one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Paradoxic]

Moghedien knows things because she is probably one of the most talented Dreamers to ever live. That's how she survives' date=' by hiding and gathering information. To say that Graendal would know the same things is a logical fallacy. If Graendal knows so much why doesn't Rahvin know or Sammael for that matter, or all of the Forsaken? We obviously find out now that none of those people knew Rand would attack so suddenly and in the wrong place.[/quote']

 

You make the assumption that Moghedian learned what she told Nynaeve through dreaming. What if she had a spy? What if she learned it from someone else? What if that person also told Graendal or... even better... was Graendal? It is speculation, true, but the idea is that if one person knows it then you can't say that it is impossible for other people to know it. Sammael may have known Rhavin was under attack and considered it a diversion tactic by Rand... or just didn't care about Rhavin. Rhavin probably didn't know... so what? Jonn, you suggest that either it is One person or Every person. Why not just Two people? Also, Asmodean doesn't die until a few hours after the fight... maybe Graendal finds out about it between the start and Asmodean's death from methods unrelated to Moghedian's source... maybe she's saying in the city and sees it all happening and, considering the dangers of walking into an active battlefield, waits until the fighting is over? All we know is that Rand's visit to Rhavin is not as much a secret as he wishes it to be.

 

I do not bring up objections against Lanfear/Moiraine in order to draw attention away from the list of issues given for Graendal. I do it to show that NONE of the suspects are without extreme blocks in their way of being the killer. However, between our two choices, notice how Graendal has about five answers to each question while Moiraine has just one possible path to being the killer... and that path is complex and wraught with "what if"s? Why is it that you are fine inventing ways for Lanfear or Moiraine to get out of (and dragged right back into) Finn-land and reasons for either to wish Asmodean dead... yet see some horrible disregard of logic in assuming that Graendal traveled to Caemlynn for each of a half dozen legitemit reasons.

 

Every thing you've said about me regarding Graendal can be said about you regarding Moiraine. I say that you are sweeping aside criticism because you cannot answer without dreaded speculation.

 

I also think it is a horrible logical fallacy to assume that your answer is correct simply on the grounds that it would be more interesting for the story (which, itself, is an assumption on your part). You know what would have been more interesting to the story? If Lanfear had been the one to free Fain. How about if Halima had been captured. Or if Sammael didn't really die. Or if Rand and Egwene actually got it on. Or if Rand and Tam met again after all this time. Or if Taim was Demandred (ooo, there's a popular one). Or if Olver was actually Cain reborn (another popular one). Or any number of other incidents in the books.

 

Furthermore, why does Moiraine killing Asmodean make for something interesting anyway? That is a personal opinion that I just don't agree with... and since it is a personal, and logically baseless, assumption... why does it keep coming up in this debate? I thought we are trying to debate the issue in a way that examines the facts and logically analyze the system. How does second guessing the intent and desires of the author fall into that category? How do personal desires for how you want the books to go and characters to be fall into that category?

 

I do not believe that the story would be any better or worse if the killer was Lanfear or Moiraine or Graendal or Slayer or Matt himself. I think it will make a good story no matter who is the killer. Robert Jordan is writing this book, not us. We do not get to choose what would be the 'coolest' path to take, we simply get to read.

 

If it is Moiraine, fine, oh happy day, kaloo kalay. I'm not so stuck on the idea that it is Graendal that I will burn my books in protest if it isn't. I just think that she's the most logical choice with the fewest strikes against her of all possible sources. Sure, her as the killer doesn't make a good soap opera, but that is completely outside the realm of viable considerations.

 

I am not angry here, but it does annoy me that you, Jonn, seem to focus on Graendal as being a choice that can only be supported by those with a single digit age or double digit IQ. I generally dislike being insulted for doing no more than anyone else in a debate where nothing is clear and everything requires assumptions. I'm not going to cry myself to sleep over this, but I fail to see why the animosity is necessary.

 

Oh, and about that sarcasm there at the end... here's my response: "The tower of what? You mean that big spear of metal way WAY far out from where the murder occurs? The one with no doors, nor any known-to-us way to enter/exit it? The one we've only seen up close in T'A'R? That place where stepping through the barrier into the real world requires you to be in the flesh AND know the specific weave that is known only to the wise women of the Aiel who view it as a horrible crime against nature (or have some innate special ability a la Slayer)? That tower? Oh, yeah, I know about that one... too bad it doesn't have any doors... like the one melted into uselessness by the very act of people going through it... and that we don't even know is *possibly* usable in the flesh until book 11's cryptic note."

