one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Here's a few more quotes: ( I have added emphasis here and there ) These are from the copy of the Tor QOTW on wotmania.

 

Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

 

There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.

 

Week 4 Question: At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. <Maniacal laughter from the shadows!>

 

Week 7 Question: I would like to ask about knotting a weave. Does a channeler determine how long it will last when she knots it or is it dependent on her strength? If a channeler who knotted a weave died, would the weave dissipate immediately?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The length of time the knot lasts is the choice of whoever makes the knot. It is not strength dependent. And the knot would continue in existence if the channeler died, at least if the channeler had not set it to unravel in a certain time. Remember, tying off a weave is a way to keep the weave in existence without having to actually channel to maintain it, so once it is tied off, there is really no need for the channeler to continue living for the weave to be maintained.

 

Week 15 Question: What does the Dark One view as the worst punishment he can inflict on his minions: Killing them as painfully as possible? Balefire? Mindtrap? Being continually resurrected to suffer at his hand for eternity? Something we haven't seen yet?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The Dark One doesn't care about his minions sufficiently to invest much time in their punishment except as it serves to correct their behavior or as object lesson to others, nor is there much in the way of gradation. Simple failure and outright betrayal might be punished equally, or one might result in death and the other in becoming an object lesson or in something else. (The mindtrap, by the way, could be called an object lesson only to the one so trapped; remember, none of the Forsaken know who is mindtrapped except Moridin and those who are trapped.) The decision, death or object lesson or something else, normally would be simply a matter of whether or not he believed there was any point to an object lesson and/or whether or not he felt there was really any further use in the individual. Or, for that matter, made for reasons unknowable to a human mind. Remember, the Dark One is NOT human and thinking of him in human terms just doesn't work.

 

But he also operates under a constraint that did not exist in the Age of Legends. At that time, about 3% of the population could learn to channel to some extent, though not all chose to -- the training program took time, and being able to channel carried with it certain obligations that not everyone wanted to undertake -- but that still meant there were, at a minimum, hundreds of thousands of people in the world who could channel, and more likely millions. A large pool of possible recruits. Break a tool or decide it isn't working right and throw it out, because there is an endless supply of similar tools waiting on the shelf. That might be said to have been his attitude. In the here-and-now of the books, that figure is about 1%, and of that 1%, very, very few have any idea that they could learn to channel, much less have any training at all. Here-and-now, the pool of possible recruits is tiny.

 

Also, while the Forsaken themselves have realized that these primitives have discovered how to do things with the Power that they themselves cannot, or perhaps can once they learn how but never dreamed of doing until they found that the weaves existed here-and-now, they still think of people in the here-and-now as primitives, and their attitudes filter through to the Dark One, who believes that his people from the age of Legends are in all practical ways better -- for which read better trained, more capable, and thus better able to serve him efficiently and effectively -- than the people of the present time. And he is right. In a way. They are certainly better trained, with a much wider knowledge, at least in some areas. Some of their skills are absolutely useless in the society they are forced to live in. Aginor was a genius in biology and genetics, but in this world, he had no way to make the tools to make the tools to make the tools…. Well, you get the idea. Pity the poor chip designer dropped into the seventeenth century.

 

In any event, the Dark One tries to conserve his resources, using and reusing those he might have killed himself, or ordered killed, in a time where there were thousands to equal them.

 

Questions from February 1st, 2005 - July 19th, 2005

 

Week 1 Question: Are the Eelfinn limited in their power to grant wishes? To what degree can they affect the outside world? Also, is there any relation between what the Aelfinn do and Min's ability?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Oh, yes, there definitely are limits to the powers of the Eelfin. For one thing, they cannot affect the outside world at all. If you said that you wanted to be King of the World, you might well find that what you received was not what you expected. For example, they might put you out of their world into a world with no other sentient life, where you would be king by default. Then again, you might find yourself with the necessary skills to make yourself King of the World, if you were able. Actually achieving it would be up to you. But then, many of their "gifts" are skewed in this way. You must be very careful is you're asking if you want to receive what you are hoping for. And yet, remember that Mat actually did receive very much what he asked for. Just not in the way that he wanted.

