Something of an experiment: Success (in my view)

[Cybertrolloc]

Yes' date=' so while Sammael's attention was focused on Rand, Mashadar got him. Like, when someone is trying to kill you, and you lead them into a trap. It wasn't you, it was the spikes at the bottom of the pit.[/quote']

How much Mashadar was in the square in the 0.5 seconds that it took Rand to look away to blast Liah? I can't recall adjectives like fast or quick being applied to it ;)

[Luckers]

Yes there is some argument for Rand's influence on those events. Rand's use of balefire altered the position of Mashadar. Nevertheless it was Mashadar that killed Sammael.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yeah, the way I pictured it, Rand sweeping balefire through the Plaza cut the support out from under Sammael's balcony in the past, causing Sammael to fall into Mashadar in the past (making it unavoidable for him). IF (and I stress that if, since this is simply how I pictured it) that is the case, then Rand is responsible for his death in the same way that a man who pushes someone off a building is responsible for that person's death. The push didn't kill them, the pavement at the bottom did, but the person up top is still responsible. Mashadar is, to me, in this situation, the equivalent of some really nasty pavement.

[Thor]

No, I think Mashadar killed Sammual directly.

[RobertAlexWillis]

-sigh- If Rand made Sammael fall into Mashadar, isn't Mashadar killing Sammael "directly"? Just like the pavement kills a defenestratee "directly"? And if you don't know that word, look it up, I'm not in an explicatory mood. :D

[Jonn]

-sigh- If Rand made Sammael fall into Mashadar, isn't Mashadar killing Sammael "directly"? Just like the pavement kills a defenestratee "directly"? And if you don't know that word, look it up, I'm not in an explicatory mood. :D

 

So, it was the chicken, in your opinion? I disagree. It was the egg. :lol:

[racha_giurgiu]

This poor topic has drifted so far off topic. Does anyone know of a WOT virgin that needs to read and give his/her opinion as to who killed Asmo. This is not a forum for discussing the theories of who did it, but was initially supposed to be a forum to give voice to first timers and their initial guess as to whodunit.

[rochaid]

in a few weeks.....my friends on book four now...

[Bob T Dwarf]

Robert -

 

You're making a few unfortunate choices here.

 

1. Rand wasn't "responsible for Sammael being in Shadar Logoth in the first place." Sam led Rand there. It was Sam's vanity that was responsible for him being there, not Rand.

 

2. Sam wasn't on a balcony. He was at ground level.

 

3. Sam was fixated on the place where he intended to ambush Rand, not on Rand himself.

 

4. Sam was already hemmed in and doomed before Rand spotted Liah and put her out of her misery. There was only one tiny tendril of Mashadar touching her foot. Balefiring her didn't alter Mashadars position. Once it got close enough to Sam to detect him, he was, indeed, toast.

 

cybertrolloc -

 

Mashadar is the distillation of all of the hatred for the Shadow that Mordeth could instill into Shadar Logoth and everyone who lived there. When in the presence of those touched by the DO, Mashadar strikes like a viper. Ordinary people, people generally of the Light, aren't the focus for its existence. The Shadow is. It seems to know that and act accordingly.

[Cybertrolloc]

Rand looks out over the square from whatever he's perched on:

 

He sees Mashadar coming out the windows of the two palaces nearest Sammy and looming over his head. Liah yells, Sam and Rand both turn to look at her, Rand bfs her then swings the beam back towards Sammy, except the only thing he sees now is clouds of Mashadar.

 

So I was wrong, but hopefully won't have to read the boring parts of ACoS again ;)

[RobertAlexWillis]

1. Rand wasn't "responsible for Sammael being in Shadar Logoth in the first place." Sam led Rand there. It was Sam's vanity that was responsible for him being there, not Rand.

 

And Sammael led Rand to Shadar Logoth because Rand attacked him in Illian. No Rand, no Sammy in Shadar Logoth.

 

2. Sam wasn't on a balcony. He was at ground level.

 

Well, ok, that is correct, I didn't have my copy of aCoS handy when I posted. Which does rule out my whole falling thing. But defenestrate is such a fun word!

 

3. Sam was fixated on the place where he intended to ambush Rand, not on Rand himself.

 

Still a result of Rand's actions (attack on Illian).

