The True Nature of the Creator and Dark One...

[funsize]

Do you know what a prison is? It is something you use to keep the evil away from society. Which is exactly what the pattern is doing. So the pattern is still the prison.

 

The pattern is what keeps everything in place. So this even turns your egg theory on its head.

 

And I didn't even have to write a story.

 

The Creator takes no part because he knows he is a tool just like everything else, therefore reinforcing the point that is up to humanity to save itself. Therefore reinforcing my point about the creator being creation itself and by extension the prison.

 

Your third point is contradictory to your over-arching point. And reinforces the one I just made, which I also made in my previous post.

 

Lanfear had to destroy creation itself, or at least a small part, to get to the Dark One, who is Destruction itself. So Lanfear was just an agent of the Dark One even then, or at least his "attitude" if you must look at it that way. And we all know the Dark One has power to defeat the Creator because of his impartiality.

 

And what the effing eff. You keep on contradicting yourself. First you say the TP is the essence of the Dark One/Destruction, then you say the Essence of the Creator must be the opposite (OP, I mean seriously. It's not that hard. What the hell do you even do with the OP? You create shit out of thin air. ESSENCE OF CREATION). So the essence is even the extension. Because creation and destruction are ongoing.

 

Perhaps others can correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't think assertions such as Jesus has sinned and Lucifer and Jesus are one and the same would be considered mainstream Christian teachings?

 

Mainstream Christian Teachings != Christianity. Jesus himself said he is the Bright and Morning Star (Latin translation: Lucifer). Do you know why Jesus was baptised by John? Because Baptism is being washed clean of Sin. So there. Besides, RJ himself said what you think to be true and what is true are not necessarily one and the same. Which is pretty Jesus.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Basically, I am going to leave it at that. Clearly you dont wish to debate the point. You wish to abuse anyone who challanges your opinion. When you want to have a serious debate, contact me. Till then, I shall leave it at this. Your theory is valid, thus is mine.

 

Perhaps I seem like I am "avoiding" answering your question. I would be happy to address all of your points. However, I do not wish to start a debate, which obviously you feel very strongly about. I will not engage in slinging insults every-which-way. Forgive me if I interpreted your post wrong, but it seemed quite hostile, I have no interest in such a debate.

[Suttree]

Do you know what a prison is? It is something you use to keep the evil away from society. Which is exactly what the pattern is doing. So the pattern is still the prison.

 

The pattern is what keeps everything in place. So this even turns your egg theory on its head.

 

And I didn't even have to write a story.

 

The Creator takes no part because he knows he is a tool just like everything else, therefore reinforcing the point that is up to humanity to save itself. Therefore reinforcing my point about the creator being creation itself and by extension the prison.

 

Your third point is contradictory to your over-arching point. And reinforces the one I just made, which I also made in my previous post.

 

Lanfear had to destroy creation itself, or at least a small part, to get to the Dark One, who is Destruction itself. So Lanfear was just an agent of the Dark One even then, or at least his "attitude" if you must look at it that way. And we all know the Dark One has power to defeat the Creator because of his impartiality.

 

Funsize the quote provided above directly state the pattern and prison are separate. You offer no counter for that, but instead get all edgy that someone would dare disagree and go on to present even more assumptions. In addition if the pattern and prison are the same does that mean the DO and the Creator exist in the same place as they are both "outside" the Pattern?

 

Few things to consider.

 

We know for fact that the Creator made the pattern

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 18 January 2003, Harvard Coop - Tallis reporting

 

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from ... creating ... the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

 

Also it is the Wheel that guides the pattern. The pattern can drift...

 

DragonCon 5 September 2005 - Tamyrlin reporting

 

Question: At the end of The Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the One Power or something done by the Creator, how did they appear in the sky?

Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasn't the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out ta'veren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false Dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false Dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one Dragon.

 

Lastly in regards to the OP you do not create it out of thin air. It is finite, channelers are merely drawing on it.

 

JWB: Is the One Power finite or infinite?

