The Horn of Valere and Jain Farstrider

[Gabriel Kross]

We know that Jain Farstrider is like the most celebrated hero of this age, and with his heroics in ToM the question I want to debate is does Jain get bound to the Horn when it's blown in the LB or is he done?

[Ananta]

Knowing Wheel of Time, the only good guy who dies in the series will come back via the horn and live forever and happily ever after in TAR.

[Gabriel Kross]

Well each age has it's heroes that are added to the horn Jain is the only person that falls in on that category at present since this will be the end of an age obviously rand will not be added because obviously the dragon gets reborn (assuming he dies but lets not debate that due to the thread will go off topic)

[kght22]

We know that Jain Farstrider is like the most celebrated hero of this age, and with his heroics in ToM the question I want to debate is does Jain get bound to the Horn when it's blown in the LB or is he done?

he isn't the most celebrated hero of the age (that goes to hawkwing) and by many who fought for the light the name jaim charn is a curse (he likely is responsible for isam's charge that led to malkier falling)

 

but that i don't think is how souls are bound to the horn, keep in mind the horn itself might even predate the age of legends, and rj even said that ishy didn't lie when he said that the dragon had fought for the shadow in the past.

 

jaim farstrider charn like rand al'thor was rolled out for a role, we can suspect that he is bound to the horn, but until it is blown, we will never know.

[kght22]

Well each age has it's heroes that are added to the horn Jain is the only person that falls in on that category at present since this will be the end of an age obviously rand will not be added because obviously the dragon gets reborn (assuming he dies but lets not debate that due to the thread will go off topic)

their names are added to the horn, i have always wondered if they are added anew. it seems to me that they were already bound before they were born.

[Gabriel Kross]

was Hawkwing apart of that age? I never could figure out what age he belonged to.

[LeeM.Erickson]

Hawkwing is definitely of the Third Age. Remember, the current Age has lasted around 3,000 years, from the end of the Breaking until the current events. Hawkwing's empire ended around a thousand years before the events taking place with Rand and Co. It certainly falls into the Third Age.

 

But, based on Hawkwing's dialogue in TGH, and the fact that he's bound to the Horn and mentions fighting both along side and against Lews Therin, I'd wager that he's been bound to the Horn for a long time, and Artur Hawkwing was just his latest incarnation in this Age.

 

Also, the Horn is definitely older than the Age of Legends. It was known as an ancient artifact even in the Age of Legends, but was seen only as a myth.

 

I don't think people are added to the Horn too often, so I don't know if Jain Farstrider will be added to the list. Considering there's only around a hundred Heroes of the Horn (at least around that many called in TGH I believe...I'm sure if there's any Heroes that are currently alive when the Horn is sounded, they don't come. At least it didn't happen with Rand), I doubt that they get added very often.

[Gabriel Kross]

Yea I missed the comment from him, I'm not real sure what I thought when he said that he recognised him as Lews Therin

[Bromo Sapien]

I feel like the Dragon is above a "mere" Hero of the Horn. I thought that when Hawkwing recognized Rand, he simply recognized him from a previous life or from Tel'aran'rhiod. I'm assuming that's where the Dragon chills when not alive, just like all the rest of the people who are waiting to get spun out.

 

As for Jain, I seriously doubt he's anywhere close to a Hero. The Heroes are the elite of the elite. I would compare them to Jordan, Bird, or Abdul-Jabbar in the NBA. Jain is like Paul Pierce. Great player, Hall of Famer, not even close to the same level as the others.

[kght22]

actually i continue to wonder what hawkwing meant when he was talking about coming to the call of the horn but following the banner. he really seemed to need that banner to act. does that mean in ages where he fought against rand he still followed rand's banner. does that mean that if the shadow used that banner as their own that he would fight for the shadow. just drives me nuts.

[kght22]

and don't forget birgette, she was bound to the horn, and had memories going back beyond the age of legends, i doubt her memories of the tower were from the age of legends (might have been, but i don't think even she would have been able to be clear about that, it might have even been a third age memory) the one thing that she knows for sure is that she hates moggy, and moggy hates her. and i am betting that she is still bound to the horn, min was almost dumbstruck by the number of visions she saw on birgitte.

[Gabriel Kross]

actually i continue to wonder what hawkwing meant when he was talking about coming to the call of the horn but following the banner. he really seemed to need that banner to act. does that mean in ages where he fought against rand he still followed rand's banner. does that mean that if the shadow used that banner as their own that he would fight for the shadow. just drives me nuts.

