one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Jedimuppet]

Also' date=' how do you know that Graendel was not lying? You dont' think she'd lie to another Forsaken?

 

And assuming that's all true, how do you know she didn't make a pit stop, run into asmodean, kill him, then go on to her meeting to find Moggy not there.

 

Where are these assumptions coming from?

J[/quote']

 

Sure she'd lie to another Forsaken. But, only about something that could not be disproved. In order for her to lie about there being a planned meeting, she'd have to know that Moggy is a captive. The DO doesn't even know that and he's got better intel than anybody on the planet.

 

Now you're inventing a pitstop in Caemlyn? Why there? Since she can Travel anywhere in the blink of an eye, why not back to homebase? Why go to the one place where you know the big cheese is paranoid about attack and betrayal and risk getting nuked just because you opened a gateway?

 

Look, I think Graendel knew something went down in caemlyn and was there for her own reasons. She could easily have done this on her way to her meeting. I think your ideas on what she would lie about are naive, but we'll let that go for now. I think she made good use of the opportunity when she ran into Asmo. That's not nearly as compicated or far fetched as the thought processes you go through.

 

I think you're ignoring the obvious to support your point.

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

The Dark One's intel isn't really that good.

 

He knows more than Demandred does.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think you're ignoring the obvious to support your point.

J

 

What is obvious about Graendal being in the palace? Nothing could be less obvious. She has no obvious reason to be there' date=' given Rahvin's suspicion of the other Forsaken which is clearly established in the Prologue:

"What do you mean to come sneaking up on me, Lanfear?" he demanded roughly. He did not let go of the Power, but rather prepared several nasty surprises in case he had need. "If you want to speak with me, send an emissary, and I will decide when and where. And if."

 

Graendal would be pretty foolish to leap headfirst into that kind of hostility. So far, Graendal hasn't done anything foolish.

[Jedimuppet]

I think you're ignoring the obvious to support your point.

J

 

What is obvious about Graendal being in the palace? Nothing could be less obvious. She has no obvious reason to be there' date=' given Rahvin's suspicion of the other Forsaken which is clearly established in the Prologue:

"What do you mean to come sneaking up on me, Lanfear?" he demanded roughly. He did not let go of the Power, but rather prepared several nasty surprises in case he had need. "If you want to speak with me, send an emissary, and I will decide when and where. And if."

 

Graendal would be pretty foolish to leap headfirst into that kind of hostility. So far, Graendal hasn't done anything foolish.

 

I didn't say it was obvious that graendel did it. That's what I meant by I think you're ignoring the obvious. Look, we don't know much; let's not start trying to figure out the average air speed of an unladen african swallow.

 

I'm just saying that if you have to start getting into arguments about whether balefire could do this or that, or someone could have heard, or any of the myriad sidetracks you took; you're probably heading in a direction different than RJ intended.

 

I only made the point to say that it seems like you pick and choose things, as you did by relating my point to graendel when it was meant to relate to your technical discussions on balefire light, corners, time to think, etc.

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

The Dark One's intel isn't really that good.

 

He knows more than Demandred does.

 

Implicit in Demandred's PoV was that Demandered often knows more than the DO. Otherwise ignorance wouldn't have been a surprise.

[Guest cwestervelt]

He's facing down an intersecting hallway at right angles to the garden. He's stepped most of the way through the doorway. There's the door into the garden between them besides. How are they going to hear anything less than a full-throuted shout?

 

And you reading of the passage makes you think of the "No!" as being anything else. He just realized he is about to yell, so full-throated shout can be expected.

 

At least you've got him down a corridor so the balefire being seen issue is fixed.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Let's take both posts at once.

 

Implicit in Demandred's POV is that the DO does not have perfect information, and that the DO is sometimes better informed than Demandred and sometimes less informed.

 

In this instance the DO is better informed.

 

Think of a lightning flash. You can be down a long hall and around a corner from the nearest window, but you still perceive the lightning flash. The description of balefire visually is at least that intense.

[Jedimuppet]

Let's taker both posts at once.

 

Implicit in Demandred's POV is that the DO does not have perfect information' date=' and that the DO is sometimes better informed than Demandred and sometimes less informed.

 

In this instance the DO is better informed.