RJ: The One Power is finite but cannot be used up. When the weave is done, it returns to the Source.

[funsize]

Clearly you don't wish to debate the point if you must accuse me of insulting. Where did I insult you? All I have given you are words which are dead in inert. You have ascribed these so called insults to them yourself, not me.

 

Abuse? How dare you. Hostility? How dare you. And don't think this is hostility either. Just read the first line again. Or if I must explain: how dare you accuse me of something I didn't do. Still not hostile.

 

And I did not state the prison and pattern are separate. Do you know what a prison is? It's something you use to keep the evil away from society. Which is exactly what the pattern is doing. Where did I state they were separate? So there's my counter. Don't state I offer no counter before I even have a chance to.

 

I have already stated that the Creator is creation itself/the pattern/what have you. So the Creator and Dark One exist as two halves of one space. Because the Dark One is Destruction the antithesis of Creation.

 

The Wheel is a tool of the Creator. It is impartial. It simply creates. Spit out Ta'veren because it needs it? Sounds like the Creator and the Dragon. The Creator created the Wheel. The Creator created this self correcting effect. It is just an extension of the Creator.

 

You seem to be suggesting I said you create the OP out of thin air. Please correct me if I'm wrong. But I did not state that, I said you use it to create out of thin air.

 

And about those assumptions...please tell me what they were and correct them, otherwise you offer nothing but conjecture yourself. All of my so called assumptions (or at least anything I can see in that post since I don't know what these assumptions are) can be tied to things stated by RJ.

[Suttree]

Clearly you don't wish to debate the point if you must accuse me of insulting. Where did I insult you? All I have given you are words which are dead in inert. You have ascribed these so called insults to them yourself, not me.

 

Abuse? How dare you. Hostility? How dare you. And don't think this is hostility either. Just read the first line again. Or if I must explain: how dare you accuse me of something I didn't do. Still not hostile.

 

Go back and read the thread, others accused you as well.

 

And I did not state the prison and pattern are separate. Do you know what a prison is? It's something you use to keep the evil away from society. Which is exactly what the pattern is doing. Where did I state they were separate? So there's my counter. Don't state I offer no counter before I even have a chance to.

 

I know, it was I along with the BWB quote provided that state they are separate. Hence the quote "above" that post.

 

BWB

It was not an indivisible source of the One Power the team had discovered, but the place outside of the Pattern where the Dark One had been imprisoned since the moment of creation. The emanations Mierin and the others had sensed with such hope were his dark energies, trapped just beyond the thin place in the pattern that covered his prison

 

Also if all you points can be tied to statements made by RJ please provide the evidence. Folks, I think we have another Felix Pax on our hands.

[master]

JWB: Is the One Power finite or infinite?

RJ: The One Power is finite but cannot be used up. When the weave is done, it returns to the Source.

 

So it would be a bad idea to use the source to taint tge dark one. That goes one of my theories out the window.

[funsize]

Suttree, that first one wasn't directed at you. Your defense to this imagined attack at you isn't even relevant.

 

Do you know what a prison is? It is a room surrounded by walls. Are the walls the prison? Is the room the prison?

 

I can provide the evidence you seek. Can you do what I asked of you and show me these so called assumptions? But until I know what it is you take issue with then I will not.

[Dagon Thyne]

Care to elaborate on these odd notions? How could you even be comfortable saying that with your limited knowledge?

 

Perhaps others can correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't think assertions such as Jesus has sinned and Lucifer and Jesus are one and the same would be considered mainstream Christian teachings?

 

The Dark One was originally sealed at the moment of Creation until Lanfear bore a hole in the pattern itself, freeing him. And this wasn't actually a specific location in the pattern cause it's all metaphysical and shit. And even Travelling with the True Power tears the pattern. And Rand has to destroy the seals and rebuild the prison, but if the Dark One was originally freed because of a hole in the pattern then the pattern is the prison, yes? But the pattern is creation itself, so if Dark One = Destruction then Creator = Creation, and there you have it. This even ties in with that Perfect Creator thing above, since, ya know, it's up to Creation to save itself...

