one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Jonn]

"Whatever the Dark One wants, I oppose, so hear this and know it true. Before I let the Dark One have you, I will destroy you myself." -Moiraine Damodred, Aes Sedai, from 'The Eye of the World'

 

You think a woman who makes that kind of statement would allow one of the Forsaken to stay near Rand? Whatever she may have wrote to Rand, this woman would never allow it to stand. Whether Rand needed a teacher or not, Moiraine would never comply with such an arrangement.

 

Natael was the same person he always was, a man who killed his own mother and thought himself justified. He even had us readers seduced into thinking he would serve Rand well. A Forsaken!

 

I think one of the major problems people face when they look at Asmodean's murder is that they begin to see him as a victim. Just as he would want the characters in the books to forget who he really is, he would have us forget. HE would even forget.

 

This guy was a turncoat who got exactly what he deserved and maybe not enough for the sins he commited. Asmodean had already convinced himself that serving Rand was as good a place to be in life as any when just a few weeks before, he was determined to kill the man and imprison the world with the power of the Choedan Kal. No, pity him. He is a victim of circumstance.

Psychologically it fits that a villain would commit the murder of a victim.

Let's just back up a second. This guy IS a murderer and a villain. Who is to say that he did not get justice instead. If the tide turns and it's Rand hanging on that ledge with just a tuft grass holding him from oblivion, think that Asmodean would help him up?

People look at Moiraine as a hero with virtue and dignity. The role of an assassin does not let some people fit her into that image. That's the reason why you have to see that Asmodean wasn't a victim at all. He was an enemy of the Light and he was dispatched by a Champion of the Light. A Champion whose reach seemingly extends beyond death. Judging by the quote from The Eye of the World, I hardly doubt she would let even death stop her from fighting the Dark One in whatever way she could. It's one of the major reasons that I think she did find a way as she is indeed, alive.

[Red States Rule!]

Jeez, I thought threads were locked after a certain number of posts.....

[rd2000]

John, I enjoy the debate and picking apart of ideas as much as anyone. You just come across to me as someone who likes to argue, believes that the best way to win is by making observers think your opponent is somehow mentally deficient. Hence the insults. I CAN respect your opinion and the fact that you are intelligent, I have yet to see any indication that you respect anyone with a different oppinion than you have.

 

I am on another forum where anarchy rules. Arguments, death threats, posts copied and sent to employers and law enforcement are commonplace there. I have thick enough skin to take it. I just believe you don't type something on a message board that your not willing to say to their face, lots of keyboard tough guys and super-intellects as it is.

 

All you have done is give Moiraine a motive, which is still very flimsy. I have yet to see a plausible explanation of how she killed Asmo. I am not really in the Graendal camp anymore as motive and history just don't make her a strong enough candidate to me.

 

Someday, I hope to God we get the answer and an explanation. I think most here will be upset at how RJ explains this one.

[Jedimuppet]

I said she's *not* a flake..

J

[Jedimuppet]

Let's everyone be honest here for a minute. I will admit that I often try to squash Graendal theories as hard as I possibly can. I can be rude about it' date=' unbending, abrupt, condescending, you name it. I don't like responding that way, but it often is the only way to actually make a point on this site.

 

I, and probably others, have gotten this way because people who think Moiraine did it, are not wanted or welcome on this board. Regardless of what their initial comments are, or how politely they try to make an argument, the response they get is heavily laced with scorn, sarcasm and derision. Everyone who is not pro Graendal gets this treatment, but it is often heaviest against the Moiraine camp. Unfortunately, any non Graendal people who respond in kind are further castigated because of their bad manners.

 

I guess it is time to say farewell.[/quote']

 

You feel that way, because you're only looking at it from your perspective. Moiraine has the highest hurdle to overcome as a likely candidate, because she was held then, and she's held now...that's it. It's not avarice, or hatred, or maliciousness. It's not random Moiraine sniping or anything like that.

 

Plus as someone who supports the Graendal theory, I can honestly say that if you replace Graendal with any name in your previous post, you'll still be accurate. You yourself have assailed my logic as infantile, simply because I think it was Graendal, so I'm not sure where your solid ground to criticize is.