 

Think of a lightning flash. You can be down a long hall and around a corner from the nearest window, but you still perceive the lightning flash. The description of balefire visually is at least that intense.[/quote']

 

Let's take it for granted that you disagree with both of us. I kind of think you're nitpicking, which tends to bolster my theory. It might be more effective from your point of view for you to describe your theory...

 

If we're wrong, fine. Tell us what really happened...

J

[Guest Egwene]

ref: Do's knowledge - After Demandred tells the DO about Rahvin, he realises a bit further into the conversation that the DO already knows how Rahvin died. Also that he (the DO) knows more of Asmodean than he (Demandred).

 

Reading through the subsequent meeting of the forsaken, there is no reason to assume he didn't also tell them about Rahvin and Asmo. He does however tell them not to tell Sammael. So when Graendal sees Sammael it's not suprising he doesn't know about Asmo... and I don't see it as making her more of a suspect that she does know at that point.

 

On balefire... If it burns a few seconds from the pattern, maybe Asmo made it further into the room. Infact, if balefire was used their would have to have been more - that which was burned away. The 'no' still hanging in the air could be just a turn of phrase to indicate that it wasn't a great deal of time that got burned away. He was maybe shielded from the moment he entered.The door closed behind him, so the problem of the glare is solved. And only then is he balefired.

 

I do like Lanfear in this scenario... because she already had a shield on him and I assume would be able to activate it instantly....

 

...out pops another thought... if it was Lanfear, forget the balefire. Maybe all she had to do was tighten her shield on Asmo - sort of like suffocating him.

[Guest cwestervelt]

In this instance yes, the Dark One is better informed. But that is just this one instance. Don't forget, the Dark One is "Lord of the Grave" so it would be surprising if he didn't know Asmodean and Rahvin were dead. What does that say about the DO's intel gathering? Nothing. It definitely doesn't justify a statement that the Dark One has "better intel than anybody on the planet".

[Jedimuppet]

ref: Do's knowledge - After Demandred tells the DO about Rahvin' date=' he realises a bit further into the conversation that the DO already knows how Rahvin died. Also that he (the DO) knows more of Asmodean than he (Demandred).

 

Reading through the subsequent meeting of the forsaken, there is no reason to assume he didn't also tell them about Rahvin and Asmo. He does however tell them not to tell Sammael. So when Graendal sees Sammael it's not suprising he doesn't know about Asmo... and I don't see it as making her more of a suspect that she does know at that point.

 

On balefire... If it burns a few seconds from the pattern, maybe Asmo made it further into the room. Infact, if balefire was used their would have to have been more - that which was burned away. The 'no' still hanging in the air could be just a turn of phrase to indicate that it wasn't a great deal of time that got burned away. He was maybe shielded from the moment he entered.The door closed behind him, so the problem of the glare is solved. And only then is he balefired.

 

I do like Lanfear in this scenario... because she already had a shield on him and I assume would be able to activate it instantly....

 

...out pops another thought... if it was Lanfear, forget the balefire. Maybe all she had to do was tighten her shield on Asmo - sort of like suffocating him.[/quote']

 

Ok, but why now? The shield was already on; I don't think she had any control over it once she tied it off. Of course he could barely channel at all, so it wouldn't be hard for her to deal with him, but why now?

J

[Guest Egwene]

sorry, Jedi...I am not alltogether sure what you're asking when you say 'why now' :?

[Bob T Dwarf]

I'd agree with you, Egwene except for the explicit, "One step ..."

 

Try taking a single step through any doorway. You don't clear the opening enough for the door to close. A single step leaves you just about in the middle of the doorway.

 

He then freezes in shock at who he sees. "...and he stopped, the blood draining from his face."

[Guest cwestervelt]

Reading through the subsequent meeting of the forsaken, there is no reason to assume he didn't also tell them about Rahvin and Asmo. He does however tell them not to tell Sammael. So when Graendal sees Sammael it's not suprising he doesn't know about Asmo... and I don't see it as making her more of a suspect that she does know at that point.

 

I've said that. You can look it up. In fact, and I've said this too, it is more than likely that Demandred did tell Graendal and Mesaana. After all he did "tell them the rest". Finally someone else acknowledges that as a possibility for Graendal knowing Asmodean is dead. :D

[Jedimuppet]

sorry' date=' Jedi...I am not alltogether sure what you're asking when you say 'why now' :?[/quote']

 

Why would she take Asmo out now, after having him in her grasp for a really long time?

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

Exactly. Thus, she does not have to be the killer in order to know.