 

Lanfear drilled through the pattern into the DO's prison.

 

BWB

It was not an indivisible source of the One Power the team had discovered, but the place outside of the Pattern where the Dark One had been imprisoned since the moment of creation. The emanations Mierin and the others had sensed with such hope were his dark energies, trapped just beyond the thin place in the pattern that covered his prison

 

 

Actually the Bore did not literally penetrate the Dark One's prison. It was actually that the power used to create the Bore caused the prison to shatter. The Dark One was then able to try to move through the Bore into the material world. also, the only reason they sensed the dark one was because of the fact that they could since the True Power, which can be viewed by both sexes. That is why they tried to drill the Bore in the first place. They thought they had discovered a source of the One Power that was not devided and could be used by both men and woman, and were trying to access it.

[Suttree]

Actually the Bore did not literally penetrate the Dark One's prison. It was actually that the power used to create the Bore caused the prison to shatter. The Dark One was then able to try to move through the Bore into the material world. also, the only reason they sensed the dark one was because of the fact that they could since the True Power, which can be viewed by both sexes. That is why they tried to drill the Bore in the first place. They thought they had discovered a source of the One Power that was not devided and could be used by both men and woman, and were trying to access it.

 

I have always read it as the drilling through to the DO(hence through his prison) with OP that caused the damage. Although the prison did not shatter, there is merely a small whole in it.

 

BWB

 

Using the One Power, in what was, they hoped, the last time saidin and saidar would be separated, Mierin and the team bored through to the source of the unusual Power emanations.

 

The resulting backlash destroyed the floating Sharom, shattering it like the egg it so resembled, and creating ripples in the fabric of reality as shock waves from the breach shook the Pattern. It was not an indivisible source of the One Power the team had discovered, but the place outside of the Pattern where the Dark One had been imprisoned since the moment of creation.

 

and yes Lanfear did drill through the pattern into the prison...

 

Brandon from Mission Viejo: Mr. Jordan, it's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each Age before the opening of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks.

RJ: Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a makeshift manner. But following this line, the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless, of course, the Dark One breaks free, in which case all bets are off -- kick over the table and run for the window.

[Eichhörnchen]

I believe we cannot view the Creator/DO relationship in the Judeo-Christo-Islamic (Abrahamic) view. In Randland it is made fairly clear that the two are equal halves or opposite sides of the coin one is not necessarily more powerful than the other, nor can one be destroyed, merely detained. In the Abrahamic view of Creator and Darkness there is some complexity, such as God is not necessarily "good," he is God. He can create and destroy. In the Abrahamic faiths Satan/Shaitan was the grandest creation of God in power and glory, the closest being to an equal that existed yet still a creation. In Randland the entire symbolism and language indicates more that the two forces are in constant balance of eachother.

 

To further extrapolate. In Randland we get the impression, or at least I get the impression, that there are two greater divine entities which are described as the Creator and the Dark One. Whether these can even be characterized as figures or are merely an essence which presents itself in the mind of the figure it touches in the way we humans can be comprehend it (a voice or a vision). However the division between the forces is quite clear. One force represents strict order and endless servitude to a predestined pattern whilst the other force represents pure chaos and extreme liberty devoid of any imposing structuralism.

[funsize]

In the Abrahamic view God renders judgment unto the Son, i.e. Jesus, which is exactly what the Creator has done with the Dragon. So he doesn't destroy. And the Creator is not necessarily good either, I don't see what you're getting at. And there is no statement that Satan was God's grandest creation. He was never even described as being near equal. Where did you get this from?

 

And Satan is detained in Hell.

 

And the creator doesn't represent servitude to a predestined pattern or even strict order, it's been said that the pattern weaves threads as it needs to, not before. Besides if there was a strict order the Creator would have a direct hand in day to day life, instead he let's Creation handle itself. So no predestined pattern, just a predefined structure.

