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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Lord of the Grave


Vassili
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Just curious what fellow WoT enthusaists think about this. Ishamael/Moridin claims that the Dark One can bring the dead back to life. In part, we know this to be true for the Forsaken. However, the Forsaken are set apart for obvious reasons: they are darkfriends and have recieved the "chosen mark". So what about Ishamael's claim that the Dark One can resurect Ilyena, assuming she was not a darkfriend? On a similar note, what about Asmodean? And do the rules change if the DO "wins"?

 

I ask because for the longest time I've assumed only the Forsakens' souls could be seized due to the black cords that connect them to the DO. But, from comments I've read, many people believe any darkfriend that dies in failure is subject to damnation (or resurection). The fact that Ishamael died while his cord was cut (TDR) but still came back seems to blow holes in my understanding of things. However, if simply "being" a DF is enough to let the DO own your soul, what about people like Ingtar or Verin? Without absolute victory, can the DO subvert free-will?

 

Are there any interviews that clarify the limits (if any) to the DO's ability to seize souls?

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Just curious what fellow WoT enthusaists think about this. Ishamael/Moridin claims that the Dark One can bring the dead back to life. In part, we know this to be true for the Forsaken. However, the Forsaken are set apart for obvious reasons: they are darkfriends and have recieved the "chosen mark". So what about Ishamael's claim that the Dark One can resurect Ilyena, assuming she was not a darkfriend? On a similar note, what about Asmodean? And do the rules change if the DO "wins"?

 

I ask because for the longest time I've assumed only the Forsakens' souls could be seized due to the black cords that connect them to the DO. But, from comments I've read, many people believe any darkfriend that dies in failure is subject to damnation (or resurection). The fact that Ishamael died while his cord was cut (TDR) but still came back seems to blow holes in my understanding of things. However, if simply "being" a DF is enough to let the DO own your soul, what about people like Ingtar or Verin? Without absolute victory, can the DO subvert free-will?

 

Are there any interviews that clarify the limits (if any) to the DO's ability to seize souls?

 

Possible, I suppose, if she's an HoTH and could be ripped out like Birgitte was. However, I'm more inclined to think of that as stardust promises, you chase after an unreasonable dream until you are hopelessly lost in shadow. Probably starts with, "You only have to undo what you have wrought, LTT, break the seals. Oh, and commit your soul to Him."

 

After that, it doesn't matter whether he finds out the DO lied or not. He's screwed. (along with the rest of the world)

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Anyone considered the possibility of Moridin's link with Rand allowing the DO to resurect him?

Most people appear to believe Rand needs to turn for the DO to win, what if the DO's backup plan is to seize the Dragon soul via the Moridin link?

 

Rand resurected + instant 13 x 13

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The Chosen Mark is not necessary for the DO to seize a soul. In theory he has access to any soul he wants. However, there is a very small window for him to do so, it would have to be a soul he is paying some attention to. And in the case of Ilyena, I think the seal being all new and shiny would have prevented any soulgrabbing even if the DO had wanted to.

 

A man asked if the Dark One can resurrect anyone after death?

RJ answered that, yes, the Dark One can resurrect any soul, but probably doesn't want to bring back someone who hates him.

 

 

Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?<br id="kidt" style="font-family: verdana; font-size: small; ">Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.<br id="wlfa" style="font-family: verdana; font-size: small; "><br id="giw_" style="font-family: verdana; font-size: small; ">

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

 

 

Tam: Ouch - Okay, now that you have killed my black cord theory, are the oath and covenants Forsaken make with the Dark One necessary for the Dark One to transmigrate a soul? Jordan: They are not necessary, but he is not likely to do it for anyone who hasn't done, who hasn't sworn to him. <br id="tjxc" style="font-family: verdana; font-size: small; ">Tam: He doesn't have access to all souls to be able to grab any soul?<br id="n1ec" style="font-family: verdana; font-size: small; ">Jordan: No, no, no. Because of the Bore and the fact that the Bore is best perceived, the Bore doesn't really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, it's simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere, or did, and uh, that's, when you know, Rahvin died, Rahvin is balefired out of time, slain out of time, cannot be reached, gone. Be'lal, (names someone else). <br id="kts7" style="font-family: verdana; font-size: small; ">Tamyrlin: Well, then is there something unique about the Forsaken other than the fact that they are his favorites that he would transmigrate them, or be able to?<br id="tpji" style="font-family: verdana; font-size: small; ">

Jordan: Well, he would have been a lot less likely to in an earlier time when they were a lot of powerful, knowledgeable channelers who were in his service. Essentially half the people in the world who could channel were on his side, during the War of the Shadow. Now he has very few, he's got the Black Ajah, and a few wilders, and some stuff I ain't going in to, but uh he doesn't have a lot, but he can't afford to waste assets.

 

 

https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_53c74tbncv&revision=_latest&pli=1

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