one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Paradoxic]

Jonn, you keep saying that it is written in the text that Moiraine knows things about the future. Yes, she does, and no one here is refuting that. What we are denying is how you assume that you know what she learned. You say that because she saw these things in the future she would kill Asmodean to protect Rand. That assumes that what she saw concerned Asmodean. Maybe it didn't?

 

Now, as to how Graendal did it, including all necessary possibilities for each step fo the way.

 

Graendal, Rhavin, Lanfear, and Sammael had a deal: Goad Rand to attack Sammael then jump into the fray and 4-on-1 him! Sammael stays at home waiting for the attack. Lanfear flips out and takes an extended vacation. Rhavin is evidently staying at home and does not expect Rand to jump into his throne room. He is quickly murdered. What about Graendal? Well, if we allow making up what Moiraine learns about the future, I'll generate believable possibilities for what Graendal is up to.

 

Graendal, either acting on information OR just simply curious about where Rhavin is OR wants to check on Rhavin to make sure he's still ready OR impart some amount of "no attack yet" message OR wants to head over so they are in the same place at the same time for when Rand does attack Sammael OR just wants to borrow a cup of flaming sugar heads to Caemlynn.

 

She is either already in the throne room before the attack OR arrives in an empty room and goes to ground after noticing the ongoing (or recently ended) fight OR travels into the city where she learns about the combat OR has some secret place she likes to pop into when she wishes to check on Rhavin and thus travels to that place during/after the attack.

 

She decides to wander around the place (if you can use the letter to Matt for proof that Moiraine is still alive during the murder, I can use the fact that Graendal shows her interest in searching through the battlefields of fallen Forsaken very soon after their deaths as a reason she goes into Caemlynn) to look for treasure OR gather information OR put trolloc bodies in compromising positions OR is actively looking for Asmodean.

 

She is unmasked (as Asmodean, Sammael, and Rhavin enjoy) OR wearing one that is very similar to her normal face (as Moghedian does) OR is using one that she has used very often in the past; one that Asmodean would recognize.

 

She has wandered into the supply closet OR just traveled there (either for the assassination OR because that is her quiet secret point of travel and Rand + Matt being so close together generates some very interesting amount of coincidental chance for Asmodean).

 

She is recognized by Asmodean.

 

She kills Asmodean using inverted weaves (which we do know about) because she does know there was a fight in the palace rather recently and there are certain risks even she won't take.

 

She leaves by Traveling from that spot OR continues rooting around and leaves by Traveling later OR she walks out the front door.

 

That is the "Graendal Dunnit" outline. Graendal's Favorite and myself differ on which points we'd pick, but this accounts for all incidents. This is also much more full of possibilities... more robust... than the one for Moiraine. Occam's Razor says we win because it is sure less convoluted than all the requirements for Moiraine or Lanfear to be the killer... but I'm not seriously using that as any final way of saying I'm right, just a side note is all.

[Jonn]

Jonn' date=' you keep saying that it is written in the text that Moiraine knows things about the future. Yes, she does, and no one here is refuting that. What we are denying is how you assume that you know what she learned. You say that because she saw these things in the future she would kill Asmodean to protect Rand. That assumes that what she saw concerned Asmodean. Maybe it didn't?.[/quote']

 

Character.

I know she would kill Asmodean to protect Rand because that is in her character. it has always been her character from book one. she would rather see any of the three boys die before letting the Forsaken have them. Similar promises are made after Rand is confirmed as the Dragon. She is wary of the Forsaken approaching Rand and offering him things, manipulating him. She is justifiably concerned as we can all read. I am not making that up. It IS in the text. CHARACTER. Now as for my theories on what she may have wished for, I admit, I cannot know for sure until she is rescued what she wished for, but based on her character we can come to some conclusion before she is rescued as to what she may have wished for.

She was severed. I believe that because of Lan's reaction. Also in the books. In her second letter she mentions the possibility of living the rest of her life in captivity. So what does that mean? She wished for her ability to channel to be restored. Otherwise she would have wasted away and died within a year. Not enough time to be rescued. This, we can all come to because it was in the text. There was exposition about it, direct from Moiraine's hand.