[Jon Paul]

Since every other Tom, Dick and Harry has prefaced their posts with this statement I suppose I should as well: I'm not debating Christianity. I am having a friendly discussion about it . If people which to speak about Christian inspirations and influences on the Wheel of Time, all well and good, but we must first know what Christianity its self is saying. Otherwise you do a disservice to both!

 

I am a Catholic. I believe Protestants hold to many heresies. I believe the Eastern Orthodox are in schism as well as holding to heresies of their own. However I will approach this from a general perspective. With truths held by all three in common.

 

Also, finnland, I'm not sure how familiar you are with the Character of Jesus, but he was not said to be without sin - so it is written, every man sins and falls short of the glory of God and that includes the Son of Man.

 

This is not, and I heartily repeat is not Christian Teaching. Even the Protestant recognises the sinlessness of Jesus Christ. It is a universal aspect of Christian theology, something the Rome, Geneva and Moscow all agree on. Jesus Christ was sinless. Otherwise His Sacrifice would not have been able to facilitate the redemption of Mankind.

 

Lets see what the Holy Scriptures say on this matter yes?

 

[16]Because it is written: You shall be holy, for I am holy. [17] And if you invoke as Father him who, without respect of persons, judgeth according to every one's work: converse in fear during the time of your sojourning here. [18] Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things as gold or silver, from your vain conversation of the tradition of your fathers: [19] But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb unspotted and undefiled, [20] Foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but manifested in the last times for you,

 

[. . .]

 

[21] For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps. [22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth. [23] Who, when he was reviled, did not revile: when he suffered, he threatened not: but delivered himself to him that judged him unjustly. [24] Who his own self bore our sins in his body upon the tree: that we, being dead to sins, should live to justice: by whose stripes you were healed. [25] For you were as sheep going astray; but you are now converted to the shepherd and bishop of your souls.

 

[21] Him' date=' [b']who knew no sin,[/b] he hath made sin for us, that we might be made the justice of God in him.

 

Hath made sin for us, That is, to be a sin offering, a victim for sin. This is the constant Teaching of Christian theologians throughout 2000 years of history. And this can also be deduced by the next sentence, that we might be made the justice of God in him. Otherwise we would have to state that there is error in the Scriptures and contradictions which cannot be so.

 

I can provide more Scriptural, both Old and New, if necessary. And the full body of Patristic and Scholastic writers if it comes to it. I don't think that is necessary though. This is universal teaching of all Christians and should be enough for even an honest minded atheist that this is Christian teaching. He doesn't have to believe it but it would be an injustice to say that that is not Christian teaching.

 

Surely you are familiar with the parable of the Prodigal Son, which is a parable about Jesus himself, the Prodigal Son?

 

I'm sorry but all I need to reply to this is a simple: "no". Such a view of this parable is not found anywhere in two thousand years of Christian history. It can be dismissed out of hand.

 

Perhaps it would help your understanding to know that Lucifer and Jesus are the same man.

 

Eh.. look even Nietzsche wouldn't have the sheer nerve to say that Christians believe that.

 

So the Character of Rand is in keeping with the Character of Jesus, although his falling onto his father in tears is a parallel rather than a mirror...besides, the "perfect sacrifice" as you have put it isn't about being without sin, it's about offering yourself up to death for being a sinner, something no true sinner would do. And also because you've got a goddamn job to do just like Jairus the Centurion (Rand realised he is a tool just like everyone else - which is pretty Jesus because Lucifer would not be the tool of an inferior creature, and this is actually the essence of the Dark One). So this is even the being a man/being a hero dichotomy you so astutely pointed out, which is indeed very Christian, yes indeedy. But we all know that Christianity itself borrowed from what was already established, just as RJ has done...

 

Okay wait.. clear something up for me before I address the necessity of a sinless sacrifice (besides black and white Scriptural statements saying He was sinless).

 

You said Jesus and Lucifer are one and the same.. and yet here you are talking of them as two different people?