[Jeppit Groccin]

I just want to say that no one really knows what wishes pertaining to the shadow will do.

 

The questions pertaining to the shadow can have nasty consequences simply because (I think) of the Dark One's ability to manipulate the world and change a foretold furute.

 

Logically, I can see where someone would follow that same logic to assume that wishes about the shadow would do the same thing. Moiraine being a logical thinker means that she probably would follow that path and stear clear.

 

However, it is entirely possible that making a wish about a particular person (Darkfriend, Forsaken, Dragon, or otherwise) would be well within the bounds of wishing. So, Moiraine could have made a wish to be allowed to kill Asmodean, then been carted off to the Tower of Ghenji to await rescue from Mat and Thom.

 

Also, the rings in Rhuidean might have told her which questions to ask, RJ never did reveal if the rings told Moiraine anything past falling into the ter'angreal.

[Jedimuppet]

Moghedien knows things because she is probably one of the most talented Dreamers to ever live. That's how she survives' date=' by hiding and gathering information. To say that Graendal would know the same things is a logical fallacy. If Graendal knows so much why doesn't Rahvin know or Sammael for that matter, or all of the Forsaken? We obviously find out now that none of those people knew Rand would attack so suddenly and in the wrong place.[/quote']

 

You make the assumption that Moghedian learned what she learned through dreaming. What if she had a spy? What if she learned it from someone else? What if that person also told Graendal or... even better... was Graendal? It is speculation, true, but the idea is that if one person knows it then you can't say that it is impossible for other people to know it. Sammael may have known Rhavin was under attack and considered it a diversion tactic by Rand... or just didn't care about Rhavin. Rhavin probably didn't know... so what? Jonn, you suggest that either it is One person or Every person. Why not Two people? Also, Asmodean doesn't die until a few hours after the fight... maybe Graendal finds out about it between the start and Asmodean's death... maybe she's saying in the city and sees it all happening and, considering the dangers of walking into an active battlefield, waits until the fighting is over?

 

I do not bring up objects against Lanfear/Moiraine in order to draw attention away from the list of issues given for Graendal. I do it to show that NONE of the suspects are without extreme blocks in their way of success. However, between our two choices, notice how Graendal has about five answers to each question while Moiraine has just one possible path to being the killer... and that path is complex and wraught with "what if"s? Why is it that you are fine inventing ways for Lanfear or Moiraine to get out of (and dragged right back into) Finn-land and reasons for either to wish Asmodean dead... yet see some horrible disregard of logic in assuming that Graendal traveled to Caemlynn for one of a half dozen legitamit reasons.

 

Every thing you've said about me regarding Graendal can be said about you regarding Moiraine. I say that you are sweeping aside criticism because you cannot answer without dreaded speculation.

 

I also think it is a horrible logical fallacy to assume that your answer is correct simply on the grounds that it would be more interesting for the story (which, itself, is an assumption on your part). You know what would have been more interesting to the story? If Lanfear had been the one to free Fain. How about if Halima had been captured. Or maybe if Sammael didn't really die. Or maybe if Rand and Egwene actually got it on. Or if Rand and Tam met again after all this time. Or any number of other incidents in the books.

 

Furthermore, why does Moiraine killing Asmodean make for something interesting anyway? That is a personal opinion that I just don't agree with... and since it is a personal, and illogical, assumption... why does it keep coming up in this debate? I thought we are trying to debate the issue in a way that examines the facts and logically analyze the system. How does second guessing the intent and desires of the author fall into that category? How do personal desires for how you want the books to go and characters to be fall into that category?

 

I do not believe that the story would be any better or worse if the killer was Lanfear or Moiraine or Graendal or Slayer or Matt himself. I think it will make a good story no matter who is the killer. Robert Jordan is writing this book, not us. We do not get to choose what would be the 'coolest' path to take, we simply get to read.

 

If it is Moiraine, fine, oh happy day, kaloo kalay. I'm not so stuck on the idea that it is Graendal that I will burn my books in protest if it isn't. I just think that she's the most logical choice with the fewest strikes against her of all possible sources. Sure, her as the killer doesn't make a good soap opera, but that is completely outside the realm of viable considerations.

