Rand's state of mind regarding his foes

[DragonSpawn]

I just find it disturbing how Rand seems so weak treating his enemies, in particular the White Tower. Lesser men then him have almost broken the Tower. I believe it was Guaire Amalasan, when he was captured his Generals started a last desperate assault on the White Tower itself, burst through the walls of Tar Valon and broke into the inner courtyard of the Tower itself. Now to make it almost into the core of the Tower, means quite a few Tower guards, warders and Aes Sedai died or were knocked out of action (but as we know the Aes Sedai obsession with appearing strong, probably all dead Aes Sedai were denied and the whole affair played down, until it was mentioned by Moiraine or Verin).

Or Arthur Pendragon, he kept all Aes Sedai cooped up in Tar Valon and put it under siege.

 

These were all armies without channelers, and they almost brought the existence of the Tower to the end by uprooting it. However Rand had to abide torture by the Tower, kidnapping, interference in his personal affairs, manipulation and treachery whenever he turns around a new corner.

 

What goes through his psyche that he tolerates this? Why does he behave inherently weak by allowing his malefactors to thrive?

 

If I personally were in his position, I wouldn't dandle that much. Knowing how much the Seanchan despise the Aes Sedai, I would treat with them that they assault the Tower and keep half the Aes Sedai for their D'amanes, and with the other chastened half rebuild the Tower in my eyes as I see fit. Giving Egwene and her lot, the choice of being in charge under my command or join their Sisters with the Seanchan.

Why doesn't Rand complete these actions, as would be to some degree sensible, or even in the direction of these but less drastic? He is conquerring and shaping the rest of the world in his image, why not add those who bother and harrass him since book 1 into the lot as well?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Ummmmmmmm, basically because Rand is supposed to be a Good Guy.

 

In the fiction of what is euphemistically called "Western Culture", the Good Guys always expose themselves to needless risk and aggravation by unfailingly trying to temporize with their enemies.

 

It simply IS NOT ALLOWED for any Good Guy to treat an enemy as they deserve.

[DragonSpawn]

Ummmmmmmm' date=' basically because Rand is supposed to be a Good Guy.

 

In the fiction of what is euphemistically called "Western Culture", the Good Guys always expose themselves to needless risk and aggravation by unfailingly trying to temporize with their enemies.

 

It simply [i']IS NOT ALLOWED[/i] for any Good Guy to treat an enemy as they deserve.

 

SO by your reasoning, Artur Pendragon despite giving them what they deserve is not a hero? Despite everyone in the book exclaiming him as one or at least very few not praising him?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Didn't say he wasn't a hero. What I implied is that he wasn't a Good Guy.

 

By all accounts Hawkwing was a very determined and ruthless piece of work. He had a private vision for the world he lived in and he did everything in his power to enact that vision. Like all tyrants ( and, in fact, everyone, everywhen/where ) he saw his vision for his world as being for the best. His motivation was "to do good."

 

How much good or ill any of us does is something that is left for the survivors of our acts to determine long after we are gone.

 

On balance, the view of him during Rand's time seems to have been that he did more good than harm. Those subject to him or contending with him during his own time probably had a very different view. Remember, just like him, each of them thought that they were only doing what was best also.

 

Not even psychopaths get up in the morning and say to themselves, "Let's see how much evil I can do today." The human capacity for self delusion is such that we all see ourselves as only doing ultimate good.

 

Hawkwing would have seen himself in just such a light. To himself he was a good guy. To the rest of his contemporary world he was a scourge. That's why they opposed him.

 

Ultimately, like everyone else, he was neither complete saint nor complete sinner. Just a mortal human being who happenend to have the talents necessary to make a bigger than normal mess as a result of his flawed perceptions.

[DragonSpawn]

Didn't say he wasn't a hero. What I implied is that he wasn't a Good Guy.

 

By all accounts Hawkwing was a very determined and ruthless piece of work. He had a private vision for the world he lived in and he did everything in his power to enact that vision. Like all tyrants ( and' date=' in fact, everyone, everywhen/where ) he saw his vision for his world as being for the best. His motivation was "to do good."

 

How much good or ill any of us does is something that is left for the survivors of our acts to determine long after we are gone.

 

On balance, the view of him during Rand's time seems to have been that he did more good than harm. Those subject to him or contending with him during his own time probably had a very different view. Remember, just like him, each of them thought that they were only doing what was best also.

 

Not even psychopaths get up in the morning and say to themselves, "Let's see how much evil I can do today." The human capacity for self delusion is such that we all see ourselves as only doing ultimate good.

 

Hawkwing would have seen himself in just such a light. To himself he was a good guy. To the rest of his contemporary world he was a scourge. That's why they opposed him.

 

Ultimately, like everyone else, he was neither complete saint nor complete sinner. Just a mortal human being who happenend to have the talents necessary to make a bigger than normal mess as a result of his flawed perceptions.[/quote']

 

 

However the Aes Sedai sought to enslave and chain Hawkwing to them, particularly the Amyrlin wanted to control the world through him. And it is always spoken of how the Amyrlin misstepped badly with Hawkwing, that from an Aes Sedai mouth probably means an attempted kidnapping action like Rand befell or in that direction.

 

How do you blame Hawkwing or call him evil, because he punishes those who sought his downfall and tried to manipulate him?

 

Same how would it make Rand a bad guy to destroy the powerbase of those who wronged him? In this case uproot the Tower? He invaded nations for lesser reasons.

[Taishar Manetheren]

Are you reading the same books as i am?

 

Rand cant even harm woman forsaken who are more evil then any aes sedai, and you want him to enslave houndreds of woman to be damane???

 

besides that, he wants the white tower on his side for the last battle.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Nor did I say Hawkwing was evil.

 

What I said was, he tried to do the best things he could envision. Being mortal, his vision was flawed. Thus, what he actually did was part good and part evil. The same as what everyone else does. No better. No worse. Just on a grander scale.

 

None of that implies that he wasn't heroic. Heroes are just as flawed as everyone else.

[Guest Majsju]

Rand is the good guy, he can't possibly do something even remotely close to what's been suggested. That would put him as morally equal to the forsaken, and we would have a very different story.

 

The Heroes on the other hand are not necessarily good as individuals. The path they are put on by the Wheel makes them serve a greater good, but their individual actions to achieve that can be very far from good, as hawkwing quite clearly shows.

 

That Hawkwing in his deranged mind thought he did what was right does not mean that he was a good person, just as you can't get away with murder just because you thought it should be acceptable to commit murder.

[Osangar1282083176]

it could be something more pagmatic. rand needs the tower to serve his needs. aes sedai will be impossible to control, or trust to the smallest degree if they do not follow him willingly. he needs them, but he knows it will be impossible to force their aid, therefore a certain amount of diplomacy is required.

[Luckers]

I don't believe Rand didn't attack the Tower because he is a good guy, he diddn't attack the tower because like everyone else in Randland he has been socialized to fear and respect the Tower. Despite the ease with which he couldn't have taken it, he genuinely thought they would win.

 

There is also some thought that he needs Aes Sedai in the last battle, which isn't completely true... oh a thousand channelers is nothing to shrug off, but Rand already had 6000 Wise Ones... having the Aes Sedai wasn't nessasary, but again that strange socialized response.

[Simple Gleeman]

I think attacking the White Tower would cause him all sorts of political problems with the rest of the nations, say the Borderlands?

 

Now they might respect him out of fear if he completely and utterly took control of it. But even then, Egwene's Aes Sedai would go crazy. There's no telling how they would react, and they can Travel.

 

And how could he hand hundreds of women over to the Seanchan? He views them a barely better than the DO.