a red herring, she wasn't a very good one, because RJ went out of his way to convince us that she was one of the good guys.

 

Weiramon was one of the first theories I posted on the Theoryland forums, and people made fun of me for thinking it was an original idea. His stupidity was a red herring.

[The Fisher King]

How can it be a red herring when no one even suspected that Sorilea was a Darkfriend until TGS, and by then all the evidence was thoroughly laid?

 

PS - Geographically, Mat is west of Caemlyn, and Merrilor is north of Tar Valon. So he's pretty far away.

 

That's exactly what red herrings are. That's why they're red herrings.

A red herring is something that is supposed to distract you from something else. And if Sorilea was supposed to be a red herring, she wasn't a very good one, because RJ went out of his way to convince us that she was one of the good guys.

 

Weiramon was one of the first theories I posted on the Theoryland forums, and people made fun of me for thinking it was an original idea. His stupidity was a red herring.

 

Good points.

 

 

Fish

[yoniy0]

Linda has done great work on this sort of thing at 13th Depository, showing how RJ did this subtly with all Darkfriends.

I tried my best to locate that particular article, but came up empty (well, I did find some interesting stuff, such as Linda's arguments that Covril is a DF, but not what I set out to find). Can you help?

[Terez]

I'm not any better at finding stuff at 13th Depository than anyone else really. I emailed Linda; maybe she can help me. I have been meaning to ask her for a long time now. I know I remember reading it.

[Suttree]

I'm not any better at finding stuff at 13th Depository than anyone else really. I emailed Linda; maybe she can help me. I have been meaning to ask her for a long time now. I know I remember reading it.

 

Ahh the joys of navigating through 13 Depository! Never have figured that one out...

[dazparra]

when did this turn into a Sorilea is a Darkfriend thread.

Sorilea is not a darkfriend [Removed].

 

Now back to the field of Merrilor please

[Terez]

when did this turn into a Sorilea is a Darkfriend thread.

Sorilea is not a darkfriend [Removed]

[Removed] Would you care to place a bet?

[Terez]

Linda has done great work on this sort of thing at 13th Depository, showing how RJ did this subtly with all Darkfriends.

I tried my best to locate that particular article, but came up empty (well, I did find some interesting stuff, such as Linda's arguments that Covril is a DF, but not what I set out to find). Can you help?

Apparently Linda has never actually done an article on this. It's just something I've seen her post about, somewhere or another...on her forums, or on Wotmania/RAFO, probably. She boils it down to dark clothes, harsh or acutely contemptuous facial expressions, often being in the shadows, etc. To be honest, I haven't studied it outside of Sorilea, and it may be that Linda hasn't written an article on it because there are too many exceptions to the 'rules'. But the Sorilea tidbits don't really fall into the simple rules; her examples are a little more blatant, I think. I did a quick search though, and I noticed that he started describing Sorilea's shawl as 'dark' in TPOD, which is where he lays the plot for her confrontation with Cadsuane (though really the clues begin before then). I did a search for 'dark shawl' and came up with various descriptions of dark clothing. Look at the examples:

 

Delana

Katerine

Edarra (who I also believe is a Darkfriend)

Duhara

 

That's one page of results from KOD (I started at the end and skipped Brandon's books). I don't make this stuff up. But I went back another page and got Therava, Aviendha, Dorindha, and Moiraine. (NS is in between COT and KOD.) Went back another page and got Edarra again, Jarna Malari, and Moiraine's banker. Another page, Someryn, Aviendha again, Merilille. Sorilea, Nadere. So you see, not very helpful. Unless Aviendha and the Cairhienin are just description plants to keep us from reading too much into it.

[yoniy0]

Ah, well, I actually thought that was the best argument in your theory (ignoring, of course, the part about the DB). Now I'm back on the fence.

 

A quick question: if Sorilea saw the weaves Cadsuane used, why would SH need to intervene at all (as Brandon's answer hints he did)? Elza was fully capable of handling the situation on her own; all she would've needed was for Sorilea to show her the weaves and instruct her to free Semirhage (and, naturally, instruct her to advise Semi about the Compulsion).