 

I am not exactly spitting mad here, but it does annoy me, Jonn, that you seem to focus on Graendal as being a choice that can only be supported by those with a single digit age. I generally dislike being insulted for doing no more than anyone else in a debate where nothing is clear and EVERYTHING requires assumptions. I'm not going to cry myself to sleep over this, but I fail to see why the animosity is necessary.

 

Oh, and about that sarcasm there at the end... here's my response: "The tower of what? You mean that big spear of metal way WAY far out from where the murder occurs? The one with no doors? The one we've only seen up close in T'A'R? That place where stepping through the barrier into the real world requires you to be in the flesh AND know the specific weave that is known only to the wise women of the Aiel who view it as a horrible crime against nature (or have some innate special ability a la Slayer)? That tower? Oh, yeah, I know about that one... too bad it doesn't have any doors... like the one melted into uselessness by the very act of people going through it... and that we don't even know is *maybe, possibly* usable in the flesh until book 11's cryptic note."

 

Well wasn't it the Great Hunt that showed us the tower near Shadar Logoth? I always assumed that you could get in somehow...

 

I don't know how that would help Moiraine who was last seen in Tear, kill Asmo in Caemlyn, but there you have it.

J

[Paradoxic]

Well wasn't it the Great Hunt that showed us the tower near Shadar Logoth? I always assumed that you could get in somehow...

 

Actually, I assumed it was without a way in and that's why no one had gone in and looted it... and by 'no one', I mean our good friend the treasure-hunting sea pirate. One of those 'mysterious wonders of ages past' like whitebridge.

[Jedimuppet]

I just want to say that no one really knows what wishes pertaining to the shadow will do.

 

The questions pertaining to the shadow can have nasty consequences simply because (I think) of the Dark One's ability to manipulate the world and change a foretold furute.

 

Logically' date=' I can see where someone would follow that same logic to assume that wishes about the shadow would do the same thing. Moiraine being a logical thinker means that she probably would follow that path and stear clear.

 

However, it is entirely possible that making a wish about a particular person (Darkfriend, Forsaken, Dragon, or otherwise) would be well within the bounds of wishing. So, Moiraine could have made a wish to be allowed to kill Asmodean, then been carted off to the Tower of Ghenji to await rescue from Mat and Thom.

 

Also, the rings in Rhuidean might have told her which questions to ask, RJ never did reveal if the rings told Moiraine anything past falling into the ter'angreal.[/quote']

 

That conveniently dodges the question of how she was carted off...

J

[Jeppit Groccin]

you mean after Asmo was killed?

 

I would think a simple disguise would allow for that, or whatever power the Finns use to gran wishes could allow them to take her back after the deed was done.

[Jedimuppet]

you mean after Asmo was killed?

 

I would think a simple disguise would allow for that' date=' or whatever power the Finns use to gran wishes could allow them to take her back after the deed was done.[/quote']

 

They don't have that power. RJ has said they can't directly affect the outside world. They could deposit you somewhere, but you have to go to them, unless maybe you're right next to a doorway.

J

[havoc110]

This is for the "Moiraine did it crowd":

 

What could Moiraine possibly have asked the Finns for that would have resulted in her being "bamfed" into a service hallway in the Royal Palace, toast Asmo, and get "bamfed" back to Finnland? What could she have said that could have led the Finns to this interpretation? Especially since she has some knowledge of how the Finns make their deals, so we can assume her questions would be specific rather than vague.

 

One of the Jonns (there are 2 of them, right? what gives, are they the same guy, perhaps making multiple accounts so he/they can vote more for Moiraine?) says that Moiraine got additional info regarding Asmo in Finnland... I can see it now...

 

 

Asmo: Rand, I am your father, join me, and we can overthrow Shai'tan and rule Randland forever! Wait...Randland? This world is called Randland??? hmmmm...

 

Rand: (now complete with missing hand)

Noooooooooooooooooooooooo!

 

Get over yourself/selves. You claim that Graendal is a bit player. Well she is a high roller compared to Asmo. He's got no alliance, no big scheme to become Nae'blis, just him and a couple of DF's riding out of the Waste. He only had that 1 POV, and if not for the nature of his untimely demise and its subsequent mystery, he would have faded away into complete and utter insignificance.

 

Asmo is as small potatoes as it gets, at least where the Forsaken are concerned. If what has been surmised that no one but Lanfear among the Forsaken knew of the shield, then the Forsaken show him no respect even at full strength. There was/is no secret info to be had in Finnland.