 

Her other wishes? Well, she's still alive so she probably made a wish for that end. We have knowledge from Mat's dealings that that is probably a good thing to wish for, your life. So, again, not a stretch to come to that conclusion. Finally, a wish concerning Rand. Her life is dedicated to the cause of helping the Dragon Reborn. You really think she wouldn't ask for something concerning Rand? Character. She would ask to defend Rand. We know that.

 

All of these things I was able to read through the text and they are strong assumptions. I will not say that they are true, because we have much to learn in the coming book, and I do not presume to know what RJ is going to write before he writes it.

 

Asmodean. She may or may not remember the details concerning Asmodean from her trip through the Rings. She remarks in Shadow Rising that what she saw fades away, and you get the sense that she is trying to sort out what to keep and what to toss away from her memories. Later in her letters she remarked that what was important for her to know stayed with her. She may have seen herself kill Asmodean, or maybe she forgot that detail. What we know for certain is that SHE SAW EVERY PATH HER LIFE COULD TAKE. So it is not under the realm of impossibility that she did see herslef kill Asmodean, or even that she HAD to kill Asmodean. All I can truly be certain of is that she would kill Asmodean, because that is in her character. It is also in character for her to hide her intention because of Rand's sensitivities towards people who make decisions for him or counter to what he wants at the time. Character.

[Jedimuppet]

Jonn' date=' you keep saying that it is written in the text that Moiraine knows things about the future. Yes, she does, and no one here is refuting that. What we are denying is how you assume that you know what she learned. You say that because she saw these things in the future she would kill Asmodean to protect Rand. That assumes that what she saw concerned Asmodean. Maybe it didn't?.[/quote']

 

Character.

I know she would kill Asmodean to protect Rand because that is in her character. it has always been her character from book one. she would rather see any of the three boys die before letting the Forsaken have them. Similar promises are made after Rand is confirmed as the Dragon. She is wary of the Forsaken approaching Rand and offering him things, manipulating him. She is justifiably concerned as we can all read. I am not making that up. It IS in the text. CHARACTER. Now as for my theories on what she may have wished for, I admit, I cannot know for sure until she is rescued what she wished for, but based on her character we can come to some conclusion before she is rescued as to what she may have wished for.

She was severed. I believe that because of Lan's reaction. Also in the books. In her second letter she mentions the possibility of living the rest of her life in captivity. So what does that mean? She wished for her ability to channel to be restored. Otherwise she would have wasted away and died within a year. Not enough time to be rescued. This, we can all come to because it was in the text. There was exposition about it, direct from Moiraine's hand.

 

Her other wishes? Well, she's still alive so she probably made a wish for that end. We have knowledge from Mat's dealings that that is probably a good thing to wish for, your life. So, again, not a stretch to come to that conclusion. Finally, a wish concerning Rand. Her life is dedicated to the cause of helping the Dragon Reborn. You really think she wouldn't ask for something concerning Rand? Character. She would ask to defend Rand. We know that.

 

All of these things I was able to read through the text and they are strong assumptions. I will not say that they are true, because we have much to learn in the coming book, and I do not presume to know what RJ is going to write before he writes it.

 

Asmodean. She may or may not remember the details concerning Asmodean from her trip through the Rings. She remarks in Shadow Rising that what she saw fades away, and you get the sense that she is trying to sort out what to keep and what to toss away from her memories. Later in her letters she remarked that what was important for her to know stayed with her. She may have seen herself kill Asmodean, or maybe she forgot that detail. What we know for certain is that SHE SAW EVERY PATH HER LIFE COULD TAKE. So it is not under the realm of impossibility that she did see herslef kill Asmodean, or even that she HAD to kill Asmodean. All I can truly be certain of is that she would kill Asmodean, because that is in her character. It is also in character for her to hide her intention because of Rand's sensitivities towards people who make decisions for him or counter to what he wants at the time. Character.

 

But she had every opportunity to kill him before the scene at the docks, and chose not to. To waste a wish to do what she could've done herself, after she knew her life stretches credibility. I just can't bring myself to buy it.

 

She even indicates in the letter that she doesn't like but understands Rand's decision to keep Asmo as a teacher.

 

She's not so much of a flake that she'll accept something one moment, then go back on it the next.

J

[Simple Gleeman]

But she had every opportunity to kill him before the scene at the docks, and chose not to. To waste a wish to do what she could've done herself, after she knew her life stretches credibility. I just can't bring myself to buy it.

