one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Guest Majsju]

This is a topic that really bores me to death. It may be that we who have been around for years have seen this pop up about 12000 times or so, everything has been said over and over and over again.

 

If we break it down to comparing Moiraine and Graendal as the prime suspects...

 

Motive

 

Graendal

 

Graendal "knows" that Asmo is a betrayer. Since her information comes from Lanfear, it's quite obvious that she doesn't know the circumstances of that betrayal, so she most likely believes it's Asmo's own choice. This means that she would kill or capture him on sight. Capturing does not seem as a very likley choice, since we know that Compulsion doesn't work as weel, if at all, on male channelers holding Saidin. She also doesn't know about the shield Lanfear put on Asmo, so she must assume he's just as strong as he ever was.

 

Moiraine

 

She did not approve of Rand holding Asmo as a prisoner, but she understood his need. Now, Moiraine is not an idiot, she is well aware of how important it is that Rand learns to channel properly. She also "knows" that there is no one to teach him, except his tame forsaken. We have no indication that Moiraine knows, or even suspects that LTT is inside Rand's head, helping him out. She knows that Rand has learned a lot, but not how much. If Rand is to defeat the DO, which is the most important thing in Moiraine's life to ensure, he must learn as much as possible. Take away his only possible teacher, and he's back to trying to figure out things for himself. With the possibility of burning himself out in the process. Is that a risk worth taking? Does keeping Asmo alive pose a greater risk, even though she must know that Rand obviously has some means of control over him?

 

Moiraine as the killer requires that she could get a wish granted, to get the ability to kill a forsaken. Now, look back at what Moiraine has been ranting about earlier. She was extremely determined to try to push Rand into attacking Sammael, because she saw Sammael as a great threat. And even when she learned about Asmo, Sammael was still a greater threat, since Rand had absolutely no control over him.

 

If Moiraine really had wanted Asmo dead, all it would have taken was a word to one of the Wise Ones, whom she spent a considerable time with, and Rand would have found Asmo with a slit throat one morning. Instead of wasting a wish.

 

Means and opportunity

 

Graendal[/u]

 

We know that Graendal is both alive, and present in the world. We know she was involved in a plot with Rahvin, something that might have caused her to go and check out why the heck Rahvin didn't show up when he was supposed to. We've seen later that she's cautious, but not a coward when she rummages through Sammael's palace in Illian even though she faces the risk of running into both Rand and Asha'man there.

 

Moiraine

 

As far as we know at the time of Asmo's death, she's either dead, or trapped in finnland. We know of two ways to get in and out, the doorway that was destroyed, and the Tower of Ghenjei. We don't know if the finns has the ability to teleport someone first from their own realm into any place in our world, and then teleport the same person back. We haven't seen the slightest indication of that possibility.

 

RJ says that it's possible to figure out who the killer is based solely on clues in the books. Which means that it should not be necessary to invent abilities, which would be the case here.

 

And regarding her making a wish, we don't know if Moiraine knows that the Eelfinn grants wishes. She knew about what the Aelfinn does, because that doorway was dicumented. The Eelfinn doorway had been stored away in Rhuidean since the city was built, if there was any documentation to be found it would have been from the AOL, and not much survived the Breaking. The only one who we know knows about what the Eelfinn does is Mat, and I think it's safe to assume that he didn't tell Moiraine anything. And even if he had told, he didn't understand the rules.

 

Other points of interest

 

There should be a reason for the identity being kept a secret. It's now common knowledge that Moiraine is alive, so it can't be an attempt to keep that secret. Graendal on the other hand, she is a master of mindgames, and we know very little about what she's actually doing. We know even less about what she will do in AMOL. If Moiraine had killed Asmo, she would have made sure that Rand found out, so he wouldn't have to think that Asmo had simply ran away, and could return at any given moment to get revenge. We've seen Graendal putting a great deal of importance when it comes to information, she puts great effort into only letting people know what she wants them to know.

[Guest Winespring Brother]

Thats a pretty long post Maj on a topic that bores you :)

[Guest Majsju]

Well, it's not like I have anything more fun to do... :(

[Graendals favourite]

Well, a good post it is. These kinds of posts as many in this thread now should be stored as a kind of Asmodean-reference, which every one should read before posting to an Asmodean thread. That way it would not be necessary to repeat things, and everyone would have a clear idea of the arguments that are front-most.