 

Moiraine knows the future (to a degree). She knows who Asmo is. She, like, everybody else, is NOT concerned about him. (Well she expresses some slight concern). She wrote the letter to Rand that explains both of these things.

 

Ergo, she did not kill Asmo.

 

I believe Graendal did it. I only believe this thru elimination of all other viable suspects, not because of direct evidence to support her as the killer. Certainly not enough evidence to meet the "reasonable doubt" criteria.

 

Motive for the killing is perplexing. It is pretty clear that Asmo is not standing between any other Forsaken and the Nae'blis title. It is also pretty clear that there is not enough "team spirit" amongst the Forsaken to hunt him down (you know, "Go Dark!"). But it is this team spirit concept that fits most, and is mentioned by the victim himself. The "see the traitor, kill the traitor" motive. Similar to my choice of suspect, I favor this motive after eliminating the other possible motives.

 

For the record, I posess neither a single digit age nor a single digit IQ.

[Guest cwestervelt]

you mean after Asmo was killed?

 

I would think a simple disguise would allow for that' date=' or whatever power the Finns use to gran wishes could allow them to take her back after the deed was done.[/quote']

 

They don't have that power. RJ has said they can't directly affect the outside world. They could deposit you somewhere, but you have to go to them, unless maybe you're right next to a doorway.

J

 

When the Finn's returned Mat, he was placed in a specific spot, in a specifiy manner. They did not just toss him out of the door. They do have the ability to place a person they are dealing with where they choose. If they can do that, why shouldn't they be able to reclaim that person from that location if they are not done with him. The one does not imply or require anymore direct effect on the outside world than the other.

 

Part of what he said was if you wished to be king, they might deposite you on an uninhabited world, making you king be default, or they might give you the ability and resources to make yourself king but leave it up to you to act. By placing a person in an uninhabited world, the Finn's are directly affecting that world by changing it from uninhabited to habited. RJ's quote is ambiguous concerning the Finn's having a direct result on the world, but it does not say they can't pull you back if they aren't done with you.

[Jedimuppet]

you mean after Asmo was killed?

 

I would think a simple disguise would allow for that' date=' or whatever power the Finns use to gran wishes could allow them to take her back after the deed was done.[/quote']

 

They don't have that power. RJ has said they can't directly affect the outside world. They could deposit you somewhere, but you have to go to them, unless maybe you're right next to a doorway.

J

 

When the Finn's returned Mat, he was placed in a specific spot, in a specifiy manner. They did not just toss him out of the door. They do have the ability to place a person they are dealing with where they choose. If they can do that, why shouldn't they be able to reclaim that person from that location if they are not done with him. The one does not imply or require anymore direct effect on the outside world than the other.

 

Part of what he said was if you wished to be king, they might deposite you on an uninhabited world, making you king be default, or they might give you the ability and resources to make yourself king but leave it up to you to act. By placing a person in an uninhabited world, the Finn's are directly affecting that world by changing it from uninhabited to habited. RJ's quote is ambiguous concerning the Finn's having a direct result on the world, but it does not say they can't pull you back if they aren't done with you.

 

He wasn't just deposited, he was hanged, and it was only a few feet from a doorway.

 

There is absolutely no reason to believe they could take you back, and every reason not to, given what RJ said. Mat himself believes they left their world for a little bit to hang him in the tree.

 

I think they had to leave for a little bit to literally hang him in the tree, as his own POV suggests he believes. Because he started in their world, it's plausible to believe they could expel him, but given RJ's comments on their inability to affect our world, it seems they would be powerless to take you back.

 

I'm not sure how else to take the powerless to affect the world comment...

J

[Jonn]

Think Tel'aran'rhiod, Slayer and Birgitte.

 

Also consider the testing terangreal in the White Tower. You are in the midst of one reality, yet a doorway appears to take you to the next, and eventually back where you came from.

 

Thus is the agreement made...

 

Moiraine went through the Rings of Rhuidean. She would know that there were certain things that had to happen for her mission to be complete.

 

One of the things seems apparent. The Finns try to take more from you than you would ask in exchange. Mat asked to return from their realm and he was nearly killed. Blind luck that Rand came out of the columns at the right time to cut Mat down from the Tree of Life (ironic that). Would Moiraine be as fortunate, not being taveren? To ask for freedom apparently means your life will probably be the price. To ask for both your life and freedom would be wise, but no doubt some other price would be exacted. Still, that would only give you one wish in truth. In any case, Moiraine needed the second wish for some reason. I cannot really say what for, other than to guess. That would probably be to restore her Power, because she was apparently severed in the fight with Lanfear, thus explaining Lan's remarks that 'she's gone.'

