Mat's luck is the Dark One's

[cmsnaith]

I have no idea where Mat got his luck, I always just assumed it was one of his "special powers" as a Ta'veren, like Rand channeling, and Perrin's Wolfbrother-ness. A simple objection might be, well he didn't always have it.

 

I don't think that's quite true. I seem to recall Mat thinking to himself one time or other, something along the lines of "he'd always been lucky, but never anything like this." Or something to that effect.

 

Also, consider that Rand's channeling, being in the nature of channeling, didn't really develop until he'd reached a certain age. Likewise, Perrin's wolfishness didn't develop until a certain point. Likewise, might we consider the same to be true of Mat.

 

Then there's the whole question of RJ's cryptic statement. "...in a way it's true." In a way. What way? Is it directly related to the DO, or is it true because luck shares the same characteristics as the DO's? Is it true in an actual sense, or an analogous sense?

 

The way I've generally looked at it is this: The DO is a being of chaos, anarchy and destruction. The Creator and/or the Pattern is a being of order, law and creation. Luck has to do with randomness. The more luck enters into the equation, the less control there is of the situation. Therefore, within a construct of rules and law, there is order in probabilities. Certain outcomes have a higher probability of occuring due to the order of causes and effects. However, within a construct of chaos and anarchy, every outcome has an equal chance of occurring, as the rules of causes and effects are thrown out the window. Thus, chaos transplanted into an ordered system results in even the most unlikely outcomes to occur much more frequently than they should.

 

Yet, there is a suggestion of control over luck, when speaking of the DO. That is, if one has the DO's own luck, they are more likely to have outcomes that suit their desires or needs occur more frequently than otherwise. Or perhaps, the DO is considered to have "good luck" in this sense (that outcomes occur in his favor more often than seems probable) because of his very nature. That is, his goals are disorder and destruction of the Creator's creation, and his presense, due to his very nature, causes disorder and destruction, therefore his ends are met merely by being what he is.

 

But what about Mat? Well, we know he's Ta'veren. We also know that just being Ta'veren causes things to go in your way in general, and unlikely happenings happen in your presence. This is strongly evidenced throughout the story. Yet, the reason for this is entirely different than for the DO. For Ta'veren, unusual things happen because the Pattern is being bent around the Ta'veren, and this happens because the Pattern needs to have certain outcomes occur in order to ensure its survival. The "luck" of the Ta'veren is there to ensure order is maintained overall, while the luck of the DO is there to ensure chaos.

 

But Mat's luck is more localized. It works specifically to HIS favor. In this sense, it resembles the luck of the DO more than the luck of the Pattern. But is this the resemblance RJ is talking about? I'm not convinced it is.

 

(By the way, I'm just exploring this out as I go)

 

I think it would be good to further consider Mat as a Ta'veren. It seems to be the case that whent he Pattern reincarnates a person, that soul has the same characteristics as its previous reincarnations. Rand is the Dragon, that is who he is in every reincarnation. He's always a channeler as well. Birgitte and Gaidal Cain are always heroic people, who use similar weapons, and have similar tastes in each reincarnation. We don't really know anything about Perrin. I find this unusual, given that he's a wolfbrother. One of the characteristics of wolves is that they remember their past lives. Of all the people who remember their past lives, I'm surprised Perrin isn't one of them. We actually haven't been given any kind of inkling about this. I wonder if maybe it's because his last reincarnation was so long ago that the memory of it is lost even to him. The wolves themselves said the last time men ran with wolves was in an age even before the AoL. So, we don't really know what characteristics belonging to Perrin we also part of his previous incarnations.

 

But the question is of Mat. If luck is an essential part of him, we would have evidence of this from his previous lives. Yet, as far as I can remember, we don't. We do know that he was a great military leader in every one of his past lives, but I don't remember any reference to him being particularly lucky in his previous lives. This might suggest that his luck is indeed NOT inherent to him, and that it was given to him somehow in this incarnation. However, there is reference to his luck being related to battle. That is, he is said to have battle luck. If this is true, then perhaps his excellence as a military leader and strategist in previous lives was due in part to uncanny luck. This might suggest that his luck IS inherent to him.