 

dazparra, quite aside from being rude, you can't have your say in a discussion and declare that it's over in the same breath. We might deviated a bit, but Sorilea's allegiance is still relevant to whatever happens next. If you wish to direct the discussion to a different avenue, you're more than welcome.

[Terez]

Ah, well, I actually thought that was the best argument in your theory (ignoring, of course, the part about the DB). Now I'm back on the fence.

Well, I didn't even talk about clothes in my theory. The other stuff is solid.

 

A quick question: if Sorilea saw the weaves Cadsuane used, why would SH need to intervene at all (as Brandon's answer hints he did)? Elza was fully capable of handling the situation on her own; all she would've needed was for Sorilea to show her the weaves and instruct her to free Semirhage (and, naturally, instruct her to advise Semi about the Compulsion).

I'm thinking it was a matter of it being too important to screw up. So Shaidar Haran was needed to give the orders, among other things about which Brandon was not clear.

 

PS - a new interview with good tidbits. Figured I'd share.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=725

 

And some WoT production tidbits (ongoing):

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=724

 

Also, do you speak Russian by chance?

[yoniy0]

The other stuff is solid.

Respectfully, I disagree. It might amount to something, but then again...

 

among other things about which Brandon was not clear.

As I said, I consider the business with Elza the biggest argument for it, but it does have some holes in it too. Namely, what would those be? No reason at all for him to do anything, as I see it.

 

PS - a new interview with good tidbits. Figured I'd share.

Hey, thanks! Brandon lets it slip that what Aviendha saw could be averted. We better remember to ask about Nakomi, too.

 

Also, do you speak Russian by chance?

нет. It's funny, you're not the first to ask me that; though usually they just start speaking at me and I have to make it clear I didn't get a word of it.

[Hyronimus]

just a thought, but surely Sorilea will obtain an angreal at some point.

 

She knows the weaves for things way beyond her strength. Given that the single channalled flame witnessed by Perrin puts her at about Morraine's current strength - barely accepted and able to light a fire. And that Morraine's angreal, with it's noticably-for-darkfriend design makes me wonder what Sorilea would do with the strength to match her skills.

 

seems likely that Morraine and Sorilea first encounter will be at the field.

 

I dunno.

[Dreggs Morlock]

Terez, you nothing if not thorough. You never cease to amaze me.

 

I still disagree about Sorilea being a DF, but you I'm no longer married to my opinion. The Min thought of a Cad/Sorilea meeting could be innocent, in that anyone who has met two different people that have powerful type A personalities tend to wonder about the two of them bumping heads when they first meet. And usually, the spectators aren't disappointed.

 

My biggest problem with the "Sorilea as a DF" theory is up until tGS, she has done very little to further the interests of the Dark side for us to see. Think about the Black Aei Sedai in Elayne's group in books 8 and 9(ish); she was not very active, but she DID give the good guys fits went it really counted. I think it can be argued that Sorilea has more real power to negatively affect the good guys more than any other DF we have seen to date, and yet we only have innuendo to show for it.

[Terez]

Terez, you nothing if not thorough. You never cease to amaze me.

 

I still disagree about Sorilea being a DF, but you I'm no longer married to my opinion. The Min thought of a Cad/Sorilea meeting could be innocent, in that anyone who has met two different people that have powerful type A personalities tend to wonder about the two of them bumping heads when they first meet. And usually, the spectators aren't disappointed.

Yeah, and not only that, it's the sort of foreshadowing RJ loves. And everything fits.

 

My biggest problem with the "Sorilea as a DF" theory is up until tGS, she has done very little to further the interests of the Dark side for us to see.