 

There are a few people on this board who step outside of themselves enough to not get emotional and consider all angles, but not many.

 

Plus it seems like you're saying, oh you support Graendal, so I'm going to preemptively castigate you, but that's not the same thing. I support Graendal until I see a better case, but mostly I see people showing off their vocabulary in an effort to make others feel stupid. I'm not falling for it.

 

I could actually accept other candidates, and have been willing to discuss the merits of them. It's frustrating that even when I am doing that, someone comes along and snipes at me for being a mindless Graendal supporter, even though I wasn't talking about Graendal, and then complains that Graendal people are rude. it's maddening.

J

[havoc110]

Jonn,

 

You should seek therapy for your "Moiraine Complex".

[Paradoxic]

I am not really against the idea of Moiraine killing Asmodean. It does make sense for the most part, if you look at her letter in a certain light. I will admit that it does fit her character...

 

What I am against is how she manages to murder Asmodean while being dead at the time. I don't think I can accept the assumptions necessary for Moiraine to be the murderer; they are simply too specific.

[Kadere]

I think the character's have changed a lot since EotW. Now, I know Moiriane would still do anything in her power to keep Rand from the DO, but that quote is way back when she didn't believe Rand could do anything for himself.

 

The problems I have with Moiriane are that a) the letter states that she understands b) I think she would have killed him much earlier if she was going to kill him and c) she was with the Finn. I just don't buy that the motive is really there. If she thought Asmodean (who is virtually powerless) was a threat to Rand, she would have killed him before hand. She KNEW it was Asmodean with Rand, why let him live is she's just going to use a wish from the Finn's (or whatever) to kill him a day after telling Rand she understood?

 

The reason I don't buy the Graendal theory is that I simply can't see Graendal scaring the bejeezus out of Asmodean. Asmodean doesn't scare very easily, even Lanfear had a tough time making him afraid. But he walks in that room and the blood drains from his face. I could CERTAINLY see Lanfear making him afraid, I could even see Moiriane since he thought she was dead. I could see Moridin making him terrified (but only if he could recognize him) and Shadar Haran would make him piss his pants (again if he could recognize him). But then there's no proof any of these characters were even in Caemlyn at the time, or even reborn. But I just don't see Graendal scaring him that badly. She's not that terrifying a Forsaken, sure she'll manipulate you and turn you into her toy, or kill you in some bloody way, but to another Forsaken I don't think she's that bad.

[Jedimuppet]

I think the character's have changed a lot since EotW. Now' date=' I know Moiriane would still do anything in her power to keep Rand from the DO, but that quote is way back when she didn't believe Rand could do anything for himself.

 

The problems I have with Moiriane are that a) the letter states that she understands b) I think she would have killed him much earlier if she was going to kill him and c) she was with the Finn. I just don't buy that the motive is really there. If she thought Asmodean (who is virtually powerless) was a threat to Rand, she would have killed him before hand. She KNEW it was Asmodean with Rand, why let him live is she's just going to use a wish from the Finn's (or whatever) to kill him a day after telling Rand she understood?

 

The reason I don't buy the Graendal theory is that I simply can't see Graendal scaring the bejeezus out of Asmodean. Asmodean doesn't scare very easily, even Lanfear had a tough time making him afraid. But he walks in that room and the blood drains from his face. I could CERTAINLY see Lanfear making him afraid, I could even see Moiriane since he thought she was dead. I could see Moridin making him terrified (but only if he could recognize him) and Shadar Haran would make him piss his pants (again if he could recognize him). But then there's no proof any of these characters were even in Caemlyn at the time, or even reborn. But I just don't see Graendal scaring him that badly. She's not that terrifying a Forsaken, sure she'll manipulate you and turn you into her toy, or kill you in some bloody way, but to another Forsaken I don't think she's that bad.[/quote']

 

She *knows* he needs a teacher, and that he can't face the DO unless he improves. Asmo is a necessary evil at that point in the story... Moiraine would accept that for the time being.

J

[Kadere]

I agree. If she didn't except him, and she wanted to kill him, he would have been dead a long time ago.