 

She even indicates in the letter that she doesn't like but understands Rand's decision to keep Asmo as a teacher.

 

She's not so much of a flake that she'll accept something one moment, then go back on it the next.

J

She also goes on and on about Rand needing to learn to use saidin in earlier books. Its not everyday that a chained male forsaken drops into your lap from out of the sky. "You will do well." The last words of Moiraine's letter. She also had confidence that Rand would be able to handle Asmodean. We know she eavesdropped on him and 'Natael' and its probably no secret to her just how suspicious Rand is of 'Natael'. Rand is suspicious of everyone by this point.

 

Also I do not know what the general thought is about balefire being the murder weapon - I haven't read more than 20 pages of this 74 page thread - but I have a point to make about it. Someone else made a point about how balefire cannot have been the weapon used because the "word still hung in the air as death took him." line; balefire would have ceased his life before the scream if that were the case.

 

Well.. is it not possible that the balefire beam was extremely small? We know Moiraine said her greatest could only remove a few seconds. Also, if the killer was another Forsaken they'd have wanted to use a very fine line of balefire indeed to leave no evidence and escape detection. Also, is it not possible that the balefire hit Asmodean after the word left his throat? That is to say, is it not possible he actually finished the word but balefire hit him immediately after and disentigrated him a split second before, which would have been while he was still enunciating it?

[Jedimuppet]

But she had every opportunity to kill him before the scene at the docks' date=' and chose not to. To waste a wish to do what she could've done herself, after she knew her life stretches credibility. I just can't bring myself to buy it.

 

She even indicates in the letter that she doesn't like but understands Rand's decision to keep Asmo as a teacher.

 

She's not so much of a flake that she'll accept something one moment, then go back on it the next.

J[/quote']

She also goes on and on about Rand needing to learn to use saidin in earlier books. Its not everyday that a chained male forsaken drops into your lap from out of the sky. "You will do well." The last words of Moiraine's letter. She also had confidence that Rand would be able to handle Asmodean. We know she eavesdropped on him and 'Natael' and its probably no secret to her just how suspicious Rand is of 'Natael'. Rand is suspicious of everyone by this point.

 

Also I do not know what the general thought is about balefire being the murder weapon - I haven't read more than 20 pages of this 74 page thread - but I have a point to make about it. Someone else made a point about how balefire cannot have been the weapon used because the "word still hung in the air as death took him." line; balefire would have ceased his life before the scream if that were the case. Well.. is it not possible that the balefire beam was extremely small? We know Moiraine said hers could only remove a few seconds. Also, if the killer was another Forsaken they'd have wanted to use a very fine line of balefire indeed to leave no evidence and escape detection. Also, is it not possible that the balefire hit Asmodean after the word left his throat? That is to say, is it not possible he actually finished the word but balefire hit him immediately after and disentigrated him a split second before, which would have been while he was still enunciating it?

 

I think it has to have been balefire, else Asmo would have been brought back. The DO doesn't care what you've done; he doesn't have enough tools to not bring them back. Asmo, if his soul survived, would have been brought back mindtrapped, just like cyndane. Also, similar descriptions have been used to indicate balefire in the past. I believe he was BF'd.

J

[Jonn]

 

But she had every opportunity to kill him before the scene at the docks' date=' and chose not to. To waste a wish to do what she could've done herself, after she knew her life stretches credibility. I just can't bring myself to buy it.

 

She even indicates in the letter that she doesn't like but understands Rand's decision to keep Asmo as a teacher.

 

She's not so much of a flake that she'll accept something one moment, then go back on it the next.

J[/quote']

 

You might want to go ahead and read my response which is the first message on page 74 or this thread. I know it's a task, but please, I took a little time to address the issue and I appreciate it if people actually read it as it makes it convenient to not have to answer teh same question 4 times in two pages.

 

We've also gone over her response (about 15 pages ago) in the first letter about how she cannot approve but understands. That statement does IN NO WAY means that she is complicit about letting Rand keep Asmodean as her replacement. It's quite logical guys. I know some of you have a great interest in torpedoing the Moiraine theory, which I can respect if you truly believe in your theory, but please try not to retread questions that have been answered.

If you must, try to counter the answer on the spot instead of brushing it aside, forgetting about it and then going back to it again as if it were never answered in the first place.

It gets a little annoying.