 

And God is not at all participatory in Creation - he created everything, sure, but he lives in Eden, where we do not (Creator and flower parallels for the win). He renders Judgment unto the Son and plays no part (i.e. he is impartial, and that is to be truly without sin), just like the Creator who gave his Champion the choice to do the job he was given. Myself, I interpret this story as just another interpretation of the Universal Secret of All Time (or gender conflict, if you will :P)

 

God is participatory in His creation primarily in several ways. Firstly in sustaining creation.. if God did not sustain creation it would cease to be. Secondly in His Providence ordering all things to His ends. And last but certainly not least He is a participant in His creation by having assumed to Himself a human nature when He took flesh in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary and died for our sins with His Sacrifice for our Redemption. He is truly God and Man in heaven right now as He was when He first became Incarnate 2000 years ago.

 

He has given Man over to the Judgement of His Son but then we would have to ask why we need the Son as our advocate with the Father if the Father is simply doesn't give a fig.. in fact we would have to ask why the Father even gave His Only Begotten Son to Man in the first place.

 

but I thought it was the best way to make a point.

 

Look believe want to want to believe. Create your own theology till your heart's content. That's between you and God at your Judgement. Just do not say it's Christianity. It doesn't work like that.

[Dagon Thyne]

In the Abrahamic view God renders judgment unto the Son, i.e. Jesus, which is exactly what the Creator has done with the Dragon. So he doesn't destroy. And the Creator is not necessarily good either, I don't see what you're getting at. And there is no statement that Satan was God's grandest creation. He was never even described as being near equal. Where did you get this from?

 

And Satan is detained in Hell.

 

And the creator doesn't represent servitude to a predestined pattern or even strict order, it's been said that the pattern weaves threads as it needs to, not before. Besides if there was a strict order the Creator would have a direct hand in day to day life, instead he let's Creation handle itself. So no predestined pattern, just a predefined structure.

 

 

The God/Satan relationship is not the same as Creator/Dark One........The Dark One is the Creator's equal. Satan was the creation of God.

[Dagon Thyne]

Actually the Bore did not literally penetrate the Dark One's prison. It was actually that the power used to create the Bore caused the prison to shatter. The Dark One was then able to try to move through the Bore into the material world. also, the only reason they sensed the dark one was because of the fact that they could since the True Power, which can be viewed by both sexes. That is why they tried to drill the Bore in the first place. They thought they had discovered a source of the One Power that was not devided and could be used by both men and woman, and were trying to access it.

 

I have always read it as the drilling through to the DO(hence through his prison) with OP that caused the damage. Although the prison did not shatter, there is merely a small whole in it.

 

BWB

 

Using the One Power, in what was, they hoped, the last time saidin and saidar would be separated, Mierin and the team bored through to the source of the unusual Power emanations.

 

The resulting backlash destroyed the floating Sharom, shattering it like the egg it so resembled, and creating ripples in the fabric of reality as shock waves from the breach shook the Pattern. It was not an indivisible source of the One Power the team had discovered, but the place outside of the Pattern where the Dark One had been imprisoned since the moment of creation.

 

and yes Lanfear did drill through the pattern into the prison...

 

Brandon from Mission Viejo: Mr. Jordan, it's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each Age before the opening of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks.

RJ: Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a makeshift manner. But following this line, the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless, of course, the Dark One breaks free, in which case all bets are off -- kick over the table and run for the window.

 

This means that my theory could be true....that the Creator remakes the prison after each turning.

[Suttree]

This means that my theory could be true....that the Creator remakes the prison after each turning.

 

Isn't that the DR's job? I guess your theory could be true if Rand doesn't fix it, but since he has already decided another patch won't work("clear the rubble") I find the highly unlikely. In addition as RJ has told us on many occasions the Creator takes no part.

[funsize]

I am not contending that this is Christian teaching. But as I said before, [Mainstream] Christian Teachings != Christianity.

 

And are you implying that I am an atheist? I said nothing of the sort.