 

No, there is no connection between what the Aelfinn do and what Min does.

 

Week 2 Question: Is the mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran the same as that the Forsaken received from the Dark One? If so, is she now a Forsaken, or some sort of lesser Chosen?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it.

 

From a different source... can't remember where right now... maybe the CNN interview:

 

10. Did the Dark One order Asmodean's death? If not, how does he know about it in the prologue of Lord of Chaos?

 

No, he didn’t order Asmodean’s death, but he knows a great deal about what goes on in the world, though it isn’t complete knowledge.

 

So, unless we are willing to postulate that Shadar Haran IS the DO's avatar, the DO didn't kill Asmo itself. Asmo saw a physical person. Someone he recognized.

 

As you can see, some speculations have been precluded by the author. Others, like Taimandred, have only been furthered. His answer there is decidedly devious. It also seems apparent that Caemlyn will remain a dangerous place for any man to channel for a very long time.

 

Also, we may not have seen the last of Bel'al, since it was Moiraine who killed him and she has so little strength with balefire. Asmo may make a curtain call as well.

[Guest Egwene]

Robert Jordan Answers: Oh, yes, there definitely are limits to the powers of the Eelfin. For one thing, they cannot affect the outside world at all. If you said that you wanted to be King of the World, you might well find that what you received was not what you expected. For example, they might put you out of their world into a world with no other sentient life, where you would be king by default. Then again, you might find yourself with the necessary skills to make yourself King of the World, if you were able. Actually achieving it would be up to you. But then, many of their "gifts" are skewed in this way. You must be very careful is you're asking if you want to receive what you are hoping for. And yet, remember that Mat actually did receive very much what he asked for. Just not in the way that he wanted.

 

So... the Eelfin can't physically themselves put the crown on your head, but they can make sure you get to be king. They could not physically themselves have killed Asmodean, but they could have given someone the knowledge on how to do it or the opportunity to do it. They need someone to state a need. If that is expressed in a slightly ambigous manner than they will interpret it the way they want. I see nothing in that quote that eliminates either Moiraine or Lanfear. (I assume you posted it for the benefit of M&L supporters)

 

Off topic - I've just worked out how to do the 'small quote' bit! Feeling quite pleased with myself :P

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well, you still have to postulate that either of them made a wish that somehow touched on those around Rand. Then you have to postulate that the Eelfinn interpreted that wish so as to make Asmo's death necessary.

 

But, most of all, you have to postulate that the Eelfinn - who cannot affect the world in any way, were able to drag whichever one you think did the deed, back to Finnland.

 

Based on what Jordan wrote, I don't see that as being possible. They might, - might - be able to put either of them out into that hallway, but they couldn't recover them afterward.

[Paradoxic]

As per Demandred's "Loving Conversations with the Dark One", Asmodean is perminately dead and long gone.

[JRJ]

Not for another male. When Rand attacks Sammael in Illian' date=' he specifically forbids any of the Ashamen from channeling because he [i']will[/i] detect it and immediately attack the channeler on the presumption that it's Sam. He doesn't want any friendly fire incidents.

 

Then he goes on to prove himself right by immediately detecting Sam's gateway at a considerable distance.

 

I think it is pretty clear by now that Gateways are extremely powerful and are VERY easy to detect. Gateways, blocking them, Balefire, and use of Sa'angrael are very easy to detect because of their high amount of required channeling power.

 

What I'm saying is that none of those high powered weaves were used because I agree that no male could have Traveled into or out of Caemlyn to kill Asmodean.

 

What is left is someone who walked into and out of the palace, and killed Asmodean with a quiet weave, ala Taim in LOC.

 

However, I disagree with this :

 

It can't be a male channeler for two reasons:

Rahvin had warded and trapped the entire city against any male channeling but his own.