 

You see, it's all there, in the books. We know that there are three wishes. We know that severing causes the warder bond to break. We know Moiraine is alive. We know her motivations, what she could and couldn't know. She vowed to keep Rand away from the Forsakens' sway. That's three things that needed to be addressed.

 

As for going into the realm of the Finns and coming out, only to go back...You could very well wonder why she is being held even if she didn't wish to eliminate Asmodean. A lot of people discounted Moiraine because of that scenario. to paraphrase [why would she just sit in there if she had three wishes to make? She must be dead.] Indeed.

 

Everything we know about Moiraine says that she would not just sit there. She would take her chances and make her choices carefully, all to clear Rand's path to his destiny. She would not just sit there waiting like a damsel in distress for Thom or anyone to rescue her, while she did nothing to effect events. She would have used her wishes.

 

Now everything up until the KOD reveal that she still lives, depended on her appearing to be dead. The mains involved, Thom and Mat, had to accomplish certain things before they go off and risk their lives to retieve her. Mat especially, had much to do, attend to and accomplish. The timing was crucial. Ostensibly, it must be that this rescue is part of these people's destiny. It must happen, else something will go wrong in the Pattern. This is probably another reason why Moiraine had to make such a deal in which she remains captive. She had to stay alive and intact, and in her letter she mentions a possibility that she lived the rest of her life in captivity. Could that be the price she agreed to?

 

We shall see. Truly, we shall.

[Jonn]

you mean after Asmo was killed?

 

I would think a simple disguise would allow for that' date=' or whatever power the Finns use to gran wishes could allow them to take her back after the deed was done.[/quote']

 

They don't have that power. RJ has said they can't directly affect the outside world. They could deposit you somewhere, but you have to go to them, unless maybe you're right next to a doorway.

J

 

When the Finn's returned Mat, he was placed in a specific spot, in a specifiy manner. They did not just toss him out of the door. They do have the ability to place a person they are dealing with where they choose. If they can do that, why shouldn't they be able to reclaim that person from that location if they are not done with him. The one does not imply or require anymore direct effect on the outside world than the other.

 

Part of what he said was if you wished to be king, they might deposite you on an uninhabited world, making you king be default, or they might give you the ability and resources to make yourself king but leave it up to you to act. By placing a person in an uninhabited world, the Finn's are directly affecting that world by changing it from uninhabited to habited. RJ's quote is ambiguous concerning the Finn's having a direct result on the world, but it does not say they can't pull you back if they aren't done with you.

 

He wasn't just deposited, he was hanged, and it was only a few feet from a doorway.

 

There is absolutely no reason to believe they could take you back, and every reason not to, given what RJ said. Mat himself believes they left their world for a little bit to hang him in the tree.

 

I think they had to leave for a little bit to literally hang him in the tree, as his own POV suggests he believes. Because he started in their world, it's plausible to believe they could expel him, but given RJ's comments on their inability to affect our world, it seems they would be powerless to take you back.

 

I'm not sure how else to take the powerless to affect the world comment...

J

 

Does that eliminate going back freely of your own accord?

 

The comment about affecting the world is rather a contradiction. Giving gifts to people from that world and setting them loose is essentially affecting the outside world. RJ further muddles the concept by saying that they could drop you off in the midst of an uninhabited world and that would make you king.

 

The hanging of Mat is the biggest problem facing the concept that the Finns cannot touch the real world. Obviously they can.

 

I took RJ's comments to mean that the Finns cannot simply alter the reality of things just to suit what one person wants. If you wanted to be King of Andor, you wouldn't leave their realm and all of a sudden it would be as if you were always King and everyone would treat you as such that you had been King all along. They would give you the means to become King, and you would have to do most of the work. They don't just give you what you want. They give you something relative to what you want. Mat asked to be free from Aes Sedai. They gave him the terangreal which stops their direct weaves, but is he rreally free from Aes Sedai? He wanted the gaps in his memory filled up, and they did so, but with other men's memories.

 

All of what they give is going to exact a price. You cannot win with them. Snakes and Foxes. It's best not to play at all, but I got the distinct impression that once you enter their realm, you have to play. If you fail to make a bargain with the Foxfinns, I have a hunch that you'll end up as one of those pale harnesses.

[havoc110]

All well and good except why Moiraine would fail to toast Asmo before taking Lanfear through the gateway.