[Jedimuppet]

 

But she had every opportunity to kill him before the scene at the docks' date=' and chose not to. To waste a wish to do what she could've done herself, after she knew her life stretches credibility. I just can't bring myself to buy it.

 

She even indicates in the letter that she doesn't like but understands Rand's decision to keep Asmo as a teacher.

 

She's not so much of a flake that she'll accept something one moment, then go back on it the next.

J[/quote']

 

You might want to go ahead and read my response which is the first message on page 74 or this thread. I know it's a task, but please, I took a little time to address the issue and I appreciate it if people actually read it as it makes it convenient to not have to answer teh same question 4 times in two pages.

 

We've also gone over her response (about 15 pages ago) in the first letter about how she cannot approve but understands. That statement does IN NO WAY means that she is complicit about letting Rand keep Asmodean as her replacement. It's quite logical guys. I know some of you have a great interest in torpedoing the Moiraine theory, which I can respect if you truly believe in your theory, but please try not to retread questions that have been answered.

If you must, try to counter the answer on the spot instead of brushing it aside, forgetting about it and then going back to it again as if it were never answered in the first place.

It gets a little annoying.

 

That's not fair, Jonn. Just because some of us may have let it go because we didn't think we could convince you, doesn't mean we bought it, then, or now.

J

[Simple Gleeman]

There is an RJ quote explaining why he cannot retrieve balefired souls. He actually explains that there is a window of opportunity for the Dark One to catch a dead person's soul. Because balefire kills them in the past, it effectively narrows or completely eliminates that window. No time frame is mentioned. On a side note, its interesting though how the quote proves the Dark One is constrained by time, though he is apart from the pattern itself - apart from the weaving of reality over time.

 

So.. knowing this we'd have to assume one of three things.

1) The Dark One couldn't secure Asmodean's soul because balefire completely shut the window or for some other possible reason (like he just didn't notice Asmodean's soul in time, drifting torwards oblivion among all the others)

2) The Dark One didn't secure Asmodean's soul; we know he doesn't think like human beings, maybe he doesn't feel the need to punish Asmodean.

3) The Dark One did indeed capture Asmodean's soul and mindtrap him without our knowledge or perhaps he is able to keep Asmodean's soul in a state of limbo, without a body.

 

I agree that balefire is the likely weapon, but I don't necessarily think the Dark One would care about Asmodean so long as he was dead. I assume the Dark One doesn't have a senseless need for revenge, for instance. I think if he were going to torture Asmodean, it would be to make an example, and thus the other Forsaken would have knowledge of it. Perhaps they do and just don't relate it.

 

If the Dark One wants to capture Asmodean's soul and we assume that we would know about the capture of Asmodean's soul then we must also assume that the balefire used to kill him was powerful enough to prevent the Dark One from doing so.. and that in turn leads to the problem of detecting balefire. We know the residue of balefire can be detected, apart from sensing saidin or saidar because that is how Moiraine knows how Rand killed the darkhounds in Rhuidean.

[Jedimuppet]

There is an RJ quote explaining why he cannot retrieve balefired souls. He actually explains that there is a window of opportunity for the Dark One to catch a dead person's soul. Because balefire kills them in the past' date=' it effectively narrows or completely eliminates that window. No time frame is mentioned. On a side note, its interesting though how the quote proves the Dark One is constrained by time, though he is apart from the pattern itself - apart from the weaving of reality over time.

 

So.. knowing this we'd have to assume one of three things.

1) The Dark One couldn't secure Asmodean's soul because balefire completely shut the window or for some other possible reason (like he just didn't notice Asmodean's soul in time, drifting torwards oblivion among all the others)

2) The Dark One didn't secure Asmodean's soul; we know he doesn't think like human beings, maybe he doesn't feel the need to punish Asmodean.

3) The Dark One did indeed capture Asmodean's soul and mindtrap him without our knowledge or perhaps he is able to keep Asmodean's soul in a state of limbo, without a body.

 

I agree that balefire is the likely weapon, but I don't necessarily think the Dark One would care about Asmodean so long as he was dead. I assume the Dark One doesn't have a senseless need for revenge, for instance. I think if he were going to torture Asmodean, it would be to make an example, and thus the other Forsaken would have knowledge of it. Perhaps they do and just don't relate it.