 

Until Rand tripped most of those wards. Not to mention, those wards could have also been for women.

 

Rand would have immediately detected a male channeling and at the very least nvestigated.

 

Sorry, but no. As I pointed out before, detection of male channeling is not certain. Asmodean channeled right in front of Rand, and wasn't noticed. Mazrim Taim in LoC managed to kill the Greyman instantly without anyone noticing him until the Bar of Fire crossed the room. If anything is proven in this series, is the difficulty of detecting male channeling.

 

JRJ, I don't follow your logic why you say Male channeling is more difficult to detect. Neither male nor female can detect channeling before it is done! So Rand noticed it the instant Asmo started, quick enough to cover up the physical evidence. Because he absolutely did not expect Asmo to channel, he was startled. Where in that whole episode you see evidence for male channeling to be difficult to detect, I do not understand.

 

No, he was startled because the cup started to go straight for him. He thought it did it on it's own, ala a bubble of evil. He didn't realize until afterwards that it was Asmodean.

 

As far as understanding the general idea that males are harder to detect, I can't help you there. Either you accept it or not. Rand even thinks to himself "Women who could channel saw a glow surrounding another woman who had embraced saidar and felt her channeling clearly, but he never saw anything around Asmodean, and felt little." And that is with Asmo in the same tent!

 

That is why Cadsuane uses her Ter'angrael to find male channelers.

 

Some more quotes for you from the WOT FAQ:

 

[TFOH: 55, The Threads Burn, 664]: When Rand is running around trying to balefire the hell out of Rahvin, even though Rahvin is holding saidin, Rand can't feel where he is.

 

[TFOH: 55, The Threads Burn, 662]: Rand recalls Asmo describing trying to locate another man channeling as "like trying to find a lion in high grass."

 

And compare that to female channeling :

 

"A female can sense another female, even if neither of them are holding the Source at the time. This is a skill which takes some time to learn. If one is really good, it is not necessary to see the other woman in order to know she is there. For example, one of the Tower AS senses Eg in the throne room in Cairhien, even though she was invisible. In addition, a female can tell when another is embracing the Source, by a great glow surrounding the channeler. Of course, female channelers can sense active female channeling, as well as the presence of other female channelers."

 

WOT FAQ 2.3.05

 

There is a huge different as you can clearly see.

[joe]

"For a moment rage engorged her face as deeply as it had for Asmodean. For a moment Rand stood on the brink of death. Then fury vanished with startling abruptness, buried behind a seductive smile. 'No, I mustn't kill him. Not after we have gone to so much effort'" -The Shadow Rising pg. 974

 

I believe that when RJ said the killer's identity was obvious, he did not mean that a police investigation or crime-solving techniques would yield one true answer. I think he meant that the answer is intuitive to the reader, meaning that the descriptions in the books are our best source of information. Lanfear is unstable, has little control over her emotions. She acts like a spoiled child most of the time, throws tantrums, and doesn't have any regard for human life. Also, as I have quoted above, she already came within an inch of killing Asmodean, plus she was involved with him in a complicated plot for almost a full book. Finally her plans come to fruition and she is making headway, and she suddenly gets royally pissed off, comes close to killing Rand, and gets shoved through a magical door, where she gets 3 wishes granted. The only reason that this happens is (as far as she knows) that Rand learned too much from Asmodean and was able to hold her off long enough. Hm...well maybe she was angry enough to say "I wish I could kill Asmodean!" or somthing to that effect after she went through the door. To me this is the only explanation that works: bringing in another suspect who is only loosely related to the circumstances is streching intuitition too far, while assuming that Lanfear (1) knows about the 'finns, (2) wants to kill Asmodean and (3) is in an irrational state of anger when she makes the wishes, is not nearly as much of a strech.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Joe, your making your wish too specific. RJ talks about direct wishes like that either in his blog or in the question of the week. It is very difficult to get exactly what you wish for. Wishing that she could kill Asmodean may get her placed in a position possible to do it, but it could result in the Finn's doing nothing as she already possessed the necessary abilities to kill him. Now, if you rephrased to say that she wished to do irrepareable harm to Rand al'Thor for having spurned her, then she might get dumped into a position to kill his teacher.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Until Rand tripped most of those wards. Not to mention' date=' those wards could have also been for women.[/quote']

 

No. And we have no idea how many were set nor how many Rand tripped. We can only really be sure he tripped one.

