one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Jedimuppet]

Sorry' date=' but on this issue, I haven't speculated a bit.

 

I've reproduced what fader posted. I've done him the courtesy to believe he meant exactly what he said. I've asked that others also extend him that same courtesy. To not reinterpret his words to suit their own preconceptions.

 

Nothing tenuous. No speculation.[/quote']

 

Except that you've changed his meaning to suit your purposes, and then said that the majority of us who were able to see his meaning clearly are somehow being interpretative. It's just batty.

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

Look at who people are proposing as the killer and why.

 

Some propose Moiraine because they didn't want to believe she was dead. They see her letter to Thom in KoD as confirmation that they've been right all along. The details of how ( one of the most important aspects of any killing ) are immaterial to them. SHE'S ALIVE! That's all that counts.

 

Some propose Lanfear. Again, they wouldn't believe her dead. Cyndane is their ultimate proof. They too don't really care about the messy details of how.

 

Some believe the murder could only have been accomplished by a Forsaken. I'm not sure why, a knife through the eye kills you as dead as balefire, and is a lot less likely to be detected. This leads them inevitably to Graendal. Almost entirely because Asmo shivered as he was walking away from the garden thinking about how close he'd come to the ultimate death. If I'd just escaped death by an eyelash, I'd shiver too. So would you. And, nobody would be channeling nearby either.

 

Nobody mentions Sammael. He's the only one of the Forsaken who had said straight out that he wanted to kill Asmo. My guess is nobody can even envision a way for it to have been him.

 

Despite what any of us may "feel" or "believe in our gut", the details we have to work with at the time of the murder, tell us that all the other Forsaken are off the board. Either through having died in messy and unpleasant ways, or through never having been presented onstage yet.

 

Nobody seems willing to consider anyone else. Why?

[Jedimuppet]

Look at who people are proposing as the killer and why.

 

Some propose Moiraine because they didn't want to believe she was dead. They see her letter to Thom in KoD as confirmation that they've been right all along. The details of how ( one of the most important aspects of any killing ) are immaterial to them. SHE'S ALIVE! That's all that counts.

 

Some propose Lanfear. Again' date=' they wouldn't believe her dead. Cyndane is their ultimate proof. They too don't really care about the messy details of how.

 

Some believe the murder could only have been accomplished by a Forsaken. I'm not sure why, a knife through the eye kills you as dead as balefire, and is a lot less likely to be detected. This leads them inevitably to Graendal. Almost entirely because Asmo shivered as he was walking away from the garden thinking about how close he'd come to the ultimate death. If I'd just escaped death by an eyelash, I'd shiver too. So would you. And, nobody would be channeling nearby either.

 

Nobody mentions Sammael. He's the only one of the Forsaken who had said straight out that he wanted to kill Asmo. My guess is nobody can even envision a way for it to have been him.

 

Despite what any of us may "feel" or "believe in our gut", the details we have to work with at the time of the murder, tell us that all the other Forsaken are off the board. Either though having died in messy and unpleasant ways, or through never having been presented onstage yet.

 

Nobody seems willing to consider anyone else. Why?[/quote']

 

See you did it again. YOu went and changed the subject. My hunch is Graendel, but I'm not positive, and I won't call someone's intellect into question for not agreeing with me or following my line of reasoning. That's all I was trying to adress. You were shooting people down, using that post as your holy reference, and it clearly didn't mean what you thought it did.

 

That's the only thing I was trying to point out.

J

[rd2000]

It would have to be someone that Asmo would be terrified of on sight, that's why. "the blood drained from his face". Who would Asmo be terrified of on first sight? Most likely someone who would kill him for switching to Rand's side, and... someone who he knew had the ability to kill him, despite his (much reduced)ability to channel.

 

Also, him saying "NO!" implies he saw that he was about to die. AOL channelers didn't need to move their bodies to channel, Graendal could have just stood there, and killed him. All the while smiling sweetly at him. So something in the other person(s) posture or actions was indicating to Asmo that his end was on him.