One thing I mentioned is that she was very instrumental in leading the Wise Ones to break custom and use the Power at Dumai's Wells, and before then with Aviendha at the Battle of Cairhien. Dumai's Wells was particularly important because she had a long, drawn-out battle for control with Amys on the issue. Why is this important for the Shadow? As we saw with the Shaido, after their break with the other clans on the issue of the Car'a'carn, they started dropping customs like hot potatoes. Since ji'e'toh is what makes the Aiel cohesive as a society, the corruption of it has disastrous effects. On top of that, adding the Wise Ones to the equation of Power battles helps to make the destruction toll rise, and adds to the general perception that the Aes Sedai have broken their oaths to use the Power in battle. She coerced Min to tell her all of her viewings. She battled for control of the Aes Sedai prisoners, allowed Verin to question them and Compel them, and perhaps set Katerine free. She gave Verin the poison to kill Cadsuane, and wormed her way into the confidence of both Cadsuane and Rand. She continues to be influential among the Aiel, and we have no idea what she has managed to accomplish there. She might have a lot to do with the current Aiel attitude toward Rand as expressed by Rhuarc, and putting Rand in their debt opens the way up for them to resist him making peace with the Seanchan. She put Cadsuane in her debt, and thereby created the opportunity for betrayal in TGS. She couldn't have anticipated it specifically, but I'm sure she anticipated that there would come a time when that debt would prove useful. She also might have been the one to make sure that Darkfriends accompanied Perrin, and she might have sent the Aiel after the seals in LOC.

[AltonJakeStorey]

Terez, you nothing if not thorough. You never cease to amaze me.

 

I still disagree about Sorilea being a DF, but you I'm no longer married to my opinion. The Min thought of a Cad/Sorilea meeting could be innocent, in that anyone who has met two different people that have powerful type A personalities tend to wonder about the two of them bumping heads when they first meet. And usually, the spectators aren't disappointed.

Yeah, and not only that, it's the sort of foreshadowing RJ loves. And everything fits.

 

My biggest problem with the "Sorilea as a DF" theory is up until tGS, she has done very little to further the interests of the Dark side for us to see.

One thing I mentioned is that she was very instrumental in leading the Wise Ones to break custom and use the Power at Dumai's Wells, and before then with Aviendha at the Battle of Cairhien. Dumai's Wells was particularly important because she had a long, drawn-out battle for control with Amys on the issue. Why is this important for the Shadow? As we saw with the Shaido, after their break with the other clans on the issue of the Car'a'carn, they started dropping customs like hot potatoes. Since ji'e'toh is what makes the Aiel cohesive as a society, the corruption of it has disastrous effects. On top of that, adding the Wise Ones to the equation of Power battles helps to make the destruction toll rise, and adds to the general perception that the Aes Sedai have broken their oaths to use the Power in battle. She coerced Min to tell her all of her viewings. She battled for control of the Aes Sedai prisoners, allowed Verin to question them and Compel them, and perhaps set Katerine free. She gave Verin the poison to kill Cadsuane, and wormed her way into the confidence of both Cadsuane and Rand. She continues to be influential among the Aiel, and we have no idea what she has managed to accomplish there. She might have a lot to do with the current Aiel attitude toward Rand as expressed by Rhuarc, and putting Rand in their debt opens the way up for them to resist him making peace with the Seanchan. She put Cadsuane in her debt, and thereby created the opportunity for betrayal in TGS. She couldn't have anticipated it specifically, but I'm sure she anticipated that there would come a time when that debt would prove useful. She also might have been the one to make sure that Darkfriends accompanied Perrin, and she might have sent the Aiel after the seals in LOC.

 

This is very weak. Holding to tradition for traditions sake is the SAME mistake that the AS made. This merely shows that Sorilea is not as thick headed as they are. She saw how dishonorable the AS were, so she wanted to control them, and Cadsuane. You pile circumstantial evidence upon circumstantial evidence. This means you MAY be right, but it seems shaky to me. As for Else and the Male A'dam, SH solves the problems in my book. Again, Sorilea MAY be a DF, but I'm not convinced. I am presently reading TGS, part of my fifth reading of the series (it's actually my third time reading TGS), so I'll see if I change my mind.