 

4. Sam was already hemmed in and doomed before Rand spotted Liah and put her out of her misery. There was only one tiny tendril of Mashadar touching her foot. Balefiring her didn't alter Mashadars position. Once it got close enough to Sam to detect him, he was, indeed, toast.

 

Actually, if Sammael hadn't been distracted by Liah's scream and Rand balefiring her, he might well have had time to make a gateway and get out. Its not like it takes very long, and having come there to set his traps, he would be familiar with the place.

 

Mashadar is the distillation of all of the hatred for the Shadow that Mordeth could instill into Shadar Logoth and everyone who lived there. When in the presence of those touched by the DO, Mashadar strikes like a viper. Ordinary people, people generally of the Light, aren't the focus for its existence. The Shadow is. It seems to know that and act accordingly.

 

Please give an independent example. That would be interesting if true ... but Mashadar always seems to act slowly and inexorably toward humans ... and Sammael is the only example I can think of where we see a Forsaken in Shadar Logoth. Remember, even though they're evil, the Forsaken aren't the same as Shadowspawn.

 

So, it was the chicken, in your opinion? I disagree. It was the egg.

 

Actually, unlike the chicken and the egg, we have a fairly clear timeline of events here.

 

 

 

As to the topic drifting ... eh, I knew it was inevitable ... but at least there is a topic to come back to. I'll be interested to see what rochaid's friend thinks.

[rochaid]

well he's a slow reader so don't count on it any time soon,but if the topic has drifted off the forum i'll find it and bring it back to the top...

[Bob T Dwarf]

And Sammael led Rand to Shadar Logoth because Rand attacked him in Illian. No Rand, no Sammy in Shadar Logoth.

 

Oh, puhleeze!

 

If Sam hadn't freely decided to join the Shadow, Rand wouldn't have been opposing him at all. Shadar Logoth was just the last in a long lifetime of bad choices that Tel Janin Aellinsar had made.

 

Sammael died entirely due to his own stupidity.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If Sam hadn't freely decided to join the Shadow, Rand wouldn't have been opposing him at all. Shadar Logoth was just the last in a long lifetime of bad choices that Tel Janin Aellinsar had made.

 

You're leaving the immediate sequence of events for the overall one. That said, yes, everyone who has ever been killed is killed because of their own choices, unless they are slaughtered as an infant. If Be'lal hadn't taken over the Stone, Moiraine wouldn't have gone for him. If Lanfear hadn't attacked Rand, Moiraine wouldn't have tackled her. If Balthamel hadn't gone to the Eye, Someshta wouldn't have mulched him. I'm talking about the immediate set of circumstances, which was initiated by Rand al'Thor's attack on Illian.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Which, in turn, was engendered by Sammael and other Forsaken drawing Rand's attention to Illian as Sam's stronghold, hoping to provoke him to attack so they could ambush him.

 

You can't arbitrarily end a chain of events at a point of your choosing. All chains of events have a start point and an end point.

 

This chain of events started in the AoL with the choices Sam made then. It ended with his death as a direct result of his own successive actions.

 

Mashadar was merely the instument of Sam's demise. He initiated his own death. A simple case of too much vanity and too little thought. Rand wasn't even a spectator; he was engaged in ending Liah's misery. Nothing Rand did compelled Sammael to choose Shadar Logoth. Nothing Rand did prevented Sam from acquainting himself with the dangers of that place. Nothing Rand did kept Sam from protecting himself from those dangers.

 

Ultimately, Sammael proved himself to be too full of his own importance and too ignorant of his own manifest limitations to live.

 

If he had a tombstone it should read: "Here lies Tel Janin Aellinsar. He lived as a putz and he died as a putz."

[RobertAlexWillis]

Which, in turn, was engendered by Sammael and other Forsaken drawing Rand's attention to Illian as Sam's stronghold, hoping to provoke him to attack so they could ambush him.

 

Therefore no one has ever been killed by anyone else. Everyone who dies, dies by their own fault. Including Asmodean! Yay, we solved it!

 

Actually, though, it was Sammael's parents fault. If they had never had sex, Sammael wouldn't have been born, and therefore he couldn't have died.

 

You can't arbitrarily end a chain of events at a point of your choosing. All chains of events have a start point and an end point.