[Simple Gleeman]

The reason I don't buy the Graendal theory is that I simply can't see Graendal scaring the bejeezus out of Asmodean. Asmodean doesn't scare very easily' date=' even Lanfear had a tough time making him afraid. But he walks in that room and the blood drains from his face. I could CERTAINLY see Lanfear making him afraid, I could even see Moiriane since he thought she was dead. I could see Moridin making him terrified (but only if he could recognize him) and Shadar Haran would make him piss his pants (again if he could recognize him). But then there's no proof any of these characters were even in Caemlyn at the time, or even reborn. But I just don't see Graendal scaring him that badly. She's not that terrifying a Forsaken, sure she'll manipulate you and turn you into her toy, or kill you in some bloody way, but to another Forsaken I don't think she's that bad.[/quote']

 

I don't know.. Asmodean is pretty cowardly. Remember he goes on about how the other Forsaken will be looking to kill him now to carry favor to the Dark One. I think moreso than anything else he would be afraid of encountering someone that knew him, and he knew that they knew.

[KingNothing]

I admit that I didn't bother to read all 76 pages of discussion... So this might already have been discussed. I'm rather convinced that Asmodeans killer was Isam/Luc cause he has the ability to appear in the real world in a blink of an eye, and begone the next... And Asmodean would probaly know that he is a hired blade and know his purpose for standing in front of him...

If Greandal og another forsaken killed him, they would be risking alot by channeling so close to Rand and the gang...

But your welcome to sack my arguments :D

[Paradoxic]

Slayer is out for a few reasons, chief among them are these two:

 

1) We don't have a reason to think Asmodean would recognize Slayer.

 

2) Slayer's one PoV talks about how the crowning glorying of his assassination career was killing two shielded Aes Sedai who were locked in jail cells (which happened some time after Asmodean's death). Everyone agrees that Killing a Forsaken would rank a bit higher than two Aes Sedai.

 

There's also the entire "we didn't know he could do all this cool stuff by that point in the story, so picking him would not be intuitive.

[Jonn]

John' date=' I enjoy the debate and picking apart of ideas as much as anyone. You just come across to me as someone who likes to argue, believes that the best way to win is by making observers think your opponent is somehow mentally deficient. Hence the insults. I CAN respect your opinion and the fact that you are intelligent, I have yet to see any indication that you respect anyone with a different oppinion than you have.

 

I am on another forum where anarchy rules. Arguments, death threats, posts copied and sent to employers and law enforcement are commonplace there. I have thick enough skin to take it. I just believe you don't type something on a message board that your not willing to say to their face, lots of keyboard tough guys and super-intellects as it is.

 

All you have done is give Moiraine a motive, which is still very flimsy. I have yet to see a plausible explanation of how she killed Asmo. I am not really in the Graendal camp anymore as motive and history just don't make her a strong enough candidate to me.

 

Someday, I hope to God we get the answer and an explanation. I think most here will be upset at how RJ explains this one.[/quote']

 

Haha! A keyboard tough, I am not, I assure you. I take issue though when people suggest that I am unintelligent. I wouldn't suffer that insult in my face either.

Nor do I suggest that I am smarter than anyone else..If you are smarter than me, well, you're going to have to prove it.

No, I don't argue for the sake of arguing. I argue the argument. I think that's a cop out statement right there. Arguing for the sake of arguing...what the heck does that mean? You either argue your point or you sit there and agree. I don't agree, therefore I argue. What's the issue?

 

So let's go over this. I am not being unintelligent. I am not arguing for no reason as I have an obvious purpose...

the only way it seems most of you will be satisfied is if I would agree with you all. I can't say that that's impossible. You just have to be more convincing than using the tactic of telling me I'm out of order.

We all can see that goes nowhere.

[Jonn]

Jonn' date='

 

You should seek therapy for your "Moiraine Complex".[/quote']

 

I know huh. :lol:

 

She is the greatest Aes Sedai of her Age. Not hard to see why I admire her.

[Jonn]

I said she's *not* a flake..

J

 

No you are calling her a flake if she is the killer. I think she is, so to me, you're calling her a flake... :shock: My brain is melting.

[Jedimuppet]

I said she's *not* a flake..

