one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Guest Egwene]

1000 replies!!!!!!!!!

[Bob T Dwarf]

There are three branches of a logic tree leading out of the confrontation on the docks. Moiraine took the branch that led through the doorway with Lanfear.

 

From that branch there are ( so far as we know from her letter to Thom ) only three further possible outcomes.

 

1. Fewer than Thom, Mat, and one other come to rescue her. Everyone dies.

 

2. More than Thom, Mat and one other come to rescue her. Everyone dies.

 

3. Exactly Thom, Mat and one other come to rescue her. Outcome uncertain. Maybe all die, maybe all live, maybe some of each.

 

The Rings only show what is truly possible. If Asmodean's death were a true possibility for her, it is something she would have to mention.

"Let me help you as much as I can, while I can. Please."

 

...

 

"Do you want an oath not to try manipulating you? I give it." Her voice hardened to crystal. "I even swear to obey you like one of the Maidens - like one of the gai'shain, if you require - but you must - " Taking a deep breath, she began again, more softly. "I ask you, humbly, to allow me to help you."

 

I don't really think that withholding the possibility that her actions could lead to Asmo's death is something her vow, and her need for Rand's trust would allow.

[Guest cwestervelt]

There are three branches of a logic tree leading out of the confrontation on the docks. Moiraine took the branch that led through the doorway with Lanfear.

 

From that branch there are ( so far as we know from her letter to Thom ) only three further possible outcomes.

 

1. Fewer than Thom' date=' Mat, and one other come to rescue her. Everyone dies.

 

2. More than Thom, Mat and one other come to rescue her. Everyone dies.

 

3. Exactly Thom, Mat and one other come to rescue her. Outcome uncertain. Maybe all die, maybe all live, maybe some of each.

 

The Rings only show what is truly possible. If Asmodean's death were a true possibility [i']for her,[/i] it is something she would have to mention.

"Let me help you as much as I can, while I can. Please."

 

...

 

"Do you want an oath not to try manipulating you? I give it." Her voice hardened to crystal. "I even swear to obey you like one of the Maidens - like one of the gai'shain, if you require - but you must - " Taking a deep breath, she began again, more softly. "I ask you, humbly, to allow me to help you."

 

I don't really think that withholding the possibility that her actions could lead to Asmo's death is something her vow, and her need for Rand's trust would allow.

 

Sorry, but no, she doesn't have to mention anything about Asmodean's death. There were 3 possible futures resulting from the docks. If she knew would kill Asmodean, then you would have the lie you seem to be trying to argue. Since she didn't know how the docks would end, she didn't know she would kill Asmodean. Therefore, even if she had been shown anything about it, it wasn't something that she knew would happen and she didn't have to mention it.

 

Moiraine never even knew if any of the letters would be delivered/read, as the first set of three only had 1 possibility where they would. She states that herself. Since, she didn't know which of the 3 initial paths would occur, she didn't know what else would occur. Her rescue by Thom cannot even be the one other thing she knew. That appears dependent on the second letter, which didn't have a guaranteed delivery.

 

Moiraine deliberately let Rand believe she was dead. There's not really a trust issue at that point. By the time of her return, Rand will have been without Asmodean for so long that Rand will have realized he had no longer any need for Asmodean.

Asmodean was never a good teacher to begin with, and with Lanfear's shield he couldn't channel enough to teach anything really powerful. We don't even get any indication that he really taught Rand much beyond the ability to grasp Saidin everytime he tried, and how to invert his weaves. Almost everything else has come from LTT and from duplicating the weaves used to attack Rand. Rand already had the Travalling mostly figured out.

 

Moiraine still considered Asmodean to be the same person he always was. Extrapolating from that it means she saw him as the same threat to Rand as he always was. It wouldn't have caused her any issues to help Rand by eliminating another Foresaken.

[Guest Egwene]

Why is it that on one hand every one insists that Aes Sedai twist their words to suit their purposes, but on the other hand refuse to look past the actual words for such a purpose?