 

It's not like she's gunshy. She knew who Asmo was, why not pull him aside and toast him, makd Rand believe that he ran off.

 

Moiraine is a great suspect. She has the MO of killing Forsaken. And since that time she has had no POV to disqualify her.

 

But she still didn't do it.

 

If, as you claim, she wanted to protect Rand from Asmo's sway, she would have toasted him before the scene at the docks, no questions asked. ESPECIALLY since she knew about the business about Lanfear and the Gate, and did not know what would happen thereafter.

 

You brush aside Moiraine's foreknowledge, claiming "things changed when she went thru the gate". You claim that she receives this devastating intel on Asmo in Finnland. Pure, unadulterated invention. Then you cast those who support Graendal as simpletons.

 

Spare us.

[Jedimuppet]

All well and good except why Moiraine would fail to toast Asmo before taking Lanfear through the gateway.

 

It's not like she's gunshy. She knew who Asmo was' date=' why not pull him aside and toast him, makd Rand believe that he ran off.

 

Moiraine is a great suspect. She has the MO of killing Forsaken. And since that time she has had no POV to disqualify her.

 

But she still didn't do it.

 

If, as you claim, she wanted to protect Rand from Asmo's sway, she would have toasted him before the scene at the docks, no questions asked. ESPECIALLY since she knew about the business about Lanfear and the Gate, and did not know what would happen thereafter.

 

You brush aside Moiraine's foreknowledge, claiming "things changed when she went thru the gate". You claim that she receives this devastating intel on Asmo in Finnland. Pure, unadulterated invention. Then you cast those who support Graendal as simpletons.

 

Spare us.[/quote']

 

I agree with the notion that Moiraine could've and would've killed asmo if she felt he was a threat. She seemed to approve of Rand having a male teacher, given how much he had to learn before the last battle, and while the risks were high, she apparently thought it was riskier to put an end to it.

 

That kind of about face doesn't seem to be characteristic of Moiraine.

J

[rd2000]

You brush aside Moiraine's foreknowledge' date=' claiming "things changed when she went thru the gate". You claim that she receives this devastating intel on Asmo in Finnland. Pure, unadulterated invention. Then you cast those who support Graendal as simpletons.

 

Spare us.[/quote']

 

While I favor no suspect heavily, I agree that Moirane is one I would never have suspected (and still don't) Her letter to Rand was all the proof I needed to eliminate her. Well put.

[havoc110]

I guess it needs to be said again, but for most people in the Graendal camp, their choice (like mine) is based on the fact that she has the weakest case that can be built AGAINST her being the murderer.

 

It's not like there's some "smoking gun" pointing to Graendal. 'Cause there isn't. I grant that there is plenty of reasonable doubt here.

 

So for someone to take a lesser qualified candidate (at least to my eyes) and present them as a stone-cold-lead-pipe-mortal-lock murderer is just a wee bit presumptuous.

[Graendals favourite]

And some who feel the murder scene dictates a Travel-able female channeller who was free to do what she wished...

[Jonn]

All well and good except why Moiraine would fail to toast Asmo before taking Lanfear through the gateway.

 

It's not like she's gunshy. She knew who Asmo was' date=' why not pull him aside and toast him, makd Rand believe that he ran off.

 

Moiraine is a great suspect. She has the MO of killing Forsaken. And since that time she has had no POV to disqualify her.

 

But she still didn't do it.

 

If, as you claim, she wanted to protect Rand from Asmo's sway, she would have toasted him before the scene at the docks, no questions asked. ESPECIALLY since she knew about the business about Lanfear and the Gate, and did not know what would happen thereafter.

 

You brush aside Moiraine's foreknowledge, claiming "things changed when she went thru the gate". You claim that she receives this devastating intel on Asmo in Finnland. Pure, unadulterated invention. Then you cast those who support Graendal as simpletons.

 

Spare us.[/quote']

 

Ice Asmodean before the docks and ruin her credibility in Rand's eyes? That would be a pip. She wouldn't want Rand to know she was behind it. He felt manipulated enough by her and his trust in her was diminishing as he grew more and more paranoid. You think that Rand would think better of her if she would zap Asmodean against his wishes? Rand was becoming complicit with Asmodean teaching him, and it wasn't as if Asmodean was really teaching him all the secrets he knew. Eventually, Asmodean would turn and Rand wouldn't even notice the knife in his heart.