 

But if you are so confident Jesus was without sin, please explain to me why it was necessary for him to be washed clean of sin by John the Baptist.

 

What is the difference between the older son, who says he will do his Father's work but does not go out and do it, and the younger son, who says he will not do it but later goes out and does it? And the Pharisees were outraged for they knew this was spoken against them.

 

Did not Jesus teach that we are all the same, that we are all equal? He is Lucifer in his mind but in his heart He is Jesus, and we all know that stuff about the treasure. We are all Lucifer. Please try not to misconstrue that one either. Also, Lucifer was cast into Hell for refusing to serve, yes? And Jesus was crucified for refusing to serve the will of the Pharisees.

 

Creation would not cease to exist without God's participation. How can you make such a sweeping claim, do you have any evidence to back it up (do you see what I did there? All I did was say no u and you can't prove me wrong. Just an equal and opposite reaction)? And you assume God is himself a Man, but if he was a Man why would he need to assume human form? What if you realised he is simply a presence?

 

God is omniscient, yes? What if you realised that God is omniscience? That's why he simply doesn't give a fig, because he's not a person. Hence why Judgment is rendered unto the Son. And did God give you the Son, or was it the Son who delivered himself?

 

And that last statement...why don't you apply that one to yourself. How is your interpretation any better than mine? Has the Son judged it?

 

@Dragon Thyne: I did not say the Creator/Dark One relationship was the same as God/Satan. Also, who said Satan was created by God? Perhaps you became confused, I was only showing you that you can in fact view WoT through a "Christian lens". Or maybe Christianity through a "WoT" lens.

 

Personally I think it would have been cooler if RJ kept an unadulterated yin/yang symbol instead of the solid colour choice...then you'd be able to see the hole they drilled.

[Kelandon]

Thoroughly uninteresting religious debates aside...

 

I think there's something funky going on with the fact that the Aes Sedai symbol looks like a yin-yang without the dots. I guess that's the traditional duality of male/female, but since it's usually also a traditional duality of light/darkness, yet it has nothing to do with Light and Shadow in WoT, I get distracted by it.

 

Anyway, more to the point, every description we've gotten is that the Bore is through the Pattern to somewhere outside the pattern. (BS addressed this, sort of, in a blog post, and the semi-canonical World of WoT describes it this way, too.) The thing that I don't get, though, is if the DO wants to break the Wheel and destroy the Pattern, why did the Shadow stop using balefire in the War of Power? The whole problem was that reality itself might unravel... but if that's what the DO wants... huh?

 

I don't think the DO really wants annihilation of everything, leaving nothingness behind. I think he wants control, and power, and all the things that the people who turn to the Dark tend to want. He'll remake it all in his own image, perhaps obliterating what came before, but that would still leave enough of the old reality behind that it would just look kind of like the Shadow-controlled territories during the Wheel of Power. Breaking the Wheel and strangling the serpent and all that are just figures of speech.

 

The other thing that I don't get is why Shayol Ghul and the Collam Daan are not the same place. The Bore was drilled at the Collam Daan. You can feel the Bore only at Shayol Ghul. So the Bore was drilled in a place where you can't feel the Bore. Huh?

[Jon Paul]

I am not contending that this is Christian teaching.

 

Thank you. That's essentially all I wanted from you. If you wish to carry on this discussion then by all means take it to Debate and Discussion sub-forum.

[funsize]

If that's all you wanted from me why did you bother replying? I said as much in an earlier post.

[Vicious Circle]

Actually, Kelandon, the Do asked Demandred in LoC if he was willing to use balefire in the Do's service. It is stated that upon seeing the after effects of strong balefire on the Pattern, channelers on both sides just stopped using it from fear of reality coming undone, not because the DO told his followers to. It would, in my opinion, have pleased the DO for the War of Power to have been more destructive to the Pattern.

 

And funsize, I didn't understand a word you said.