 

If, however, his luck is not natural to him, what might account for it? Well, there's the obvious major event of the SL dagger. However, I'm not convinced that this is the source of his luck. There's no evidence, that I can recall, that suggests the dagger would bring luck. Luck isn't associated with SL the way it is the DO, so I don't see how possession of/by the dagger would produce this effect. In fact, Mat's luck appears to have been increased just after he's healed of its effects.

 

I have seen it suggested that it might be the result of the FINNs. To me, this doesn't follow. He first began to see his luck in action before he went to the FINNs.

 

Could it have been something done to him by one of the Forsaken? Again, I don't see the evidence. First, why would the Forsaken want to give a Ta'veren, dedicated to the Light, luck? This would seem counter-productive. Second, why would they do this to Mat, and to nobody else? Why not to one of the Forsaken? I haven't seen any evidence that this has been done to any of the Forsaken. Perhaps it was accidental? Again, I haven't seen any concrete evidence to reinforce this position.

 

This leads me back to the luck being inherent to Mat. I know this is by no means an authority on the matter, but Wikipedia states that Mat is the incarnation of Luck. If this were actually true, it would fit with RJ's statement that Mat's luck is like the Dark One's, in a way. If Mat is the incarnation of luck, which is to say that Mat IS luck, then Mat's luck is like the Dark One's in that the nature of the Dark One is inherently lucky. The difference is, Mat's luck is the Luck of the Light, that Pattern's version of Luck.

 

Consider this: Ta'veren have luck, but in a balanced way. Wherever Rand goes, people are extremely lucky, both in a good way and a bad way, as well as in neutral ways. A man might slip and fall off a 3-storey building and be perfectly okay, or a man might slip while walking and die, or a coin might land on its edge 10 times in a row. There is good luck, bad luck and neutral luck. The Dark One's luck will always be bad luck. He will constantly cause the most improbable occurance to take place, but it will always be the worst occurance imaginable. As Rand was on the edge of falling to the Shadow, the luck that occurred in his presence was almost always bad. Now that he's on the Light side of that edge, the luck his presence causes is almost always going to be good.

 

Mat's luck is always good. Whether it's what Mat wants or not, it's always to his favor. His army always succeeds, even against impossible odds. His luck is like the Dark One's in that it is not balanced, it's always to the good, while the Dark One's is always to the bad. Any regular Ta'veren is balanced, between good and bad. His luck is also stronger than any other's (except the DO's).

 

It makes sense too. Against a being of purely bad luck, the Pattern needed to spin out a being of purely good luck. Likewise, against a being of destruction, the Pattern needed to spin out a being of creation: Perrin. And against a being of the True Power, the Pattern needed to spin out the most powerful being of the One Power: Rand, the Dragon.

 

So, I guess my answer to where Mat gets his luck? From nowhere. He is the source of his luck.

[mackoY-kun]

Haha too long, I didn't read all that.

 

@search: put mat inside two " with a space; "mat " that will make it a four letter entry.

[Mr Ares]

I have no idea where Mat got his luck, I always just assumed it was one of his "special powers" as a Ta'veren, like Rand channeling, and Perrin's Wolfbrother-ness. A simple objection might be, well he didn't always have it.

 

I think it would be good to further consider Mat as a Ta'veren. It seems to be the case that whent he Pattern reincarnates a person, that soul has the same characteristics as its previous reincarnations. Rand is the Dragon, that is who he is in every reincarnation. He's always a channeler as well...

 

But the question is of Mat. If luck is an essential part of him, we would have evidence of this from his previous lives. Yet, as far as I can remember, we don't. We do know that he was a great military leader in every one of his past lives, but I don't remember any reference to him being particularly lucky in his previous lives.

 

If, however, his luck is not natural to him, what might account for it? Well, there's the obvious major event of the SL dagger. However, I'm not convinced that this is the source of his luck. There's no evidence, that I can recall, that suggests the dagger would bring luck. Luck isn't associated with SL the way it is the DO, so I don't see how possession of/by the dagger would produce this effect. In fact, Mat's luck appears to have been increased just after he's healed of its effects.

