one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Guest cwestervelt]

In a normal death, a Thread terminates when a person dies. With balefire, the Thread was terminated before the person died. Why do you want balefire to be so different from all of the other weaves we have seen. They all have a minimum amount of strength that is needed to make it work, and the result varries based on the amount of Power used. You can do a weaving without the strength to make it work, but the result is nothing happening. Sorilea teaches Cadsuane a weave (Travelling I think) that Sorilea can't make work because it requires more strength. Balefire to weak to effect the pattern can be seen the same way. It just won't form.

 

Rand can control his Balefire. He can burn minutes as he did with Rahvin, or he can burn seconds as he did with the Myrddraal afterwards. If you read the battle sequence in Caemlyn after Rand rejoins the main fight, you will realize that he is killing a lot of Myrddraal and Trollocs. Enough that he routes them single handed. Even most of the Myrddraal spur there horses away from him. If, for each of those that he killed, he burned out however much time his battle with Rahvin took, you would have several hours worth of accummulated time burned out of the Pattern. You would have had people disappearing and reappearing right and left and the battle would have been utter chaos. We only have indication that people were returned to life from one balefire use, and that was when Rand killed Rahvin. Even if there was only 1 second per target burned out, the Pattern would definitely have been strained from the cummulative effects of unweaving and reweaving that many times.

 

The evidence supports the concept of less time being burned from the pattern based on the amount of power put into the balefire.

[Guest Egwene]

I would agree with CW. Also, when Rand first learned about Balefire, he did not know how it worked, so he used it randomly. When he killed Rahvin, he was consummed by hate, despair, need for revenge and so on. So he just went for it and the Balefire would be about as intense as he can make it at present (don't forget, he is still growing in his abilities).

 

Once he was back in control, he used the minimum strength required. When the book says 'it seemed to make no difference' I took that to mean the fact that the shadowspawn still died. There is no indication (that I can find) that more people rose from the dead.

 

I read the comment Alys made about the words being spoken whilst maybe he already has a dagger through his chest. I am not sure if that would work. Wouldn't Asmo still be able to channel? If no... than wouldn't the wound be too instant for words?

 

Bob, sure you'd start with those present.... the point I am making is that you seem to indicate we should ONLY consider those present and you refuse flat to even look at why others might have had a motive. RJ says we have enough evidence... NOT the killer is one of the known occupants. That's where you make up something to suit your theory...

[Bob T Dwarf]

Balefire too weak to affect the Pattern being too weak to form... hmmm... might work.

 

Right now, I can't come up with a good enough analogy to explain how I think it works.

 

That probably means that I'm wrong, so I'll let it go. :lol:

[Bob T Dwarf]

When the book says 'it seemed to make no difference' I took that to mean the fact that the shadowspawn still died. There is no indication (that I can find) that more people rose from the dead.

 

I read the comment Alys made about the words being spoken whilst maybe he already has a dagger through his chest. I am not sure if that would work. Wouldn't Asmo still be able to channel? If no... than wouldn't the wound be too instant for words?

 

Bob' date=' sure you'd start with those present.... the point I am making is that you seem to indicate we should ONLY consider those present and you refuse flat to even look at why others might have had a motive. RJ says we have enough evidence... NOT the killer is one of the known occupants. That's where you make up something to suit your theory...[/quote']

 

About people rising from the dead... we just don't know. He's firing into a solid mass of Trollocs and Myrddraal that have a group of Aiel surrounded and are systematically chopping them to bits. He knows there are allies in the center but he can't see them, so we can't either. Methodically he destroys the baddies until they break and run, at which point we get our first look at those that were surrounded. Did any of them rise from the dead? We can't tell.

 

Asmo is frozen in mid-stride by the shock of who he sees. He dies instantly as he's speaking the word "No!" He couldn't have channeled.

 

I'm not refusing to look at anybody.

 

The DO had a motive - Asmo had betrayed him. Jordan has flatly said the DO did not order the hit. Unless Shaidar Haran has become a lot more independent than we've seen, that takes him out of the picture. We've also seen nothing to indicate that the DO can act directly at that distance. That takes the DO itself out of the picture.

 

Sammael had motive, and he'd expressed a desire to kill Asmo. Yet, Sam doesn't even know he's dead. He couldn't channel anywhere within a half-mile of Rand without being detected anyway.

 

Graendal, whether she had motive enough or not, is offstage attempting to meet with Moghedien. She's out.

 

Padan Fain, who would have gladly killed Asmo just to put a thumb in both the DO's and Rand's eye is offstage and out-of-sight at this point. There is nothing to indicate that Asmo would recognize Fain.

 

Luc/Isam only kills wolves for pleasure, and has no known patron for a hit on Asmo. There is nothing to indicate that Asmo would recognize Slayer.

