Seanchan "attack" on the White Tower?

[algspkr]

I think I agree with cloglord about horn and Fain not knowing where it but I will ask. Are there any indications that Fain knows where the Horn is? I mean Fain found the dagger cuz it's part of Mordeth who is part of Fain.

Fain knows that it is in the Tower, this is evidenced when he grabs his dagger, but he did not have time to look for it so he does not know where in the Tower it is.

2. What are Fists of Heavan never heard of 'em? Thanks

Fists of Heavan have been mentioned in a few Seanchan PoVs. They are the troops specifically(sp?) trained to conduct "air drops". The only PoV I can name off the top of my head is when Elayne was unweaving her gateway.

 

There is another one where the Fists of Heavan are compared to Deathwatch Gaurds, but I do not remember where it is.

[DemandredFO]

Thanks I forget about that. Ok that makes sense about Fain, I stand corrected

[cloglord]

Fain might think that it is in the tower, but he has no way to know for sure. Even if he guessed correctly, which seems to be the case, it is like saying that the bowl of the winds is in Ebou Dar. knowing roughly were something is, does not mean that Fain has any access to it.

[Luckers]

I must sadly concede, with apologies. When i went to look before making that post, i noted that Fain glanced at something gold, and later is annoyed that he can't grab the horn, but you are right, the gold was not the horn.

[Guest Anonymous!]

CrazyMike I'm uncertain where your confusion is coming from... so I don't know how to respond. I will say this, I posted a theory earlier, and algspkr, Luckers and Mik provided me with some feedback. The post that confused you was in response to that feedback. If that helps any.

 

Wow. Right now I’m literally arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

...If I understood correct it refered to teaching the Senchan to make gateways,,, if so then ,,, Alivia rabidly hates the Senchan and only wants any and every opportunity to kill them ,,, I doubt she would agree to teach them anything unless she veiwed it as an opportunity to kill a bunch of them...

 

...Alivia despises the Seanchan, but if instructed to a bonded Aes Sedai would have to teach them, so that is a means to accomplish this...

 

Once again, I think its more likely that the Seanchan would get gateways from discovery than Rand giving it to them. But I disagree that Alivia would not do it. Here is why:

 

In KoD, (page 417-420, Hard Cover)

She also had woven a parasol against the rain, as had Alivia, although not until she saw the Green do it. Rand had tried to make the sisters sworn to him teach the Seanchan woman more about the Power, but in their minds, that had nothing to do with their oaths of fealty.

…

“Let me try, my Lord.†She asked, in a manner of speaking, but like an Aes Sedai, she did not await permission. His skin tingled with goose bumps as she embraced saidar and channeled.

…

“So you watch,†she said to Alivia. Her dark eyes were fixed on the Seanchan woman’s face, but Alivia did not start or stammer. She was much less impressed by Aes Sedai than most people.

“And remember what I see. I must learn somehow if I am to help the Lord Dragon. I have learned more than you are aware of.†Min made a sound in her throat, very nearly a growl, and the bond swelled with anger, but the yellow-haired woman ignored her. “You are not angry with me?†she asked Rand, her voice anxious.

“I’m not angry. Learn as much as you can. You’re doing very well.â€

She blushed and dropped her eyes like a girl startled by an unexpected compliment. Fine lines decorated the corners of her eyes, but sometimes it was hard to remember that she was a hundred years older than any living Aes Sedai, rather than half a dozen years younger than himself…

 

I include the passages because of two very important points made in that scene. I think many people overlook its significance because in the next few paragraphs Min begins to whine about Rand not giving in to her foretelling. The first most important point is that even though the Aes Sedai have sworn to serve Rand, they still manage to get around the oath (like always). I’m pretty sure the Aes Sedai would consider teaching the Seanchan gateways for a peace deal not included in their oath of fealty, as well.