Just to respond to a few things you said, firstly it should be noted that ta'veren don't have special powers beyond being ta'veren. Someone with special powers might be made a ta'veren, but the two things aren't really connected. Secondly, Rand is not the Dragon in every incarnation (RJ has said a smuch, I believe), nor is he a channeler in every incarnation (as channeling doesn't exist in every Age, if ever the Dragon was incarnated in a non-channeling Age, he would be a non-channeler). Mat's memories don't come from his past lives, they come from people who have visited the Finns. The one exception is an isolated event in TDR, but whether this is an Old Blood memory or a past life memory is arguable. So we have no idea whether he was a general in all (or even any) of his past lives, nor if he was noted as particularly lucky in any of them. As to the Shadar Logoth dagger (which is my preferred theory), the first point is timing - Mat becomes ta'veren a few weeks before leaving the TR. He was always lucky, but his luck is noted to increase after he picks up the dagger. It is noted to increase again after his Healing. So, two changes in his luck, both relating to the dagger. I'd say that's fair evidence that his luck does relate in some way to the dagger.

 

Mat being the source of his own luck is a little far fetched for my liking, but an interesting post all the same.

[FarShainMael]

If his luck is somehow directly related to the dagger, I would expect it to diminish when he was forcibly separated from it.

 

However.. In TGS27, one of Mat's 'donated' memories reminds him of aridhol / SL, and that in turn reminds him of the dagger:

 

Mat hadn't felt the pull of the ruby dagger in a very long time. He was nearly beginning to forget what it had been like to be tied to it, if it was possible to forget such a thing. But sometimes he remembered that ruby, red like his own blood. And the old lust, the old desire, would seep into him again..

 

So he hasn't really been separated from it.

 

The only problem, of course, is that the ruby dagger is not the DO's, but SL's, which is opposed to the DO. And RJ said it was the DO'ss luck 'in a way'.

[Knoell]

 

Then there's the whole question of RJ's cryptic statement. "...in a way it's true." In a way. What way? Is it directly related to the DO, or is it true because luck shares the same characteristics as the DO's? Is it true in an actual sense, or an analogous sense?

 

 

This. I don't think RJ's statement exactly confirms what you are all trying to make it confirm. "In a way" could mean anything.

[Never]

I am kinda disappointed that RJ said this has nothing to do with Lanfear. I mean, it would be the only probable mechanism I can see, as the pattern and the Shadar Logoth-dagger, which has been ruled out. If it's the Dark One's own luck, and it did not stem from Lanfear, then it would seem to come from the only other Forsaken Mat had met at the time, Ishamael. If so, it's probably related to the TP in some way, but I can't see anything that would lead to Mat being affected by something like this and not the other two ta'veren. If it's not related to Ishamael, then it seems to me it will either be left unexplained, which would be a shame for such an important mechanism, or be some kind of Deus ex Machina-explanation.

[Leyrann]

I totally forget what a Deus ex Machina was. Can someone explain it too me?

[Never]

To my understanding, it's a previously unexplained plot convenience that changes the outcome of a climatic scene. Like if Rand won the last battle using the power of love that burned the DO at a touch, without it previously being mentioned or hinted at.

[UGAShadow]

He says "in a way its true."

 

 

That to me says it was a accident that the forces of evil didn't mean to have happen to him. Maybe Fain did it to him in the dungeons in tGH.

[Lisa Campbell]

I've just had a scary thought...

 

What if Mat gave up half the light of the world (which we all take to being one of his eyes in the TofG) but was actually half his luck which was the DO's that the DO now has back? Like I said... 50/50, scary.

[mackoY-kun]

I've just had a scary thought...

 

What if Mat gave up half the light of the world (which we all take to being one of his eyes in the TofG) but was actually half his luck which was the DO's that the DO now has back? Like I said... 50/50, scary.

 

Haha! that's impossible, there are three arrows pointing there. Finn answer, Egwene' dream and Mins viewing. And then there's the Odin parallel.

 

I think people might have missed what I said; if you're looking for "Mat" "Luck" threads, enter;

"mat " luck

'mat' enclosed by two commas (")with a space. (what's that called anyway? I'mnot quite sure is it's called comma or something else) This also works for any three letter word searches.