[Jedimuppet]

It would have to be someone that Asmo would be terrified of on sight' date=' that's why. "the blood drained from his face". Who would Asmo be terrified of on first sight? Most likely someone who would kill him for switching to Rand's side, and... someone who he knew had the ability to kill him, despite his (much reduced)ability to channel.[/quote']

 

Asmo would be scared of anybody connected with the Shadow. He's said any of them would kill him on sight.

 

That's totally reasonable...plus he'd be surprised to see anyone he knew there.

 

He was also the wimpiest of the forsaken. If it was another forsaken, I dont' think they would have to know he was shielded because they would think they could take him anyway.

J

[havoc110]

3. "RJ's later quotes confirmed that Graendal was not the killer' date=' nor was Lanfear (as she was dead), Ishamael, Rahvin, Be'lal, Shaidar Haran and a few others that it could have been.", is also a clear presentation of fact. Nothing the least bit theoretical about this statement.

[/quote']

 

And how do you differentiate this between fact and opinion, exactly? Your previous posts seem to indicate that it is Fader's position as a board Admin that makes this statement unassailable. (because of our earlier discussion about use of the word "confirmed".)

 

I submit to you that the above statement by Fader, where he states that the elimination of suspects is "confirmed" by RJ is opinion, and opinion only.

 

A lot of people (including myself at times) put forth ideas, that may or may not necessarily be factual, without the use of "I think..." or "I believe..." to qualify them as the speaker's opinion only. It probably has been done dozens of times in this thread alone. It may not be correct usage, but at least in my case, I'm lazy, and omit the correct convention.

 

Don't you think if there was factual evidence, either in the text, or direct words from RJ to that point; that would eliminate Graendal as a suspect completely, that the people of this board would accept it?

I know I would.

[Bob T Dwarf]

rd makes a very good point.

 

None of the Forsaken need to move even an eyelash in order to channel.

 

I think one of two things happened. Either he saw from the other person's actions that he was going to die, or he tried to use some countermeasure and it didn't work. The, "No!", could be taken both ways.

 

Jedi is also correct. Asmo knew that anyone connected with the DO would kill him. It therefore follows, that whomever he saw was someone he recognized instantly.

 

He had been abroad in the land for quite some time. He would recognize any number of people, not just one of the Forsaken.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The only way I know of to differentiate a statement of fact from one of conjecture is through qualifiers.

 

"Now, RJ could be twisting words with this one, but this proves one simple fact to me.

 

#1. Asmodead's killer was NOT on the list of "usual suspects". In my mind, this eliminates ALL of the Forsaken instantly, as they would have the most OBVIOUS reason for killing him."

 

Those are clearly statements of conjecture. Note the " could", and "proves... to me.", and the "In my mind".

 

"RJ's later quotes confirmed that Graendal was not the killer...", is clearly presented as a factual, not conjectural, statement.

[Jedimuppet]

rd makes a very good point.

 

None of the Forsaken need to move even an eyelash in order to channel.

 

I think one of two things happened. Either he saw from the other person's actions that he was going to die' date=' or he tried to use some countermeasure and it didn't work. The, "No!", could be taken both ways.

 

Jedi is also correct. Asmo knew that anyone connected with the DO would kill him. It therefore follows, that whomever he saw was someone he recognized instantly.

 

He had been abroad in the land for quite some time. He would recognize any number of people, not just one of the Forsaken.[/quote']

 

Agreed, but I think only one Forsaken would know what an easy target he is. To someone else he would still be a Forsaken and very powerful, but to a Forsaken he would be easy meat, even without the shield.

 

J

[Jedimuppet]

The only way I know of to differentiate a statement of fact from one of conjecture is through qualifiers.

 

"Now' date=' RJ could be twisting words with this one, but this proves one simple fact to me.

 

#1. Asmodead's killer was NOT on the list of "usual suspects". In my mind, this eliminates ALL of the Forsaken instantly, as they would have the most OBVIOUS reason for killing him."