 

Moiraine and Lanfear are, so far as can be determined, both stuck in Finnland at this time. It takes a whole chain of improbable events to put either of them in place to kill Asmo.

 

All other known Forsaken are dead and have not yet been transmigrated.

 

So far as any of us know, Demandred, Semirhage and Mesaana have not entered the picture yet.

 

That exhausts my list of outside potential killers.

 

Who else would you like me to consider?

[jasonr]

I swore I wouldn't enter this one... but I can't help myself.

 

Here's to ruling out Moraine: SHE IS STUCK IN FINNLAND!!! We all know that to get out of finnland, she needs the help of Mr. Lucky Man Mat, Awsome Gleeman dude Thom, and another undecided posible ultra awsome channeling dude/lady + many Ter'angreal for disguise and offensive porposes. (and it is divises for making fire, not light) We know that somehow, they have to go through some friggen hard task(s) to get Moraine. What in the world makes you think that she can just stroll out and go around killing Asmo? Oh right, if Lanfear can do it, so can Moraine. FYI- Lanfear has the knowledge of the AoL and the help of the DO+Shardar Harnan+ possibly Ishy.

 

Motives!!!! What motives do Moraine have to kill Asmo? Does she just go on a blood thirsty rage?

 

 

Ok, end of that. Now, of course, every Asmo thread needs to have a crazy theory with weird evidence to back it up. Here we go... I think that Taim was the one who killed Asmo, we all know that he is Shadow associated and possibly Fosaken. Now, when Asmo dies, he yells/screams NOOOOO and his scream "hung in the air" remember back when the Grey Man comes in on Rand and Min screams "her scream seemed to hang in the air" we also know that Taim was there with his weird fire weave thingy. You see the similarity between the two quotes. RJ just doesn't make coincedences like that.

 

We all know that Taim is mad when Rand refuses to work and learnfrom him. In the book where Rand takes Taim to the Farm, he says that Rand could learn from him and is mad when Rand refuses. Taking out Rand's teacher is the perfect way to get revenge and/or get Rand to learn from him. You can see the definate motive andclear evidence from the books.

 

So without furthur adu, it is quite obvious that it was Taim who killed Asmo with his interesting fire weave that is not balefire, and for either revenge or so that Rand will come to him. Or both. I do not see how anyone could ignore such clear evidence in this case.

 

Oh, and by the way, I don't really beleive this. I was just proving how pointless this is, anyone with half a set of wits and the series can come up with a disprover and a theory. I will show you another example later.

[jasonr]

Bela killed Asmo.

 

Everyone knows that RJ has a special place for Bela in his heart. Obviosly, Asmo would be extremely supprised to see a horse walk into his room, especially a horse that can channel. No one would suspect Bela, it is a clean getaway. Many people would protest and say that Bela is in Salidar (or at the WT can't remember which) but there is clear evidence in the story that Bela can run amazingly fast. When Egewene comes to Salidar in the World of Dreams, (you don't want to see my horrid spelling of Tel'Aran'Rhoid) the Aes'Sedai did not expect her to get there so fast. It was because of Bela's amazing speed. We also know that from tEotW that Bela has extreme endurance. It was not Rand that took away Bela's tiredness, she is just amazing.

 

Now motive: Bela is the incarnation of all the Light stands for, she would want to see Asmo, beening a Forsaken, dead. Proof of this- no one dislikes Bela, she is in all of the books. Everyone has disliked one major char at one point or another, but Bela has been there always, and is the only original horse still left out there. Obviosly, she will play a major role- but she already has. RJ knows that the brilliant people will come around and reallize that Bela, the main char who is unnoticed, really plays one of the biggest roles. She killed Asmo!

 

Now, to top it all of Bela can channel Saidin. Rand has felt a strong kinship to Bela since the biggining of the series. Female channelers feel a kinship to one another, so it makes sence that Saidin channelers would feel a kinship to eachother too.

 

Summery: Bela came in holding Saidin, and Asmo was infinatly supprised to see a horse waling up to him holding Saidin. Her motive is clear, she is the ultimate incarnation of the Light which I have already proved above. So naturally she would want to bump off the evil forsaken within her amazingly huge grasp. I beleive that we will be seeing many more Fosaken killed off by Bela in AMoL.

 

For those of you that did not read my earlier post, this is my next example of how anyone who has read the series (I didn't even open up the books for this one) and has an over-active imagination can easily create a ridiculos "who killed Asmo theory" I doubt that this will come to a close for a very, very long time.

[Alys Kinch]

**50 feet would be more than halfway down an interior hall in such a structure.**

 

think of it this way, when i was in school, it was a small 3-a school. back hall was 300-ish feet on the short side. idly walking that, as i was wont to do during pre-cal, took less than a 60 seconds. when writers take the time to say the man was idly thinking, idly walking, he is going to be walking for at least 2 or 3 minutes, not really watching where he is going. i don't see him only having gone 50 feet. (i could normal walk all the way across thelong side of the building to my locker and back across pregnant in three minutes or less).

