one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Asmodean]

Asmodean.... hope you don't mind if I call you Asmo (nice name!) RJ is supposed to have planted further evidence confirming the killer in later books. I can't think of anything that would strengthen the Aviendha theory... but I'd love to be prooven wrong!

 

That works! I've read that too and my interpretation is that the later books eliminated other suspects as opposed to pointing to the killer. Basically, they eliminated Rand (from his thoughts) and Lanfear and Morainne, since we learned that Lanfear was detained, and probably killed and Morainne seemed to be detained indefinitely.

 

I'll admit the idea is kind of screwy, but it seems so simple that it almost fits in with RJs somewhat mischeavious nature at times.

[Guest Egwene]

Yes, I guess elimination of the opposition is as good as strengthening ones own position. But I don't agree with Moiraine and Lanfear being eliminated. It is confirmed that yes, as I thought they are both alive. Lanfear was held by the Finns.....

[Asmodean]

True. But the "You!?" by Asmo kind of cancels out Lanfear's return, since she came back in a different body. And it does not seem that Moiraine has escaped the Finns as of yet. Obviously, one could say either one's first wish (if they even got one) was to return in person and commit the murder, but that seems like a stretch.

 

The "You!?" also seems to paint the murderer as one that Asmo did not expect, someone he thought as of as a friend, or at least not an enemy. It could also be someone he thought of as dead, but their doesn't seem to be anyone who fits that situation and could have been there.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Aviendha could have followed him hes. She seemed pretty distracted though. Unfortunately, the description of the killing indicates that Asmodean was facing his killer immediately upon passing through the door. Your idea would have Aviendha behind him with no way to get into the room first. She had forgotten the weave she used to Travel when fleeing from Rand earlier.

[Paradoxic]

Also, consider that he picked a random door and thus she could not have run around and gone through a different door into that same room.

[Bob T Dwarf]

But, obviously ALL theories are wrong, because Asmodean is posting here... so he can't be dead at all.

 

 

:shock:

 

[Paradoxic]

Hmm... you're right again, Bob.

[ronoc/booms]

And,we see aviendha's POV many times later on. surly she would have mentioned killing the "gleeman" in her own thoughts?

[Asmodean]

I don't think it's a given that he had to enter the room and face his killer. She could have stabbed him in the back and, as he fell, he saw who it was and muttered his last words.

 

On the PoV thing, Avi's PoV is actually very infrequent compared to other characters, especially in the early books. Plus, she's an Aiel, who are somewhat secretive. Also, just because she did not think about it did not mean it did not happen. We've seen other character's PoVs and many mysteries still remain about them. I think RJ intentionally wanted it to remain a mystery with only the smallest of hints he could possibly include.

 

Of course, then he mentioned the "obvious" thing. And the only thing "obvious" about the whole thing is that Rand, Matt and Avi were definitely in the general vicinity of the murder at the right time.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I don't think it's a given that he had to enter the room and face his killer. She could have stabbed him in the back and' date=' as he fell, he saw who it was and muttered his last words.

 

On the PoV thing, Avi's PoV is actually very infrequent compared to other characters, especially in the early books. Plus, she's an Aiel, who are somewhat secretive. Also, just because she did not think about it did not mean it did not happen. We've seen other character's PoVs and many mysteries still remain about them. I think RJ intentionally wanted it to remain a mystery with only the smallest of hints he could possibly include.

 

Of course, then he mentioned the "obvious" thing. And the only thing "obvious" about the whole thing is that Rand, Matt and Avi were definitely in the general vicinity of the murder at the right time.[/quote']

 

The "You?" doesn't have the feeling of something said after he had been fatally wounded. Even the "No!" has the feeling of realization of impending death but not yet having been killed.

 

And how dare you suggest that Aviendha would stab an unsuspecting person in the back. The Toh she would incur for such a dastardly dead.

[SinisterDeath]

I don't think toh applies to a darkfriend. And the only reason she'd have wanted to kill him in such a fashoin, is if she knew he was.. Which she did not.

[JRJ]

How are these three suspects functionally different as of the end of TFoH. If it turns out that Taim did' date=' indeed, kill Asmodean... I'm sending RJ poster-sized photocopies of the dictionary entries for "intuitive" and "obvious".[/quote']

 

Maybe that is because you are professing the impossible. There is no intuitively obvious answer at the end of TFOH.