 

Alivia does hate the Seanchan with a passion, and fearing her going crazy at the first site of a Sul’dam is very reasonable. Alivia’s age is estimated at up around 400 years. That means she has been a damane for a better part of 380 years (mind-boggling). That’s nearly four centuries of routine and subservience. Four centuries of being treated little better than a dog and having no will of her own. You do not shake that kind of learned behavior in 1 year of freedom. People are creatures of habit. She has got to be very conflicted right now. She has a taste of freedom and will never go back to slavery, but could you imagine being free for the first time in 380 years. It would be terrifying, and people fall back on what they know in order to find comfort.

 

Rand is the person who freed her. The Aes Sedai are the ones who kept her in an A’dam for the next few months until she was safe to unleash, not Rand. She rebelled against the Aes Sedai in Caemlyn, not Rand. Rand is the person who has put trust and faith in her. He has put his life in his hands. She will still revert to her learned behavior of serving, but it won’t be to the Aes Sedai. I think it was to Rand. Read that passage she calls him “my lord†and “lord dragonâ€. She clearly reveres him. She says “ I must learn somehow if I am to help the Lord Dragon.†She is willing to follow him. She has made a choice to help him. Probably the first choice she has made in nearly 4 centuries. That’s significant. She blushes when Rand compliments her and behaves as if she is a schoolgirl, which is not surprising because she probably has the emotional development of a teenager. We know how Sul’dam treat Damane. If I didn’t know better it seemed like she had a crush on Rand. She is at least fond of him and desires his good-will.

 

You may read this scene and interaction as different, but I think she is Rand’s Man… or Woman as it were. She is loyal to Rand. If Rand asked her to kill him … I don’t think she would. But if Rand told her he needed Alivia to kill him … she would. Just like if Rand asked Alivia to teach the Seanchan gateways, I don’t think she would. But if he needed her too, … that’s a different story.

 

...We see in an Egwene PoV that raids are being conducted on the rebels. The only signifigant force Elaida has outside of the Tower that we know of are Gawyn's Younglings...

 

In CoT (page 803, paperback), Ragan speaking to Egwene:

 

’Honor to serve Mother.’ he said formally. ‘Lord Byrne sent me. He said to tell you that it seems the raiders may have crossed to this side of the river last night. With Aes Sedai. Lord Byrne is doubling the patrols. He advises that sisters stay close to the camp. To avoid incidents.’

 

It’s possible for raiders to have crossed the river and conducted the raids. It doesn’t have to be Gawyn. The harbors were open. Men could have come with Aes Sedai by boat and attack anywhere along the river bank. Gawyn had three hundred men hiding out in Dorlan. Dorlan is a hamlet of fifteen houses. Clearly, Byrne’s men didn’t search that town very hard. Plus it is located right at one of Tar Valon bridges. This would indicate to me that Byrne has not stationed people in Dorlan to watch the bridge, meaning passage across that particular bridge is still open. We saw an emissary arrive to talk to Gawyn. I don’t think her mode of arrival was disclosed. So why couldn’t a small raiding party march across the bridge as well. Even if you are right, Gawyn was ordered to conduct the raids the night Egwene was captured. That was 10 days ago. It does not preclude him from becoming involved in Egwene’s storyline. He’s less than a mile and a half from Egwene, and all indications are that no hostile forces stand between Gawyn and the City. It’s possible, and certainly reasonable.

[CrazyMike]

Anonymous!

 

I agree about Alivia total devotion to Rand ,,, I think ,,, Alivia's devotion is childlike ,,, a child to parent type devotion that is the only mental and emotional personality that she has,,, after nearly 400 years of being a Damane, Alivia is probibly totaly unable to change that personality trait, so now RAND is Alivia's new daddy, new parent...

 

before anybody tries to flame this think about it...