 

No, doesn't he say he has fought against him in the past?

[Master of Germs]

Well, for me it is quite plausible that there should be more than just one Hero of the Horn out in ther real world when the age is coming to an end. We know that the Dragon is bound to the horn and he has been reborn after some 3000 years. We don't know how often usually rebirths occur but if we assume 3000 years as an average value and with a hundred heroes of the Horn available (approximately) a hero should be reborn each 30 years (more or less). It's more complicated, of course, as we have some "linked vessels" like Birgitte & Gaidal.

We know Gaidal is already reborn and is somewhere as a baby (a possible future hero in the war between Aiel and Seanchan, maybe) and Birgitte was spun out before her time has come. But still, there should be at least one Hero reborn (and possibly yet alive, but much older) if we count the 30 years as an average "hero rebirth interval". So, I bet that this is Jain Farstrider (and if he has done some "twilight" deeds, this is not a reason not to be Hero of the Horn). Artur Hawkwing himself has done a great share of deeds in favour of the shadow.

So, if you compare The heroes with the NBA players and Rand is Jordan, and Mat and Perrin are Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, and if Hawkwing is some older one like Wilt Chamberlane, then Farstrider could be someone like "Dr. J"

[Gabriel Kross]

I'm pretty sure Mat and Perrin are bound to the Horn as well, which would explain Mat's extensive Old Tongue knowledge and the knowledge from the past generals pretty sure his first wtf was that memory comes while he is still recovering in the tower (not as broad before eel-finn but it still exists) also the prophecies (dark and light) mention both Mat and Perrin, which would infer that they both were involved in the previous "Last

Battles" as well so the several being alive is covered in the current time line.

[FarShainMael]

I'm pretty sure Mat and Perrin are bound to the Horn as well, which would explain Mat's extensive Old Tongue knowledge and the knowledge from the past generals pretty sure his first wtf was that memory comes while he is still recovering in the tower (not as broad before eel-finn but it still exists) also the prophecies (dark and light) mention both Mat and Perrin, which would infer that they both were involved in the previous "Last Battles" as well so the several being alive is covered in the current time line.

 

In fact, Mat was talking OT - or at least, shouting battle-cries - well before that (TEotW18).

 

I think there's a thread somewhere exploring Mat's possibly being Aemon reborn (from his memories of fighting in Manetheren (TDR19)).

 

ETA: more than one thread!

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/62215-mats-memories

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/54534-who-is-mat

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/56106-aemon-eldrene

[Gabriel Kross]

I would assume he is several people reborn tbh with all those different memories, we don't get enough timeline from them to see if multiple were alive at the same time. but this too is just speculation

[gloweye]

I think he's bound or going to be...he's just legendary even before his death.

 

and about rebirth rate, i think they differ great deal between heroes. we know from RJ that, when in TAR, they call each other by their last-born name.

 

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age. In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation.

 

That said we know two things - arthur calls rand Lews Therin - that means that both have not been reborn in between. Birgitte however, remembers almost countless lives, from AoL, founding of the white tower (300 years later?) trolloc and 100 year wars, and even a few boring lives(how did birgitte get those?).

 

so the rebirth rate must vary per hero.

 

And talking about the size of an age, it seems more logical to me that they are about 1000 years each - NA is the most current year count, and it stands for "New Age". and its at only 1000 now.

[Mr Ares]

actually i continue to wonder what hawkwing meant when he was talking about coming to the call of the horn but following the banner. he really seemed to need that banner to act. does that mean in ages where he fought against rand he still followed rand's banner. does that mean that if the shadow used that banner as their own that he would fight for the shadow. just drives me nuts.

Following the banner was a one time occurence, not something that always happens.

 

 

I'm pretty sure Mat and Perrin are bound to the Horn as well, which would explain Mat's extensive Old Tongue knowledge and the knowledge from the past generals pretty sure his first wtf was that memory comes while he is still recovering in the tower (not as broad before eel-finn but it still exists) also the prophecies (dark and light) mention both Mat and Perrin, which would infer that they both were involved in the previous "Last Battles" as well so the several being alive is covered in the current time line.

Mat and Perrin being bound to the Horn would not explain Mat's Old Tongue knowledge. The prophecies mentioning Mat and Perrin does not infer (nor does it imply) that they were around in any previous Last Battle, it means only that they will have a role in this one. Mat's OT (as well as the memory he has in the Tower) are from the Old blood. His memories are from people who went to visit the Eelfinn. His luck is from the dagger. There is nothing about Mat that his being a Hero explains better.