 

Besides, it isn't invention to come to the conclusion that things have to happen in a certain way as she DID go through those rings in Rhuidean and she DID write about it in her second letter. That is not my invention. It is the author's. Also, she didn't receive this information as a whole in the SnakeFinn doorway. She received forknowledge of events in the Rings of Rhuidean. She spoke about it more than a couple of times folks. I'm not making this up. Scoff as you may, that is irrefutable.

 

This story about how Graendal somehow knows of events and decisions that Rand makes, all without proof, all without any in text reference...If it starts to make you feel like a simpleton, that is none of my doing. All I can do is point out what I see and your feelings about that are your own. Fact remains, there is nothing to substantiate these claims that Graendal had any more knowledge than Rahvin himself, that Rand would be attacking Caemlyn. The reason Moghedien knows and that we know that Moghedien knows is simply because she tells us so, in character, in scene, IN THE TEXT. Nothing of the sort in Graendal's case.

The reason it may seem that Graendal's theory is diminishing is because we are receiving no more information about her possible involvement. We had so little to begin with, and what we do have is so circumstantial it's almost worth laughing at the joke people think RJ's pulling on us.

[havoc110]

It seems that you could conceivably ice Asmo without ruining your credibility.

 

She would simply catch him in an empty corridor and toast him. Asmo is just walking along and then "You? NOOO!"

People would wonder where he had gotten off too, begin to think he had run away. She would admit to nothing, twisting her way around the Oaths as we are accustomed to her doing.

 

Say, isn't that familiar to how you say it was done in the first place.

 

What, is Rand going to come out and say: "did you kill Asmo?" Remember that until he opened the letter, he was unaware that Moiraine knew. You don't see him with any inkling (in his POV) he was murdered, now, do you. And there are still any number of people hanging around that might kill him if they found out, like Mat or Avi, and he isn't throwing around accusations at them. And on the chance that Asmo did run off, he's going to let it all out of the bag by hurling accusations?

 

Rand: Have you seen Natael?

Moir: I saw him yesterday. One minute he was there... The next time I looked, he was gone.

Rand: Hmm... Interesting.

Moir: (smooths skirts) Yes, interesting.

 

Nowhere in my argument did I put forth that Moiraine go up to Rand and say "hey guess what, I found out who your teacher was and toasted him" You, sir, added that part in yourself. That seems to be your stock in trade.

 

 

Somehow you make the case that Moiraine cannot kill Asmo before going thru the gateway, even if the manner of the murder IS EXACTLY AS YOU DESCRIBE.

 

Once again, your statements are completely without merit. No suprise here.

[Guest cwestervelt]

It seems that you could conceivably ice Asmo without ruining your credibility.

 

She would simply catch him in an empty corridor and toast him. Asmo is just walking along and then "You? NOOO!"

People would wonder where he had gotten off too' date=' begin to think he had run away. She would admit to nothing, twisting her way around the Oaths as we are accustomed to her doing.

 

Say, isn't that familiar to how you say it was done in the first place.

 

What, is Rand going to come out and say: "did you kill Asmo?" Remember that until he opened the letter, he was unaware that Moiraine knew. You don't see him with any inkling (in his POV) he was murdered, now, do you. And there are still any number of people hanging around that might kill him if they found out, like Mat or Avi, and he isn't throwing around accusations at them. And on the chance that Asmo did run off, he's going to let it all out of the bag by hurling accusations?

 

Rand: Have you seen Natael?

Moir: I saw him yesterday. One minute he was there... The next time I looked, he was gone.

Rand: Hmm... Interesting.

Moir: (smooths skirts) Yes, interesting.

 

Nowhere in my argument did I put forth that Moiraine go up to Rand and say "hey guess what, I found out who your teacher was and toasted him" You, sir, added that part in yourself. That seems to be your stock in trade.

 

 

Somehow you make the case that Moiraine cannot kill Asmo before going thru the gateway, even if the manner of the murder IS EXACTLY AS YOU DESCRIBE.

 

Once again, your statements are completely without merit. No suprise here.[/quote']

 

Rand: Moiraine, do you know what happened to Natael?

 

She can't just say she saw him and then he was gone as that wouldn't be answering they question. It's a yes or no question and the only answer that isn't a lie would be yes. She had to figure that at some some point and she'd be caught between her promise to help/assist/obey Rand and her oath not to tell a lie and be would have to tell more than just that he was there and gone as that wouldn't satisfy the question.