 

Actually, we can, and have to, since everything extends back farther than we know. I choose to start the chain of events with the first independent action of that particular day, Rand's attack on Illian. It was not the beginning. There are not beginnings nor endings on the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.

[cannon]

It was not the beginning. There are not beginnings nor endings on the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.

 

Easily the single best statement in this argument over the last several posts. Thank you so much.

[Narg]

but we cant give sams death to himself. if we must give it to sombody who didnt do anything i vote perrin cuz he needs a pickmeup the whole faile thing just made him more whiny not exciting. but realy it was mashdar not anybody else the thing that did the actual killing mashdar i dont care why mashdar killed him or whose fault it was that mashdar killed him the fact still stands MASHDAR KILLED HIM!

[Cybertrolloc]

Ultimately' date=' Sammael proved himself to be too full of his own importance and too ignorant of his own manifest limitations to live.

 

If he had a tombstone it should read: "Here lies Tel Janin Aellinsar. He lived as a putz and he died as a putz."[/quote']

He may have died a putz (look up you idiot). Don't forget that nearly every Shadow plot post tDR until his death involved him in some way, most of them at his instigation. He continued this through ACoS even with a war on his doorstep, he's still one of the most effective Forsaken to date.

[Thor]

I agree that the Sammual kill cannot be credited to Rand.

 

1. He did not make the killing shot.

2. Sammual should have been smarter and chose a venue such as Falme or something.

3. I went to the supermarket yesterday to buy cheese, but I saw some fruits and bought them too. Is it the cheese's fault that I bought the fruits?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Nope. Your stomach's. For getting hungry. And, your mind's for thinking cheese sounded good.

 

[Jonn]

OK, no one can control Mashadar. If Mashadar killed someone, then it was Mashadar what killed them.

 

If Rand chose Shadar Logoth as the spot to kill Sammael because Mashadar would give him an advantage and possibly kill the man for him, you still can't say that Rand killed him in the end. He has to have intended to use mashadar from the start as a weapon, and that implies that he has some grasp of how to control mashadar, which is impossible. Rand choosing the spot for its danger to Sammael is a foolish argument, because he is in equal danger there. That turns out not to be the case anyway, as he did not appear to choose the ground.

 

It's the direct intention that counts here. Rand's intention at the time of Sammael's death was to kill the man with woven balefire or some other weave of the Power. Mashadar is considered an independent force, even a hazard of the terrain. Either man could have been killed by Mashadar. Let's take the cliff analogy or high ledge analogy. If someone pushes someone off of a high ledge or cliff in a fight, then that's murder. If a bird flies up and scares one of the combatants, who then stumbles and falls off the edge, the other combatant cannot be directly credited with the death. Perhaps partially, that is if that person chose the ground to fight on with the specific intent of throwing that person off a cliff or high ledge.

 

I don't see that there's a way to convince anyone that Rand intended to kill Sammael using Mashadar. Rand did, after all, follow Sammael to Shadar Logoth where there were shadowspawn there waiting in support. If anyone is to be credited with bringing the cliff (or Mashadar in this case) to the terrain of the fight, it's Sammael. He obviously didn't intend to get killed by Mashadar, so he cannot be blamed for his own death.

 

Mashadar kills Sammael quite clearly as an independent force. Whether or not Rand's balefire came into play, his intent was not particularly to drive mashadar towards Sammael.

 

Then again this argument is rather obvious if you've read the text carefully, or at least in my case, can reference a rather accurate timeline resource.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I don't think I, or anyone else, has argued that Rand directed Mashadar, or intended to kill Sammael using Mashadar. Obviously Rand could not control Mashadar ... no one, with the possible exception of Fain/Mordeth, could.

 

What is being argued is that it was Rand's actions that put Sammael in the position where he was killed by Mashadar. Sammael failed to move himself out of immediate harm's way because he was distracted by Rand. Sammael was only in Shadar Logoth at all in response to the attack Rand initiated in Illian. Therefore, Rand is ultimately responsible for Sammael's death, even though (and I don't think anyone has denied this) Mashadar actually killed Sammael.

 

Out of curiousity ... why does this matter again? I've lost track.

[Jonn]

I don't think I, or anyone else, has argued that Rand directed Mashadar, or intended to kill Sammael using Mashadar. Obviously Rand could not control Mashadar ... no one, with the possible exception of Fain/Mordeth, could.