[Guest Winespring Brother]

Well' date=' a good post it is. These kinds of posts as many in this thread now should be stored as a kind of Asmodean-reference, which every one should read before posting to an Asmodean thread. That way it would not be necessary to repeat things, and everyone would have a clear idea of the arguments that are front-most.[/quote']

 

That would be like WoT discussion heaven :idea:

It would be so great, that if he were alive John Lennon would write a song about it, starting

"Imagine an Asmo reference,

its easy if you try,

no need for such repitition,

about how the man did die."

[Guest cwestervelt]

Graendal

We know that Graendal is both alive, and present in the world. We know she was involved in a plot with Rahvin, something that might have caused her to go and check out why the heck Rahvin didn't show up when he was supposed to. We've seen later that she's cautious, but not a coward when she rummages through Sammael's palace in Illian even though she faces the risk of running into both Rand and Asha'man there.

 

I knew that would come up again, because without it, their is no basis for Graendal. And I am amazed that you actually believe it, let alone expect others to as well.

 

Graendal had something up with Rahvin. Yes, she was part of a plan to try and lure Rand to Illian were Lanfear, Samael, Graendal and Rahvin were supposed to combine and take him out. Even if there was a side plan, once she popped in, she would have gotten the hell out.

 

All Graendal supporters put far to much stock in the fact that she went to Illian to see if Sammael left anything behind. I understand you are trying to create a pattern in her motions, but it doesn't work. What you fail to realize is that there is a significant difference between tht 2 situations. Graendal knew that Sammael had found a stasis box or other stash of Ter'angreal and maybe angreal/sa'angreal. That made going to Illian to search a risk that had the promise of significant reward as she knew there was something to find. There was no evidence to indicate that Rahvin had a similar stash or that Graendal even suspected he did. As such, there was no promise of a reward to make the risk worth taking.

 

Moiraine as the killer requires that she could get a wish granted, to get the ability to kill a forsaken. Now, look back at what Moiraine has been ranting about earlier. She was extremely determined to try to push Rand into attacking Sammael, because she saw Sammael as a great threat. And even when she learned about Asmo, Sammael was still a greater threat, since Rand had absolutely no control over him.

So? We already know you don't get your wishes in a way you expected.

 

If, as Egwene (I hope it was you) speculated, she wished to be able to remove the greatest threat to Rand why would that not be Asmodean. He was probably a greater threat to Rand then any of the other Foresaken were. He was around Rand everyday, and would have to be channelling around Rand everyday. He can't teach many new weaves without demonstrating them, and by Rands own orders on page 375 or The Fires of Heaven, Rands order's for Asmodean were "From now on, you will tell me two things I don't ask about every time we talk. Every time, mind. If I think you are trying to hide anything from me, you will be glad to let Semirhage have you." That isn't really the greatest motivation for teaching someone anything. It is a good motivation for one of those 2 knew things to be a rather nasty weave that Rand has no knowledge of. Rand would be dead before he realized it.

[Guest cwestervelt]

The question mark Jonn mentioned can be applied to any of the forsaken. Considering how many forsaken who has died facing Rand, finding one of them hanging around just meters away from Rand would be quite a big, and in Asmo's case, nasty surprise.

 

Why would you say that? If Asmodean had seen any of the other Forsaken, it wouldn't have been a reaction of puzzlement but of fear. Asmodean expected one of the them would kill him the next time they say him. Puzzlement would indicate surprize at seeing someone, but not fear. The fear wasn't present until the "No!" when her realized he was a dead man.

[Guest Majsju]

Why would you say that? If Asmodean had seen any of the other Forsaken' date=' it wouldn't have been a reaction of puzzlement but of fear. Asmodean expected one of the them would kill him the next time they say him. Puzzlement would indicate surprize at seeing someone, but not fear. The fear wasn't present until the "No!" when her realized he was a dead man.[/quote']

 

Why would he not be surprised to find one of the forsaken in a palace where rahvin just got blasted into oblivion, behind a door he choses at random?

 

As for the rest, we don't know how much time passes between the You? and the No!. And just because there's a questionmark after You, doesn't mean that there's no fear when he says it.

[Graendals favourite]

Something really should be done to avoid repetition. The questions and answers come in circles and never meet. In real life, usually, if someone doesn't listen to what I say the second time, then it's down to him what happens to him, I will mind my own business. Just to say that repetition annoys me to no end. And no offense here, all arguments are as valid, by their own right.