 

The fact that so many people are unwilling to even look at the possibility of a suspect not intuitively obvious at the end of TFOH is short sighted. Not to mention falsely based upon your interpretation of what Jordan has said.

[SinisterDeath]

Why isn't samuel a possible killer of asmo?

after all he knew rand was in cairhan at one point, it's only plausable he knew he was in caemlyn. And he would have a motive for killing asmo.

 

He knew he'd have to face al'thor sometime, and it be easier with out asmo there, nor as his teacher....

[Graendals favourite]

Sammael couldn't have laid the ambush, cause Asmodean would've noticed the Travelling if saidin was used.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I don't think toh applies to a darkfriend. And the only reason she'd have wanted to kill him in such a fashoin' date=' is if she knew he was.. Which she did not.[/quote']

 

I was also thinking in the terms that Asmodean was teaching Rand, and she would see herself as incurring more Toh to Rand for killing his teacher. Probably should have been clearer.

[Paradoxic]

The fact that so many people are unwilling to even look at the possibility of a suspect not intuitively obvious at the end of TFOH is short sighted.

 

As I've said before... just because I don't agree with you and find gaping holes in the logic of your theory does NOT mean I am unwilling to look at the possibility. The fact that I have taken time to analyze it shows that I've taken the time to look at it. So don't claim that I'm blind to your argument due to my disagreeing with it.

 

In an earlier post of mine, when Bob and the rest of us were discussing Bashere and/or a man of his, I stated that I've given thought to every single idea put forth and that I've never found one as likely as Graendal. I can recap each of them, the main arguments for them, and the major reasons against them... hardly possible for someone who is "unwilling to even look at the possibility of a suspect not intuitively obvious", right?

 

-------------------------------------

 

As for Sammael: He was waiting at home for Rand's attack (remember, he and the others had a deal set up to ambush Rand when he tried to strike at Sammael) and wouldn't have left to go investigating. He also has a point-of-view where he is quivering with anger over how Asmodean defected and that he would kill the traitor if he ever got his hands on him... even though Asmodean's death had already occured (why would he be lieing to himself).

[Asmodean]

I don't think toh applies to a darkfriend. And the only reason she'd have wanted to kill him in such a fashoin' date=' is if she knew he was.. Which she did not.[/quote']

 

I was also thinking in the terms that Asmodean was teaching Rand, and she would see herself as incurring more Toh to Rand for killing his teacher. Probably should have been clearer.

 

Good points. But I was thinking back to maybe something she experienced in the rings, or was told by Moiraine. Maybe she foresaw danger to Rand if Asmo was allowed to live, which is very possible given Asmo's attitude about self-preservation first.

[Bob T Dwarf]

We have been given no idea about what Aviendha may have learned in Rhuidean.

 

Even if she did learn something having to do with Asmo, we still have the problem of:

He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him.

It's pretty obvious that he is facing his killer. Avi can't yet remember how to make a gateway, so she has no way to get behind that doorway ahead of him.

[JRJ]

The fact that I have taken time to analyze it shows that I've taken the time to look at it.

 

Good for you. Now read what I said. I said "many people," not you. I was refering to some others in this thread AND more importantly, the WOT FAQ.

[Paradoxic]

Well, the implication was that I was included in those "many people" since you had quoted me in the same post.

 

As I said before, there is nothing to be gained from the discussion of Taim as Asmodean's killer. He requires his entire life story to be created and everything to be assumed. How can we debate that? You will say "assume all of this" and we'll say "all of that is supposition" and you'll say "no it isn't, I have all of this circumstancial evidence" and we'll say "that's great, here are a few alternate and equally valid explanations that do not lead to Taim killing Asmodean" and then we'll be deadlocked.

 

Yes, folks, that is the secret to why this debate always has lulls. Everyone active in the debate will come to the conclusion that there is no clear cut killer and thus only people requiring various levels of assumption. It'll trail on for a bit while people post side questions or repeat (usually without knowing since the threads get so large) old posts and get answered with repeated reasons why it wouldn't work. After awhile someone will rekindle the debate and new people will come in and discuss the issue as if for the first time. They will, naturally, have some unique insights and comments on the issue but it will simply come right back around as ALL unsolvable mysteries must.