 

 

And talking about the size of an age, it seems more logical to me that they are about 1000 years each - NA is the most current year count, and it stands for "New Age". and its at only 1000 now.

The current Age, which is called the Third Age by some, is older than 1,000 years. In fact, it's older than 3,000 years. The calendars changed after the fall of Hawkwing's empire and after the Trolloc Wars. So AB (after the Breaking) is the first thousand years, followed by 300 years of Trolloc Wars, then another 1,000 years, then hawkwing, then the War of a Hundred Years, then the New Era. Of course, the only Age identified by number is the Third, the Age of Legends is only ever referred to as such, not the Second Age. Once upon a time, a poster put forward the theory that the AoL was actually the first part of the Third Age, not an Age of its own.

[FarShainMael]

I would assume he is several people reborn tbh with all those different memories, we don't get enough timeline from them to see if multiple were alive at the same time. but this too is just speculation

 

The different memories were inserted into Mat's mnd/brain by the Eelfinn in response to his expressed wish to have the holes in his memory filled:

 

“Speak,” one of the women said in that growling voice. “By the ancient treaty, here is agreement made. What is your need? Speak.”

 

Mat hesitated. That was not what the snaky people had said. They were all staring at him like foxes staring at dinner. “Who is the Daughter of the Nine Moons and why do I have to marry her?” He hoped they would count that as one question.

 

No one answered. None of them spoke. They just continued to stare at him with those big pale eyes.

 

“You are supposed to answer,” he said. Silence. “Burn your bones to ash, answer me! Who is the Daughter of the Nine Moons and why do I have to marry her? How will I die and live again? What does it mean that I have to give up half the light of the world? Those are my three questions. Say something!”

 

Dead silence. He could hear himself breathing, hear the blood throbbing in his ears.

 

“I have no intention of marrying. And I have no intention of dying, either, whether I am supposed to live again or not. I walk around with holes in my memory, holes in my life, and you stare at me like idiots. If I had my way, I would want those holes filled, but at least answers to my questions might fill some in my future. You have to answer—!”

 

“Done,” one of the men growled, and Mat blinked.

 

So he's not the rebirth of any of the people who supply these memories.

 

At least.. not necessarily!

[gloweye]

 

And talking about the size of an age, it seems more logical to me that they are about 1000 years each - NA is the most current year count, and it stands for "New Age". and its at only 1000 now.

The current Age, which is called the Third Age by some, is older than 1,000 years. In fact, it's older than 3,000 years. The calendars changed after the fall of Hawkwing's empire and after the Trolloc Wars. So AB (after the Breaking) is the first thousand years, followed by 300 years of Trolloc Wars, then another 1,000 years, then hawkwing, then the War of a Hundred Years, then the New Era. Of course, the only Age identified by number is the Third, the Age of Legends is only ever referred to as such, not the Second Age. Once upon a time, a poster put forward the theory that the AoL was actually the first part of the Third Age, not an Age of its own.

 

Sorry, got confused by the dutch translation.... Age is translated the same as Era.

[Gabriel Kross]

It will need to be researched, but I'm almost positive that he had a memory in book 3 durring recovery in the white tower. Yes I agree that they are more frequent after but I believe its before the finns.

[FarShainMael]

It will need to be researched, but I'm almost positive that he had a memory in book 3 durring recovery in the white tower. Yes I agree that they are more frequent after but I believe its before the finns.

 

It was..

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/tdr/ch18.html

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/tdr/ch19.html

 

Beware of the notes; they are often assumptions, if well-supported ones.

 

He didn't meet the Eelfinn until well into TSR:

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/tsr/ch24.html

[Gabriel Kross]

The ch 18 quotes most likely would not have been Aemon, Aemon was married to an Aes Sedai so why he would yell like that towards Aes Sedai?

[Clouded]

Why are the memory and Mat speaking the old tongue tied together? I was under the impression that the Old Tongue came from Mat's blood. Couldn't the memory come from the Dagger? Didn't Aridhol fight trollocs?

 

And as for evidence of seepage between the Dagger and it's holder, simply look at Fain.

[FarShainMael]

Aemon's wife Eldrene could certainly channel, but we don't know if she was AS. Being a queen, she may not have been (consider Elayne, whose loyalties may be split between the WT and her dual throne). If she wasn't actually AS, there may have been some tension between her and the WT, which may have been why Mat yelled that!

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/hist/eldrene.html