J

 

No you are calling her a flake if she is the killer. I think she is' date=' so to me, you're calling her a flake... :shock: My brain is melting.[/quote']

 

Except that I know she's not the killer *because* she's not a flake.

 

She obviously allowed Asmodean to remain uncovered because she recognized Rand's need for instruction. Why would she rob him of that at the last minute. Especially when she knew there were some high rollers out there gunning for him?

J

[Jonn]

I agree. If she didn't except him' date=' and she wanted to kill him, he would have been dead a long time ago.[/quote']

 

Everything she does or does not do is predicated by the Lanfear encounter. That MUST happen. To kill Asmodean would tip Lanfear off and Asmodean stayed close to Rand the whole time. So if either of those two were tipped off to Moiraine killing Asmodean, things would go wrong.

 

The letter simply says that she knew or suspected of Rand's dealings with the the Forsaken, but she could forgive him that, because she intends to kill them anyway.

 

If you read between the lines of the letter (as you must because she is Aes Sedai) nothing in it says she was complicit to let Rand have a pet Forsaken.

 

The resignation that some of you are reading, is there. It is there though for the fact that she is resigned towards Rand making the decision of accepting Lanfear's offer. It MAY have been the only way, as she put it. She also said she cannot approve. She's still under the Three Oaths, so that is the truth. She cannot approve, but she understands. that is not even close to agreement that it should stay that way. She even warns Rand against him. the reason she didn't outright tell Rand to get rid of him is because she knew Rand would not and really it's a sour thing to add a command or plea in a letter that's supposed to arrive after your death. That's about as annoyingly passive-agressive as you can get.

 

"You will do well." YOU will do well. Subtle message that he should rely on himself.

 

It's all ther ein the letter. You're free to interpret it another way. i just can't see how you can conclude that the letter means she wouldn't kill Asmodean. Not as a surety.

[Jedimuppet]

I agree. If she didn't except him' date=' and she wanted to kill him, he would have been dead a long time ago.[/quote']

 

Everything she does or does not do is predicated by the Lanfear encounter. That MUST happen. To kill Asmodean would tip Lanfear off and Asmodean stayed close to Rand the whole time. So if either of those two were tipped off to Moiraine killing Asmodean, things would go wrong.

 

The letter simply says that she knew or suspected of Rand's dealings with the the Forsaken, but she could forgive him that, because she intends to kill them anyway.

 

If you read between the lines of the letter (as you must because she is Aes Sedai) nothing in it says she was complicit to let Rand have a pet Forsaken.

 

The resignation that some of you are reading, is there. It is there though for the fact that she is resigned towards Rand making the decision of accepting Lanfear's offer. It MAY have been the only way, as she put it. She also said she cannot approve. She's still under the Three Oaths, so that is the truth. She cannot approve, but she understands. that is not even close to agreement that it should stay that way. She even warns Rand against him. the reason she didn't outright tell Rand to get rid of him is because she knew Rand would not and really it's a sour thing to add a command or plea in a letter that's supposed to arrive after your death. That's about as annoyingly passive-agressive as you can get.

 

"You will do well." YOU will do well. Subtle message that he should rely on himself.

 

It's all ther ein the letter. You're free to interpret it another way. i just can't see how you can conclude that the letter means she wouldn't kill Asmodean. Not as a surety.

 

You're as bad as Thom looking daes'daemar (or whatever the game is called) in the letter. She's speaking plainly to the country kid she brough out of his home.

 

Why would killing Asmo tip Lanfear off? Why wouldn't she think it was another forsaken or an accident? He's weak, and in a dangerous situation. There's no reason to believe that Lanfear would jump to the conclusion that Moiraine figured everything out and killed him. Rand would probably be her first guess.

J

[Jonn]

I said she's *not* a flake..

J

 

No you are calling her a flake if she is the killer. I think she is' date=' so to me, you're calling her a flake... :shock: My brain is melting.[/quote']

 

Except that I know she's not the killer *because* she's not a flake.

 

She obviously allowed Asmodean to remain uncovered because she recognized Rand's need for instruction. Why would she rob him of that at the last minute. Especially when she knew there were some high rollers out there gunning for him?