[Terez]

This is very weak. Holding to tradition for traditions sake is the SAME mistake that the AS made. This merely shows that Sorilea is not as thick headed as they are. She saw how dishonorable the AS were, so she wanted to control them, and Cadsuane. You pile circumstantial evidence upon circumstantial evidence. This means you MAY be right, but it seems shaky to me. As for Else and the Male A'dam, SH solves the problems in my book. Again, Sorilea MAY be a DF, but I'm not convinced. I am presently reading TGS, part of my fifth reading of the series (it's actually my third time reading TGS), so I'll see if I change my mind.

You probably didn't bother to read the rest of the evidence, did you? This person just asked what she had done to further the Shadow's cause. You couldn't list so much for even Sheriam. The rest of the evidence is in a post I linked upthread. And it's only 'weak' evidence if you have a weak mind.

[AltonJakeStorey]

This is very weak. Holding to tradition for traditions sake is the SAME mistake that the AS made. This merely shows that Sorilea is not as thick headed as they are. She saw how dishonorable the AS were, so she wanted to control them, and Cadsuane. You pile circumstantial evidence upon circumstantial evidence. This means you MAY be right, but it seems shaky to me. As for Else and the Male A'dam, SH solves the problems in my book. Again, Sorilea MAY be a DF, but I'm not convinced. I am presently reading TGS, part of my fifth reading of the series (it's actually my third time reading TGS), so I'll see if I change my mind.

You probably didn't bother to read the rest of the evidence, did you? This person just asked what she had done to further the Shadow's cause. You couldn't list so much for even Sheriam. The rest of the evidence is in a post I linked upthread. And it's only 'weak' evidence if you have a weak mind.

 

Actually I read every post, and all links. Assumption is the sign of a weak mind, by the way. And I was saying that what they are listing as "helping the shadows cause".... isn't. It was simply a wise and wary women making wise and wary choices to protect the Aiel and the chief of chiefs. The only evidence that seemed even partially strong was about RJ foreshadowing DF's a certain way. But just looking into that a little makes it fall to pieces. All you have is: she might have done it, she could have done it, and she is one of two options for who helped Else. I think SH is the better choice for who helped Else, the arguments I've heard trying to imply that Sorilea is more likely don't really hold well. Malcolm's razor leaves SH as the best choice for who helped Else. Without that (helping Else) the sorilea argument is........ weak.

[yoniy0]

We will have no insults here (semi-veiled or otherwise), nor any retaliations. We all snap at other people from time to time, but the CoC is very clear on this matter.

 

Now, I agree that the only actual evidence is the part from TGS (the rest is suggestive at best), and that SH's involvement means that it's not the only explanation. Still, that doesn't mean that it's not true. I'm truly on the fence on this one.

BTW what's Malcolm's razor? Also, it's Elza Penfell. Else Grinwell was a novice in the Tower (for a very short time).

[Terez]

This is very weak. Holding to tradition for traditions sake is the SAME mistake that the AS made. This merely shows that Sorilea is not as thick headed as they are. She saw how dishonorable the AS were, so she wanted to control them, and Cadsuane. You pile circumstantial evidence upon circumstantial evidence. This means you MAY be right, but it seems shaky to me. As for Else and the Male A'dam, SH solves the problems in my book. Again, Sorilea MAY be a DF, but I'm not convinced. I am presently reading TGS, part of my fifth reading of the series (it's actually my third time reading TGS), so I'll see if I change my mind.

You probably didn't bother to read the rest of the evidence, did you? This person just asked what she had done to further the Shadow's cause. You couldn't list so much for even Sheriam. The rest of the evidence is in a post I linked upthread. And it's only 'weak' evidence if you have a weak mind.

 

Actually I read every post, and all links. Assumption is the sign of a weak mind, by the way.

Apparently you can't tell the difference between a theory and an assumption. The evidence is far from 'weak'. SH is not a better choice because of the evidence I gave, which you apparently have a difficult time comprehending.