 

If the Dark One wants to capture Asmodean's soul and we assume that we would know about the capture of Asmodean's soul then we must also assume that the balefire used to kill him was powerful enough to prevent the Dark One from doing so.. and that in turn leads to the problem of detecting balefire. We know the residue of balefire can be detected, apart from sensing [i']saidin[/i] or saidar because that is how Moiraine knows how Rand killed the darkhounds in Rhuidean.

 

it's been mentioned that the DO feels a lack of human tools, so he's wasting none. He'll punish them if he wants, but he'll continue to use every resource he has. He would not have let Asmo go if he could help it.

J

[Jonn]

 

But she had every opportunity to kill him before the scene at the docks' date=' and chose not to. To waste a wish to do what she could've done herself, after she knew her life stretches credibility. I just can't bring myself to buy it.

 

She even indicates in the letter that she doesn't like but understands Rand's decision to keep Asmo as a teacher.

 

She's not so much of a flake that she'll accept something one moment, then go back on it the next.

J[/quote']

 

You might want to go ahead and read my response which is the first message on page 74 or this thread. I know it's a task, but please, I took a little time to address the issue and I appreciate it if people actually read it as it makes it convenient to not have to answer teh same question 4 times in two pages.

 

We've also gone over her response (about 15 pages ago) in the first letter about how she cannot approve but understands. That statement does IN NO WAY means that she is complicit about letting Rand keep Asmodean as her replacement. It's quite logical guys. I know some of you have a great interest in torpedoing the Moiraine theory, which I can respect if you truly believe in your theory, but please try not to retread questions that have been answered.

If you must, try to counter the answer on the spot instead of brushing it aside, forgetting about it and then going back to it again as if it were never answered in the first place.

It gets a little annoying.

 

That's not fair, Jonn. Just because some of us may have let it go because we didn't think we could convince you, doesn't mean we bought it, then, or now.

J

 

You're calling her a flake! A flake? She risked everything to get where she could fid the Dragon. She went about it with full commitment, sacrificing much and making the hardest decisions a person could in that world. She cannot lie, but she can misdirect, mislead without saying one untruth. How conveniently we forget that when it suits us to, no?

 

So, she misleads Rand in a letter to believe she is dead, and you cannot see that she would also let him believe she understands his choice and then turn around and kill Asmodean? Instead you call her a flake? Unbelievable.

 

You're ignoring very strong traits RJ puts into her character all in an attempt to discredit a theory about Asmodean's murder. That's pretty self-serving if I can be a little cynical in turn.

 

I can be convinced if you're making sense and if you are compelling. Character, narrative, and logic are important to revealing the killer. Try to address all of these points with Graendal fitting in, and maybe you can sway me. As is, you are correct. Trying to bash my head in woth the same retreads and tired tactics I'vs seen for years now, is not going to convince me. Just like the Graendal theory, it's become stale and really trying on patience levels.

 

If you don't buy what I'm saying, disprove it. If you can't disprove it, then don't knock it 5 pages later. That's all I'm asking.

[Simple Gleeman]

You might want to go ahead and read my response which is the first message on page 74 or this thread. I know it's a task, but please, I took a little time to address the issue and I appreciate it if people actually read it as it makes it convenient to not have to answer teh same question 4 times in two pages.

 

We've also gone over her response (about 15 pages ago) in the first letter about how she cannot approve but understands. That statement does IN NO WAY means that she is complicit about letting Rand keep Asmodean as her replacement. It's quite logical guys. I know some of you have a great interest in torpedoing the Moiraine theory, which I can respect if you truly believe in your theory, but please try not to retread questions that have been answered.

If you must, try to counter the answer on the spot instead of brushing it aside, forgetting about it and then going back to it again as if it were never answered in the first place.

It gets a little annoying.

 

You mistake me. I am not out to "torpedo" the Moiraine theory. I just do not think the logic and reasoning behind the Moiraine theory is as strong as that behind Graendal's. That being said.. the evidence leads me to believe it was Graendal, however, intuitevly I think it was Moiraine.

[Jedimuppet]

You might want to go ahead and read my response which is the first message on page 74 or this thread. I know it's a task' date=' but please, I took a little time to address the issue and I appreciate it if people actually read it as it makes it convenient to not have to answer teh same question 4 times in two pages.