[FarShainMael]

I just turned up this passage in EotW38:

 

"Blacksmith, perhaps the walls have weakened enough for the DO himself to touch events. Not with a free hand, or we'd be done already, but maybe tiny shiftings in the threads. A chance turning of one corner instead of another, a chance meeting, a chance word, or what seems lke chance, and they could be so far under the Shadow not even Moiraine could bring them back."

[Leyrann]

But that doesn't look like he's giving a ta'veren his Luck...

[FarShainMael]

He does have the ability to manipulate chance, and that's what luck is.

[Dreggs Morlock]

I agree with Mr Ares that being ta'veren doesn't necessarily give you extra power, but I do think Jordan decided that the three ta'veren in this book would have a unique power anyway. Considering that Perrin has the wolf thing, and Rand is the DR and a channeler, what does Matt have that is not given to him from the Finns? Luck seems to be the answer; luck that was crucial for him to have in order to survive the rescue in the ToG. It seems that the Creator in these book thinks ahead, and insures that His main players have what they need.

 

What I find interesting, though, is how did Jordan view the Dark One and what is his "luck"? Is it a tangible thing for the Dark One to lose, or just an expression? If we knew what Jordan's attitude was in regards to how luck and the Dark One are .. joined?(I can't think of the right word to describe what I'm trying to say, darn it)...then we might have a better idea of what Jordan meant when he answered that question.

[Hadilmir]

It seems that the Creator in these book thinks ahead, and insures that His main players have what they need.

Stop bloody saying that and read my signature!

 

(I'm not actually mad, but yelling seems a convincing way to educate people )

[dwn]

"The Dark One's Luck" is likely just an in-world take on "The Devil's Own Luck", and not meant to imply that Mat's luck actually comes from the Dark One.

 

-- dwn

[Dreggs Morlock]

It seems that the Creator in these book thinks ahead, and insures that His main players have what they need.

Stop bloody saying that and read my signature!

 

(I'm not actually mad, but yelling seems a convincing way to educate people )

Replace "creator" with "The Pattern" if this bothers you. In Randland, there IS a force that creators avatars of good; how else were things like the Horn of Valere and ta'veren created? I really wonder if that one statement from Jordan was said to stop people from looking for the polar opposite of the dark one...

[Hadilmir]

Replace "creator" with "The Pattern" if this bothers you. In Randland, there IS a force that creators avatars of good; how else were things like the Horn of Valere and ta'veren created? I really wonder if that one statement from Jordan was said to stop people from looking for the polar opposite of the dark one...

The point was for you to be the one replacing "Creator" with "Pattern", not me.

 

I also disagree on the second part, but that's to lengthy and off-topic for this thread.

 

There's a chance your wonderings are right; but no matter what RJ's intentions may have been, it certainly didn't get the message across if you go by the number of theories directly contradicting it

[Lacanos]

"The Dark One's Luck" is likely just an in-world take on "The Devil's Own Luck", and not meant to imply that Mat's luck actually comes from the Dark One.

 

-- dwn

Sigh.

Your very unique insight that hasn't been raised and subsequently dealt with before in this thread is both new and interesting.

With such an obvious point, do you seriously think, even without reading the thread, that it wouldn't have been considered and dealt with?

 

The fact is, RJ distinctly makes the point that Mat's luck "IS the Dark One's". We're now trying to understand what that means. That quote seems to imply it's actually got some connection to the Dark One in how it came to be.

[dwn]

"The Dark One's Luck" is likely just an in-world take on "The Devil's Own Luck", and not meant to imply that Mat's luck actually comes from the Dark One.

 

-- dwn

Sigh.

Your very unique insight that hasn't been raised and subsequently dealt with before in this thread is both new and interesting.

With such an obvious point, do you seriously think, even without reading the thread, that it wouldn't have been considered and dealt with?

 

The fact is, RJ distinctly makes the point that Mat's luck "IS the Dark One's". We're now trying to understand what that means. That quote seems to imply it's actually got some connection to the Dark One in how it came to be.