 

What is being argued is that it was Rand's actions that put Sammael in the position where he was killed by Mashadar. Sammael failed to move himself out of immediate harm's way because he was distracted by Rand. Sammael was only in Shadar Logoth at all in response to the attack Rand initiated in Illian. Therefore, Rand is ultimately responsible for Sammael's death, even though (and I don't think anyone has denied this) Mashadar actually killed Sammael.

 

Out of curiousity ... why does this matter again? I've lost track.

 

Actually, it appears that Sammael might have had Shadar Logoth as a contingency anyhow. When they both Travelled to Shadar Logoth, it was Sammael who went there first. He chose the new ground and Rand simply followed. How do we know this? We know this because of the presence of shadowspawn there. Only one of the Fosaken would be able to drive shadowspawn into Shadar Logoth. They wouldn't go in just to chase Rand there or just in case Rand shows up, they wouldn't wait there. They were there because of Sammael, which means Sammael was the one who planned to face Rand there.

 

So repsonsibility is actually Sammael's for setting up the confrontation in Shadar Logoth. He had no intention of dying, so he cannot be blamed directly for his own death. That's just silly. Rand surely intended to kille Sammael, that isn't the debate. The debate is if Rand actually killed Sammael directly. The answer is definitely no.

 

Whether you intended to or not, you have to actually kill the person directly from your actions for that death to be laid at your feet. Rand would have chased Sammael to anywhere. It was Samael's choice to go to Shadar Logoth. Mashadar, the inherent danger of the terrain took his life.

 

Rand actually went exactly where Sammael wanted him to. Sammael planned to kill Rand there, away from Illian, so that he could preserve his base of operations from a catastrophic showdown between them. Everyone knew Rand was going to go after Sammael, in fact Sammael expected it some time before then. He actually wanted Rand to come after him. Rand was supposed to attack Sammael in Illian according to Sammmael's plan. the same plan involved Rand following Sammael to Shadar Logoth, where Sammael was to kill Rand while he was distracted by shadowspawn swarming all over the place. Mashadar actually added to Rand's danger as well. So there's little argument that Rand intended to even go to Shadar Logoth. There's some argument that he wanted to confront Sammael surely. There is NO argument to suggest that Rand planned for or executed any action that would lead Sammael to die at the touch of mashadar as he did. So this argument that Rand is the direct cause of Samamel's death is truly flawed.

 

As for the relevance of this whole issue. I think an indirect point is made here that very few deaths are cut and dry in these books. That's the way it's meant to be, by the way. Whatever your first impression about things in these novels, there is bound to be more complexity there than you could ever anticipate. Either that or it is we the audience who put a good bit of the complexity into these sequences.

I rather think it's a combination of both.

[RobertAlexWillis]

As usual, you completely missed the point. Of COURSE Rand didn't plan this out. I ALREADY SAID THAT. Going to Shadar Logoth was Sammael's plan. He had laid multiple traps there, for the purpose of killing Rand. No one is disputing this. I'm not, have not been, and will not ever say that Sammael's death was caused by some brilliant plan executed by Rand al'Thor. As usual, the Dragon got lucky.

 

What I am saying is that if Rand al'Thor doesn't attack Illian, Sammael doesn't get munched by Mashadar. Therefore, the sequence of events leading to Sammael's death was initiated by Rand al'Thor. It didn't go down the way Rand planned. But all of Sammael's actions were in response to Rand's actions. Sammael planned the Shadar Logoth traps because he knew Rand was going to come for him. He went to Shadar Logoth that day because Rand DID come for him. He was standing in that plaza because he was waiting to kill Rand. And he didn't notice Mashadar tumbling down on him, because he was concentrating on Rand. The entire sequence of events initiated with Rand, and Sammael's responses to Rand put him in the situation where he got killed. By Mashadar, yes.

 

We're not disputing the sequence of events, we're disputing the meaning of the word "responsible". I say Rand is responsible for Sammael's death because Rand attacked Illian, an action that ultimately (not directly) caused the death of Sammael. You say Mashadar is responsible, because Mashadar is the force/entity/syrupy mist that actual got to turn Sammael into "toast". Both statements are true, depending on how you define the word "responsible".

 

Now ... who cares? Either way he's toast and not coming back.