 

The biggest issue is that we won't get any new hints. We will get more information from the books, surely, but unless it is clear cut there will be debates on whether it constitutes a new hint towards the identity or is simply being over-exaggerated by the proponent of whichever theory it appears to represent. With the fact that RJ has stated that the murderer should be intuitively obvious at the end of TFoH, opposition to new hints will decry them as outside the realm of consideration and there will be no defense against it.

 

I've made my points on Graendal a dozen times. I've stated that she requires assumptions just as ALL OTHERS must, but that she requires the fewest/smallest. The only problem for Graendal is her actually being in that closet. IF you assume that she can get into that closet one way or another, everything else makes sense. She would leap at the opportunity to kill Asmodean if she confronted him in this manner; she has the means and the motive to kill and dispose of him; she has perfectly good reasons not to brag about the murder; she even has the ability to get in and out of Caemlyn without any difficulty from anywhere in the world. As with any of the Forsaken, the difficulty is placing her in that broom closet at the time of the murder. For Lanfear, proving this is much harder... For others like Demandred and Messana, you will face the 'not introduced and thus not valid' arguement... For Sammael - disproven in later POV segments... For Moghedian - she was under arrest... and lastly, for those like Ishammael - "I was dead at the time"

 

For all the non-forsaken choices, you have to also prove motive, means, and reaction in addition to location. These are the solid facts that have to be shown and not immediately disproven by some fact in the books (such as Aviendha and our very recent conversation on her). The more that must be completed for nothing or based off other unproven theories, you face the real danger of not having any legs to stand on. How can you convince people of your theory when you have no proof? Furthermore, without proof to debate, the theory is simply something to say "oh, well, I guess... moving on". Either we will accept the theory and all required supporting theories or we shoot down any step on the list of required theories (such as Taim being a darkfriend... this is not proven and thus is another point along the line to shoot down...) An example: Asmodean meeting with some darkfriend member of Bashere's guard AND revealing himself AND that guard happens to know where he is now AND goes along with Bashere AND knows about the shield AND sneaking into just the right random closet AND kills Asmodean before he can react AND disposes of the body AND does it all without attracting attention from any of the Aiel or fellow guardsmen. Some of steps are explainable and some of them are simply too out there to accept... and some require leaps of faith that can be shutdown by anyone not agreeing with you.

 

So yes, there you go, this debate is effectly pointless. If you've read this far, congratulations.

[SinisterDeath]

Hmm... It was obivously then, Edward Cody who killed Asmo.

[Guest Egwene]

Paradoxic, the one word that intuitivly comes to mind is 'Spoilsport'.

 

Not sure what you are trying to achieve repeatedly posting that this debate is pointless. That we aren't going to end up with a convicted killer is just stating the obvious. If you feel so strongly about this debate being pointless why are you here???

[Graendals favourite]

Mmm, yea, it's the way there's that's fun, the solving of the riddle, even if the answer isn't, necessarily. My instinct when the poser of a riddle says that it can be solved, and people not finding the answer say it cannot, is that they just haven't found the right path.

 

That's why I started looking at other things myself, aside from the nagging question of why would Graendal be unmasked in that closet, and how could such a thing as happened really happen. So I think I found the solution, but that isn't to say I'd want to discourage discussion, it's always possible there's the vital golden word or phrase somewhere that clinches it. Though honestly I can't see how that could be anything but confirming Graendal. I myself, beyond gut instinct, noticed the irrationality of the murder if it wasn't an ambush only after I posted on the temp board, so I won't say discussion is pointless.

 

Though I more than understand that conveying thoughts is very frustrating sometimes, here is no exception, as people often think more of their own ideas, and thus don't always give replies the weight needed to see the point behind them.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Paradoxic -

 

Debate is only pointless when one or more parties get stuck on some point, and thereafter refuse to examine their preconceptions.

 

There seem to be two primary points that lead some to confusion.

 

1. The door Asmodean opened led directly into a closet of some sort.

 

It did not. It led into a service hallway which Asmo hoped would lead to a wine pantry someplace deeper inside the palace. No responsible steward is going to put a wine closet directly on a main hallway where anybody walking by can help themselves. The wine will be tucked away somewhere to which the public does not have access.

