Ta'veren and the Shadow

[cmsnaith]

I've recently been thinking of an interesting connection. It is the connection each Ta'veren character (Rand, Mat and Perrin) have to the Shadow in the eyes of the average Randlander.

 

Throughout the entire series, normal Randladers, in their interactions with the Ta'veren, often connect them to the Shadow. I had not really noticed it before, but the more I think about it, the clearer it becomes.

 

The easiest example is Rand. He is the Dragon Reborn. For centuries, the Dragon's Fang has been posted on peoples' doors as a sign of the DO, an indication that a DF lives there. All male Aes Sedai are connected to the Shadow through the Taint. In particular, the DR has always had a place of fear in peoples' minds, as he is connected with world breaking, and death. Indeed, Rand personifies this connection more than any other throughout the series. It is in his connection to Moridin. It is in his black aura (now gone). It is through his channeling of the True Power. It is in his insanity. During his dark times, Rand even affected the world about him in such a way that Dark things happened in his presence. Vermin overwhelmed foodstocks in his presence.

 

But what about the other Ta'veren?

 

Consider Perrin. Wolves, at least in the minds of the average Randlander, have always been connected to the Shadow. They are considered servants of the Dark. This is only true of Darkhounds, of course, but the people of Randland don't really understand this. So, throughout the series, people continually take Perrin for a DF. This is especially true of the Children of the Light. They ravage his homeland for it. Yet, even with Perrin, it isn't merely peoples' perceptions of him that confirm this connection. Like Rand, during Perrin's darker moments (while Faile was imprisoned by the Shaido), vermin abounded in his presence. So much so, that people even fell and became beetles before him (I had always assumed this was because of Rand, but in ToM, it seemed that proximity increased this effect, and when that one man fell in front of Perrin and turned to beetles, Rand was on the other side of the continent. So now, I believe Perrin also has this effect).

 

And then there's Mat. Mat, Mat, Mat. The single most constant thread connecting him to the Dark One is his luck. Almost everyone he gambles with comments on it, saying he has the Dark One's own luck. Is there anything else, though? Yes indeed there is! Consider who he's married to: Fortuona, Empress of the Seanchan Empire. And what is the imperial sigil? Ravens. Also a symbol for the DO. Mat's simple connection to the Seanchan indicates a connection to the DO. Yet it is not simple. It is profound. He's wed to the leader of the whole Empire, the Daughter of the Nine Moons (speaking of which, does anyone know what this is in reference to? What are the Nine Moons?). He is wed to the Raven. The metaphorical connection aught to be significant. Yet there is, peculiarly enough, rarely any mention of vermin in Mat's story. Either this is because he doesn't have the same kind of effect as the other Ta'veren do, or he's simply not been in such dark places as they have.

 

Anyway. I just wanted to open this topic up for discussion. Discuss. :)

[FarShainMael]

Re the nine Moons: someone (I forget who) suggested that this may have something to do with the nine months of pregnancy. If so, I detect Ishy's warped sense of humour at work, as with the choice of ravens as the Imperial sigil:

 

Ishy thinking: Hmm. What shall I call this new ruling body that would sound nice and mysterious?.. ah yes.. and what shall I choose as a sigil? Of course.. These poor idiots won't understand. They will never know that they are called Offspring of the Dark..

 

Of course, these three attributes - Dragon's fang, wolves, luck/ravens - aren't evil of themselves. They have merely acquired evil connotations, with - I am certain - the active assistance of the Shadow. This is certainly the case with the male half of the Power. Furthermore, it may well be in anticipation of the coming in each Turning of the three ta'veren who will face and probably defeat the Dark One.

[yoniy0]

FSM, I'd wager you skipped a few steps here. Before we discuss the metaphorical meaning of the 'Nine Moons', we should note the the empress's court in Seandar is called 'The Court of the Nine Moons' and the heir to the Crystal Throne 'the Daughter of the Nine Moons'. Hence, the 'Nine Moons' is probably a reference to the empress and the empire she embodies.

 

One other thing regarding the beetles. Moiraine told us that ta'veren attract bubbles of evil back in TSR. That doesn't mean they're responsible for them, though.

 

Finally, RJ one confirmed that in a way, Mat's luck is the DO's. I don't know what he meant by that.

[FarShainMael]

FSM, I'd wager you skipped a few steps here. Before we discuss the metaphorical meaning of the 'Nine Moons', we should note the the empress's court in Seandar is called 'The Court of the Nine Moons' and the heir to the Crystal Throne 'the Daughter of the Nine Moons'. Hence, the 'Nine Moons' is probably a reference to the empress and the empire she embodies.