"... Al'Thor means to go after Rahvin. Today. This morning. Because he thinks Rahvin killed Morgase. I don't know whether he did or not, but al'Thor believes it. But rahvin never trusted Lanfear. He never trusted any of them. Why should he? He thought it all might be some trap set for him, so he has laid a trap of his own. He has set Wards through Caemlyn so that if a man channels a spark he will know. Al'Thor will walk right into it. He almost certainly already has. I think he meant to leave Cairhien right after sunrise....

 

Sorry, but no. As I pointed out before, detection of male channeling is not certain. Asmodean channeled right in front of Rand, and wasn't noticed. Mazrim Taim in LoC managed to kill the Greyman instantly without anyone noticing him until the Bar of Fire crossed the room. If anything is proven in this series, is the difficulty of detecting male channeling.

 

It is proven that it is nearly impossible for a woman to sense a man channeling. Men can sense each other channeling quite easily.

Reaching down to those weaves, Rand untied the knot, and, as the gateway winked from existence, reluctantly released saidin. All the flows vanished from the sky. Maybe some of the Asha'man still held on to the Source, but he had told them not to. He had told them that any man he felt channeling in Illian once he himself stopped, he intended to kill without warning. He did not want to find out afterward that the channeler had been one of them. He leaned on the wall, waiting, wishing he could sit. His legs ached and his side burned howeever he stood, yet he might need to see as well as feel a weave.

 

...

 

A man channeled. For a moment, Rand froze, staring at the Great Hall of the Council. That had been enough of saidin for a gateway; he might not have felt a much smaller channeling the length of the square. It had to be Sammael.

[joe]

Yes, I meant to imply that her wish need not be so specific. However, (I believe) there are lines that even the finn's won't cross: they will grant your wish, just not in a way you might like. If I asked for a house I might get somthing made out of lego blocks but it would still be a house, if you get my drift. I'm not sure but I believe that somewhere it is mentioned that the people in the AoL knew about the finns, which would mean that Lanfear would be aware of their ways, and could probably manage to get what she wants.

[JRJ]

"... Al'Thor means to go after Rahvin. Today. This morning. Because he thinks Rahvin killed Morgase. I don't know whether he did or not' date=' but al'Thor believes it. But rahvin never trusted Lanfear. He never trusted any of them. Why should he? He thought it all might be some trap set for him, so he has laid a trap of his own. [u']He has set Wards through Caemlyn so that if a man channels a spark he will know.[/u] Al'Thor will walk right into it. He almost certainly already has. I think he meant to leave Cairhien right after sunrise....

 

That is what Moggy THINKS. RJ has said repeatedly that what characters THINK they know, they might be wrong.

 

Not that I care how many wards or whatever where there, but the reality is that no one knows how many wards or if there were any for females.

 

A man channeled. For a moment, Rand froze, staring at the Great Hall of the Council. That had been enough of saidin for a gateway; he might not have felt a much smaller channeling the length of the square. It had to be Sammael.

 

Come on already. Of course Rand felt the Gateways. I just stated that in my last post. Strong powerful weaves can be felt no matter what.

 

Quiter weaves, like moving a cup in the air, are not detectable. And niether is the Bar of Fire that Taim used in LOC.

[Marak]

...What the hell are you talking about?

 

There are various theories floating around that the two servants that Rand sees when chasing Rhavin are Graendal and Sammael in disguise so that one of the other can be placed in Caemlyn for the attack.

 

Your comments of

Graendal:

What if Graendal was in the hallway when Asmodean turned up?