 

2. Partly as a result of the first assumption, those folks are then led to believe that the murderer was lying in wait inside the non-existent closet.

 

He or she was not. Supposing that the killer saw Asmo beforehand and magically chose just the right doorway to hide behind is just too much of a coincidence. He or she was someone coming down that service hallway who arrived at the doorway at the same time as Asmo did. It was a chance meeting of two people who had no reason to suspect the other was anywhere around. If the meeting were not accidental, I doubt Jordan would have chosen to describe Asmo's death as "roadkill."

 

Asmo's reaction to meeting that person tells us that he not only knew his killer, but knew that the killer knew him as Asmodean, not just as Jasin Natael. He was so surprised to see the killer that he froze.

 

That's as close to the bare bones facts as we can get. Everything beyond here requires some speculation. Here's mine.

 

The fact that Asmo's body was disposed of and the murder covered up tells me that the killer is a DF operating covertly. Asmo was known to be a traitor to the DO. Someone who would be expected to reveal the identity and allegiance of the person he met. Therefore, in order to protect the killer's identity and preserve the mission and their value to the DO, Asmo had to be killed.

 

Now, hopefully with some of the confusion cleared up, we just need to decide who that covert DF might be.

[Paradoxic]

I agree that the meeting was accidental in nature... just not with the person Asmodean ran into. The difference between a hallway and a room would be slight. If the room was a sufficiently large storage closet (150+ square feet) with another door in and out, the difference disappears. Furthermore, we don't know that Asmodean knows anything about the palace and where wine is likely to be kept (which is supported by the fact that he goes off to search for some wine rather than goes off with purpose to the wine cellar). I do not see the distinction as a major point of contention. For the accidental Graendal theory, both can work just as well.

 

The one point of issue I may have with your theory Bob is the assumption that the DF would recognize Asmodean as "Asmodean - Betrayer of the Dark". RJ has said that the DO did not order Asmodean's death, so it is logical to assume that the DO didn't spread his picture and bio out among the DFs. We have to assume that Asmodean had worked with this DF personally AND that this DF had somehow found out about Asmodean's betrayal.

 

The part of that which strikes me as odd is the idea that either another Forsaken gave him out as loan to Asmodean OR another Forsaken very quickly stepped up to gain control over a network Asmodean had put down. We know Asmodean had no reason to suspect this DF at the palace which means the DF did not come with Rand when they made the attack. Any remaining DF that Asmodean would recognize as hazardous to his health would have been ratted out to Rand shortly after he joined Rand as a sign of good will and a way to remove possible dangers. So this means that Asmodean met this DF some time before joining up with Rand in the waste. Well, Caemlyn was under Rhavin's control and I do not believe Asmodean could have done anything with DFs in that city. Also, Asmodean would have known about any DFs in the palace that may recognize him and I do not believe he would have wandered around so freely if he had any assumption of assassination.

 

From this we draw the conclusion that this DF would have been from elsewhere. Either a newly arrived DF for inclusion into the Caemlyn system, a lone DF on a mission, or a DF that came along with another group. I would, of those options, stick to number two or three.

 

Note: All of the above is as true for a random Saldaen soldier as it is for Taim.

 

What bugs me about the random DF theory is that no one knew about Asmodean's shield. I simply do not see a DF saying "Oh, kill the great male channeler and ancient friend of the dark Asmodean with only my sword? Sure thing boss!". A channeler (Taim, Black Sister, other Forsaken, random male channeler) would be more likely because at least they would have a chance. The further problem, in regards to the actual act, would be the fighting ability of this DF. Your average DF cannot be assumed to have the lightning reflexes of an assassin. So either the DF is on an assassination mission (of Asmodean or someone else) or it is a lucky coincidence that this particular DF has the skills of a highly trained killer and/or the ability to channel.

 

So in conclusion, the issues that stand are:

1) Where did the DF come from?

2) How did he recognize Asmodean?

3) How did Asmodean recognize him?

4) Why did Asmodean immediately equate this DF's presence with the end of his life?

5) How did the DF do the deed?

6) Why was the DF in the area?

7) How does this theory tie in with the idea of "further hints" in following books and with the idea that the killer should be obvious by the end of TPoD (both of which were stated by RJ since TFoH)?