 

Sorry, should have clarified. By 'ruling body' in Ishy's conjectured musings, I did indeed mean the Empress's court, and suggesting a possible reason for it being called 'the court of the Nine Moons'. I should slow down a bit!

[Dream]

FSM, I'd wager you skipped a few steps here. Before we discuss the metaphorical meaning of the 'Nine Moons', we should note the the empress's court in Seandar is called 'The Court of the Nine Moons' and the heir to the Crystal Throne 'the Daughter of the Nine Moons'. Hence, the 'Nine Moons' is probably a reference to the empress and the empire she embodies.

 

Sorry, should have clarified. By 'ruling body' in Ishy's conjectured musings, I did indeed mean the Empress's court, and suggesting a possible reason for it being called 'the court of the Nine Moons'. I should slow down a bit!

Works for me. Even if this isn't Ishamael's sense of humour at work, it sounds like one of those name jokes RJ would pull. Do we have any actual information on the origin of "nine moons".

[Joshua Hendrickson]

This is not so much off topic as tangential to it, but I've been wanting to say this for some time now, and here seems like the best place to do it.

 

The issue of ta'veren is obviously important in the grand scheme of Jordan's world. However, as a plot device, it strikes me all too often as an excuse for coincidence. Also, it doesn't seem to be limited to Rand, Mat, and Perrin. Frankly, Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne--and sometimes Min and many others--seem to be unacknowledged ta'veren, given how often events just seem to fall into place around them. I suppose one could say that Rand's ta'veren effect touches them in particular even at a distance, but that just confirms for me that the whole concept is Jordan's way of tying everything together into a neat package.

 

Jordan once said something that was very interesting to me as a fellow writer, to the effect that the characters in WOT behave always exactly as he wants them to, that he is God of his world. Okay, fine--that's certainly one way of going about the act of creating fiction. But I know from my own experience, and from the confessions of many other novelists, that his kind of iron control isn't common, and is rarely the best strategy. Characters in fiction have a tendency to come into their own life, to make their own decisions, as it were. Yes, writers are the Gods of their worlds, but unless we offer our creations some degree of "free will," we risk our creation ending up dead on the page. Jordan's rigid control, I think, is what causes the series in its second half to descend into tedium--he worked too hard to match all of his disparate elements up into his grand scheme, rather than letting it take its own shape organically. In short, for all its many virtues, WOT is at heart more a contrivance than a dream. I wonder how much of his original conception of WOT came from his own subconscious, or surprised him. I suspect very little.

[FarShainMael]

I know what you mean about characters coming alive. I've had a go at writing fiction myself (I am currently working on a story which would only see the light of day if I can overcome the copyright problems of 'borrowing' people and a plot denouement from a text adventure computer game) and although I started at the end and worked backwards, the plot is, in many ways, shaping itself!

[Lacanos]

So much so, that people even fell and became beetles before him (I had always assumed this was because of Rand, but in ToM, it seemed that proximity increased this effect, and when that one man fell in front of Perrin and turned to beetles, Rand was on the other side of the continent. So now, I believe Perrin also has this effect).

 

Try bubble of evil. Moiraine indicated that Ta'veren are more likely to attract bubbles than other people.

 

 

EDIT:

And everything, certainly everyone of power, has a connection to the shadow in the eyes of someone else. Usually the whitecloaks. :D

[cmsnaith]

I know everyone keeps saying "bubble of evil," but I'm sorry, I just don't see it that way.

[yoniy0]

I know everyone keeps saying "bubble of evil," but I'm sorry, I just don't see it that way.

No need to apologize. Other effects that we might've previously put down to the DO's influence, such as food spoilage, were shown to be (at least partly) due to Rand's Fisher-King-y nature. The same might be true of the beetle-effect, though I personally don't think so.

[Rcurran]

@Joshua

 

The post you made was possibly articulated in a way that seemed like you were pointing out the obvious to the rest of us, that it is convenient for the author, when the main point you were making was lost.

 

I'm thinking you were trying to suggest that had Jordan let his character have less plot-gravity, so to speak, then a lot of organic plot arcs would have presented themselves and we would have a different book. I think you are suggesting that in a smaller book with less plot threads that the literary device [taveren] would help close plot lines yet in a book of this scale the device becomes a burden as there is a need to make use of it when otherwise some plot lines would have wrapped themselves up more organically, concisely and been a better read?

 

If so, good point, but I disagree. Also either way you look at it a tangent like this is off topic and the term tangent is a perfect way to describe going off topic!!