 

Being here, cwestervelt, I'll say two points against your two points there before the last.

 

Moghedien walked the Tanchico palace and was never at risk from the Aes Sedai. Lanfear and Graendal visited the Tower and were not exposed. Any Forsaken using the power to mask himself would have no risk of exposure, going to Caemlyn and walking to and through the Palace. What is there to fear as long as they just take a care of what they do?

 

In his pov just before his death, Asmodean thought he would cling to the tuft of grass, he did not expect to survive but would try. And right he was; any of the Forsaken would have killed him given the opportunity, and they would try to get it.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Something really should be done to avoid repetition. The questions and answers come in circles and never meet. In real life, usually, if someone doesn't listen to what I say the second time, then it's down to him what happens to him, I will mind my own business. Just to say that repetition annoys me to no end. And no offense here, all arguments are as valid, by their own right.

 

If it bothers you that much then you had better stop posting and browsing bulletin boards as repetition is and always will be a fact of life on them.

 

First, when people are trying to think a post through fully, it is not uncommon for other posts to get made between when they started writing and when they finish. I've seen it happen many a time.

 

Second, duplication will always occur if someone enters late and wants to indicate support for a previous poster's comments.

 

Third, usually, as in the Graendal case, the repetition begins because the supporters can't provide answers that aren't full of wholes. Majsju brought up Graendal in Caemlyn, I point out the a whole in the reasoning for her being there. I can't say I read any other posts that bring up the difference in situations between post Rahvin Caemlyn and post Sammael Ilian. The fact is, none of the suspects can be placed in Caemlyn without Majsju's "inventing" and Graendal requires inventing based on behavior exhibited at least 3 books later (before we get her PoV), and in completely different situations.

 

Your repetition complaint goes both ways. At least I made an attempt to bring in new content.

[Guest Egwene]

Graendal's fav....good point.

 

I have posted several points that the opposition has ignored....I can only assume because they have nothing to counter it with. Instead there is a post or two on this thread that I am fairly sure has been simply copied across from the temporary board.

 

It would be nice if those that have been at it for years...instead of resting on their conviction ....would actually address new points. They may have addressed them years ago....but not in the last 20 pages of Asmo thread that I have been following.

 

Examples:

 

Moiraine may have stated a 'Need' that was interpreted by the Finns as need to kill Asmo though Moiraine may have had something different in mind. Why keep focusing on 'she did not have a motive to ask for Asmo's death'??? Why not allow for her interview to have been more like Mat's......i.e. you may ask but what you get may not be what you were expecting. Please address!!

 

Doorways....the place is in constant flux. Fact! Read Mat's account. It is much more logical to assume by anyone that has read that account that we only see part of the place and the way it is described....many doors make far more sense. (Strangly...it is actually later confirmed that Cyndane was held by the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn...so there we have another door already...) Please address!!

 

PS: cwestervelt...just read your post....guess we have made the same observation .... :lol:

[Guest cwestervelt]

PS: cwestervelt...just read your post....guess we have made the same observation ....

Sounds like you might have done exactly what I mentioned in point one of why duplication is unavoidable. :)

[Graendals favourite]

I'll then avoid the repetition and say nothing on the subject :D .

 

But usually if one should speak of Asmodean a week, the same arguments will come three times from different people, then the next week the answers to those arguments will be forgotten by the same people, and will be presented once again.

 

The thread will become of no use to anyone, since nothing is achieved. I myself would like to hear new arguments, but they are thrown off by the endless repetition. One seldom gets to think of anything one hasn't thought of before, and thinking is what we should be doing, not speaking before thinking.

 

Surely we're after the truth here, not after a suspect predetermined without any facts.

 

Why should we be able to explicitly place the culprit in Caemlyn, since we did not see him? I haven't seen any holes in my thinking, or my answers. Perhaps i'm just too idealistic here.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Why should we be able to explicitly place the culprit in Caemlyn, since we did not see him?

 

Maybe you really aren't looking for a further discussion. If not forgive me.

 

What I meant was that since we didn't see the killer but we know Asmodean was in the palace in Caemlyn, every suspect requires an "invented" way or reason to have been there. Not just Moiraine/Lanfear, or Graendal.

[Graendals favourite]

However, we know that the killer must have had some reason to be in Caemlyn. Hmm... I'm going to meditate over night whether we should know the reason.