 

Yes, Moiraine would not, indeed could not lie, but there are lots of ways to interpret what she says. Certainly there is nothing in either letter that would exclude the possibility of her being Asmodeans killer.

[Scylvendi]

I've said Moiraine since I read it. I will never change my mind, no matter what anyone else says, including RJ. =^.^=

[Inara]

i hope you are vindicated then, if only beacuse it is a nice little twist

[Guest cwestervelt]

Vindication? I suppose for all the crack brain and nut case comments we Moiraine supporters have had to put up with.

 

Twist? Not at all since to us, it was obvious from the beginning. If it weren't being a little arrogant, I would say that we have RJ's famous "intuitively obvious" quote in our corner. By definitition that means logic isn't required. It is just supposed to be instinct. :D

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=intuitive

Intuitive: spontaneously derived from or prompted by a natural tendency; "an intuitive revulsion" 2: obtained through intuition rather than from reasoning or observation

[Pevin]

Up front I need to say that I have only read about 20 pages of this post, so if I err in ignorance--sorry, but I couldn't wait any longer to chime in.

 

It seems (from the little I have read) that so far the only suspects have been channelers and the only cause of death by channeling. Could it have been a non-channeler? Or a channeler who chose to use a more traditional method of assassination?

 

Asmodean was obviuosly severly handicapped in multiple ways--he was mostly shielded, (apparently) not much of a fighter, and (I suspect) had a false sense of security. And if his "You?" statement was one of surprise (as I think it is reasonable to assume it was), that could have given the assailant the intiative to strike physically before Asmodean could defend himself with his limited channeling.

 

So who did it? I don't have a great answer, but I think it was someone on Rand's side. Someone who Moiraine told about Asmodean. Most likely an Aiel--maybe a Wise One or...Aviendha?? Yeah, that sounds good to me; afterall, she was with Asmodean at the end. She could have stalked ahead of him and done the deed with or without the power.

[Guest Egwene]

lol... well, let's face it... RJ has probably been compulsed by Graendal to support her in her claim to notoriety

 

Edit: typo.. maybe it was her????

[Graendals favourite]

:D , You're right Egwene! Graendal compelled RJ, which explains why the books were written the way they were!

[Guest Egwene]

lol... yeah but this was only after FoH... as she had no other way of being the killer *evil grin*

 

...my post was supposed to be in reply to the last one on the previous page.... *very evil grin*

[Ord]

I assume this has already been posted before but I think it was Moridin. It says death took him. Moridin means death. People argue that Moridin hadn't been introduced yet. But I think that was Moridins introduction.

[Graendals favourite]

Egwene, one must never let little details get into one's way... :P , especially in the way of fun.

 

I can't yet write anything more on the subject, but I've concluded that Melindhra was most certainly Graendal's, the other three don't make sense, and I don't believe in group-spies. Now I'm (very occasionally) looking for evidence of a Finder in Mat's possessions... Mat dying and living again would certainly create interesting effects to the senser of it. The fun continues, and all for a blue dress and rings in Maerone.

[falcon1983]

it was the Aiel maiden that tried to kill Mat

 

Logan

[alCal]

[A bit OT, but: This thread now has 68 pages and 1013 replies!! Light, how do you people manage to continue? :lol: ]

[Guest Estel]

because Eggy pokes all the newbies...

[Inara]

if moridin killed him it would not br 'intuitively obvious' as we know nothing of him

also, i think if that was supposed to be like that it would say 'Death' with a capital as it is a name.

 

another important point, asmo recognises his killer and understands immediatly that they are there to kill him, there is 'how dare you rise above your station...i am chosen!!' blah blah blah

it is someone he fears

[Natael]

Actually I have a feeling that it's Moridin, whom I believe to be Ishamael. That's why he tripped out. That's my quite possibly wrong theory on the issue anyway.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Actually I have a feeling that it's Moridin' date=' whom I believe to be Ishamael. That's why he tripped out. That's my quite possibly wrong theory on the issue anyway.[/quote']

 

The version of Ishamael that Asmodean would recognize died at the end of the Dragon Reborn. The current incarnation of Ishamael, aka Moridin, was neither introdeuced, nor recognizable by Asmodean.