 

Those are clearly statements of conjecture. Note the " could", and "proves... to me.", and the "In my mind".

 

"RJ's later quotes confirmed that Graendal was not the killer...", is clearly presented as a factual, not conjectural, statement.[/quote']

 

Bob, let it go...RJ never said that...you're refusing to accept the fact that he didn't say it because the poster here didn't use a qualifying statement.

 

People who lie also don't use qualifying statements, but we're not powerless to see through lies are we? I'm not saying anyone is lying, just that that's an extreme example of something being passed off as fact. According to your above post, as long as the liar didn't say I think, or I feel, no one would be capable of piercing the deception.

 

ANyway, it's more fun to talk about Asmodean. Just please debate on your own terms, and don't tell us we couldn't possibly be right because on page five, fader said blah blah blah...It just doesn't make sense.

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

Why does he need to be perceived as an easy target?

 

Why can't he be perceived as a very great danger?

 

Perhaps the killer is Light, and has somehow found out who Jasin Natael really is. Perhaps they're Dark and fear that the traitor will betray them to Rand.

 

As I've said before, I think he met up with a DF he'd known before he went to the Waste. That DF needed, most of all, to preserve their hidden connection to the DO, and killed him to remain anonymous.

 

I go that route only because it seems that if they were Light, they'd go storming into the hallway yelling, "Guess who I just found and killed!"

[Jedimuppet]

Why does he need to be perceived as an easy target?

 

Why can't he be perceived as a very great danger?

 

Perhaps the killer is Light' date=' and has somehow found out who Jasin Natael really is. Perhaps they're Dark and fear that the traitor will betray them to Rand.

 

As I've said before, I think he met up with a DF he'd known before he went to the Waste. That DF needed, most of all, to preserve their hidden connection to the DO, and killed him to remain anonymous.

 

I go that route only because it seems that if they were Light, they'd go storming into the hallway yelling, "Guess who I just found and killed!"[/quote']

 

Except the attacker has to believe they have a chance of surviving.

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

If you think you're dead either way, wouldn't you want to take your killer with you? Would you just be a deer in the headlights?

[SinisterDeath]

Nobody mentions Sammael. He's the only one of the Forsaken who had said straight out that he wanted to kill Asmo. My guess is nobody can even envision a way for it to have been him.

 

Heh, this comeing from the guy who has stated that he has read the entire 203472147 pages, and anyone who hasnt should just not post?

Look back a few houndred pages. I have said off and on that one of my main people whom I think killed him was Samuel. However... Through his various Pov's it doesnt seem he Knew of asmodeans death until after the fact... Now unless samuel sleep walks.....

 

We basically know it had to have been a channeler. Even with Asmodeans weak power, he'd have been able to restrain anyone who wasnt a channeler with a simple knife.

It had to have been someone who had reason to kill him.

Someone who knew who he was.

Someone who knew where he was.

Someone who had motive.

 

So we know it has to be a channeler. And really the only people at that time who had motive were darkfriends.

So that puts all black ajah, and forsaken on that list.

Knew where he was?

Samuel most likely did. He knew exactly where rand was, He launched several attacks against rand through out those books while he toke cairhan/andor ect.

Greandal was working for sammuel to. So That also helps out the grendel theory.

Black ajah, while having motive, unless we find out something about the aes sedia in caemlyn that we don't already know. Also the last thing is, Asmodean needs to know who they were.

I don't believe Asmodean had any real connections to the black ajah. Sammuel/semmi/moghideon do I believe.

So really, this leaves the forsaken, or a mystery black ajah member that asmodean knows.

At the time of asmodeans death. Most believed that Moiraine/Lanfear were dead.

Had they not, we would have seen them earlier.

Later we find out that moiraine is trapped in the tower. Thusly she couldnt have done the murder. & if she had, she would have been playing out of character.. Afterall who else to teach rand then someone who knows how? Moiraine could only do so much. It wouldnt also suprise me if she knew who asmodean was.

