Why You Hatin' on Me? (asks Egwene, Nynaeve, Faile, etc)

[Guest PiotrekS]

 

The one thing that really got me about Elayne was her total indignation over Rand holding Caemlyn. How dare he think he can give her the throne that is rightfully hers!

 

Actually, that is quite justifiable on her part. If it's hers, why should he be giving it to her? If he gives it to her, it undermines her. She is seen as the Dragon's puppet. Him maintaining order is a different point - he could do that without having to give her the throne. Giving her the throne is a problem that comes solely from Rand's poorly worded statements. People often conflate the two points, but her being given the throne and him maintaining order should be seen as separate. Maintaining order in the capital and its environs is a far cry from occupying the country, and therefore being in a position to hand it over to someone else.

 

I agree that Rand's statements were poorly worded. But the fact of the matter is, he was in a position to do with Andor's throne what he wanted and he decided to give it to Elayne. Even if he left and allowed her to fight for it herself, it was he who removed the most serious obstacle she would have no chance of surmounting i.e. Rahvin and his forces. The fact of the matter is, Morgase Trakand gave Andor away to one of the Forsaken and both Elayne and Gawyn were away. Rand gained control over Andor which was based on two factors:

1) his removal of the Forsaken from power over the country;

2) his absolute military advantage over any other force in Andor.

 

Elayne indignation over the matter, although coming from a noble sentiment, is in fact pretty childish in my opinion. If Rand had decided that the throne of Andor should belong to Deylin, Arymilla, Mat or Cenn Buie, Elayne would have been able to do nothing about it.

[MasterAblar]

The thing I never got was when Rand actually said that he meant to give Elayne the throne. It seemed to me that he always thought it was hers by right and Mat had just used very bad wording when he told her.

 

Dyelin stopped the various nobles from succesfully claiming the throne, but she couldn't stop them from rebelling in the first place. Rand however, just by his very presence in Andor, forestalled any rebellion. That's why it can be rather irritating to hear Elayne complain that Rand means to give her the throne (which again I can't remember Rand actually saying), when Rand is actually the only reason why the various nobles hadn't rebelled yet during LoC. I think it's safe to say that things would have been in far worse shape by the time Elayne got back if Rand had left Caemlyn right after defeating Rahvin.

 

Of course, in my opinion the one's who are most to blame for the rebellion in Andor are (apart from the rebelling nobles themselves, and Rahvin) are the Aes Sedai. First they refused to let Elayne return to Andor at the beginning of LoC (and this is before Elayne learns of the Bowl of Winds) simply because they don't want him getting so powerful that he won't have to rely on them, then they actually rile up the nobles against Rand, and finally they kiddnapp Rand, which leaves a power vaccum in Andor, which of course the various nobles exploit.

[David Selig]

The thing I never got was when Rand actually said that he meant to give Elayne the throne. It seemed to me that he always thought it was hers by right and Mat had just used very bad wording when he told her.

IIRC Mat never told Eayne that, it was Egwene, and in fairness to her, Rand did tell her exactly that earlier "I mean to give Elayne the Lion Throne and the Sun Throne." (LOC, ch. 18)

[MasterAblar]

The thing I never got was when Rand actually said that he meant to give Elayne the throne. It seemed to me that he always thought it was hers by right and Mat had just used very bad wording when he told her.

IIRC Mat never told Eayne that, it was Egwene, and in fairness to her, Rand did tell her exactly that earlier "I mean to give Elayne the Lion Throne and the Sun Throne." (LOC, ch. 18)

 

You're right, it was Egwene who told her. She also tells Elayne that she didn't think Rand meant it that way, which I think is correct. When Rand first meets Bashere, he tells him that as Elayne was the daughter heir, she is queen now, so it seems to me that he believes Elayne has a right to the throne. I really think it is just a misunderstanding (not that those are uncommon in this series).

[Suttree]

Further, not every monarch has the same facilities available to them as Andor has.

 

Andor as one of the richest cities in Randland is fairly unique in money, natural resources at it's disposal and an ability to quickly manufacture the needed weapons. Most other places would not be able to do the same.

[Kahsm]

She does kinda take it from him... I mean she wins the contest from WITHIN the palace... not like she went to some Trakand estates and earned her crown from there. I'm sure if Rand were not "keeping order" it wouldn't have been so easy for her to stride back into the palace. Little hypocritical?

[Suttree]

She does kinda take it from him... I mean she wins the contest from WITHIN the palace... not like she went to some Trakand estates and earned her crown from there. I'm sure if Rand were not "keeping order" it wouldn't have been so easy for her to stride back into the palace. Little hypocritical?

 

The palace is not Andor. Without the votes it matters little who occupies it...

[Kahsm]

She does kinda take it from him... I mean she wins the contest from WITHIN the palace... not like she went to some Trakand estates and earned her crown from there. I'm sure if Rand were not "keeping order" it wouldn't have been so easy for her to stride back into the palace. Little hypocritical?

 

The palace is not Andor. Without the votes it matters little who occupies it...

 

Well, the throne is in the palace, which technically is what Rand said he'd give her...

[Suttree]

She does kinda take it from him... I mean she wins the contest from WITHIN the palace... not like she went to some Trakand estates and earned her crown from there. I'm sure if Rand were not "keeping order" it wouldn't have been so easy for her to stride back into the palace. Little hypocritical?

 

The palace is not Andor. Without the votes it matters little who occupies it...

 

Well, the throne is in the palace, which technically is what Rand said he'd give her...

 

LOL now you're just being silly....

[Guest PiotrekS]

The palace is not everything, but it is a huge advantage and a head start Elayne had over other pretendents. She had access not only to the palace but controlled the capital as well, had city guards, had palace bureaucracy (Mr. Norry and Ms. Harfor were very helpful, it is as though you fight for power and have some important ministers of previous government in your team). Trade, wealth and decision-making in Andor concentrated in Caemlyn and she could just walk in only because Rand made it possible for her. She was seen as the person who was in the palace and her opponents were forced to besiege her in Caemlyn.

 

What is most important, without Rand Elayne would have zero chance of regaining power in Andor from Rahvin and Trakand days on the Lion Throne would be over after one queen. Morgase was brutally used by the Forsaken, but the cold fact is she gave the country away, even of involuntarily, and Elayne should be very happy anybody wants to see her on the throne at all.

[Suttree]

The palace is not everything, but it is a huge advantage and a head start Elayne had over other pretendents. She had access not only to the palace but controlled the capital as well, had city guards, had palace bureaucracy (Mr. Norry and Ms. Harfor were very helpful, it is as though you fight for power and have some important ministers of previous government in your team). Trade, wealth and decision-making in Andor concentrated in Caemlyn and she could just walk in only because Rand made it possible for her. She was seen as the person who was in the palace and her opponents were forced to besiege her in Caemlyn.

 

No one is arguing that Rand didn't make things easier and do an admirable job at policing the city for a time. What he didn't do, as others have put forth is hand her the throne. He left, Dyelin stepped in as regent and used her own armsmen to keep other claimants in order. At that point Elayne put forth a claim, built up a force from just about scratch to protect/hold the city(without using Rand's men), and went about winning the needed votes from the other houses.

 

It is made very clear in text that if Elayne had been seen to except the title from Rand, Dyelin would not have thrown her support and civil war would have ensued. In addition we have the scene where Bashere explains why Elayne can not use Rand's forces to hold the city. Elayne went about earning all of that for herself. Bottom line is the votes are what matter. If a claimant held the palace but did not have the necessary votes it would all be for naught. She owes a debt to Rand for liberating Andor from Rhavin(in terms of Morgase it's very harsh to blame anyone under compulsion for losing the city), but he did not hand her the throne.

[Guest PiotrekS]

The palace is not everything, but it is a huge advantage and a head start Elayne had over other pretendents. She had access not only to the palace but controlled the capital as well, had city guards, had palace bureaucracy (Mr. Norry and Ms. Harfor were very helpful, it is as though you fight for power and have some important ministers of previous government in your team). Trade, wealth and decision-making in Andor concentrated in Caemlyn and she could just walk in only because Rand made it possible for her. She was seen as the person who was in the palace and her opponents were forced to besiege her in Caemlyn.

 

No one is arguing that Rand didn't make things easier and do an admirable job at policing the city for a time. What he didn't do, as others have put forth is hand her the throne. He left, Dyelin stepped in as regent and used her own armsmen to keep other claimants in order. At that point Elayne put forth a claim, built up a force from just about scratch to protect/hold the city(without using Rand's men), and went about winning the needed votes from the other houses.

 

It is made very clear in text that if Elayne had been seen to except the title from Rand, Dyelin would not have thrown her support and civil war would have ensued. In addition we have the scene where Bashere explains why Elayne can not use Rand's forces to hold the city. Elayne went about earning all of that for herself. Bottom line is the votes are what matter. If a claimant held the palace but did not have the necessary votes it would all be for naught. She owes a debt to Rand for liberating Andor from Rhavin(in terms of Morgase it's very harsh to blame anyone under compulsion for losing the city), but he did not hand her the throne.

 

I see your point. What is irritating is that Elayne herself does not acknowledge that Rand made it easier for her. More - he made it possible for her in the first place.

 

I know that blaming Morgase is harsh in human terms, but looking at it from the point of view of average Andormen, the fact is she messed up. Of course everybody who wasn't a strong channeler would fall prey to Rahvin's tricks just as easily, but still, that's one of the reasons people looked up to kings, queens and leaders in general- expecing them to overcome difficulties which an average person wouldn't be able to. Andor suffered under Morgase and she made terrible decisions - she can't be blamed for that, true, but her record is nonetheless stained. It isn't fair but what is?

 

The point is that faced with Rahvin, Andor didn't need its rightful queen, who was just as entertaining a pawn for the Forsaken as can be. Andor needed the Dragon Reborn to remove the Forsaken. I find it annoying that Elayne takes for granted the things that Rand (with Nynaeve's help) and the Aiel did for Andor and on the other hand does not reflect on the fact that for all their rights, the Trakands have done almost nothing for their country since Rahvin came and before Elayne arrived.

[Rose]

Regarding that whole "giving Andor to Elayne" thing, I've always thought it was a very poor choice of words stemming from ignorance of the Andoran culture on Rand's part. I remember gnashing my teeth while reading it and thinking "Really, Rand? Did you really have to say it like that?". Even if he had effectively given her the throne, if he had her best interests in mind, which he did, he should have made it appear as much as possible as if it wasn't what he was doing. Elayne is right in saying that this made things harder for her in a way, because she had to work so hard to make sure everybody knew she was claiming the throne of her own right. Not to say that Rand didn't help. Of course he did. Without him, there wouldn't be a lion throne to claim in the first place. But it's all about how it looks to people, and he made it look pretty bad for Elayne. He didn't do it on purpose of course. But a trifle of arrogance and a touche of ignorance can do a lot of damage sometimes.

[SuperFade]

But a trifle of arrogance and a touche of ignorance can do a lot of damage sometimes.

 

This is a problem Elayne has in spades as well, ya know.

[Guest PiotrekS]

But a trifle of arrogance and a touche of ignorance can do a lot of damage sometimes.

 

This is a problem Elayne has in spades as well, ya know.

 

Well, he still hasn't integrated LTT at this moment. Farmboys are hardly the most sophisticated diplomats. He was doing remarkably well considering the circumstances. That's true his choice of words wasn't the best, but his subsequent actions showed he did not intend to control Andor's politics. He told Deylin and others so.

 

On the other hand, Elayne, the educated and intelligent Daughter-Heir and Aes Sedai in training, should look at things a little more deeply than "HOW DARE HE SAY HE GAVE ME THE THRONE. IT IS MINE MINE MINE BY RIGHT!" The fact is Rand had to save Andor from the deep, deep trouble - an act that neither Morgase, nor Elayne had even a slightest chance of accomplishing without his help. Moreover, it was their responsibility, not his. I think Elayne should have acknowledged this fact, which does in no way diminish her own accomplishements during the Succesion and her rights to the throne.

[Mr Ares]

 

The one thing that really got me about Elayne was her total indignation over Rand holding Caemlyn. How dare he think he can give her the throne that is rightfully hers!

 

Actually, that is quite justifiable on her part. If it's hers, why should he be giving it to her? If he gives it to her, it undermines her. She is seen as the Dragon's puppet. Him maintaining order is a different point - he could do that without having to give her the throne. Giving her the throne is a problem that comes solely from Rand's poorly worded statements. People often conflate the two points, but her being given the throne and him maintaining order should be seen as separate. Maintaining order in the capital and its environs is a far cry from occupying the country, and therefore being in a position to hand it over to someone else.

 

I agree that Rand's statements were poorly worded. But the fact of the matter is, he was in a position to do with Andor's throne what he wanted and he decided to give it to Elayne. Even if he left and allowed her to fight for it herself, it was he who removed the most serious obstacle she would have no chance of surmounting i.e. Rahvin and his forces. The fact of the matter is, Morgase Trakand gave Andor away to one of the Forsaken and both Elayne and Gawyn were away. Rand gained control over Andor which was based on two factors:

1) his removal of the Forsaken from power over the country;

2) his absolute military advantage over any other force in Andor.

 

Elayne indignation over the matter, although coming from a noble sentiment, is in fact pretty childish in my opinion. If Rand had decided that the throne of Andor should belong to Deylin, Arymilla, Mat or Cenn Buie, Elayne would have been able to do nothing about it.

Rand's ability to do as he wished with the throne is highly dubious. The nobles and commoners both have expressed the view that they won't sit by and let Rand do as he wills. Yes, things were peaceable for a time, but had Rand tried to "give" the throne away, it would have caused a lot of fighting - and while Rand has the military resources to crush any rebellion, he also has to keep his eye on TG. Yes, Rand made it easier for her to claim the throne by removing Rahvin - his presence would have made things much harder for her, but not impossible. However, he also caused her problems. Annoyance is justified. I also think it's a little unfair to say Morgase give Andor to Rahvin - he took it from her, against her will.

[Suttree]

On the other hand, Elayne, the educated and intelligent Daughter-Heir and Aes Sedai in training, should look at things a little more deeply than "HOW DARE HE SAY HE GAVE ME THE THRONE. IT IS MINE MINE MINE BY RIGHT!"

 

You're missing the point, you need to look at it from a cultural perspective...

 

PoD, Ch. 28

 

"You’ve come to accept the throne from the Dragon Reborn, then?”

 

“I claim the throne by my own right, Dyelin, with my own hand. The Lion Throne is no bauble to be accepted from a man.” Dyelin nodded, as at self-evident truth. Which it was, to any Andoran. “How do you stand, Dyelin? With Trakand, or against? I have heard your name often on my way here.”

 

“Since you claim the throne by your own right, with.”

[Guest PiotrekS]

 

The one thing that really got me about Elayne was her total indignation over Rand holding Caemlyn. How dare he think he can give her the throne that is rightfully hers!

 

Actually, that is quite justifiable on her part. If it's hers, why should he be giving it to her? If he gives it to her, it undermines her. She is seen as the Dragon's puppet. Him maintaining order is a different point - he could do that without having to give her the throne. Giving her the throne is a problem that comes solely from Rand's poorly worded statements. People often conflate the two points, but her being given the throne and him maintaining order should be seen as separate. Maintaining order in the capital and its environs is a far cry from occupying the country, and therefore being in a position to hand it over to someone else.

 

I agree that Rand's statements were poorly worded. But the fact of the matter is, he was in a position to do with Andor's throne what he wanted and he decided to give it to Elayne. Even if he left and allowed her to fight for it herself, it was he who removed the most serious obstacle she would have no chance of surmounting i.e. Rahvin and his forces. The fact of the matter is, Morgase Trakand gave Andor away to one of the Forsaken and both Elayne and Gawyn were away. Rand gained control over Andor which was based on two factors:

1) his removal of the Forsaken from power over the country;

2) his absolute military advantage over any other force in Andor.

 

Elayne indignation over the matter, although coming from a noble sentiment, is in fact pretty childish in my opinion. If Rand had decided that the throne of Andor should belong to Deylin, Arymilla, Mat or Cenn Buie, Elayne would have been able to do nothing about it.

Rand's ability to do as he wished with the throne is highly dubious. The nobles and commoners both have expressed the view that they won't sit by and let Rand do as he wills. Yes, things were peaceable for a time, but had Rand tried to "give" the throne away, it would have caused a lot of fighting - and while Rand has the military resources to crush any rebellion, he also has to keep his eye on TG. Yes, Rand made it easier for her to claim the throne by removing Rahvin - his presence would have made things much harder for her, but not impossible. However, he also caused her problems. Annoyance is justified. I also think it's a little unfair to say Morgase give Andor to Rahvin - he took it from her, against her will.

 

I think it was much more likely Rand would have hardly any problems with most of Andorans had he decided to alter Andor's traditions and take the throne or give it to somebody, than that Elayne or Morgase would be able to free Andor from Rahvin's grip. Rand needed a lot of luck to do it, while Morgase and Elayne simply did not have adequate resources, both on channeling and military fronts.

 

Even assuming Deylin and some other nobles with backbones would rebel against Rand, he would have no problems with crushing them since they don't have any large regular army units and even if they had, they would be no match for Rand's elite forces. Not to mention the channeling. Arymilla and her sort would lick Rand's boots and as we have seen, commoners don't care which noble actually sits on the throne as much as said nobles like to think. Morgase wasn't unequivocally loved by Andorans even in EotW.

 

Saying Morgase gave Andor to Rahvin is of course unfair - I made this statement consiously. That's how it looks for most of the people in the nation. Even were she publicly to announce she was turned into a puppet by the Forsaken, that would hardly improve her standing with the people of Andor. Of course it is unfair, but she still had to pay the price for something that wasn't her fault. It is often like that, life isn't fair.

 

On the other hand, Elayne, the educated and intelligent Daughter-Heir and Aes Sedai in training, should look at things a little more deeply than "HOW DARE HE SAY HE GAVE ME THE THRONE. IT IS MINE MINE MINE BY RIGHT!"

 

You're missing the point, you need to look at it from a cultural perspective...

 

PoD, Ch. 28

 

"You’ve come to accept the throne from the Dragon Reborn, then?”

 

“I claim the throne by my own right, Dyelin, with my own hand. The Lion Throne is no bauble to be accepted from a man.” Dyelin nodded, as at self-evident truth. Which it was, to any Andoran. “How do you stand, Dyelin? With Trakand, or against? I have heard your name often on my way here.”

 

“Since you claim the throne by your own right, with.”

 

I get the cultural perspective. I said I was irritated by Elayne's knee-jerk reaction and have never denied it had deep cultural roots.

 

I'll say it again, in my opinion the time for national pride, big words and acts of defiance was when Rahvin was lounging on the Lion Throne. Both Morgase and Elayne (edit: and of course Gawyn) somehow missed the right moment and let Rand do the most difficult job. It might not even be their fault, but it's the hard reality. Now it looks just a little pathetic, Elayne and Deylin are both playing the roles of fiercely independent and liberty loving patriots, but when their country faced a biggest threat they were somewhere else.Maybe not their fault, but hard fact nonetheless.

 

Nevertheless, I agree with you and other posters that Rand should have avoided any words like "giving the throne to Elayne" because of Andoran cultural sensitivities.

[Eht Slat Meit]

So Mat can hardly be praised for something which is only of dubious benefit to the Light's efforts at TG.

 

Dubious benefit? The single greatest power on the open seas is "dubious" benefit? Are you thinking in terms of tactics or anything besides a few replaceable people?

 

I'm not sure why you feel the Sea Folk need to be "trained" other than to ensure their loyalty.I'm not sure why you think damane don't need to be trained

 

I'm not sure why you think someone needs to be a damane to be skilled and useful. Are you roleplaying a Seanchan here, and feel you must ignore the obvious like say... the Wise Ones, the Aiel, the Kin, etc? Do they all need to be made damane to be useful at TG?

 

Then that's why you don't bother with a ta'veren. Most people who deal with the Sea Folk manage just fine without one.

 

Are we talking about the same Sea Folk whose bargaining won unprecedented land concessions in Andor, and have a reputation of being traders of such surpassed skill that one cannot expect to come to advantage in a trade with one, and that even the Aes Sedai are believed to come up short against them and mocked in jokes for it?

 

Aludra designed and built the weapons, Mat was simply the person who saw their battlefield potential. If you show those same weapons to any other general worth his salt, they'll see the benefits. Which is no different to showing them to Elayne and her seeing the benefits. Both Elayne and Mat can be easily replaced in this situation, save for the trust they have built up between themselves and Aludra. Elayne is trustowrthy and can provide facilities. Mat is trustworthy and can demonstrate their battlefield potential. Really, how are they any different?

 

The difference here is a matter of access. Aludra, by herself, little more than a commoner claiming to be from a dead guild of Illuminators, has no access to the resources Mat does. By resources, I include people. How's she going to get access to -any- of those people? You answered this, but without explanation...

 

Or Agelmar Jagad, Gareth Bryne, Davram Bashere, Rodel ituralde, and probably a lot of others as well (I don't think it's only Great Captains who could see the benefits of such a weapon). As long as she can show it to someone who will see the potential (and it was her good fortune to meet with Mat, a man who could most definitely see their potential, making the whole thing much easier than it might otherwise have been.

 

How many of those can she legitimately get access to in war-time? Bashere is running the dragonsworn armies, Bryne's doing the same for the WT, Ituralde is running a guerilla campaign against the Seanchan and nobody knows his whereabouts, Jagad is busying getting wrecked by the trolloc invasion. Yes, there are other kings and queens....

 

As for those other routes to the top, they are lengthy processes, require stability in the kingdom of choice, because the monarch in question has other things to do right now (TG, chaos, etc) than hear petitions from commoners. By the time she actually gets anything done, she'll either be dead when all hell breaks loose from the Bore or simply a relic of the TG.

 

At which point her dragons become absolutely worthless in the books for anything other than revolutionizing warfare. Which isn't a small thing, but fame's not what Aludra is after. Nor is the TG, but her bargain with Mat gives her something to her own ends. What other leader is guaranteed to negotiate in good faith with her, even if she could get access to them? Yeah, sorry little sparkler girl, we have other priorities than helping you with your Seanchan problem. But we'll take your world-breaking weapons anyway! Maybe later...

 

Note, though, that while Mat makes things easier he does not make them possible.

 

Being ta'veren doesn't make things "easier" by any stretch of the imagination. That purpose of it is to make acquiring that which he needs possible. A somewhat general need, but the dragons are included in that.

 

 

It's a shame that's not what I was doing, else you might have had a point. As it is, I was simply pointing out that Elayne's achievements (or lack of) over a given period are in line with the achievements (or lack of) or most other major characters over the same period. There is a lot of time over those books spent laying the groundwork for what is to come, and that is not unimportant. Why single out Elayne?

 

I'm not singling out Elayne for anything; that is solely your need to defend her talking. I'm simply establishing hierarchy, and you perceive being placed lower in a hierarchy as "being singled out" or an attack on Elayne, then that is a problem with your perception. I've already established that Mat's role in this isn't worth anywhere near as much as Aludra's either. If you disagree with my arguments on why his role is slightly greater than Elayne's, then feel free to do so, but don't expect that aggrieved complaint that I'm "singling Elayne" out when I am doing NO such thing to get you any purchase on the argument.

 

If you want to make a point that Aludra should be second to the Dragon Reborn for her role, then go for it, but I'm not going to make excuses or cheap rationale for Elayne or Mat.

[MasterAblar]

I think that, as Rand was talking to Egwene when he said he wanted to "give" the Lion Throne to Elayne, he probably didn't feel the need to be politically correct. He probably didn't expect Egwene to tell Elayne what he had said word for word. At the time there was no real giving of the throne to be done as there was no rebellion yet. However, it was unlikely to remain like that if Rand left. Which means that Rand's presence in Andor protected Elayne's throne. He wasn't so much giving her the throne (as it was already hers), as he was stopping others from trying to take it. He just worded it badly, even though it comes back to the same in the end. But then he was in a casual conversation with Egwene when he said that, and like she said later, he probably didn't mean it that way.

 

How many of those can she legitimately get access to in war-time? Bashere is running the dragonsworn armies, Bryne's doing the same for the WT, Ituralde is running a guerilla campaign against the Seanchan and nobody knows his whereabouts, Jagad is busying getting wrecked by the trolloc invasion. Yes, there are other kings and queens....

 

Actually, Jagad is busy looking for Rand.

[Rose]

But a trifle of arrogance and a touche of ignorance can do a lot of damage sometimes.

 

This is a problem Elayne has in spades as well, ya know.

 

That's a problem about everyone in WoT has. Not knowing and acting/speaking without thinking things through - or seeing them through the other person's perspective. I was annoyed by Elayne's reaction too. I'm just saying that it's understandable.

[Eht Slat Meit]

I think that, as Rand was talking to Egwene when he said he wanted to "give" the Lion Throne to Elayne, he probably didn't feel the need to be politically correct. He probably didn't expect Egwene to tell Elayne what he had said word for word. At the time there was no real giving of the throne to be done as there was no rebellion yet. However, it was unlikely to remain like that if Rand left. Which means that Rand's presence in Andor protected Elayne's throne. He wasn't so much giving her the throne (as it was already hers), as he was stopping others from trying to take it. He just worded it badly, even though it comes back to the same in the end. But then he was in a casual conversation with Egwene when he said that, and like she said later, he probably didn't mean it that way.

 

Rand, Mat and the others have no real reason to know or understand the meaning of the throne in Andor, short of having it explicitly made clear to them by someone like Moiraine. Personally, I'm wondering just how detailed Moiraine's talks with Rand were and if she felt the need to explain to a Two Rivers lad just what cultural values about the throne are standard to a -normal- loyal Andoran. It's not like she could have foreseen every scenario, no matter how skilled she is at pulling strings and playing the Great Game.

 

Easy enough to overlook, and probably something else to chalk up to Morgase's rule.

[MasterAblar]

I think that, as Rand was talking to Egwene when he said he wanted to "give" the Lion Throne to Elayne, he probably didn't feel the need to be politically correct. He probably didn't expect Egwene to tell Elayne what he had said word for word. At the time there was no real giving of the throne to be done as there was no rebellion yet. However, it was unlikely to remain like that if Rand left. Which means that Rand's presence in Andor protected Elayne's throne. He wasn't so much giving her the throne (as it was already hers), as he was stopping others from trying to take it. He just worded it badly, even though it comes back to the same in the end. But then he was in a casual conversation with Egwene when he said that, and like she said later, he probably didn't mean it that way.

 

Rand, Mat and the others have no real reason to know or understand the meaning of the throne in Andor, short of having it explicitly made clear to them by someone like Moiraine. Personally, I'm wondering just how detailed Moiraine's talks with Rand were and if she felt the need to explain to a Two Rivers lad just what cultural values about the throne are standard to a -normal- loyal Andoran. It's not like she could have foreseen every scenario, no matter how skilled she is at pulling strings and playing the Great Game.

 

Easy enough to overlook, and probably something else to chalk up to Morgase's rule.

 

I doubt it's only in Andor that being given a throne by an outsider is disliked by that nation's population. I'm sure Rand realized that. I don't remember him saying that he was giving Elayne the throne in front of other andoran nobles.

 

Of course people might see it that way whether he says it or not, even though as long as there is no rebellion, there is no giving of the throne to be done. But there's really nothing he can do about that short of leaving Andor to choose it's own sovereign, which isn't something he's about to do.

[Suttree]

I doubt it's only in Andor that being given a throne by an outsider is disliked by that nation's population. I'm sure Rand realized that. I don't remember him saying that he was giving Elayne the throne in front of other andoran nobles.

 

He did and it likely made things more difficult...

 

LoC

"A reward offered for news of Elayne," Ellorien said flatly, her face becoming even stonier, "who is to be made queen now that Morgase is dead."

 

But there's really nothing he can do about that short of leaving Andor to choose it's own sovereign, which isn't something he's about to do.

 

But that's exactly what he did. He left, Dyelin became regent and then Elayne held the city and went about earning the needed votes.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I doubt it's only in Andor that being given a throne by an outsider is disliked by that nation's population. I'm sure Rand realized that. I don't remember him saying that he was giving Elayne the throne in front of other andoran nobles.

 

He did and it likely made things more difficult...

 

LoC

"A reward offered for news of Elayne," Ellorien said flatly, her face becoming even stonier, "who is to be made queen now that Morgase is dead."

 

But there's really nothing he can do about that short of leaving Andor to choose it's own sovereign, which isn't something he's about to do.

 

But that's exactly what he did. He left, Dyelin became regent and then Elayne held the city and went about earning the needed votes.

 

Wasn't Elayne to become queen according to Andor's own laws?