 

Sammael:

What if Sammael was waiting for Asmodean in the hallway?

 

Tend to fit the pattern than those theories follow. At least of the ones I read.

 

It's really quite simple. Sammael and Graendal were plotting with Rahvin. Hence, they were much more likely to be in Caemlyn. They were the first two that came to mind. At the moment, I don't suscribe to any theory, I keep an open mind. I just like pointing out the fallacies in all the theories currently in existence.

 

Apart from the Bela theory. The Bela theory just can't be beaten.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Come on already. Of course Rand felt the Gateways. I just stated that in my last post. Strong powerful weaves can be felt no matter what.

 

Quiter weaves' date=' like moving a cup in the air, are not detectable. And niether is the Bar of Fire that Taim used in LOC.[/quote']

 

This too is circular logic. You want it to be a male channeler, so you invent ways for it to be a male channeler. Deciding arbitrarily which weaves Rand can detect and which he cannot.

 

Which male channeler? Among the Forsaken, the only male still living is Demandred and we haven't met him yet. Among the non-Forsaken, we haven't met any male channelers yet.

[Angel of Death]

We had met Sammeal.

[Bob T Dwarf]

And you have to get Sammael into Caemlyn somehow; past Rahvin's Wards and Traps. That is completely out-of-character. Sam doesn't act openly against Rand. He won't risk any encounter with Rand anywhere other than ground he has selected and personally prepared.

 

Further, as shown in Lord of Chaos, he doesn't even know Asmo is dead.

 

Chapter 6 - Threads Woven of Shadow

"...Have you learned where al'Thor is hiding Asmodean? Or anything of Lanfear's whereabouts? Or Moghedien's?"

Sam is out-of-the-loop on this one. All he knows is what he gets from Graendal, and all she passes on is rumors at this point.

 

From the Prologue to Lord of Chaos -

"...You want to know what the Great Lord told me? Very well. But it stays here, held close. Since Sammael chose to stay away, he learns nothing. Nor do the others, whether alive or dead..."

[rogue5]

Lanfear's wish, "I want Rand easier to control" POOF goodbye Asmo!! There could be any number of ways she could have gotten what she wanted, the hows are fluid, I think RJ wanted to get the WHY's across to us. That maybe why he keeps us in the dark about the killer or how it was done. There is no proof in the books just the general understanding of who wanted to do it. It was a lashing out by Lanfear because of what happened to her on the docks, she was beaten by a lowly AS of this backward age and lost Rand. I would be PO'd if years of laid plans were ruined in minutes. Also Asmo was evidence against her in the eyes of the DO, Asmo was something that could bite her in the tukus later if not taken care of. It could be why she is mind trapped now and Mordins' plaything, she is paying peniance for killing him...

[Guest Majsju]

Rahvin's wards does not exclude Sammael, since Rand set them off when he arrived, and we saw when Rand attacked Illian that they must be reset once triggered.

 

But that would basically require that Sammael Knew that Rand had attacked Rahvin, and that Rand had won. And then go against his MO, which is sitting back relying on defence.

[Paradoxic]

This too is circular logic. You want it to be a male channeler' date=' so you invent ways for it to be a male channeler. Deciding arbitrarily which weaves Rand can detect and which he cannot.[/quote']

 

However, the weaves were not decided arbitrarily. We know for a FACT that gateways require a lot of the power as it is stated several places in the books (only the stronger channelers can draw enough power to open a gateway). Asmodean's floating a cup to Rand used only very little power as it was simple (akin to the tricks that novices and students learn at the Towers, which by their nature of being some of the first things learned, are easy).

 

The question comes, then, to where balefire falls on the spectrum. I do not believe it requires a lot of strength, I seem to recall reading that somewhere, but I could be wrong. Either we know it takes relatively little power OR we have no idea how much power it takes. We know Moiraine could use it, but she's pretty strong. We know that all the main channelers can use it, as well as the Forsaken, but all of them are strong. However, since it is a forbidden weave, we lack in examples of people using it. It isn't that a weak AS can't use balefire, it is that they don't know how and wouldn't use it even if they did.