Lanfear, whom had plenty of motive, we find out was reborn in a new body. If im not mistaken she was actually held captive for several months. I also doubt that Morrodin, whom we didn't know of yet, nor cydane *who amso wouldnt know* would have killed him, much less have the oppurtunity.

 

There have been other remarks besides forsaken. Like Verin for instance..

Speaking of such, who were those black ajah sisters in kod? And where they also in caemlyn when rand toke it?

 

*So, asside from sammeuls pov, it was either him, Grendal, Semi, demandred I believe was ruled out. Or some random black ajah forsaken.*

[SinisterDeath]

Why does he need to be perceived as an easy target?

 

Why can't he be perceived as a very great danger?

 

Perhaps the killer is Light' date=' and has somehow found out who Jasin Natael really is. Perhaps they're Dark and fear that the traitor will betray them to Rand.

 

As I've said before, I think he met up with a DF he'd known before he went to the Waste. That DF needed, most of all, to preserve their hidden connection to the DO, and killed him to remain anonymous.

 

I go that route only because it seems that if they were Light, they'd go storming into the hallway yelling, "Guess who I just found and killed!"[/quote']

 

Bob, your theory is entirely speculation.

[Jedimuppet]

If you think you're dead either way' date=' wouldn't you want to take your killer with you? Would you just be a deer in the headlights?[/quote']

 

All I'm saying is that if it was on purpose, joe schmo DF is not going to want to go up against a Chosen. Also, they're probably not going to know that he's out of favor, either. Also, Joe Schmo is not going to scare Asmo overly...he *can* channel enough to take out a normal person as evidenced by him taking part in the battle for Caemlyn. Another Forsaken would be unimpressed with Asmo's abilities, even if unaware of the shield.

 

J

[havoc110]

Alright, some actual facts...

 

Now, in the last chapter, Rand states his opinion: "he did not think much of Asmo's fighting had been with that blade".

 

This implies (yes, implies) that Asmo could defend himself from physical attacks with the OP. Since he couldn't stop the lighting, nor can he stop the balefire, that is why most people surmise that the attack is OP in nature.

 

Since the killer is on the other side on the other side of the door that Asmo opens, the killer has to be in the palace. This gives us several groups of suspects.

 

1) people who are in the Palace.

 

2) people/creatures who can get in and out of the palace unseen.

 

Bob, you have made a big case about only people who can be proved to be in the Palace could have done it. You limit the suspects only to those in group 1, and even a smaller set of group 1, people who are seen on-camera in the Palace at or around the time of the murder. That give at most Rand's, Nynaeves, and Asmo's POV's which does not give a complete picture of the entire Palace. So you make the assumption that the rest of the Palace must be empty. Which may or may not be the case. Anyway, I treat Group 1 as the people you see, and people who would reasonably be around the Palace.

 

I think that Asmo could stop some chump DF coming at him with a knife. rd2000 makes a very similar point. That's how the powerful channelers are getting all the attention, particularly the rest of the Forsaken. And these are most of the people that I have put into suspect Group 2.

 

The whole "roadkill" concept is very puzzling to me, though. If Asmo was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, his death brought no alarm, the perp should have been free to continue on with his/her/its original purpose. Mat was a target just the previous night, and he's just down the hall, and so is Avi. I guess if we are to take RJ's word, there would have to be another objective that we have not reasoned out yet. Bob, you seem to take this "roadkill" concept very literally, short of Asmo being run over by a carriage or by Mervin's steamwagon. I don't know what RJ meant by it, that's for sure.

 

BTW, if it was the steamwagon, I think that Graendal was driving.

[Guest cwestervelt]

The blood would drain from his face upon seeing anyone that he thought was dead. If it was as simple as someone he knew would kill him, there would be indication of immediate panic, not utter and numbing shock. His initial reaction of "You?" is more akin to seeing a ghost than a living enemy.