[Jonn]

It seems that you could conceivably ice Asmo without ruining your credibility.

 

She would simply catch him in an empty corridor and toast him. Asmo is just walking along and then "You? NOOO!"

People would wonder where he had gotten off too' date=' begin to think he had run away. She would admit to nothing, twisting her way around the Oaths as we are accustomed to her doing.

 

Say, isn't that familiar to how you say it was done in the first place.

 

What, is Rand going to come out and say: "did you kill Asmo?" Remember that until he opened the letter, he was unaware that Moiraine knew. You don't see him with any inkling (in his POV) he was murdered, now, do you. And there are still any number of people hanging around that might kill him if they found out, like Mat or Avi, and he isn't throwing around accusations at them. And on the chance that Asmo did run off, he's going to let it all out of the bag by hurling accusations?

 

Rand: Have you seen Natael?

Moir: I saw him yesterday. One minute he was there... The next time I looked, he was gone.

Rand: Hmm... Interesting.

Moir: (smooths skirts) Yes, interesting.

 

Nowhere in my argument did I put forth that Moiraine go up to Rand and say "hey guess what, I found out who your teacher was and toasted him" You, sir, added that part in yourself. That seems to be your stock in trade.

 

 

Somehow you make the case that Moiraine cannot kill Asmo before going thru the gateway, even if the manner of the murder IS EXACTLY AS YOU DESCRIBE.

 

Once again, your statements are completely without merit. No suprise here.[/quote']

 

I never said that that was your suggestion. You're getting a little edgy here, perhaps we can back it up a little and be a little less emotional about things.

What opportunity would Moiraine have to kill Asmodean without tipping off Lanfear or Rand? When Asmodean was not with Rand, he was in plain sight with witnesses. At that point Asmodean was quite aware that the only way he was going to stay alive was to stay near Rand.

 

Moiraine knew the time she must face Lanfear and it had to be precise. Killing Asmodean would alert Lanfear and put her on her guard and that would have been disasterous. Moiraine doesn't set her up on the docks and none of it happens. Lanfear runs free. Who would you rather have loose to take care of later? An oblivious Asmodean (who seemed very surprised btw) or an angry, on guard lanfear in full strength? Please think about it before you come back at me with open insults.

I may not always have merit in your opinion, but I do have feelings, and I tend to follow them from timte to time.

[rd2000]

Let's dig a little deeper.

 

For Moiraine to plan ahead as you suggest, she would have to either believe she or someone defeat Lanfear. But she knew she wouldn't be around afterwards (hence the letters) So Lanfear is out of her way, and she would know she would still be able to deal with Asmodean, while at the same time also knowing that she wouldn't be around to do it,(the letters, remember?) So, she must have had foreknowledge that she could travel from wherever she was going to after her fight with Lanfear, and after coming back to deal with Asmo, also had foreknowledge that she wouldn't be able to stay to chat( once again, the letters) An awful lot of foreknowledge on Moiraine's part if you ask me.

[fader6818]

Not to agree or disagree but...

 

She had the fore knowledge that she would survive. She knew that a rescue attempt would be made, she knew who Jasin was...

 

How, then, is it inconcievable that she had the foreknowledeg of every point you raised discrediting her?

 

Anyway... I still think it was Avihenda. :-)

 

No comment. :-)

[rd2000]

You are limited to three questions and answers, how complex those questions and answers can be is up to debate. But from what other's in the story have gotten, and we know one of her answers has to do with the face of the man she will marry, I don't think she has that much leeway for that much foreknowledge from the questions she asked.

[Guest cwestervelt]

You are limited to three questions and answers' date=' how complex those questions and answers can be is up to debate. But from what other's in the story have gotten, and we know one of her answers has to do with the face of the man she will marry, I don't think she has that much leeway for that much foreknowledge from the questions she asked.[/quote']

 

I don't have my copy of The Shadow Rising handy to verify, but I recall her making that statement prior to going through the door in the Stone of Tear. Knowing the face of the man she will marry doesn't have anything to do with the questions she would have asked. We actually know very little about what Moiraine's three questions in Tear were. She may have been told she had to go to Rhuidean, but I can't remember for certain. We also know next to nothing about what she was shown in Rhuidean.

 

If you take what we do learn from Moiraine about that experience, and combine it with what we learn from Aviendha, Moiraine wouldn't necessarily have remembered everything she was shown. Some of it would just be a sense that they need to act, or not act, at a specific time without any clear reason why.