[Kelandon]

the Do asked Demandred in LoC if he was willing to use balefire in the Do's service. It is stated that upon seeing the after effects of strong balefire on the Pattern, channelers on both sides just stopped using it from fear of reality coming undone, not because the DO told his followers to. It would, in my opinion, have pleased the DO for the War of Power to have been more destructive to the Pattern.

Hmm. It is true that the DO asked Demandred if he'd be willing. It is true that we're told that channelers stopped without instructions from the DO. But I'd expect that the Shadow during the War of Power had a fair amount of contact with the DO, at least as much as they do now. If the DO really wanted them to keep using balefire, don't you think he would've told them so?

 

That seems to imply that the DO is more nihilistic now than he was then. Creepy.

[Suttree]

the Do asked Demandred in LoC if he was willing to use balefire in the Do's service. It is stated that upon seeing the after effects of strong balefire on the Pattern, channelers on both sides just stopped using it from fear of reality coming undone, not because the DO told his followers to. It would, in my opinion, have pleased the DO for the War of Power to have been more destructive to the Pattern.

Hmm. It is true that the DO asked Demandred if he'd be willing. It is true that we're told that channelers stopped without instructions from the DO. But I'd expect that the Shadow during the War of Power had a fair amount of contact with the DO, at least as much as they do now. If the DO really wanted them to keep using balefire, don't you think he would've told them so?

 

That seems to imply that the DO is more nihilistic now than he was then. Creepy.

 

The Demandred using balefire theory partially comes from people noticing a similarity between "balescreams" when Rand attacked Natrims Barrow and the ripples that effected Faile and Perrin in earlier books.

[Tyzack]

 

The other thing that I don't get is why Shayol Ghul and the Collam Daan are not the same place. The Bore was drilled at the Collam Daan. You can feel the Bore only at Shayol Ghul. So the Bore was drilled in a place where you can't feel the Bore. Huh?

 

I have always assumed that Shayol Ghul is Collam Daan, though why the Pattern would be weaker in place than another is another question.

 

The DO has no other motivation than to balance out the act of creation by the Creator, and the Creator has no motivation other than to balance out the act of destruction by the Dark One, which also explains why the Creator does not take an active role in the "world" because he has already done his part, and is waiting for the DO to destroy the Pattern before becoming active again.

 

Of the Foresaken, on Ishmael truely understands this end game. The reason, I would guess, as to why both sides stopped using Balefire is because the leaders of both sides wanted the world to still exist after the war was over, and the continued use of Balefire would threaten that.

[Suttree]

I have always assumed that Shayol Ghul is Collam Daan, though why the Pattern would be weaker in place than another is another question.

 

We are told in the LoC prologue that in the AoL, Sahyol Gul was an island favored by those who enjoyed the rustic life. The bore was drilled to there as this was where the barrier between the real world and the DO's prison was thinnest.

[Mr Ares]

the Do asked Demandred in LoC if he was willing to use balefire in the Do's service. It is stated that upon seeing the after effects of strong balefire on the Pattern, channelers on both sides just stopped using it from fear of reality coming undone, not because the DO told his followers to. It would, in my opinion, have pleased the DO for the War of Power to have been more destructive to the Pattern.

Hmm. It is true that the DO asked Demandred if he'd be willing. It is true that we're told that channelers stopped without instructions from the DO. But I'd expect that the Shadow during the War of Power had a fair amount of contact with the DO, at least as much as they do now. If the DO really wanted them to keep using balefire, don't you think he would've told them so?

 

That seems to imply that the DO is more nihilistic now than he was then. Creepy.

I'd say amore likely explanation is that Shai'tan's followers are more willing to go along with small scale balefire usage (i.e. just Demandred) than they would be widespread usage. In the Third Age, there is also less risk of escalation - in the AoL if Demandred uses it, then others might start using it against Demandred, and then others start using it, and so on. At this point in the series, Rand not only knows how to use balefire, he is also not shy in using it. Most of the Asha'man don't know. Ordering just Demandred is a different prospect to ordering all of your followers (likely millions of channelers at the time).