 

JRJ assumes, as I do, that it takes only a little power. This is no different than assuming it takes a lot of power. We seem to lack information on the required power for balefire, and thus we can assume anything we want about it.

 

As for Sammael, he couldn't have done it. As I said not 20 posts ago, he has a POV scene where he is quivering with rage over how he wishes Asmodean hadn't run off or he'd kill him with his own hands. Even if you think Sammael is just acting that way (out of character for him, and he's bad at it anyway according to Graendal), the two servant theory is DEFINATELY out of the question because why would he be lieing to Graendal about he and Graendal going and killing Asmodean?

[Bob T Dwarf]

The Caemlyn and Illian cases are not directly analogous. Rand, Aviendha, and Asmo were the only channelers present in Caemlyn. Avi and Asmo were killed by the first trap. I'd think it's fair to say that Rand tripped all the Wards in the immediate vicinity of the palace, but those scattered throughout the city...probably not.

 

In Illian, Rand made the initial gateway. After that all of the Asha'man he brought made their own gateways to dispersed locations throughout the city. Then they all shut down to wait for Sam to show up. All of that channeling to scattered places would have most likely tripped all or most of the Wards that Sam had set.

 

Either way, as we both agree, going to Caemlyn is entirely counter to Sam's MO. Whether Rahvin was still in control or Rand was, Caemlyn would have been a far too dangerous place for Sammael to be.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Since we all seem to agree it could not have been any known male channeler, that leaves only female channelers as suspects if we buy that Asmo was killed with the Power. ( Which I do not )

 

Moggy is an unconcious prisoner at the time Asmo is killed. We have yet to meet Mesaana or Semirhage in their own skins. Graendal, like Sam, ( which is why they're natural allies ) will only act openly when the deck is stacked in her favor. Caemlyn is not such a deck. Again, it goes totally against type for her to be there.

 

The Finns cannot directly affect the real world. We know from Mat's experience that they extract their price before they grant any wish. Since they cannot affect the real world they have no way to return either Moiraine or Lanfear to their control once they turn them loose. Since Lanfear has been transmigrated when we next see her, she was undoubtedly dead before the Finns finished with her. So far as we know, the only way a ghost can kill in Randland is if they frighten somebody to death. I doubt that Asmo dropped dead entirely from fright. Moiraine is still stuck in Finnland. She could not have been released; could not have been in Caemlyn; could not have killed Asmo, else she would not still be in Finnland.

 

So, if it's a female channeler, it has to be some AS or BA whom Asmo would recognize. We know of no such person. Verin and Alanna are the first AS that Rand, or anyone around him, encounters after Moiraine and Lanfear disappear through the doorway, and they don't show up until the next book.

 

Thus, it seems we are forced to consider only mundane killers and mundane methods of death.

[Jedimuppet]

You're excluding Graendel based on your understanding of her psychology, but her understanding of events at the time, and hence whether or not she would risk exposure in a certain place is unknown to you. You cannot conclude that she coudlnt' have been there because of her supposed aversion to danger when you dont' know what her mental state was at the time.

 

It may be she knew something that you do not that changed things in her mind.

 

I suppose that's true of Sammael, but we know from his POV that he didn't know Asmo was dead.

J

[ronoc/booms]

hmmmmm...mundane.... i personally believe that it must be someone working for the shadow. (asmodean didn't know that many peolpe from the good side) that could be Isam/Luc but i think its likely that he would have mentioned killing asmodean when we get his pov in Far Madding. then there's the problem of the body. whoever killed him would have had to get rid of it pretty quickly. i still think there's a similarity between Herid Fell's (i think i spelled that wrong, you know the half-mad genius, who likes min) death and asmodean's. it was unexpected and happened quickly. i am sure though, that it couldn't have been someone who's pov we've had. and that rules out alot of people. *begins reciting list......finished several hours later*

[Bob T Dwarf]

You're excluding Graendel based on your understanding of her psychology' date=' but her understanding of events at the time, and hence whether or not she would risk exposure in a certain place is unknown to you.