 

Well, it's that I figured out and presented this ambush thing, and it's not on the web elsewhere that I'm aware. If I don't make sure it's known, it will be forgotten. RJ threatened to reveal the murderer after the next book, so a definite conclusion should be reached before that, if possible.

[Silver]

it was Verin!

[Guest Winespring Brother]

If it bothers you that much then you had better stop posting and browsing bulletin boards as repetition is and always will be a fact of life on them.

 

First' date=' when people are trying to think a post through fully, it is not uncommon for other posts to get made between when they started writing and when they finish. I've seen it happen many a time.

 

Second, duplication will always occur if someone enters late and wants to indicate support for a previous poster's comments.

 

Third, usually, as in the Graendal case, the repetition begins because the supporters can't provide answers that aren't full of wholes. Majsju brought up Graendal in Caemlyn, I point out the a whole in the reasoning for her being there. I can't say I read any other posts that bring up the difference in situations between post Rahvin Caemlyn and post Sammael Ilian. The fact is, none of the suspects can be placed in Caemlyn without Majsju's "inventing" and Graendal requires inventing based on behavior exhibited at least 3 books later (before we get her PoV), and in completely different situations.

 

Your repetition complaint goes both ways. At least I made an attempt to bring in new content.[/quote']

 

Mate, there is no need to get shirty. Don't go about saying people's arguements are full of holes until you can come up with flawless reasoning yourself, eh?

 

To some of the other points in this debate. Bringing in evidence for character assesment based on material that happened in later books is perfectly acceptable. It was a long time ago that RJ said that he dropped further hints as to who the killer was in later books, so you cannot say that it is irrelevant that Greandal went rummaging through Illian after the demise of Sammael, just because it happenned later.

I have never seen a completely undeniable arguement against Greandal being in Caemlyn,whether she was there before the fight took place or had only just arrived when Asmo opened the door. There are plausable arguements for either case and neither of them can be lightly discounted. Anyhow, I'll give trying to make a case for anyone because its completely clear that it cannot be proved.

 

Egwene says:

Doorways....the place is in constant flux. Fact! Read Mat's account. It is much more logical to assume by anyone that has read that account that we only see part of the place and the way it is described....many doors make far more sense. (Strangly...it is actually later confirmed that Cyndane was held by the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn...so there we have another door already...) Please address!!

 

Yes, what Mat sees is odd, but it does not mean a world in flux. Its clear the snakes and foxes do not live in a world that follows the same rules as our own. Time and space are warped in their world, but that does not mean that they are warped in a way which is constantly changing. If it did, it would be reasonable to suggest the doorways would not have stayed working for over 3 thousand years. So if current doorways stayed constant, why would new ones occur? If the 'finns can create their own doorways, why are the only ones we know of ter'angreal created with the one power? It seems to me your idea of numerous doorways is a little stretched.

You can add to this counter claim what RJ said, that the power of the 'finns is very much limited and they cannot affect things on Randland, only in their own world. The things Mat asked for he was given in a way, but only to the extent that they could have been given in that world. They gave him objects or memories to take with him.

So, we know that Moiraine is still in the world of the 'finns. If she was to have left that world to come kill Asmo, irrespective of motives, the finns would have had to release her. But once she was back in the real world they would not have had the power to take her back to their own. How could they? So why is she still with them?

The only way, and this seems beyond all extreme possibilities, would have been for the 'finns to demonstrate abilities RJ indicated they could not and open up a doorway right into that pantry, have Moiraine kill him, and then yank her back somehow to play out her captivity. *shrugs* if thats possible i will believe anything :lol:

[Guest cwestervelt]

To some of the other points in this debate. Bringing in evidence for character assesment based on material that happened in later books is perfectly acceptable. It was a long time ago that RJ said that he dropped further hints as to who the killer was in later books, so you cannot say that it is irrelevant that Greandal went rummaging through Illian after the demise of Sammael, just because it happenned later.

I have never seen a completely undeniable arguement against Greandal being in Caemlyn,whether she was there before the fight took place or had only just arrived when Asmo opened the door. There are plausable arguements for either case and neither of them can be lightly discounted. Anyhow, I'll give trying to make a case for anyone because its completely clear that it cannot be proved.

 

My point wasn't just that it occurred several books later. Included in that was the fact that in Ilian, she had first had knowledge that Sammael had found ter'angreal and maybe angreal/sa'angreal. That provided significant value to the risk. There was nothing to indicate that Rahvin had anything or that Graendal suspected he did, so there would be no value in taking such a risk. To establish a pattern, you need to have the same situation. We don't.