 

** I am not sure if that would work. Wouldn't Asmo still be able to channel? If no... than wouldn't the wound be too instant for words? **

 

strong emotion, headaches, and the like (read unable to fully concentrate) make you loose the oneness, so no. and not necessarily instant death. but what made me think of it was the blood draining from his face. anyway, glamorized death tends to give brief lapses of time for the victim to speak one last sentiment. this one would take maybe two seconds and use the last of his strength.

 

won't bother posting to those who aren't serious.

[jasonr]

owch, I beleive that someone just shot me an evil, angry glare

[Guest Egwene]

Jasonr, same policy as Alys here, however have to correct you in one thing. The guide in my copy asks Mat if he has any device to make light! Not fire as you claim.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Mine's the same:

"Do you abide by the treaties and agreements? Do you carry iron, or instruments of music, or devices for making light?"

 

However, the Aelfinn guide words things a little differently:

"Good. You have brought no lamps, no torches, as the agreement was, and is, and ever will be. You have no iron? No instruments of music?"

[jasonr]

hmm, the aelfinn must have confused me. And I beleive I was extremely misunderstood. I do care and what I was trying to get across was that this is one of those "right and wrong" things. Obviosly, we know there is a definate right answer, but that can be persived in many different ways. There is an infinate number of possibilities that can be backed by evidence from the books. Even the crazy Bela theory can be accepted if you look very deeply. But the Bela was a far out sorta thing that was a little over the edge, I admit.

 

But the Taim one was backed by solid, very acceptable evidence, I just didn't go into full detail. I have given this matter a lot of thought. For those of you who are shooting me evil glares and wish that I would just post my opinion and have a real arguement, here it is. I believe that every theory can be disproved and you can suspect every character in the books. I don't have a solid theory right now with just one person, but I am waiting for someone to convince me.

 

At one point I did beleive the Taim one for there was a very long speach about him. I realized that every possibility I considered I could disprove one way or another. My point is, that many people here are convinced that their theory is right and they are ignoring many facts. I am trying to get people to be more open-minded and to accept other things and explore different possibilities.

[Guest cwestervelt]

We all know that Taim is mad when Rand refuses to work and learnfrom him. In the book where Rand takes Taim to the Farm' date=' he says that Rand could learn from him and is mad when Rand refuses. Taking out Rand's teacher is the perfect way to get revenge and/or get Rand to learn from him. You can see the definate motive andclear evidence from the books. [/quote']

 

I originally didn't reply to your Taim theory as there was no reason to take it any more seriously than your Bela post. Rand and Taim doen't meet until the 2nd chapter of Lord of Chaos and Asmodean is already dead. Citing events that haven't occurred as motive for the killing isn't a good way to be taken seriously.

[jasonr]

hmmm, well I guess that I should have goten my timeline set up in my head before I posted. I no longer am a supporter of Taim, he was just my more rational example. :D The Bela one is really paraniod, just something to get my point across. Ok, maybe Bela was just my weird side getting through, but you can see my point. If someone weird actually believed the Bela one, they could find supporting evidence, and everyone could disprove it. There are also messed up theories that look plausible at first, like the Taim one, but still have mistakes. Those can also be shot down like CW did.

 

Lanfear supporters could disprove Graendal, and Graendal supporters can disprove Lanfear. Like I said, I think that to solve the mistery, we have to be much more openminded with our search.

[Guest Egwene]

Jasonr, we just treated your post (mainly Bela's...lol) with the disdain it deserved. Let's face it you did sort of announce you would be mickey tacking. Also, someone else has already put Bela's case forward a few pages back

 

A lot of people here agree with you in any case, that everything we argue is theoretical. But that's the fun of it!! If we knew who did it, we wouldn't be asking the question. Even though most have their favourite theory.... everyone is secretly hoping that someone is going to dig out the minute gold nugget of WoT that will really strengthen or weaken one of the suspects.

 

Over the last 23 pages I have learned so much about the entire story... little details that I had missed, interpretations of events that just never occured to me.... I love the 'what if' game!!!! :D

 

CW and jasonr... what does 'having met' mean? Taim is mentioned on several occassions before Asmo dies. Rand of course talks to Bashere about him only a page or so earlier.

 

You see I do not disclaim him as a suspect. If someone seriously makes a case for him we will try and shoot it down of course...... but only because it's like putting a car through a series of tests. If you can defend him well enough, we will have to concede that you might have a point.....