 

We've also gone over her response (about 15 pages ago) in the first letter about how she cannot approve but understands. That statement does IN NO WAY means that she is complicit about letting Rand keep Asmodean as her replacement. It's quite logical guys. I know some of you have a great interest in torpedoing the Moiraine theory, which I can respect if you truly believe in your theory, but please try not to retread questions that have been answered.

If you must, try to counter the answer on the spot instead of brushing it aside, forgetting about it and then going back to it again as if it were never answered in the first place.

It gets a little annoying.[/quote']

 

You mistake me. I am not out to "torpedo" the Moiraine theory. I just do not think the logic and reasoning behind the Moiraine theory is as strong as that behind Graendal's. That being said.. the evidence leads me to believe it was Graendal, however, intuitevly I think it was Moiraine.

 

While I think it was Graendal as well, I could conceivably accept other candidates. I just believe that Moiraine is excluded through information we already have. It's not anything against her because she's not Graendal, it's because I believe ample evidence is in the book suggesting it could not have been her.

 

I don't believe the Finn can snatch you out of this world if you don't go to them, and I don't believe she would willingly go to them. I also believe they rule in their world, and her power would be close to useless there.

J

[rd2000]

We've also gone over her response (about 15 pages ago) in the first letter about how she cannot approve but understands. That statement does IN NO WAY means that she is complicit about letting Rand keep Asmodean as her replacement.

 

I must disagree, taking the whole letter in context, combining that statement with her later statement that she says he will do well does imply complicity and to me states that she is saying "I can guide you no longer"

I like Moiraine very much and she is one of my favorite characters in the series. I never believed she was dead but felt that upon passing through that doorway, was effectively out of the story until she could be re-introduced. Her letter to Thom reinforces this belief. To have her exit stage, kill Asmo offstage, then re enter the story much later just doesn't seem as good storywriting on RJ's part and clashes with my view of the jigsaw puzzle of this story. Kinda like that one piece you have set aside that is weird shaped.

[Jedimuppet]

We've also gone over her response (about 15 pages ago) in the first letter about how she cannot approve but understands. That statement does IN NO WAY means that she is complicit about letting Rand keep Asmodean as her replacement.

 

I must disagree' date=' taking the whole letter in context, combining that statement with her later statement that she says he will do well does imply complicity and to me states that she is saying "I can guide you no longer"

I like Moiraine very much and she is one of my favorite characters in the series. I never believed she was dead but felt that upon passing through that doorway, was effectively out of the story until she could be re-introduced. Her letter to Thom reinforces this belief. To have her exit stage, kill Asmo offstage, then re enter the story much later just doesn't seem as good storywriting on RJ's part and clashes with my view of the jigsaw puzzle of this story. Kinda like that one piece you have set aside that is weird shaped.[/quote']

 

Well said

J

[Jonn]

We've also gone over her response (about 15 pages ago) in the first letter about how she cannot approve but understands. That statement does IN NO WAY means that she is complicit about letting Rand keep Asmodean as her replacement.

 

I must disagree' date=' taking the whole letter in context, combining that statement with her later statement that she says he will do well does imply complicity and to me states that she is saying "I can guide you no longer"

I like Moiraine very much and she is one of my favorite characters in the series. I never believed she was dead but felt that upon passing through that doorway, was effectively out of the story until she could be re-introduced. Her letter to Thom reinforces this belief. To have her exit stage, kill Asmo offstage, then re enter the story much later just doesn't seem as good storywriting on RJ's part and clashes with my view of the jigsaw puzzle of this story. Kinda like that one piece you have set aside that is weird shaped.[/quote']

 

Well said

J

 

Much like Graendal, with weak motive and questionable circumstances, killing Asmodean and never mentioning it again even though she's been on stage for 6 books after the fact? That's good storytelling?

Moiraine's motives and character make it the intuitive choice. No way is she going to let herself be replaced as an advisor to Rand by one of the Forsaken, no matter what she says in the letter.

You can set that piece of the puzzle aside because it doesn't seem to fit, but eventually you know it's going to have to slide into place as the puzzle takes shape.

[rd2000]

Leading up to that, Rand's POV many times was wishing that Moiraine was around to advise him, yet she kept herself distant. Why was that repeated in the story? To me she was weaning him of her so he could start making decisions without her around and she was satisfied with decisions he made.

Belittling our methods of arguing with you does nothing to convice US of your arguments.