 

The Moiraine and Lanfear supporters haven't been presenting their thoughts in a manner that leaves the details of "how" as inconsequential. The "how" has been outlined numerous times in previous posts and fits with the information presented in the books up until that point. Unfortunately for most opponents to them, even though it fits with everything we know about the murder and people's capabilities up to that point, it is too simple of an explanation. Outside intervention (Finns) covers when/where/how/why just as well, and actually better than any type of following/Travelling/random encounter scenario. If it was just a chance encounter/killing of opportunity, there wouldn't be any mystery behind it.

 

One of the biggest "clues" to the whole mystery that was presented in the following books is that we still have no confirmation of who did it. At some point, all of the "usual" suspects have had a PoV where the subject of Asmodean either came up, the charactsrs PoV came immediately after such a one and provided additional information from a different perspective. None of these PoVs have done anything other than rule out a suspect. As a result, the only truly viable suspects we are left with are those that haven't had such a PoV. Coincidentally, these correspond to the suspects that are consistently written off as impossible or "crack-brained" theories.

 

This PoV issue is a very big strike against Graendal. If Graendal had anything to do with Asmodean's death, it would have been conclusively revealed after the now infamous scene between her and Sammael. Immediately thereafter we get a rather self-satisfied/gloating PoV from her where she is thinking about how she just manipulated Sammael. Considering how she was the one who brougth Asmodean and Lanfear into the conversation with Sammael, had she had any real information about the killing it would have been noted in her subsequent PoV. That lack of additional information is a strong implication that she didn't know anymore than she already revealed, and that was actually more than she knew.

 

Now, which major character in the first 5 books haven't we had a PoV from? What do you know, I can only think of one that could possibley have anything to do with it. That would be Moiraine.

[Guest Majsju]

Cw, excluding suspects because they don't mention it in their POV's is really stretching it. It works in one case, Slayer, because of the special circumstances. But people don't constantly walk around thinking about everything they've ever done. Especially not when the man writing the POV's is the same man who gets a good laugh from watching us squirm about this.

[fader6818]

Wow, 50 pages and the thread still loads.

 

Alright, first, and i say this lovingly, you guys rip wording to shreds worse than the Debates and Discussion people. :-P

 

To Bob T Dwarf, and anyone else who thought it. Yes, I am an admin here, but I do not represent Robert Jordan, nor are my posts here definitive of some kind of official record. My saying it was Avihenda is MY OPINION, not based off of an e-mail RJ sent me, or anything. While we sometimes get information FIRST, we don't usually get much more than the entire community gets.

 

If it's not stickied, or posted on RJ's blog or in one of the more official places, then it should not be taken as "official".

 

"RJ's later quotes confirmed that Graendal was not the killer...", is clearly presented as a factual, not conjectural, statement.

 

As Bob pointed out, my use of "in my mind" and "to me" clearly set that it was my opinion. I was not attempting to "pass something off as fact", more so than I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that it was understood to be my interpretation.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I'm not excluding suspects simply because they don't mention it in a PoV.

 

I'm excluding them because it was not indicated in a PoV that was part of, or the direct result of, a discussion in which the subject of Asmodean was explicitely mentioned. If someone (in this case Greandal) brings the subject up in a discussion, and then has a PoV immediately following that speculates on how well the discussion went, it would be normal to fill in the details. Failure to do so is as much a clue to lack of involvement as doing so would have been to involvement. Doing so would be in character as shown by the scene where Sammael is complaing about the Trollocs that "Lanfear" sent to the Stone of Tear. Not doing so would be out of character.

 

At the time that Lord of Chaos was in the writing stages enjoyment of watching people squirm wouldn't fit into the equation. At that time, most people would have expected it to be answered in the following book so the debate wouldn't be that big a deal. The fact that there were ideal times to do so for Graendal, and he didn't is therefore relevant.

 

Personally, I give RJ to much credit as a writer, and a respectable one, to accept that he would allow such motivation to affect his story telling. He takes his story seriously, and by doing so, we would show significant disregard for his readers. No one likes to be played that way, and should the story end, and it turn out that he used such techniques, it would be a death sentence for his continued career as a writer. He may enjoy watching the debate, and even encourage it with such comments, but he wouldn't carry it over into the books.