J

 

Rand needed some instruction, but she was also restrained from moving too soon because of Lanfear.

 

Can we stop dancing around that point because I'm kind of tired after mentioning like 8 times...

[Jedimuppet]

I said she's *not* a flake..

J

 

No you are calling her a flake if she is the killer. I think she is' date=' so to me, you're calling her a flake... :shock: My brain is melting.[/quote']

 

Except that I know she's not the killer *because* she's not a flake.

 

She obviously allowed Asmodean to remain uncovered because she recognized Rand's need for instruction. Why would she rob him of that at the last minute. Especially when she knew there were some high rollers out there gunning for him?

J

 

Rand needed some instruction, but she was also restrained from moving too soon because of Lanfear.

 

Can we stop dancing around that point because I'm kind of tired after mentioning like 8 times...

 

Well, I'm tired of correcting you :P

J

[Jonn]

I agree. If she didn't except him' date=' and she wanted to kill him, he would have been dead a long time ago.[/quote']

 

Everything she does or does not do is predicated by the Lanfear encounter. That MUST happen. To kill Asmodean would tip Lanfear off and Asmodean stayed close to Rand the whole time. So if either of those two were tipped off to Moiraine killing Asmodean, things would go wrong.

 

The letter simply says that she knew or suspected of Rand's dealings with the the Forsaken, but she could forgive him that, because she intends to kill them anyway.

 

If you read between the lines of the letter (as you must because she is Aes Sedai) nothing in it says she was complicit to let Rand have a pet Forsaken.

 

The resignation that some of you are reading, is there. It is there though for the fact that she is resigned towards Rand making the decision of accepting Lanfear's offer. It MAY have been the only way, as she put it. She also said she cannot approve. She's still under the Three Oaths, so that is the truth. She cannot approve, but she understands. that is not even close to agreement that it should stay that way. She even warns Rand against him. the reason she didn't outright tell Rand to get rid of him is because she knew Rand would not and really it's a sour thing to add a command or plea in a letter that's supposed to arrive after your death. That's about as annoyingly passive-agressive as you can get.

 

"You will do well." YOU will do well. Subtle message that he should rely on himself.

 

It's all ther ein the letter. You're free to interpret it another way. i just can't see how you can conclude that the letter means she wouldn't kill Asmodean. Not as a surety.

 

You're as bad as Thom looking daes'daemar (or whatever the game is called) in the letter. She's speaking plainly to the country kid she brough out of his home.

 

Why would killing Asmo tip Lanfear off? Why wouldn't she think it was another forsaken or an accident? He's weak, and in a dangerous situation. There's no reason to believe that Lanfear would jump to the conclusion that Moiraine figured everything out and killed him. Rand would probably be her first guess.

J

 

You're contradicting yourself. Rand needs a teacher, so Lanfear would suspect Rand or killing Asmodean? In any case, Asmodean is a chip, a pawn, a hook in Rand that leads to Lanfear. If Lanfear looses that chip she is going to get suspicious. Her guard will be up and things could very well happen very differently than what occured down on the docks.

 

Besides, Asmodean is always near Rand at that point or he is always in plain sight. What opportunity is there to kill Asmodean before?

 

Asmodean got careless. That lead to his death as much as anything. He figured Lanfear was dead. he figured no Forsaken would come near Caemlyn after what had happened there not a few hours before. Rahvin gunned down in his own stronghold? Asmodean figured he was safe, why else would he wander off alone so stupidly? He's stupid now? Guard down when threats are diminished.

 

Asmodean dead and now all the Forsaken wary of one another. How would that be different if Moiraine had done it before CAemlyn? Lanfear would react, and that could not happen.

[Jedimuppet]

I agree. If she didn't except him' date=' and she wanted to kill him, he would have been dead a long time ago.[/quote']

 

Everything she does or does not do is predicated by the Lanfear encounter. That MUST happen. To kill Asmodean would tip Lanfear off and Asmodean stayed close to Rand the whole time. So if either of those two were tipped off to Moiraine killing Asmodean, things would go wrong.