[Jonn]

Leading up to that' date=' Rand's POV many times was wishing that Moiraine was around to advise him, yet she kept herself distant. Why was that repeated in the story? To me she was weaning him of her so he could start making decisions without her around and she was satisfied with decisions he made.

Belittling our methods of arguing with you does nothing to convice US of your arguments.[/quote']

 

Oh that makes sense. Wean Rand off of her so that Rand can rely more on Asmodean.

 

Look, Rand was being ababy about Moiraine's guidance in the first place. We see the same struggle today between him and Cadsuane. He wanted Moiraine's advice and guidance when it suited him. At the same time he wanted her to leave him alone and to not manipulate him. Moiraine knew she was going to have to leave him for a time so she naturally was more distant and she had a point to prove to Rand, that he couldn't have it all his way. In a way, she was still guiding him even as she was keeping her distance. But you really think she would teach Rand the lesson of Trust and self-reliance and still leave Asmodean in play for Rand to come to a false reliance on?

 

Make sense of what you suggest before you suggest it.

 

 

Look, to post on here you have to be at least 13, and granted I am sensitive to that fact, but I am not a kid and I am not going to treat someone over the age of 13 with kid gloves. If you can't take criticism (that is surely being thrown at me as well), however many of you think you're on the high ground, then don't bother arguing with me. If I have a point, go ahead and concede it. Otherwise challenge it and don't be a baby about it.

I will try to do the same. If you have a point I may concede. If I think I can challenge it, I will. Nothing personal. That's just what you can expect from me in this debate. Let's roll with it.

[rd2000]

I think I am out of this one. I don't think your here to give valid points and have an intelligent debate.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Let's everyone be honest here for a minute. I will admit that I often try to squash Graendal theories as hard as I possibly can. I can be rude about it, unbending, abrupt, condescending, you name it. I don't like responding that way, but it often is the only way to actually make a point on this site.

 

I, and probably others, have gotten this way because people who think Moiraine did it, are not wanted or welcome on this board. Regardless of what their initial comments are, or how politely they try to make an argument, the response they get is heavily laced with scorn, sarcasm and derision. Everyone who is not pro Graendal gets this treatment, but it is often heaviest against the Moiraine camp. Unfortunately, any non Graendal people who respond in kind are further castigated because of their bad manners.

 

I guess it is time to say farewell.

[havoc110]

At least for my part, I think the people like myself in the "Moiraine didn't do it camp" have a smoking gun screaming Moiraine's non-involvement in the murder.

 

We look at the letter to Rand, and it's like case closed. Moiraine: not guilty.

 

Now for the "Moiraine did it" camp, they do not see it as such (sorry to be painfully obvious). But for the rest of us, this is the closest that the text gives to either

 

a) [character X] did it

 

or

 

b) [character x] didn't do it.

 

Now obviously I am not talking about direct evidence, like Rand's POV. But

in my mind, this is a good as it gets, in terms of evidence put forth by RJ, that Moiraine did not do it.

 

Sure I think Graendal did it, but you could take me off that position much, much easier than to get me to believe that Moiraine did it.

 

I think that this piece of evidence has polarized the WoT-folk posting on this thread, because there is no middle ground on which to look at this letter.

 

I can now see that it can and has been viewed by the "Moiraine did it camp" as the "Moiraine didn't do it camp" piling on them.

 

For my part in this, I apologize. (In fact I was reacting to earlier bashing of the Pro-Graendal faction. Not a very good excuse, just point of fact).

[Logain Ablar]

I'm sure I've missed something extremely obvious, but why is Slayer not a candidate?

[Jonn]

I'm sure I've missed something extremely obvious' date=' but why is Slayer not a candidate?[/quote']

 

Slayer was a decent candidate until the POV that showed that he pretty much wasn't the killer.

 

He gloats over killing two Aes Sedai as one of his crowning glories after the murder of Asmodean. Character says that he would probably gloat more over killing one of the Forsaken. Also there isn't much evidence that Asmodean would recognize Slayer. Again, character.

[Graendals favourite]

It's very difficult to differentiate arguments of different weights in discussions, to me that's one good way of missing the point. Different solution candidates use different evidence, so they cannot be directly compared with each other, trying to put them all onto the same scales. However, when it is no longer possible to approach things with humour, it is time to take a breather.