 

From the Demandred POV it's clear that even if the DO knows who killed Asmo, he didn't pass that information along. He just let Demandred know that Asmo was dead.

 

Given the information she had, it's understandable that she theorizes that Rand is Asmo's killer.

[Bob T Dwarf]

As for who really did it, I've already offered my best guess several pages back.

 

Given who we can positively place in the palace at the time of the murder, it has to be either Bashere, or one of his escort.

[Jedimuppet]

As for who really did it' date=' I've already offered my best guess several pages back.

 

Given who we can positively place in the palace at the time of the murder, it has to be either Bashere, or one of his escort.[/quote']

 

I'll give you points on originality with Bashere. Who do you think among Bashere's people would make Asmo react like that?

J

[Guest Egwene]

Bob, Asmo might have taken another step after that... maybe even trying to physically attack his enemy.... anyway... if the door opened outwards it could have closed easily. The whole point is that if balefire was used, there almost has to be stuff is not recounted because it got burned away.

 

Jedi, she wanted him to be Rand's teacher. Until the scene at the docks. This really would have been here first chance (*insert all the pros and cons about her escape from the Finns*)

 

CW (from now on...decided cwestvelt takes too much time to type ), which is exactly why I was making that point!!! :D

[Bob T Dwarf]

A DF that he met in his travels to find Rand.

 

He'd be very surprised to come face-to-face with a Saldaean DF in a doorway in the palace in Caemlyn. He'd be horrified because he has to know that the word is out about his working with Rand. He's just come face-to-face with the very fear he shivered about while leaving the garden. Death and delivery into the clutches of the DO.

[Guest cwestervelt]

As for who really did it' date=' I've already offered my best guess several pages back.

 

Given who we can positively place in the palace at the time of the murder, it has to be either Bashere, or one of his escort.[/quote']

 

You have yet to show anything that places Bashere's men anywhere other than in Caemlyn. Bashere does not say they came with him to the palace. He says they came with him to Caemlyn. He is not newly arrived, else he wouldn't have been getting put off by Gaebril's toadies. Your only connection to Saldaea is a man who hasn't been there in years as indicated by his own PoVs. Incidentally, based on his longing for Saldean winters, which sound like typical Borderland winters, it is likely that he hasn't been near any of the Borderlands in just as long. As a result, you cannot put Asmodean or Lanfear anywhere near the Borderlands prior to joining with the peddlar's convoy. And we already know Bashere is with Rand when Asmodean died.

 

And before you get started with the Bashere wouldn't go to the palace alone but would order his men to start searching the palace again, you need to convince me he would want to get all his men killed. Armed strangers searching a palace right after a battle is going to draw a lot of attention. They would also be seen as a threat. One person, even armed but walking alone and in the open would be seen as a curiosity, but not a significant threat.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I can only work with the words Jodan gave us. Jordan said "One step...", so I have to take it as one and only one step.

[Jedimuppet]

A DF that he met in his travels to find Rand.

 

He'd be very surprised to come face-to-face with a Saldaean DF in a doorway in the palace in Caemlyn. He'd be horrified because he has to know that the word is out about his working with Rand. He's just come face-to-face with the very fear he shivered about while leaving the garden. Death and delivery into the clutches of the DO.

 

Just some random DF? I dunno...

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

CW -

 

We're in the aftermath of a very big, very noisy and spectacular battle. There are still Aiel and Trollocs and Myrddraal in the streets. ( that's why Rand has only 5 other people with him in the palace ).

 

Are you telling us that you honestly believe that the Marshall-General of Saldaea would attempt to make his way to the palace alone? Do you honestly think his escort would allow him to go alone?

[Guest cwestervelt]

Bob' date=' Asmo might have taken another step after that... maybe even trying to physically attack his enemy.... anyway... if the door opened outwards it could have closed easily. The whole point is that if balefire was used, there almost has to be stuff is not recounted because it got burned away.

 

Jedi, she wanted him to be Rand's teacher. Until the scene at the docks. This really would have been here first chance (*insert all the pros and cons about her escape from the Finns*)

 

CW (from now on...decided cwestvelt takes too much time to type ), which is exactly why I was making that point!!! :D[/quote']

 

Slow typing.... Slow typing.... Page 8..... I said it on page 8..... 12 pages ago..... And you accuse me of slow typing...... :evil: