A new mystery to solve...

[Bob T Dwarf]

In the Prologue for "Crossroads of Twilight" we get one of only two POV's for Bashere. At the very end of the POV, he does something rather strange.

 

Bashere nodded. The price of failure often was death. Two to search, and how many to silence them? How many remained, and how long before they tried again? Worst of all, who was behind it? The White Tower? The Forsaken? It seemed a decision had been reached for him.

 

No one except Tumad was close enough to hear him, but he spoke softly anyway and chose his words cautiosly. Sometimes the price of carelessness was death, too. "You know where to find the man who came to me yesterday? Find him, and tell him I agree, but there will be a few more than we talked about."

 

What man?

To what is Bashere agreeing?

A few more of what or who?

 

Has anybody seen anything in the rest of CoT or KoD to answer those questions?

[Guest Majsju]

I always took it as him accepting to follow Logain and the others to Rand, since that's where he shows up next time we see him.

 

Or possibly that he sent his wife and a few others away to somewhere safe, while he went looking for Rand, though that seems a bit less likely.

[SinisterDeath]

What was the context of the 'who did what and why'

the attack on rand?

Bah, I gotta re-read these books again.. I'll probably do it about 3 months prior to kod being released. *Memories getting sketchy*

[Bob T Dwarf]

It was the ransacking of his tent that his wife interrupted. She cut one of the ransackers and the other cut her. The bodies of two strange men werre found just beyond the edge of the camp. Each had been killed by one precise stab of a very narrow blade.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Maj -

 

Such a simple explanation seems improbable to me. That's an awful lot of setup for such a throwaway ending. 22 plus pages in my edition.

 

Also, the Prologue is where Jordan always gives us the juicy stuff, setting up what is going to follow.

 

Sending the women to safety or simply going off to find Rand just doesn't fit.

 

But, so far, I can't think of anything else that does either.

[cannon]

Bashere nodded. The price of failure often was death. Two to search, and how many to silence them? How many remained, and how long before they tried again? Worst of all, who was behind it? The White Tower? The Forsaken? It seemed a decision had been reached for him.

 

This first part here is still dealing with the ransacking. The "two to search" were those who searched his tent, and he wonders how many others were with them in order to kill them if they failed (which they did). Then he wonders how soon it will happen again and who was behind it.

 

What the searchers were looking for were the intact seals. Later in the book (chapter 24) Bashere appears with Logain and you discover that besides the attack on Dobraine and the ransacking for Bashere's tent, Rand's quarters have also been searched. In fact, Rand says as much as they were looking for the seals.

 

Bashere's uncertainty over who was looking for the seals, what he was still doing in Caemlyn, and probably a disinterest in meeting with Tenobia just yet, most likely led him to agree to journeying with Logain.

 

The second paragraph is almost certainly about Logain. As Majsju says, it is the very next time we see him, and I think we can safely conclude that's what the message was about.

 

Such a simple explanation seems improbable to me. That's an awful lot of setup for such a throwaway ending. 22 plus pages in my edition.

 

I disagree. Simple explanations are often the correct ones. And that section still gives us a lot of information, and certainly a number of questions. Who was looking for the seals?

[Guest Majsju]

Maj -

 

Such a simple explanation seems improbable to me. That's an awful lot of setup for such a throwaway ending. 22 plus pages in my edition.

 

Also, the Prologue is where Jordan always gives us the juicy stuff, setting up what is going to follow.

 

So, Bashere first met up with some secret dude, and did something super-secret that we still haven't heard about. Then, from out of the blue another guy, namely Logain would seek him out to reach another agreement which just happens to fit "a few more", as Bashere brought around 100 Saldeans with him.?

 

Oh yes, that is very likely....Err

 

As for setting up what is going to come, I suggest you reread KOD, as you apparently missed that bashere and Logain coming to Rand does indeed lead to some quite interesting things.

 

But then, of course Mrs bashere could have been sent off to do something way more interesting for the story than blasting 100K trollocs to oblivion, Rand turning into Stmupy, and Semirhage becoming cadsuanes [naughty word for female dog]. I mean, of course Mrs Bashere going into hiding would top that, right?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Everybody on the Dark side of the ledger is looking for the seals. Even Fain. They're a very high-priority item.

 

What was being searched for was never the question. And, since so many of the Dark factions all want to find them, it's useless to try to figure out which group was behind this particular attempt.

 

No, the question is what's going on in addition. If it were just rejoining Rand, I doubt Jordan would have phrased the decision to do so in such a mysterious manner.

 

There was nothing inherent in the ransaking that constituted a decision being reached for him. He'd already allied himself with Rand. He'd already agreed to assist in whatever way he could.

 

Nor, was there anything new in what happened to instill any hightened sense of caution. He already knew that the Forsaken and the White Tower both would do anything they could to find Rand and cause problems.

 

So, why the sense of having his hand forced? Why the extreme caution in making sure that Tuman was the only one who knew what he intended?

[Cybertrolloc]

If it were just rejoining Rand' date=' I doubt Jordan would have phrased the decision to do so in such a mysterious manner.[/quote']

I'm thinking of one of your posts from yesterday, so can't help :lol: Go back a few pages, there's the discussion between Bashere and the "mysterious man," and his identity isn't really in doubt when you look at the recent Black Tower scenes (before the end of CoT prologue).

[Guest Majsju]

There was nothing inherent in the ransaking that constituted a decision being reached for him. He'd already allied himself with Rand. He'd already agreed to assist in whatever way he could.

 

Nor, was there anything new in what happened to instill any hightened sense of caution. He already knew that the Forsaken and the White Tower both would do anything they could to find Rand and cause problems.

 

So, why the sense of having his hand forced? Why the extreme caution in making sure that Tuman was the only one who knew what he intended?

 

If it had only been rejoining Rand, not a big deal. But there are a few things about the way it is done. Or rather, one little thing - Logain. At this point it is not common knowledge that logain is healed, and has joined the BT. Even Rand expresses surprise, and possibly a little suspicion, though that might just be the madness kicking in, when Logain and the others show up at the mansion.

 

So, it is quite understandable that bashere doesn't feel like he should let the entire world know that "Hey, I'm going to go and hang with rand. And guess what, I'm having some Asha'man take me there, one of them is logain. That's right, the same Logain who used to be a false dragon and started a biggole war, he can channel again. but he's good now, promise."

 

And of course, logain let taim believe he was going to go out recruiting, I think Taim might have flat out refused Logain to leave the BT if he had known what Logain actually was up to.

 

In case you haven't noticed, one of the themes in WOT is that noone tells anyone else more than what's absolutely necessary, and sometimes not even that much.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Sorry, but I don't see what either of you are getting at.

 

First, the only people Bashere speaks with are Bael, Tuman, and his own wife.

 

Second, they were open enough about what they were doing that four Warders to Sisters who were with Rand tagged along. Since he already suspects that the White Tower might have had something to do with what happened to his wife, he wouldn't be approaching or allowing anybody's Warders if using Logain to get him to Rand was such a big secret.

 

So, again, why is he so careful and cautious and secretive with what he says to Tuman?

[Guest Majsju]

No one except Tumad was close enough to hear him, but he spoke softly anyway and chose his words cautiosly. Sometimes the price of carelessness was death, too. "You know where to find the man who came to me yesterday? Find him, and tell him I agree, but there will be a few more than we talked about."

 

Read the bolded part again. And then again. And then ponder if it is Tuman he is trying to keep unaware of what he is doing, or if he maybe just possibly might be taking some extra care to make damn sure noone except the one person supposed to recieve the message, namely Tuman, hears a word more than he or she is supposed to hear.

 

Since he is sending Tuman to deliver the message, it is quite obvious that Tuman knows who he is leaving the message to, even if he doesn't know exactly what Bashere is agreeing with.

 

As for the warders, of course there is no possibility Bashere or Logain sent someone to approach them in secret, knowing that those warders would be his best way to actually find rand. I mean, everyone knows warders will blabber openly about anything told to them in secret, we've seen that all the time, right?

 

But hey, maybe what Bashere actually did was talking to a guy who could make wings, and had wings made for Deira and a few others, who then flew to the Land of Madmen to keep the seal safe from darkfriends...Fits your demands for everything to be a huge mystery instead of a logical explanation, right :lol:

[cannon]

So, why the sense of having his hand forced? Why the extreme caution in making sure that Tuman was the only one who knew what he intended?

 

As for having his hand forced, I think he felt threatened and was unsure what they were looking for or whether or not he'd be able to stop them at all. He made a real point of telling Rand about the incident in chapter 24, so clearly it was important to him.

 

Logain had likely come to Bashere and asked him to lead Logain to Rand. So now Bashere has a reason to go to Rand himself, and he feels that circumstances have forced his hand. He wants to go to Rand, Logain wants Bashere to take him to Rand, and he pretty much has to agree to do so because Logain will follow him anyway.

 

As for the caution, he no longer feels safe or in control within his own camp. Or perhaps he's ALWAYS this cautious. As you point out, we have precious few POVs from Bashere, so perhaps this is merely to illustrate a facet of his personality.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Maj, you really work at being obtuse don't you?

 

My point is, Bashere is already fearful that the White Tower had something to do with what happened to his wife. Warders -> Aes Sedai -> White Tower.

 

So, sure, the best military mind in the area, the man with the best appreciation of all the social and political factors at work, rushes right out and starts recruiting Warders, who may, in fact, be the very agents responsible for the ransacking of his tent and injury to his wife, for a super-secret trip to find Rand. Yup, that makes lots of sense.

 

As cannon points out, Bashere is obviously wary of his own troops. It's highly likely that the erstwhile thieves had some inside help getting into camp and getting into his tent.

 

But, of course, since he can't trust his own troops anymore, he's immediately eager to trust the Warders to Aes Sedai of unknown reliability to keep secret from the White Tower the very thing he is trying to keep secret from everyone.

 

OK, then. Thanks, Maj. Glad you cleared that up for me. It was all about going to find Rand. And, using Warders to do so, because obviously if you use Warders to find him the White Tower will have no way to find out what's going on. Good plan. Now we have a practical example of why Bashere is regarded as one of the Great Captains.

[Guest Majsju]

You don't think Bashere just might have noticed that the Aes sedai hanging out with Rand is not exactly following the orders issued by Elaida anymore? Rand's most trusted general has not been informed that there are Aes Sedai who actually are opposing Elaida?

 

And it's not like he had to tell the warders exactly why he was seeking out Rand. Being the commander of rand's private army, it kinda makes sense that he would want to meet up with Rand, without any more questions asked.

[Kaznen]

Yeah, Bashere knows that the Aes Sedai with Rand are not working for the tower or rebels.

 

I think his orders from Rand were to go back to Andor and sit tight. Logain shows up trying to find Rand and he knows he can't get any AS cooperation without Bashere, probally already tried.

 

Bashere probally said "no I was told to stay here until HE sends for me." But his wife was attacked and she was guardian of the seal. The situation has changed and plans need to redrawn. So he needs to find Rand to give him the what's what.

[Bob T Dwarf]

And, you think that someone with as much experience of Aes Sedai and how they get around their oaths as Bashere has, actually trusts any of them to not still be spying for the WT???

 

Yup. His own troops can't be trusted with the truth, but a buncha strange Warders can. A bunch that happens to include Elza's Warder, BTW.

 

So, the very first thing he does as part of his super-secret mission to find Rand with the help of Logain, is to alert people loyal to both the White Tower and the DO to exactly what he's doing. Fortuitous that Elza's Warder was included, doncha think? Especially when 100,000 Trollocs and Myrddraal show up right behind them.

 

NOT! At least, not if that is what he's really trying to keep secret. But, taking a non-standard way to get to Rand and taking along Warders to be sure the word gets out sure does make for good mis-direction if he's got something else entirely going on.

 

I'm more than willing to believe that any of the characters, including Bashere, is dumber than a box of rocks, but planning a "secret mission" that includes the bunch that shows up at the Manor where Rand is staying is just plain TOO stupid.

[Lews Therin Telamon]

Bashere nodded. The price of failure often was death. Two to search, and how many to silence them? How many remained, and how long before they tried again? Worst of all, who was behind it? The White Tower? The Forsaken? It seemed a decision had been reached for him.

[unquote]

 

 

Can anyone think of a reason as to why the White tower might be after Bashere? I cant, but obviously he can otherwise he wouldnt have thought it might be them. Also, remember Mins viewing about him? Cant remember the exact details but i remember thinking it meant he was a darkfriend

[Bob T Dwarf]

Nothing in Min's viewing says specifically that Bashere is Dark.

 

From Encyclopaedia WOT: "And there's something... dark... in the images I saw around Lord Davram. If he turns against you, or dies..."

 

I read that to mean that Bashere himself may not be Dark, but that some of those around him might be. He may be being influenced greatly by one or more DF, BA, or FS.

[Kara_J]

^^ I agree with bob, that's how I viewed that quote too.

I'm just wondering whether it'll turn out that his wife is a DF, and if so, how on earth will Bashere react if/when he finds out. Could be interesting!

[Bob T Dwarf]

I find the explanations for:

1. The man who was there yesterday.

2. The decision that Bashere feels he's been forced into.

3. The secrecy in agreeing to whatever has been proposed.

that have been presented so far, to be unsatisfactory.

 

Bashere had no need for Logain, and every reason to distrust him.

 

Loial and Karldin were available and also seeking Rand. Karldin was one of the very first Asha'man, predating even the founding of the Black Tower. Karldin, until he was sent off with Loial, had been with Rand since Dumai's Wells. If Bashere didn't know or trust Karldin, he would have trusted Loial.

 

Yet, when he sets off to find Rand, he takes 100 Saldaen's, Loial, Karldin, Logain, several Aes Sedai, and even more Warders.

 

Why all of those extra people? Why so many whose trustworthiness was highly suspect?

 

It just doesn't fit with his suspicion of Dark forces and his suspicion of the White Tower, and his secrecy. If he's really that suspicious, if he truly feels that his hand is being forced, that he must seek out Rand because of the attacks and that he must do so in secret, then that is not a group that he would assemble to undertake a clandestine meeting with Rand. Not if he's loyal to Rand, anyway.

 

Thus, if he's loyal, the secrecy has to involve something else entirely.

[Cybertrolloc]

Eh, what? Sorry, it's as plain as it's going to get without Jordan writing it out for you.

 

Reread the BT portions (both of them). It's there, but not as unambiguously as you're going to like.

 

How do you know Karldin is trustworthy? You can't assume that since Jordan never gave a PoV for him ;) I'll leave you to figure out how Bashere would get to Carhein then find someone that can lead him to Rand.

[Guest Majsju]

Loial and Karldin were available and also seeking Rand.

 

Seeking Rand? Yes. Available? Not quite, as Loial and Karldin are in Cairhien. Until they are swooped up by, guess who? Right Logain, and the sisters with him. Incidently, this happens after Bashere's meeting with this unknown man.

 

It is oh so simple. Logain wants to find Rand, to tell him what's going on at the BT, and probably to get as far away from Taim as possible before something nasty happens. He starts checking with people Rand might have trusted with his whereabouts, or at least able to provide him with hints. So, bashere is high on that list. Bashere does not know, but tells that Cairhien might be a good place to check. And agrees to tag along with some soldiers when Logain has learned where Rand is. In Cairhien Logain finds Loial and Karldin, who happen to have the same need to find Rand, so they tag along. And someone tells Logain about the Warders in cairhien who can lead him to Aes Sedai trusted enough to be allowed to travel with Rand.

 

Regarding who Bashere trusts here, it does not matter, since what he agrees to do is to tag along once Rand is located, not actually lead anyone to rand since he does not know where Rand is.

[Bob T Dwarf]

cybertrolloc -

 

We can be pretty sure that Karldin can be trusted because of both the length of time he's been with Rand, and because he was the one Rand trusted to accompany Loial on the mission to safeguard the stedding Waygates.

 

Maj -

 

Since you're constructing a whole series of events out of whole cloth, why would Logain approach Bashere? In fact, how does he even know Bashere is in the area to be approached.

 

Taim knows, but he and Logain haven't been sitting around exchanging confidences. Logain has very certainly been trying to avoid Taim as much as possible, and he is certainly trying to get as far away from Taim as he can.

 

What would be generally known, and would be the information Logain would have and form the basis for his actions, is that Rand was last known to be in Cairhien. Cairhien would be the first place he would begin looking, not in some anonymous field somewhere outside Caemlyn.

 

It seems more likely to me that Logain and Bashere reached Cairhein independently. How and why they, Loial, Karldin, a bunch of Aes Sedai and Warders all joined together is unknown.

[Guest Majsju]

Since you're constructing a whole series of events out of whole cloth, why would Logain approach Bashere? In fact, how does he even know Bashere is in the area to be approached.

 

Constructing a link between a series of events anyone who has actually read the book would have noticed.

 

We know that someone approaches Bashere with somekind of suggestion. Around the same time Logain gets green light from Taim to go out and recruit.

 

We know Logain arrives in Cairhien around the same time as Loail and Karldin, we know Loial and Karldin wants to find Rand, and considering the events when the party arrives at the manor where Rand hides, we can assume both Logain and bashere have the same eagerness, since both brings important news to Rand.

 

We also know that sometime after Logains arrival in Cairhien he adds bashere and the saldeans to the party, as they would definitly have been mentioned if they had arrived with him to Cairhien.

 

We also know that Logain hooks up with the Warders who can leads him to Rand in Cairhien. Which means Logain can Travel immidiatly from Cairhien to the manor.

 

So how could Bashere possibly have been added to this party without any earlier agreement?

Your suggestion that bashere and Logain arrived independently to cairhien, at the same time is so ridicilous that I can't understand how you could even think about it. Unless Bashere has taught his horses to fly, it is impossible to arrive at the same time as Logain, unless RJ really screwed up the timeline in the prologue. Or if Logain for some reason decided to sit around and wait for a week or so in Cairhien.

 

Oh, and as for how Logain would know bashere was in the area. It is hardly a secret that bashere is in command of rand's private army. It is not a secret where this army is located. And Logain seems intelligent enough to be able to do the math. And since there are rumours all over the place about what happened in cairhien, Logain would be an idiot to not go and talk to someone he thinks Rand might trust first, before diving headfirst into a place where something happened involving Rand, something that made Rand disappear. Logain is as arrogant as they come, but he is definitly not an idiot.