 

Logain, since you ask it like that, (having posted a lot on the subject), the obvious thing you miss is the murder scene. Slayer could not have killed Asmodean the way the scene went. He had no way of knowing Asmodean was coming, and that he was coming alone. The time frame for the murder does not allow for any hesitation, (and of course then Asmodean would have been able to defend,) but having been surprised, attacking Asmodean would have been suicidal not knowing who was with him.

 

Also, he would not have been there ready to kill anyone who came through the door, as if that were likely, and then that it was Asmodean, no, not the way the paragraph reads.

[Jonn]

At least for my part' date=' I think the people like myself in the "Moiraine didn't do it camp" have a smoking gun screaming Moiraine's non-involvement in the murder.

 

We look at the letter to Rand, and it's like case closed. Moiraine: not guilty.

 

Now for the "Moiraine did it" camp, they do not see it as such (sorry to be painfully obvious). But for the rest of us, this is the closest that the text gives to either

 

a) [character X'] did it

 

or

 

b) [character x] didn't do it.

 

Now obviously I am not talking about direct evidence, like Rand's POV. But

in my mind, this is a good as it gets, in terms of evidence put forth by RJ, that Moiraine did not do it.

 

Sure I think Graendal did it, but you could take me off that position much, much easier than to get me to believe that Moiraine did it.

 

I think that this piece of evidence has polarized the WoT-folk posting on this thread, because there is no middle ground on which to look at this letter.

 

I can now see that it can and has been viewed by the "Moiraine did it camp" as the "Moiraine didn't do it camp" piling on them.

 

For my part in this, I apologize. (In fact I was reacting to earlier bashing of the Pro-Graendal faction. Not a very good excuse, just point of fact).

 

Every time someone brings up the letter, we mention how it never expresses that she wouldn't kill Asmodean. It says that she cannot approve but she understands.

We mention her character and how she would often twist her words away from her true intentions as all Aes Sedai do.

Still, no one really ever challenges that assertion. People end up saying that it's wrong and even without refuting evidence we should forget our justifications.

 

What in that letter says that she would never kill Asmodean, when everything she says concerning the Forsaken up until that point has said she would die to kill them? She would have even Rand die before he join the Forsaken.

 

Look at that letter again. She also says she doesn't see anything beyond the docks, and in the letter to Thom, obviously she does see more. What does that mean? The words an Aes Sedai tells you are laced with hidden meaning. You can never EVER take those words for face value.

 

The only thing that should convince you that Moiraine can be exempt in the form of a letter would be her writing to say: "And, no, I'm not going to kill Asmodean."

 

This is about the 8th time I've had to present this point. Chances are, I'll have to give it again.

[Jonn]

 

For my part in this' date=' I apologize. (In fact I was reacting to earlier bashing of the Pro-Graendal faction. Not a very good excuse, just point of fact).[/quote']

 

That's a new one. Me and Cwset picking on, oh, the 60 people who on this poll think Graendal did it. Poor, poor Graendal theorists.

 

Hey, I'm persistent and that should annoy you if you're trying to prove me wrong. If I have to be a little more agressive to get my point across, that comes with the territory of having to argue the same points over and over again against the same half dozen people who don't seem to remember the last 4 times we went over the points.

 

Seeing as Cwest looks like dropping out of the conversation, you're stuck with me for now.

 

rd2000- Just because you don't think my points are valid doesn't mean thay aren't. You have yet to really disprove them. That's all I care about really, not whether you personally think me unintelligent. Quite frankly, if I may be vain and prideful to boot, I am not unitelligent and that should be obvious.

 

If you drop the drama and actually get down to the points of debate, you are outmatched if not outnumbered. How can I say that? Well, you aren't outnumbered, but you and your associate anti-Moiraine crusaders act as if you are and being bullied by a mob. Also, if your only response to my rebuttals is essentially "You're being mean!" I would rather you not try to debate with me because you're just going to take everything personally and you're generally going to bog the messages down with people being either apologetic or hurt, likely both. Accusations of this and that...A settling. Then it just starts over again.

 

Cynical? Yes. I knew it was going to happen, but hey, I'm still here. I'm still willing to discuss. So, if people are going to pout, whatever. I can take being called names as long as a point is being discussed, but once it becomes an argument about the name calling, that's when I regret participating. Too late...