[jasonr]

arg :D I know that the Bela diserved a lot of distain, and I reallized that I was not clear enough about my point in the beggining. I really got my beleifs from a friend who beleives solidly that Bela is the creator and that she killed Asmo. I only copied him once or twice on my thingy, the rest was my weirdness, :D but anyway, I get baffled when he tryes to persuade me, it is pure imaginative genius. Not that I think it's the right idea, but its amazing what he can do with a few words, and hand movement here or there. He would be a master at Daes'Demar (or however you spell it)

 

One thing that is fun about him also is how he can succesfully distroy all of my theories. It was when he shot down my, like, twentyth that I realized he would keep doing it until I came around to his way of thinking. It is also amazing how he is completely blind to anything disproving Bela. He is trying to stop me from having any theories, but he inspired my firmest theory yet, pritty ironic.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Egwene - I said "Rand and Taim don't meet" until afterwards. They have heard of each other but never come face to face until Lord of Chaos. That is also our first real introduction to Taim. Everything else was delivered second and third hand.

 

By the way, Bela has an alibi. She's in Salidar at the time. :)

[jasonr]

Did I not explain how Bela could get there with her amazing speed and endurance! :D Lol, my friend has an incredible explination(in fine detail) how Bela can channel Saidin (not Saidar) and traveled there. To make it very breef, he thinks that because Bela is the Creator Reincarnated (not going into his logic about that, you don't want to spend the time) so that because the creator is seen as a masculine figure Bela would channel Saidin, even though she has a felmale incarnation, kinda like the Aran'gar issue. Trust me, you don't want to go into all of his logic, it's very long and confusing.

[Guest Egwene]

lol... your buddys name wouldn't be Marak by any chance, jasonr? He is the previous poster of that theory and even has Bela in his sig.

 

CW, sorry I wasn't very clear. I was trying to consider that RJ saying 'met before' may not neccessarily mean any more than the name has come up and we have been told things about that person. In that sense Taim was known to us.

[jasonr]

No my buddy is not Marak, though I know him. He is the Division Leader of the Dark Friends on DMPSW and RolePlays Aginor. And I was also confused, he has Belal in his siggy not Bela. It makes much more sence if Belal was killed, not Bela

[jasonr]

Lol, I have seen Marak's General sort of attitute like this, and I posted then looked for Marak's post. Egewene, he was kidding. That is very Marak-like of him and he is a comedian (not litteraly, just very funny) he even wrote Survivor:the Chosen Episodes, if my general impression of him is right, then he would call my Bela thing to realistic and make something so ridiculos that you would completely forget about my transactions.

[Guest Egwene]

ok.... it's two in the morning and I am turning Bela into Belal... I give up..lol

 

See you guys another day :)

[jasonr]

I can see that you are tired, you even got that mixed up,

I am turning Bela into Belal

I beleive that you mean to say that you are turning Belal into Bela. But don't worry I did the same thing. Something about the l followed by the colon. l: hehehe, it's a weird smily-type face. For me it's the fine hour of 8:15 at night. :D Which reminds me, primetime... byebye

[Bob T Dwarf]

jason is certainly right about one thing. No matter who is put forward as a suspect, somebody can find a way to eliminate him or her.

 

What we really need is some agreed criteria for whom to consider.

 

Here's my proposal:

 

When considering a suspect, use of abilities introduced later is cause for elimination.

 

If they're dead they're out. Transmigration isn't introduced until well after Asmo's death, so the dead can't be suspects. That eliminates Aginor, Balthamel, Ba'alzamon, Bel'al, and Rahvin.

 

Male channeling is out. Rand is particularly sensitive to male channeling and would have detected any use of saidin that nearby. Inverted weaves are not introduced until after Asmo is dead. True Power is not introduced until after Asmo is dead.

 

Forsaken who haven't been introduced as themselves cannot be considered. That eliminates Demandred, Semirhage and Mesaana.

 

Can we all agree on that much?

[Paradoxic]

I've just read 10 pages of this... I really need to try and catch the posts at least once over the weekend.

 

Ok, from all of this argument I really only have 1 thing to add:

 

Anyone who could have seen the light from a bar of balefire would have heard Asmodean's cry. It was daytime, so the palace was already suffused with light. Mat and Aviendha were in a sun-lit courtyard and Rand was in a room with windows. A burst of light from down a corridor even one turn away from the courtyard would have been very easy to miss by anyone not staring the way Asmodean went.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Male channeling is out. Rand is particularly sensitive to male channeling and would have detected any use of saidin that nearby. Inverted weaves are not introduced until after Asmo is dead. True Power is not introduced until after Asmo is dead.

 

Even if inverted weaves had been introduced they would be a week point in any theory relying on them. That I know of, we have only seen the inverting the weaves as a second step. They make the weave, then they invert them. This allows them to work for maintained weaves like disguises and wards, but not for non maintained, instant effect, combat style weaves.