[havoc110]

This PoV issue is a very big strike against Graendal. If Graendal had anything to do with Asmodean's death' date=' it would have been conclusively revealed after the now infamous scene between her and Sammael. Immediately thereafter we get a rather self-satisfied/gloating PoV from her where she is thinking about how she just manipulated Sammael. Considering how she was the one who brougth Asmodean and Lanfear into the conversation with Sammael, had she had any real information about the killing it would have been noted in her subsequent PoV. That lack of additional information is a strong implication that she didn't know anymore than she already revealed, and that was actually more than she knew.

 

Now, which major character in the first 5 books haven't we had a PoV from? What do you know, I can only think of one that could possibley have anything to do with it. That would be Moiraine.[/quote']

 

Regarding the POV issue, when the topic is on Asmo, the POV is Sammy's. The POV only changes to Graendal after Sammy leaves. It is clear that she is playing Sammy, but does not go into detail about the nature of her plans. I do not think that this disproves Graendal as a suspect.

Sammy, yes. Graendal, no.

 

Regarding Moiraine, what about the letter she left to Rand? She states that she does not know what happens after the docks, so she could not have the fore-knowledge of her killing Asmo. She would have had to have told Rand to toast Asmo at the earliest opportunity, if toasting was what she belived necessary.

[Guest cwestervelt]

The letter could have been written any time between Rhuidean and the docks. I posted on the temporary boards why I consider it likely that it was written earlier. Moiraine didn't know what was going to happen after the docks, or when the confrontation with Lanfear would occur. She only knew what would signal it was about to happen. In such a situation, it makes sense to prepare what you can ahead or time.

 

You then have the ambiguity of how the Finn's interpret things. If she wanted/needed to protect the Dragon Reborn, the result would depend on the Finn's interpretation of what a threat was. Based on her letter to Rand, she still considered Asmodean a potential thread so, should she find herself face to face with him right after talking to the Finn's she would act.

 

Addition: Concerning the PoV's. Yes, it is a Sammael PoV, and then a Graendal Pov. I realize that. My point is, in Sammael's PoV, Graendal is trying to get Sammael to go after Rand. She tries to make Sammael think that Rand killed Lanfear and Asmodean. Immediately following that we get her PoV where she thinks about how successful she was. Since she brought up Asmodean, she would have clarified in the "Sammael is a sucker" monologue.

[Graendals favourite]

As a sidenote, I'd like to put in, with the mention of Sammael speaking about Lanfear and the Trollocs, that it is also possible Sammael's words were just an indication of the well-founded distrust among the Forsaken.

 

Lanfear's plan might have been to turn Rand to the shadow by enticing him into cooperation, or to not, but it was Rand Lanfear seemed to want, and she seemed to prefer the others out of the way. At least, the Forsaken don't seem to mourn each other's deaths. The others in the plot, Sammael, Rahvin and Graendal should have each realised it possible that they might be the ones trapped. At least not to take Lanfear on her word: she even said, I will keep an eye on him, but you three keep away so ... umm... he doesn't grow suspicious (My emphasis). Rahvin thought, he who turned his back on Lanfear deserved the knife he very likely found in his back.

 

While the Forsaken acted as a group, it must be clear each would have taken separate action as well. One indication of this is Moghedien. She knew of Rahvin's preparations, but was also keeping taps with Graendal. She complicates events even more, so it's very hard to say who did what.

 

Then again it might be Lanfear's plan rested on the belief the others would, in the end, not act together, but be so suspicious of a trap that Rand and Lanfear would go unopposed.

[Graendals favourite]

Hmm, Lanfear knew about Rand having the Choedan Kal, no? Maybe Rand's saying, I will never love you, Lanfear, is to her him saying, I am going to destoy your dream of ruling the universe, yes? (I am turning into a Taraboner.)