 

There I go repeating myself again...

[Guest cwestervelt]

it was Verin!

 

Whatever she is up to probably deserves a thread of its own. It might even be able to rival this one. Then again, page 5 in 24 to 36 hours or so is quite a high bar to have to clear.

[Guest Majsju]

My point wasn't just that it occurred several books later. Included in that was the fact that in Ilian' date=' she had first had knowledge that Sammael had found ter'angreal and maybe angreal/sa'angreal. That provided significant value to the risk. There was nothing to indicate that Rahvin had anything or that Graendal suspected he did, so there would be no value in taking such a risk. To establish a pattern, you need to have the same situation. We don't.

 

There I go repeating myself again...[/quote']

 

The sameness of the situation is that Graendal being in Illian shows that she can take such a risk if she thinks it's worth it. She may have had a completely different reason to be in Caemlyn. For example, going there to see what Rahvin is up to, finding that he's been killed, and deciding to stay and hang around for a while, maybe trying to learn something, or to see if she can get one moment alone with Asmo to kill him, or something else.

[Keige]

it was Verin!

O RLY :?:

Considering all the strange things about her, it's possible. But I still think it's another one of the Chosen.

[Guest Egwene]

Winespring Brother...I used the words 'constant flux' not to say that the world of the A'finns & E'finns is constantly changing but to describe that in that world everything is shifting about. Please, having read Mat's account I am sure you understand what I mean.

 

If everyone here started with zero knowledge, read Mat's accounts of his two trips through the doorframe and nothing else.....and after that had to enter a poll titled 'how many ways do you think are there to get out of the land of the A'finns and E'finns?'........would you have ticked one, or two or many??

 

Mat ended up hanging from a tree....how did he get there?

 

As to what RJ says....I believe everything he says....I also believe that he invented the Aes Sedai! So unless he categorically says 'yes' or 'no' to a question....I will look to see if his answer can be interpreted in any other way than the obvious...

[Caerlie]

i'm so behind the times! hurrah DM is back up. And why am i not surprised to see that Egwene has posted this topic...... :?: :!: :?: :!:

[Guest Egwene]

lol......you calling me predictable?? :shock: :lol:

 

well....just picture the scene

 

Someone has only recently started reading WoT....they come accross DM.....and NO Asmo thread?!? We would instantly loose all chance of becoming the WoT site to answer his most pressing questions!!

 

Suggestion for Admin....Wouldn't it be fun if there was a board of stickys for the FAQ's of WoT discussion....where one of the Admin/Mods would copy points accross. Basically a list of quotes from the various topics....what do you think??

 

(Maybe the FAQ library already does something like that? Couldn't find it though..)

[fader6818]

As odd as this sounds, my personal suspect for Asmodean's killer is Avihenda.

 

Yes, I'm serious.

 

I can write out a REALLY long thesis on this topic, which I have been meaning to do for a LONG time, but I've just never gotten around to it.

 

I began by reading RJ's quotes on the killer. The FIRST one that jumped out to me was that over the course of the series, only TWO people have sucessfully guessed who it was, and had evidence to prove it. Now, RJ could be twisting words with this one, but this proves one simple fact to me.

 

#1. Asmodead's killer was NOT on the list of "usual suspects". In my mind, this eliminates ALL of the Forsaken instantly, as they would have the most OBVIOUS reason for killing him. RJ's later quotes confirmed that Graendal was not the killer, nor was Lanfear (as she was dead), Ishamael, Rahvin, Be'lal, Shaidar Haran and a few others that it could have been.

 

I have read numerous theories that proposed that Asmo's death was not planned. The "He walked in on a maid stealing wine" theory. I believe this theory (and it's many variants) to be flawed. Would a maid hide the body in a way to so completely conceal his death? Could she have done it? It is quite obvious to the forsaken that Asmodean was dead, but Rand's crew didn't seem to know. TO me, this indicates that the disposal of the body was key to concealing a planned hit, not a murder done in the heat of the moment.

 

Rj has stated that it is possible to tell, at the moment of Asmo's death, who the killer is. In TFoH, we did not know the DO was giving people new bodies. Shaidar haran hadn't shown up yet.

 

More on this, using the wording from the books, later. I need a nap right now. :-)