 

Malcolm's razor

LOL

[Suttree]

Malcolm's razor

LOL

 

Good old William of Malcolm!

[yoniy0]

The evidence is far from 'weak'. SH is not a better choice because of the evidence I gave, which you apparently have a difficult time comprehending.

Ignoring the fact that this was kind'a what I asked you not to do (but I will lock this thread if this continues), I'm having a similarly hard time myself. We have:

(a) Sorilea's championing the cause of fighting WO's. As you yourself admit, this might well have been the work of a Light-sider, for all that Amys appears to have a hard time with it (and BTW, I'm not completely convinced that this is at the core of their LoC disagreement). You mention possible advantages to the Dark, but I think there is a clear advantage to the Light here, as well. It's a whole society which trains its channelers, and they're bound to be overwhelmly Light-siders (there are Aiel DF's, but I think every indication we have shows that ji'a'toh discourages this sort of behavior).

 

(b) Her treatment of the captured AS. In this aspect, as well, you'd expect nothing more from a disillusioned WO who's confronted with honorless AS. She does see potential, and she helps the 'girls' reach it. She certainly wasn't alone in her approach, there.

 

© Verin's comments. Now, this is a tough nut to crack, but I think it works against the theory you suggest as much as it does for it. While I have no earthly idea what "safety of a sort" is supposed to mean (since Verin sees her survival to be tied with understanding the balance of power in the camps, it could easily mean that she's glad of identifying at least one uncontested leader), the part about "In some ways, Sorilea was as hard as anyone she had ever met" doesn't fit a DF at all (otherwise it would've been the most obvious of ways, in which Sorilea was hard).

 

(d) A comment, here - I think it's funny to see Sorilea herself being described as 'hard'. Indeed, Aiel leaders all are somewhat hard, and there's nothing wrong with it. It's the degree to which Rand took it that's problematic. This, for example, is a benign explanation to another point, her apparent contradicting comments on hardness.

 

(e) Her putting Cadsuane in her debt. The part about how the first half of the discussion was just a guise for her true intentions (i.e., that she isn't interested in correcting Rand's behavior) is pure conjecture, you have to admit. Otherwise, why wouldn't a Light-sider Sorilea want to have Cads indebted to her?

 

(f) Being happy that Rand has a reason to trust her (or, as Min reads it, faking nonchalance) certainly isn't indicative of a DF Sorilea. By ACoS Rand trusts very little, even WO's, so why wouldn't she like it?

 

(g) The herbs. And what of it? We can assign to her any intentions we like, but none are more likely than another. Certainly, as you say yourself, if she had inkling of Verin's intentions to use them as poison, it's exceedingly odd for her to openly discuss them in front of Cadsuane.

 

(h) We have a number of other points, such as Sorilea's reaction to Alanna's fainting and her treatment of Samitsu. Truly, I see no reason in using those to indicate she has Dark allegiances.

 

(i) And now we come to the real evidence. As I said before, everything up to this point smacks me as grasping at straws. It's the sort of thing that would cause an amused nod after knowing her to be DF, but nothing that can be considered evidence (similar, say, to Verin's distributing candies to young novices). The deal with the Sad Bracelets. Certainly, the fact that they were retrieved by Elza (given that we know SH was involved) says little in this respect, but Sorilea's asking to see them certainly is telling. This is the main reason I tend to accept your theory, but just by a hair (since it could easily be misdirection on the part of RJ/BS). Saying that Semirhage should hang, on the other part, could definitely be explained away if she is a DF, but in no way could it be considered as an indication that she is one.

 

 

Let me repeat, on a different note, that this is the way I expect the discussion to evolve. Everyone is naturally free to keep explaining their views and present their logic, but repeating "is too / is not" and finding ever more subtle ways to suggest your fellow posters are idiots is certainly not constructive behavior.

 

Malcolm's razor

LOL

Good old William of Malcolm!

Now, will someone please explain this one to me?