J[/quote']

 

I'm excluding Graendal based on a number of things. I think I've spelled them all out before, but here goes again, anyway:

 

1. She needs to feel personally safe in venturing into Caemlyn. She knows Rahvin's attitude from her previous visit. eg. "Send an emissary. I will decide when and where and if."

 

2. She needs knowledge of events in Caemlyn. How?

 

3. She needs a way to get there that she can be sure Rahvin doesn't have trapped. What might that be?

 

4. She needs to feel certain she can avoid Rand. Again, how?

 

5. She needs a reason that overrides all considerations of safety. What is so utterly vital that she'd risk putting her head in the lion's mouth?

 

6. She needs more luck than Mat.

 

That's a heck of a parlay. If she could manage all that, she could give up the whole risky Forsaken thing and just win fortunes betting on the horses in Abou Dar.

[JRJ]

This too is circular logic. You want it to be a male channeler' date=' so you invent ways for it to be a male channeler. Deciding arbitrarily which weaves Rand can detect and which he cannot.[/quote']

Lol, whatever. I showed you in black and white evidence that was given in TFOH to prove my point. I don't want it to be a male channeler, I know it to be. The facts support my conclusion, unless you have some counterevidence.

 

Which male channeler? Among the Forsaken, the only male still living is Demandred and we haven't met him yet. Among the non-Forsaken, we haven't met any male channelers yet.

Since when is meeting the killer a requirement? All Jordan has said is that the killer is obvious. And what Jordan considers as obvious has lead to years of debate, so it's clearly not obvious to the WoT Community.

 

So I don't dismiss characters because we, the readers, haven't met them. Any character that was around long enough for Asmodean to have had the chance to meet him prior to going into the Waste AND has been mentioned at least once should be suspect, so long as they still are in that same body. (Which is why Asmodean couldn't have recognized Moridin, Cyndane or the 'Gars)

[Bob T Dwarf]

You're totally right about Moridin, Cyndane, and the 'gars.

 

You're simply not right about a male channeler. Which one? Demandred? We haven't met him yet, so he can't be a better suspect than either Semirhage or Mesaana whom we also haven't met yet.

 

Sammael? He has been setup as bait by Lanfear, Graendal, and Rahvin. He's expecting Rand to attack him. He's busy setting Wards and Traps on Illian itself, and more Wards and Traps at his border forts. Not to mention the Wards and Traps he's setting up in Shadar Logoth. Not to mention that he doesn't attack, he defends, and counterattacks.

 

Taim? Again, we haven't met him yet, so he can't be a better suspect than any of the others we haven't met.

 

Logain? He's been stilled, and is still in Salidar besides.

 

Who else is there? Rahvin and Bel'al have been balefired.

 

Asmo wasn't killed by a floating goblet. Your assumption that balefire would be undetectable is simply unwarranted by anything we know.

[JRJ]

Taim? Again' date=' we haven't met him yet, so he can't be a better suspect than any of the others we haven't met.[/quote']

 

Of course he can be a better suspect.

 

Jordan ruled out Padan Fain because he lacked Opportunity, so that is the number one thing to look for ihmo. Being in Andor, perhaps even the Palace prior to Asmodean's death would give him a better opportunity than any suspect we have met. He isn't in Finnland, like Moi or Lanfear, so clearly he is a better suspect that either of them.

 

Then there is the issue of getting away with the murder. As I pointed out above, a male channeler who doesn't need to Travel to do the deed, would stand a MUCH higher chance of getting away with the murder.

 

Plus, we know Taim is strong enough to do so (Joiya told us so), has shown later in the books that he has the tools to do so, and is definately mean enough to do it.

 

Not to mention, we have no POV's from Taim remotely counter to him doing the deed. Graendal's conversations with Sammael greatly reduce any chance that she did the deed in my mind.