 

Edit: The answer is supposed to be intuitive, or instinctive. Ishamael left a corpse as proof of death. There was nothing to suggest he was ever coming back.

[Natael]

Ah, Point well taken. That had not occurred to me. But then again it is possible that Asmodean could have done some studies in the field of "reincarnation". I know that's a long stretch, and I might add that I don't believe it either, but I'm just acknowledging the slight possibility. Actually you might say that I'm playing Devil's Advocate; I already know my theory was wrong. *shrugs*

[rd2000]

The sad fact is that NO-ONE is intuitively the killer. Hence this topic is 69 (soon to be more) pages in length and very few have changed their opinions on who killed Asmo.

 

The only thing I know is that RJ has a sick sense of humor. The answer to Asmo's death can't be central to the story, and is NOT a RAFO. So, it should have been answered long ago but hasn't because he gets amusement over everyone squirming around over the topic.

[Guest cwestervelt]

When it is finally revealed who killed him, I suspect there will be a lot of head slapping going on. To me, the answer was intuitive.

 

One of the problems that drags the discussion out so much is that people are only interested in a logical solution. This results in a lot of long, complex theories that don't help solve the problem. RJ's famous quote indicates that a logical solution isn't necessary to determine the killer. The fact is, a logical explanation may not even be possible from the information that w have. The implication is that a name should have immediately entered the readers mind the moment they read the scene. For me, that happened, which makes me agree that it is intuitively obvious. Half a dozen re-readings of The Fires of Heaven have never changed that.

[Kadere]

I think everybody has a certain name jump in their head when they first read that part of the book, but I think that the name isn't the same for everybody.

 

I, for instance, immediately thought of Lanfear, but I'm positive that about a billion people thought Graendal. So even if it's "intuitavily obvious" to the person reading, it's not agreed by everyone.

[Jonn]

I think everybody has a certain name jump in their head when they first read that part of the book' date=' but I think that the name isn't the same for everybody.

 

I, for instance, immediately thought of Lanfear, but I'm positive that about a billion people thought Graendal. So even if it's "intuitavily obvious" to the person reading, it's not agreed by everyone.[/quote']

 

I've never heard anyone ever say that they immediately thought it was Graendal. I've heard of people guessing it was one of the Forsaken, but never specifically Graendal.

 

Even the staunchest Graendal theorists I've argued the points with...I never gotten a clear answer that said that Graendal's name immediately popped in their head upon reading the passage. That's one of the big reasons that many people (including myself) cannot be sure about Graendal to begin with. She just does not figure in as "obvious" or even prominent enough in the story at that point for us to give her much of any thoughts on her disposition at that point in the narrative.

[Graendals favourite]

I for one don't remember what I thought then. Maybe I just thought someone, and let it go at that. Certainly I didn't think on it much until a few years ago I noticed the online forums.

 

I'm not entirely sure where I'm going at here, but perhaps with enough indepth reading, Graendal should have been prominent. I guess I wasn't capable that then myself, in high-school I wasn't good enough to read WoT without a dictionary or word-book or whatever it is.

 

Anyway, there is that thing of Melindhra, to be considered. She should be someone's spy, that is clear. Lanfear doesn't really make sense, to kill Mat if Caemlyn is planned, you'd think her real plan would work as well in Caemlyn as Illian. Also, she wasn't aware of what all Maidens 'knew' about Rand and Aviendha. Sammael should not be that interested in getting Rand attack him instead of Rahvin, plan or no plan. And Rahvin doesn't make sense, because he sent Darkhounds to kill Mat at the same time Melindhra was just gotten into Mat's bed, at least according to Lanfear, and that would be some wasted effort then. So it should be clear Melindhra was Graendal's, if it was at that point understood that the Forsaken don't really work as a group, but as people in temporary alliances. So then we have Graendal having a more or less constant eye on matters through Melindhra's nightly reports.