 

The letter simply says that she knew or suspected of Rand's dealings with the the Forsaken, but she could forgive him that, because she intends to kill them anyway.

 

If you read between the lines of the letter (as you must because she is Aes Sedai) nothing in it says she was complicit to let Rand have a pet Forsaken.

 

The resignation that some of you are reading, is there. It is there though for the fact that she is resigned towards Rand making the decision of accepting Lanfear's offer. It MAY have been the only way, as she put it. She also said she cannot approve. She's still under the Three Oaths, so that is the truth. She cannot approve, but she understands. that is not even close to agreement that it should stay that way. She even warns Rand against him. the reason she didn't outright tell Rand to get rid of him is because she knew Rand would not and really it's a sour thing to add a command or plea in a letter that's supposed to arrive after your death. That's about as annoyingly passive-agressive as you can get.

 

"You will do well." YOU will do well. Subtle message that he should rely on himself.

 

It's all ther ein the letter. You're free to interpret it another way. i just can't see how you can conclude that the letter means she wouldn't kill Asmodean. Not as a surety.

 

You're as bad as Thom looking daes'daemar (or whatever the game is called) in the letter. She's speaking plainly to the country kid she brough out of his home.

 

Why would killing Asmo tip Lanfear off? Why wouldn't she think it was another forsaken or an accident? He's weak, and in a dangerous situation. There's no reason to believe that Lanfear would jump to the conclusion that Moiraine figured everything out and killed him. Rand would probably be her first guess.

J

 

You're contradicting yourself. Rand needs a teacher, so Lanfear would suspect Rand or killing Asmodean? In any case, Asmodean is a chip, a pawn, a hook in Rand that leads to Lanfear. If Lanfear looses that chip she is going to get suspicious. Her guard will be up and things could very well happen very differently than what occured down on the docks.

 

Besides, Asmodean is always near Rand at that point or he is always in plain sight. What opportunity is there to kill Asmodean before?

 

Asmodean got careless. That lead to his death as much as anything. He figured Lanfear was dead. he figured no Forsaken would come near Caemlyn after what had happened there not a few hours before. Rahvin gunned down in his own stronghold? Asmodean figured he was safe, why else would he wander off alone so stupidly? He's stupid now? Guard down when threats are diminished.

 

Asmodean dead and now all the Forsaken wary of one another. How would that be different if Moiraine had done it before CAemlyn? Lanfear would react, and that could not happen.

 

I have a feeling she understands how easy it is for Rand to snap. I think she would suspect he just lost it when Asmo got cheeky or something, not that he calculated his death.

J

[KingNothing]

I see the reasons why it should not be Isam/Luc that killed Asmodean, but I don't think either Moraine, Lanfear or graendal killed him...

All of them would probaly use the OP which could be detected, but not if he was killed with the TP, thus morridin could easily have been the killer. Many of you will probaly complain about morridins lack of introduction, but I don't think that's a requirement for being able to kill asmodean! And morridin is probaly Ishamael therefore Asmodean would recognize him. Asmodean also knows that Ishamael was very faithfull and wouldn't disobey the DO's orders, or accept the other forsaken do it, in this case Asmodean... that's my second guess in who the killer is

[rd2000]

I see the reasons why it should not be Isam/Luc that killed Asmodean' date=' but I don't think either Moraine, Lanfear or graendal killed him...

All of them would probaly use the OP which could be detected, but not if he was killed with the TP, thus morridin could easily have been the killer. Many of you will probaly complain about morridins lack of introduction, but I don't think that's a requirement for being able to kill asmodean! And morridin is probaly Ishamael therefore Asmodean would recognize him. Asmodean also knows that Ishamael was very faithfull and wouldn't disobey the DO's orders, or accept the other forsaken do it, in this case Asmodean... that's my second guess in who the killer is[/quote']

 

Part of the argument against Moridin being the killer is that Asmo has never seen Moridin (that we know of in the books) so Asmo therefore would not recognize Moridin. Ishy as Moridin did not appear in the books until after Asmo was killed.

 

Part of the argument FOR Moridin has been the phrase the book used "the words were still in the air when death took him" Moridin means "Death"

 

But anyone who has been following this debate over the years, already knows all this.