 

My apologies to Tamia Sedai for overlooking her post. It doesn't change the fact that the RJ quote is vague (and likely tongue-in-cheek). Mat has the Dark One's luck in the same way that someone in our world has the Devil's luck: through the power of hyperbole.

 

'Luckiness'--i.e. the bending of the pattern to influence the outcome of a random event--is apparently a known effect/Talent in WoT. We're even shown a ter'angreal that produces it. "The Dark One's Luck", however, is still just a saying.

 

-- dwn

[Lacanos]

"The Dark One's Luck" is likely just an in-world take on "The Devil's Own Luck", and not meant to imply that Mat's luck actually comes from the Dark One.

 

-- dwn

Sigh.

Your very unique insight that hasn't been raised and subsequently dealt with before in this thread is both new and interesting.

With such an obvious point, do you seriously think, even without reading the thread, that it wouldn't have been considered and dealt with?

 

The fact is, RJ distinctly makes the point that Mat's luck "IS the Dark One's". We're now trying to understand what that means. That quote seems to imply it's actually got some connection to the Dark One in how it came to be.

 

My apologies to Tamia Sedai for overlooking her post. It doesn't change the fact that the RJ quote is vague (and likely tongue-in-cheek). Mat has the Dark One's luck in the same way that someone in our world has the Devil's luck: through the power of hyperbole.

 

'Luckiness'--i.e. the bending of the pattern to influence the outcome of a random event--is apparently a known effect/Talent in WoT. We're even shown a ter'angreal that produces it. "The Dark One's Luck", however, is still just a saying.

 

-- dwn

 

I really don't see how you can simply dismiss the idea that RJ gave us as "vague". In some way, Mat "has" the Dark One's luck.

When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true.

That seems pretty definite to me. It's not just a saying in his case.

[dwn]

I really don't see how you can simply dismiss the idea that RJ gave us as "vague". In some way, Mat "has" the Dark One's luck.

When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true.

That seems pretty definite to me. It's not just a saying in his case.

 

"When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck [...] in a way it is true." Like I said above, it's true in the same way someone in our world can have the Devil's Own Luck--through hyperbole. Someone saying that doesn't literally mean that Mat has gained supernatural power from the Dark One.

 

-- dwn

[Lacanos]

I really don't see how you can simply dismiss the idea that RJ gave us as "vague". In some way, Mat "has" the Dark One's luck.

When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true.

That seems pretty definite to me. It's not just a saying in his case.

 

"When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck [...] in a way it is true." Like I said above, it's true in the same way someone in our world can have the Devil's Own Luck--through hyperbole. Someone saying that doesn't literally mean that Mat has gained supernatural power from the Dark One.

 

-- dwn

Seriously, no. If it's just hyperbole, it isn't true (by definition). The whole point RJ is making here is that it ISN'T just a saying.

[Dreggs Morlock]

There is a lot of hope in this thread. With Jordan, the only thing certain was nothing he said could be taken as a certainty.

 

As far as the creator thing, Morraine has make a living saying, "As the pattern weaves." I do not mind changing "creator" to "pattern", as it matters not one bit to the POINT of my comment, which seems to have been trampled by my utterance of the word "creator". My apologies, I did not mean to frustrate purists who don't want to see that word used as any explanation of ANYTHING. Sooo....

 

I agree with Mr Ares that being ta'veren doesn't necessarily give you extra power, but I do think Jordan decided that the three ta'veren in this book would have a unique power anyway. Considering that Perrin has the wolf thing, and Rand is the DR and a channeler, what does Matt have that is not given to him from the Finns? Luck seems to be the answer; luck that was crucial for him to have in order to survive the rescue in the ToG. It seems that the Creator the Pattern in these book thinks ahead, and insures that His the main players have what they need.

 

What I find interesting, though, is how did Jordan view the Dark One and what is his "luck"? Is it a tangible thing for the Dark One to lose, or just an expression? If we knew what Jordan's attitude was in regards to how luck and the Dark One are .. joined?(I can't think of the right word to describe what I'm trying to say, darn it)...then we might have a better idea of what Jordan meant when he answered that question.

 

No opinions?