 

The Senchen reduce the Damane individual emotional mentality to the status of a child and I would say a child of 3 or 4 years old or younger, and tho the books describe it as tho they are pets, the trueth is humans treat their pets as small children , whether it is a dog or a cat , and often substitute dogs and cats for children in their lives, even a working relationship with animals is a parent child relationship,,, shepards and their Sheep Dogs are father child, police and their dogs are parent child,,, tho working relations tend to promote the pet to the status of Teenager or pre-teen ,,, anyone who has ever had a pet relizes this if they think about it,,, so when you take a Damane/Child from her Suldam/Parent she goes crazy like any child would,,, and if you give her a new parent she will lock on with a desperate bear hug and not let go for fear of losing her new parent,,, be very protective and terrotorial(spelling-so what) and very happy with any praise and affection she receives from her new parent...

 

Alivia is now Rands little girl and she is totaly devoted and she blushes and is happy when Rand praises her or shows any parental type of care or concern...

 

But she has been shown that the Senchen are evil liars who decieved her and took advantge of her,,, like a Child that had been kidnapped as a baby and raised by bad people that abused her ,,, and now the people that rescued her and have shown her a happy and wonderful new life are being her parents and trying to raise their little girl to be happy and well adjusted adult, like any good parents...

 

Alivia, loves her new family, and may even have a crush on her daddy (Rand) and may even feel competitive with her Cold hearted mommy (Min) for her Dadies affections...

 

BUT, like any small child , Alivia will not play nice with the bad people who hurt her and abused her in the past,,, and I do not believe she would ever train the Senchen without exacting a terrible revenge on them , asany child would, even if Rand Needs her to...

[rd2000]

While I was re-reading tFoH, I noticed that Luckers was (as usual) right!

 

This is from the paperback, page 27. It is Fain thinking to himself while in the presence of Elaida.

 

The Tower held things worth a little patience in its strongrooms. The Horn of Valere was there, the fabled Horn made to call dead heroes back from the grave for the Last Battle. Even most of the Aes Sedai were ignorant of that, but he knew how to sniff out things. The dagger was there. He felt its pull where he stood.

 

So, Fain definately knew the Horn was in the Tower. His thoughts imply that some others of the Aes Sedai knew it was there also. "Most" of the Aes Sedai doesn't seem to me like "all but one or two".

 

Merry Christmas Luckers! you were right!

[RobertAlexWillis]

Fain definitely knows more about it than most, but there is alot of difference between knowing it is "somewhere in the Tower" and being able to put your hands on it. At least three Aes Sedai knew that the Horn was in the Tower (Moiraine, along with Verin and Siuan), and by now, several more (The wonder girls, probably a few in the Black Ajah, and maybe a couple more smart ones) know that much, however, only two (Verin and Siuan) know exactly where it is, unless Siuan saw fit to tell Egwene (which we haven't seen her do).

 

So Fain knows in a general sense where it is, but not specifically where it is hidden.

[cloglord]

Thanks Robert you beat me to it.

 

Also thanks r2d200 for pointing out what I'd already said. Padan Fain does in fact believe that it is in the tower. He has no evidence that it is, except that the dagger that was with it ended up in the tower. You're right, Fain believes it is in the tower, just like a bunch of randlanders who believe that the amrylin seat has the seals on the dark one's prison, and a bunch of people who believe that Rand killed Morgase. The difference being that Padan Fain guessed correctly, instead of being wrong. If I were to guess that you were a 6 year old girl living in Guam, I could be right, I could even believe it, but if you aren't it makes me no less wrong.

 

Also, Merry Christmas Luckers, we're not wrong!

[RobertAlexWillis]

The difference being that Padan Fain guessed correctly, instead of being wrong.

 

Well ... its a well-informed guess for Fain, rather than a random guess, like the 6 year old in Guam thing. Fain knows the Horn was blown at Falme, he knows about Mat and the dagger, and he knew that whoever was there took them both, and he knew that the dagger was in the Tower. So, he had reason to "guess" that it was in the Tower.

 

There is a difference between "You're a little girl in Guam" and "I have evidence that the Horn is in the Tower".

 

And man .... would I make one ugly little girl. I'm not even that great as a 30 year old guy ... :D